[New UMS Map] Phantom Ultimate - Page 3
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On September 26 2007 14:10 paper wrote: Even 1v3 is difficult with some extra money -__- Cover-blow is lame and unnecessary until the phantom has had ample time to make anything =_= He understated the amount of resources you get as phantom. I've never lost a 1v5 as phantom by just rushing everyone. You get mins AND gas, so zerg can immediately lay down a few hatches and pool and speedling a couple then muta the rest, toss can zeal a couple then dt/sair rush everyone else, and terran can pump as much mnm as your fingers allow. If it's 1v6 or 1v7 I mass expand and wait until it's down to 1v3 (never played with cover timer). If I'm not phantom and no one is obviously stronger, I kill anyone who sucks balls first. Many phantoms try to act super-newb, thinking they'll be safe, but logically you don't really lose anything by killing them. If they ARE the phantom you won, and if they aren't, you lost an ally that wouldn't help anyway. Also CharlieMurphy's strat doesn't work from what I've seen either: I kill anyone who unvisions or attacks anything of mine, regardless of whether they're the phantom or not. If people pick sides, they pick my side, because he incited the fighting, and looks more like the phantom. It makes the game go faster if I'm zerg, since I stick a lord in everyone's base. Logically, they have no reason to attack it unless they are the phantom, because I already have their vision. The strategies would be completely different with cover timer. Seven minutes seems too short to me, as it basically forces the immediate rush. You'd be lucky if 1 person was dead by then, so it's basically a 1v7 every game even if you don't rush. You could have a choice at the beginning: no cover timer, 7 minute cover timer, and 15 minute cover timer. I think that would appease most everyone. Also, the host has to get to choose. All the ones I've seen make the chooser random, and he always picks the wrong thing (ie not what the hosts wanted), and usually people leave. Balancing the hunters map would be a very good idea, not just for phantom. No shared chokes should be priority #1, then either make no protected or ALL protected tankable mains (from cliff or between mins on 6 and 9), then no tankable or all tankable expos. | ||
0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
But that's it. Cover blow will not be removed and there won't be an option either. I've played a lot of Phantom games without cover blow, and in 90% of all the games (I'm not exaggerating) the Phantom did absolutely nothing (remember that it says "You are the Phantom - KILL THEM ALL!"). It was extremely boring. Often, the phantom just died like any other regular player when it was attacked (no time to get a big army). And sometimes I was attacked by noobs who can't macro and think it's me. Also, most good players gives a shit about that psychology crap and just starts attacking directly because they know that they have the biggest advantage right at the start. But because Phantom BGH gives the Phantom too much money, it's imbalanced if the phantom rushes. I have never lost a game on Phantom BGH when I was the phantom. But on Phantom Ultimate it's quite hard. It takes skill to bring down 7 players, as well as it takes skill for the team to bring down a very strong phantom. It's purely skill-based and an intense battle. In short: this is a competitive map. If you want to toy around with other players, play any of the other Phantom maps. | ||
useLess
United States4781 Posts
Its just 7v1 Insane Comp, but with a player in place of the comp. And not even close to insane, since the "phantom" has the same amount of time as the other players. You cant mass shit, cuz then its obvious youre the phantom. You cant sit around, cuz then youre revealed as the phantom. Youre removing the entire concept of the map. | ||
CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On September 26 2007 14:35 LonelyMargarita wrote: He understated the amount of resources you get as phantom. I've never lost a 1v5 as phantom by just rushing everyone. You get mins AND gas, so zerg can immediately lay down a few hatches and pool and speedling a couple then muta the rest, toss can zeal a couple then dt/sair rush everyone else, and terran can pump as much mnm as your fingers allow. If it's 1v6 or 1v7 I mass expand and wait until it's down to 1v3 (never played with cover timer). If I'm not phantom and no one is obviously stronger, I kill anyone who sucks balls first. Many phantoms try to act super-newb, thinking they'll be safe, but logically you don't really lose anything by killing them. If they ARE the phantom you won, and if they aren't, you lost an ally that