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On September 25 2013 20:36 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 20:30 Nachtwind wrote:DT change because... ...there could be more interesting interactions, such as dodging out of detection range more often Either detection is out or not. The only "dodge" i could think of are scans. If the toss plays dt vs t he either fire and forget or he micro them. In second case he will sometimes dodge. Don´t know why they should get more speed. To be able to do guaranteed damage (like banshees). Sometimes DTs get to mineral lines and manage to kill only couple of SCVs, when It should've killed at least 5-6 considering investment and the risk. Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 20:34 NarutO wrote:On September 25 2013 20:29 saddaromma wrote:On September 25 2013 20:23 NarutO wrote:On September 25 2013 20:18 Plansix wrote:On September 25 2013 20:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 25 2013 19:46 FFW_Rude wrote:
So... 3.375 speed for DT means that the only thing that can catch it (well.. if you are running behind it :p).
Terran
- Reaper
- Hellion
- Medivac with boost
It wil run at the speed of a steam marine.
Zerg
- Zerglings (with speed).
- Zerglings with no speed ON CREEP (well that's not relevent because speed is going down earlier than dt shrine).
- Banespeed on creep
- Speed Roach on creep
- Hydra on creep (not sure as i don't quite understand the LP page for that)
- Ultralisk
- Mutalisk
- Broodlings
Protoss
- Prism with speed
- Phoenix
Same speed
- Dark templar
- Oracle.
So zerg can't complain i think (i'm zerg and hate dt).
DT would be super strong against protoss. Because nothing can catch it basicly
Same for terran. No ?
Also i like the WM nerf but... this seems like you are going to go from OS, 20glings/banes to .. 5. Maybe ?
Seems a bit drastic especially for mutas harass.. but that will make the terrans turret again.
ST will be better that WM. I feel it's kind of overlaping units. No ? For a 1000th times why should you be chasing DTs? you need to scare them off with static defense: P: Cannons. T: PF or WM + turret. Z: Spore+spinecrawler. Yeah, complaining about not being able to catch a harassing unit is weird. Its like protoss complaining that only one unit can catch a muta. Its now officially the blademaster. Windwalk out of there, just perm  Except he can't steal fat creeps and items. I wouldn't mind if they made DT do 100 dmg and run at 5.0 speed, it still sucks vs detection and in straight up fight for its cost. Therefore I don't see point at complaining. Ofc terrans need to be efficient with scans, but how about making some simcity with supply depots, too lazy for that? Thats what Terrans are doing. Sim city with supplies / bunker, turrets in mineral line to surround with workers, but if DTs are as fast as stimmed bio, running out of a scan is already enough damage to make the dt worthwhile. Actually forcing a scan makes it valueable so getting away is huge. Now getting away is pretty easy and not increasing any skill needed. There is no need to buff Protoss in its current state. Yeah, ofc. Naruto TM.
guaranteed dmg.... wow. Just wow. Im gonna try to respond when im done laughing. Possibly tomorrow I would imagine.
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On September 25 2013 20:41 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 20:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 25 2013 19:46 FFW_Rude wrote:
So... 3.375 speed for DT means that the only thing that can catch it (well.. if you are running behind it :p).
Terran
- Reaper
- Hellion
- Medivac with boost
It wil run at the speed of a steam marine.
Zerg
- Zerglings (with speed).
- Zerglings with no speed ON CREEP (well that's not relevent because speed is going down earlier than dt shrine).
- Banespeed on creep
- Speed Roach on creep
- Hydra on creep (not sure as i don't quite understand the LP page for that)
- Ultralisk
- Mutalisk
- Broodlings
Protoss
- Prism with speed
- Phoenix
Same speed
- Dark templar
- Oracle.
So zerg can't complain i think (i'm zerg and hate dt).
DT would be super strong against protoss. Because nothing can catch it basicly
Same for terran. No ?
Also i like the WM nerf but... this seems like you are going to go from OS, 20glings/banes to .. 5. Maybe ?
Seems a bit drastic especially for mutas harass.. but that will make the terrans turret again.
