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I know Someothers and I completely ruined the other one. This is my last attempt to try to hold this guide together. Please give constructive cristism/feedback to this guide and i will answer any questions possible. I am sorry for the last Thread, and i hope this one will be better.
For Those Who Don't Know, I am LaStShadOw
UPDATED#2 6-6-07: New info to some strategies / Counter Part . Goodluck ^^. Counter part Includes Openings 1-3 ATM.
I just wrote this...it took about 3 hours thinking it out / editing. I hope you all enjoy!
Author: LaStShadOw
To: Teamliquid.net/Other
I'd like to give much credit to ToT)DaZe( and others who have helped me improve this guide. I hope this will help many Terran's struggling in TvP.
Terran Versus Protoss
In Terran Vs Protoss, I generally tend to find myself opening with many many rush oriented attacks to try to gain myself a lead or put the protoss in a “what do I do” situation. I probably have a range of 7 to 10 builds.
#1.Midas Rush(Fake Double) - Any Map
This is probably my most common rush in TvP. I believe that if controlled properly it is one of the most deadly rushes out there. I favor this rush for many reasons. 1: Its deceptive 2: It hurts the protoss 3: Makes me feel comfortable. So when I make 7 marines 1 tank and up mines and move out -> FE. I generally will micro those units to no end. When I Midas rush, I use the 9depot/11rax/12gas build, for I need my rax up as soon as possible to stop early scout/zeal rush. Now this is what MY Midas seems to allow me
When I Midas rush I will get one of the following three things :
1: I will break down a 1gate range -> FE forcing them to cancle, giving me the faster FE and the same fact v gate ratio. This will allow me to jump to my 3 factories very fast and get to my fast pressure style immediately. Since he will lose goons, I can fastly reproduce and soon jump to 5fact Tornado.
2: I will catch them doing a robo build and ultimately dominate them -> go into base -> probe kills. And pretty much GG it right there. Not much more too it…Midas > Robo.
3: Be forced back due to 2 gate range/robo or 2gate range - > FE. I will then start a contain at a semi-far point from his choke…far enough so its not noticeable, but close enough so that its not 8 yrs to reach his nexus. This will generally make a protoss panic and suicide more than he should to stop it, ultimately giving me the lead going into a Pressure Push ( like midas vs draco) but much more aggressive.
I find this build to be my strongest/best
#2.Shadow Rush – Ramp Maps ; Longinius
In this rush You will use 2 factories. To do this you will need the 12rax/12gas for economic reasons. The build order is as follows : 9depot; 12rax/12gas ; 15depot ; 15 marine ; 16factory ; 19factory ; Factory finishs -> add-on / depot ; Second fact finishs – vulture. When the first fact gets its add on, Make a tank and upgrade siege( I prefer that the factory is viewable by a probe/goon, and that the second one/vults is further back). When you have 2 tanks, siege should finish. Now, Fake the FE by killing his probe @ choke or goons?. Continue to make tanks and now upgrade mines. As the mines are upgrading get an academy/ebay ( to stop DT/REAVER). When you get your 4th tank, you should have 7 vults awaiting at your second factory. You can now move out and hope they took their 3rd early. As you move out, expo / upgrade ion ( should be 25% done ). Continue making vultures. NOTE: You MUST wall-in to do this.
Now when I do the Shadow Rush It usually does one of 2 things :
1: It will catch the protoss taking a 3rd, and completely wipe out the dragoon force/ proceed to take on their nat with a tank/vult push. Then allow to get your 3rd/4th/5th factory while dominating their forces making them lose more than they should have. Now you can either A: do what I do and Re-Attack as soon as your contain breaks. Or B: Turtle up and force them to panic and tech very high.
2: Will be forced back by some 3 gate robo..or some unit power oriented build. Now with this they should be behind economically, so you’ll want to set up a decent contain away from their base ( See : Midas Rush ). And mine the map severely. Also try to get vults into his main to snipe down probes, punishing him for stoping your attack with mass units.
I find this build to be VERY deceptive / insanely powerful.