wouldn't help anyway. Also CharlieMurphy's strat doesn't work from what I've seen either: I kill anyone who unvisions or attacks anything of mine, regardless of whether they're the phantom or not. If people pick sides, they pick my side, because he incited the fighting, and looks more like the phantom. It makes the game go faster if I'm zerg, since I stick a lord in everyone's base. Logically, they have no reason to attack it unless they are the phantom, because I already have their vision. The strategies would be completely different with cover timer. Seven minutes seems too short to me, as it basically forces the immediate rush. You'd be lucky if 1 person was dead by then, so it's basically a 1v7 every game even if you don't rush. You could have a choice at the beginning: no cover timer, 7 minute cover timer, and 15 minute cover timer. I think that would appease most everyone. Also, the host has to get to choose. All the ones I've seen make the chooser random, and he always picks the wrong thing (ie not what the hosts wanted), and usually people leave. Balancing the hunters map would be a very good idea, not just for phantom. No shared chokes should be priority #1, then either make no protected or ALL protected tankable mains (from cliff or between mins on 6 and 9), then no tankable or all tankable expos. I don't die that easily. You trying to kill me opens your ass up for the phantom to rape you. Besides thats one of the goals of my strat, to induce action. | ||
Scorpion
United States1974 Posts
It's like a REALLY early 4pool, and you can even throw in speed once you make 6 lings. Also, if you're the phantom, it's must easier since you've got pool up and speed researching ;D | ||
comabreaded
United States2166 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Tadzio
3340 Posts
1) Do away with the reveal, or at least make it an option. And if you keep it, extend it to at least 10 minutes so a phantom can build up to 200/200 and have the infrastructure to rebuild units lost once everyone attacks him. 2) I think all players should start with ally but without vision of any of the other players. In the FMP and BGH phantoms, the reason non-phantoms get attacked is because people with unlimited resources have some pretty funky build orders, and its often difficult to tell who the phantom is just by looking at what people are doing-- this doesn't hold true in low money, so get rid of vision. The "might" indicator alone is a pretty good way to spot a phantom that is rushing. If a phantom chooses to lay low, his base should be physically scouted, rather than giving non-phantoms free scout. If people want to vision others that they've decided are "safe" later in the game, thats fine, but vision shouldn't be forced. Imo, those two things would make the map pretty darn fun as a low money map. | ||
intotherainx
United States504 Posts
On September 27 2007 13:04 Tadzio00 wrote: The forced reveal is a bad idea and destroys the concept of phantom. Low money makes it difficult to hide that you're the phantom as well. Some suggestions to make it more enjoyable for the phantom and for low money: 1) Do away with the reveal, or at least make it an option. And if you keep it, extend it to at least 10 minutes so a phantom can build up to 200/200 and have the infrastructure to rebuild units lost once everyone attacks him. 2) I think all players should start with ally but without vision of any of the other players. In the FMP and BGH phantoms, the reason non-phantoms get attacked is because people with unlimited resources have some pretty funky build orders, and its often difficult to tell who the phantom is just by looking at what people are doing-- this doesn't hold true in low money, so get rid of vision. The "might" indicator alone is a pretty good way to spot a phantom that is rushing. If a phantom chooses to lay low, his base should be physically scouted, rather than giving non-phantoms free scout. If people want to vision others that they've decided are "safe" later in the game, thats fine, but vision shouldn't be forced. Imo, those two things would make the map pretty darn fun as a low money map. this is the only solution besides making the 7-minute an option... | ||
Kacas
Brazil3143 Posts
people think u are the phanton start attacking you you die! and after u will see the real phanton killing them! kakaka if its revealed this is not possible =( | ||
Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
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herda
Germany17 Posts
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herda
Germany17 Posts
Thx | ||
herda
Germany17 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