ST will be better that WM. I feel it's kind of overlaping units. No ? For a 1000th times why should you be chasing DTs? you need to scare them off with static defense: P: Cannons. T: PF or WM + turret. Z: Spore+spinecrawler. cause I've never seen DTs (or Zealot + DTs) run into a mineral line and destroy the detection. Just watch how well Elfi and Welmu already use DT's and now imagine if they are as fast as stimmed bio!! Protoss already has the best late game harass with chargelot warp-ins, why are they trying to buff the early game 'all-in' options?
I don't think so. Protoss has no good tool to control the map. Terran has medivac, zerg has zerglings and mutas. Protoss got pylons/warp prisms which are not always ready when needed.
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On September 25 2013 20:49 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 20:41 DusTerr wrote:On September 25 2013 20:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 25 2013 19:46 FFW_Rude wrote:
So... 3.375 speed for DT means that the only thing that can catch it (well.. if you are running behind it :p).
Terran
- Reaper
- Hellion
- Medivac with boost
It wil run at the speed of a steam marine.
Zerg
- Zerglings (with speed).
- Zerglings with no speed ON CREEP (well that's not relevent because speed is going down earlier than dt shrine).
- Banespeed on creep
- Speed Roach on creep
- Hydra on creep (not sure as i don't quite understand the LP page for that)
- Ultralisk
- Mutalisk
- Broodlings
Protoss
- Prism with speed
- Phoenix
Same speed
- Dark templar
- Oracle.
So zerg can't complain i think (i'm zerg and hate dt).
DT would be super strong against protoss. Because nothing can catch it basicly
Same for terran. No ?
Also i like the WM nerf but... this seems like you are going to go from OS, 20glings/banes to .. 5. Maybe ?
Seems a bit drastic especially for mutas harass.. but that will make the terrans turret again.
ST will be better that WM. I feel it's kind of overlaping units. No ? For a 1000th times why should you be chasing DTs? you need to scare them off with static defense: P: Cannons. T: PF or WM + turret. Z: Spore+spinecrawler. cause I've never seen DTs (or Zealot + DTs) run into a mineral line and destroy the detection. Just watch how well Elfi and Welmu already use DT's and now imagine if they are as fast as stimmed bio!! Protoss already has the best late game harass with chargelot warp-ins, why are they trying to buff the early game 'all-in' options? I don't think so. Protoss has no good tool to control the map. Terran has medivac, zerg has zerglings and mutas. Protoss got pylons/warp prisms which are not always ready when needed.
Is this from your personal play or from actually watching high level matches? Because I see charglot (sometimes with a few DTs) warp-in/run-by being game changers in high level play.
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its hilarious how the polls dont reflect the opposition to the mech changes...
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On September 25 2013 18:32 thezanursic wrote:Poll: First impression of Oracle buff? No thumbs (162) Am I the only one who finds it worrisome that 162 of the participants in this poll have no thumbs?!? Poll: TL poll participants missing thumbs:Worries me deeply. (16) 36% No thumbs (15) 33% Don't care. (14) 31% 45 total votes Your vote: TL poll participants missing thumbs: (Vote): Worries me deeply.
(Vote): Don't care.
(Vote): No thumbs
What's a thumb? Is it that stub on my hand?
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On September 25 2013 20:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 20:16 saddaromma wrote:On September 25 2013 19:46 FFW_Rude wrote:
So... 3.375 speed for DT means that the only thing that can catch it (well.. if you are running behind it :p).
Terran
- Reaper
- Hellion
- Medivac with boost
It wil run at the speed of a steam marine.
Zerg
- Zerglings (with speed).
- Zerglings with no speed ON CREEP (well that's not relevent because speed is going down earlier than dt shrine).
- Banespeed on creep
- Speed Roach on creep
- Hydra on creep (not sure as i don't quite understand the LP page for that)
- Ultralisk
- Mutalisk
- Broodlings
Protoss
- Prism with speed
- Phoenix
Same speed
- Dark templar
- Oracle.
So zerg can't complain i think (i'm zerg and hate dt).
DT would be super strong against protoss. Because nothing can catch it basicly
Same for terran. No ?