"This is necessary because in Phantom maps without cover blow, the phantom often hides and the game takes 1 hour and people start killing themselves out of boredom. This is not how I think that the game should be played. Instead, it should be an intense battle requiring teamwork from the beginning on. So the phantom has to be offensive right from the start. The longer he waits, the harder it will be for him to win." I disagree. The point of phantom is that he cannot be revealed, by forcing a reveal it takes the fun out of the game. Instead, phantom should be forced to eliminate all other players by a time limit, and the other players will have to survive this time limit. This will force actions. | ||
CruiseR
Poland3998 Posts
On September 25 2007 16:31 0xDEADBEEF wrote: . After 7 minutes game time, he gets revealed to all players (automatic unally + unvision and his location is being displayed at the top left (e.g. "Phantom's base: north-east"). This is necessary because in Phantom maps without cover blow, the phantom often hides and the game takes 1 hour and people start killing themselves out of boredom. This is not how I think that the game should be played. Instead, it should be an intense battle requiring teamwork from the beginning on. So the phantom has to be offensive right from the start. The longer he waits, the harder it will be for him to win. I don't agree with this. with these stipulations it becomes like Xv1 comp who's massing. The hidden info during the whole game makes the game psychological, and then best UMS ever for me. You must make decisions- who is the phantom, try to hurt or kill somebody, make him reveal, accuse and defend others etc. It's better and more fun to take risk even hurting your ally to detect if he's the bad one. And even with some allies already dead, if the game is like 30 minutes already, phantom can be beaten, because the 200/200 limit allowes to. So, without coverblow it makes the best UMS map ever (and psychological, just like The Thing- that's an important aspect), and coverblow makes it like 7v1 comp/w mass money.. EDIT: lol amost the same post evanthebouncy :D | ||
Realpenguin
8253 Posts
On April 03 2008 06:41 evanthebouncy! wrote: Nope, I was never a big fan of phantoms but err "This is necessary because in Phantom maps without cover blow, the phantom often hides and the game takes 1 hour and people start killing themselves out of boredom. This is not how I think that the game should be played. Instead, it should be an intense battle requiring teamwork from the beginning on. So the phantom has to be offensive right from the start. The longer he waits, the harder it will be for him to win." I disagree. The point of phantom is that he cannot be revealed, by forcing a reveal it takes the fun out of the game. Instead, phantom should be forced to eliminate all other players by a time limit, and the other players will have to survive this time limit. This will force actions. That sounds like an awesome idea. 0_o I've always liked Phantom maps (with all the "mindgames" and whatnot), but something always felt missing. The timer idea sounds great. | ||
Boblion
France8043 Posts
Phantom without cover blow is a MAJOR waste of time. The random phantom noob will camp and wait that others people leave the game or kill each others ( yeyayyaya that is a lot of fun -.-) Of course it can be funny if you are the phantom ... Average game last 1 hour and is DULL there is no psychology involved because most of the random people who join the game are noobs or retarded and kill each other randomly. I played a LOT with oxdeadbeef and ichwilldochnur on this version and i think this is the best ever made. Of course with the cover blown timer there is less psychology, but still if you are phantom terran you can let other people take expand and caught them with pant down with a mech build and a mass vult. Btw Z > P > T on this map. If we like this version it is because you need a lot of team play and skill to beat a good phantom ( 5v1 good people is the best ) and because this version is quite balanced ( nevertheless oxdeadbeef zerg phantom isnt ). Vs a good (zerg) phantom you have to contain him with cannons to win. Early game is quite micro intensive. Usually 1 or 2 toss players try to build photon at the expand choke while zergs and terran bring units to give time. I love this version but you have to play it with the right people . edit: and please beef quit bioshock, we need you to mass play again edit2: "Classic" phantom can be fun too but only with a team full of people that you know. Public "classic" phantom suck because the people who join are stupid ( usually ). But as oxdeadbeef said this version here is competitive and cover blown is needed. | ||
ReiKo
Croatia1023 Posts
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