Also i like the WM nerf but... this seems like you are going to go from OS, 20glings/banes to .. 5. Maybe ?
Seems a bit drastic especially for mutas harass.. but that will make the terrans turret again.
ST will be better that WM. I feel it's kind of overlaping units. No ? For a 1000th times why should you be chasing DTs? you need to scare them off with static defense: P: Cannons. T: PF or WM + turret. Z: Spore+spinecrawler. Yeah, complaining about not being able to catch a harassing unit is weird. Its like protoss complaining that only one unit can catch a muta.
What the hell ? I was just curious about the thing... Where did you see a complain here ? That was not my intention... i wrote a couple pages back that it was quite fast and i wondered about what was faster than a DT... No-one answered so basicly i answered myself... 
Calm dalm people....
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I wish Banshees had 3.x speed. hehe
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Nice.. protoss really needs some buff right now esp vs zerg
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Definately, considering toss is currently most represented in both RO32 and RO16 in WCS EU (huge difference), WCS KR (okay small difference, but still) and RO32 WCS AM (they aren't finished yet with RO32), it is clear that protoss definately needs a buff right now...
And after watching Welmu yesterday I really don't get the idea we need hyperspeed DTs.
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On September 25 2013 23:32 Sissors wrote:
Definately, considering toss is currently most represented in both RO32 and RO16 in WCS EU (huge difference), WCS KR (okay small difference, but still) and RO32 WCS AM (they aren't finished yet with RO32), it is clear that protoss definately needs a buff right now...
And after watching Welmu yesterday I really don't get the idea we need hyperspeed DTs.
Well... you got a lot of groups early with ZZZT or ZZPT so it's kind of normal you will have more protoss. Zerg can't have a good representation if they are all in the same group
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On September 25 2013 14:27 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 13:38 Millet wrote:
Long overdue with the tank buff. I still think they will be worthless in tvp though. Like always, I would like to see them adding a parameter to the siege tanks weapon: +25 damage to shields. As we all know, tanks suck vs protoss, this woukd really bring back tanks in the MU.
Looking att tank vs immortal:
current: 15 shots to kill
Proposed: 9 shots to kill
Widowmine and dt changes are too drastic, as for all other: seems like good changes to me. It wouldn't do any addtl dmg to Immortals due to hardened shields lol. But it would definitely make it more useful vs zealots/stalkers/colossi, especially if there was bonus dmg to the splash, although that might be OP.
Obviously the shots would work like widowmine shots, full shield damage, even against immortals. I guess I should have enclosed that.
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Mech upgrade buff will be very interesting, and coupled with the tank buff could make mech really relevant and not an auto-loss once broodlords pop. Sadly, nerfing widow mines is probably requisite to make a mech play-style even tempting. It will be interesting to see how the mech buffs play against the Tunneling Claws buff.
The DT and Oracle changes are strange to me. To me, the problem with both these units is that they are both very niche and situational. They are VERY good when they work, but when the enemy is prepared for them they are next to useless. I don't think a speed buff or cost change is going fix that. In fact, I think it will only add to the gimmicky feel of these units. Instead, both units need something of added utility to make them more useful along a broader spectrum of situations. A cooldown based channeled stun ability at the expense of uncloaking for DTs or cooldown based shield battery ability on Oracles or...anything that adds a valuable support capability to these units that extends beyond their harassment role. I personally think that the MS-Core is what the Oracle should have essentially been; time warp for economy harassment and army support, a weak air to ground attack, and detection/defensive utility.
Oh well.
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On September 25 2013 23:42 SpaceYeti wrote:
Mech upgrade buff will be very interesting, and coupled with the tank buff could make mech really relevant and not an auto-loss once broodlords pop. Sadly, nerfing widow mines is probably requisite to make a mech play-style even tempting. It will be interesting to see how the mech buffs play against the Tunneling Claws buff.
The DT and Oracle changes are strange to me. To me, the problem with both these units is that they are both very niche and situational. They are VERY good when they work, but when the enemy is prepared for them they are next to useless. I don't think a speed buff or cost change is going fix that. In fact, I think it will only add to the gimmicky feel of these units. Instead, both units need something of added utility to make them more useful along a broader spectrum of situations. A cooldown based channeled stun ability at the expense of uncloaking for DTs or cooldown based shield battery ability on Oracles or...anything that adds a valuable support capability to these units that extends beyond their harassment role. I personally think that the MS-Core is what the Oracle should have essentially been; time warp for economy harassment and army support, a weak air to ground attack, and detection/defensive utility.
Oh well.
Reading your post i don't know why but... having less upgrades to make... would it be possible to see bio to mech transitions during games ? Ok you have lot of barracks and no factory, but sometimes you see transition to sky terran so.. possible ? noN ?
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On September 25 2013 23:42 SpaceYeti wrote:
Mech upgrade buff will be very interesting, and coupled with the tank buff could make mech really relevant and not an auto-loss once broodlords pop. Sadly, nerfing widow mines is probably requisite to make a mech play-style even tempting. It will be interesting to see how the mech buffs play against the Tunneling Claws buff.
The DT and Oracle changes are strange to me. To me, the problem with both these units is that they are both very niche and situational. They are VERY good when they work, but when the enemy is prepared for them they are next to useless. I don't think a speed buff or cost change is going fix that. In fact, I think it will only add to the gimmicky feel of these units. Instead, both units need something of added utility to make them more useful along a broader spectrum of situations. A cooldown based channeled stun ability at the expense of uncloaking for DTs or cooldown based shield battery ability on Oracles or...anything that adds a valuable support capability to these units that extends beyond their harassment role. I personally think that the MS-Core is what the Oracle should have essentially been; time warp for economy harassment and army support, a weak air to ground attack, and detection/defensive utility.
Oh well.
I see the mine nerf as a huge nerf to mech AA (yes, thors are good but expensive and slow - to and on the field). Also, for TvT one of the keys was to check vikings for upgrades to anticipate a BC switch - with upgrades combined this becomes a lot more difficult. I don't really like the direction of the Terran changes...
I think if the WM were to keep it's splash vs air (or get a damage buff vs air) - or the thor get's a buff (one possible solution to both issues could be reducing the gas cost of armories).
I agree with what you say about the Protoss changes.
Overall I really like the direction of the burrow roach buff.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
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Some decent changes but also some pretty thoughtless ones. They should focus more on making the game more exciting and engaging for newer players instead of worrying about balance so much. Players are retiring left and right it's clear the SC2 team at Blizzard needs some kind of management change.
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On September 26 2013 01:18 lolfail9001 wrote:Not sure if serious.
A serious post might have included the number of players representing each race. This is just some misleading shit that says nothing other than 'we need more information'.
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On September 26 2013 01:25 Incubus1993 wrote:
Some decent changes but also some pretty thoughtless ones. They should focus more on making the game more exciting and engaging for newer players instead of worrying about balance so much. Players are retiring left and right it's clear the SC2 team at Blizzard needs some kind of management change.
I'm not sure if retirements are necessarily a result of the excitement or engagement players feel or don't feel. Most of the time a player retires because they simply can't make a good living for the hours they put in. The infrastructure of the pro scene really rewards winners and provides little incentive for non-winner participants. At a grassroots level there aren't enough tournaments or enough worthy prize pools to encourage new people to actually get into the playing aspect of the game.
Making the game more exciting doesn't address anything other than the superficial idea of excitement. The game is pretty exciting already, but also very challenging and mentally taxing. These are not bad qualities, and balance is always important for patching. You can't expect every patch to reinvent the game, but you can expect every patch to change the metagame a little or a lot. Also, excitement and entertainment value are very subjective things that not everyone agrees on. Some people find it more exciting to play long, defensive games, while others prefer aggression and cheesey strategies. They can't all get what they want beyond what they've been given. If you make the cheesey strategies stronger, people who enjoy longer games will kinda fade away as they lose interest in their gameplay experience. On the flip-side, the same applies to buffing defensive strategies. What you have to recognize is that changes to the metagame through balance DIRECTLY impact the viewing and playing experience, and that excitement is a product of enjoyable, close-fought games (for some).
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EPT