#3. 1 Factory CC- Tau Cross ; Ramp Maps
This is probably one of my top 5 most common openings in TvP. When I do this opening, I usually feel quite safe and feel as though it is a good opener to my super pressure style. This is how I do it.
When I make my 1 Fact CC, I will always make 4 marines ( to stop early goon harass/ provide good vs the shuttle/goon attack most commonly used by Tempest)Is(.) A tank/siege and a CC/ebay. not specifically in that Order.
As the CC is making, I will make a second factory and maybe even a third factory. With this, I Can keep tank production from my initial factory/ and vultures from my 2nd/3rd. Eventually I will most likely get academy and my 4th/5th factory at the same time ( tornado style ). My initial attack with a 1 Fact CC Is usually 7 tanks 7 vultures -> 5 vultures coming to aid @ the battle.
This build allows me to do many things :
1: With this build, I usually feel very safe, and I find it very hard to cheese. It is GREAT macro into a pressure style build, and can usually shift whichever way needed( turtle/pressure…pressure ftw!) This is a great build overall.
2: Make my Initial attack very strong and hard to stop, with consistent reinforcements / taking a 3rd safely is always a good thing.
3: Can make the protoss uncomfortable sometimes when they see my fast factories. And make them play 2 base power toss. When this happens, I generally tend to take a 3rd and turtle, with A LOT of vulture harass/mining of the map.
Great Build. Great Opening. Great overall.
#4. 2 Factory Vulture – Ramp Maps ; Tau Cross/ back-door nat maps.
This is probably one of my FAVORITE builds to do. For the flexibility involved in this rush is so amazing its almost unreal. When I 2factory vulture I will most likely make 4 marines to stop annoying dragoon harass. I will make a 16/19 fact. Double add-on’s ion then mine. 1 tank and then 4 vult -> move out. The flexibility in this rush is very good.
This rush tends to show great map control/harass. Also it is very strong vs DT rush and fast expoing toss’s. Also the 4 marine / 1 tank can support it if you so please. When you move out, continue to make vultures and expo. Mining of your choke is optional.
When you reach the protoss’s nat, if it is unguarded/unexpoed, mine it up severely and mine the map A LOT to search for proxies/reaver(shuttle flying overheard). Then retreat back to your base, placing the initial 4 vultures @ the Protoss’s 3rd. And 1 on patrol @ 4th/5th. When I use this rush I tend to get these things :
1: The protoss will not have expoed. See above paragraph.
2: The protoss will be awaiting me at his choke. I will engage him with my vultures and attempt vulture micro to explode his dragoons. UNLESS HE HAS TOO MANY I.E : 6. Then I will retreat..mine up a bit -> Bring the tank/rine force and guess what!? Start a pressure contain.
3: The protoss will be awaiting me at my choke. Using my vulture vision, I will bring my rines/tank and engage him in battle usually ultimately leading to utter destruction of 4 dragoons. Proceed to his choke and mine it up. TRY CATCHING THE EXPO’S TRANSFER !!! If you can, enter his base.
I find this rush the most flexible and pressure oriented out of most of my pressure rushes. Also it gives : Map View ; Forces the robo->obs ; Allows good amount of factories/units and Upgrades.
#5. 2 Factory Power Expo
Generally used by the legendary IloveOOv himself, I tend to find it SUPER SAFE versus any amount of 3gate dragoon -> robo. Or even reaver. The build order for this is. 9depot; 12rax/12gas ; 15depot ; 15 rine ; 16 fact / 19 fact…etc. You will get 3 tanks first ( both factories have add-on’s..remember to hide the second factory a little behind the first…make the first viewable) You will get 3 tanks and upgrade siege. Meanwhile @ 3 tanks you should build your CC/Ebay. And continue tank production. This is very gas heavy. So the 12/12 is needed.
When I Do this opening, many protoss’s ponder of how I got so many tanks so fast, and allows for a quick 4FACTORY! Tornado Style, while macroing @ home. Generally you should stop tank production @ 12 tanks. Then proceed to vultures immediately. Get 12/12 and move out while continuing to make vultures to reinforce. Note this opening can have 5 factories…however I don’t prefer it. This opening does these things :
1: Can turtle quite well, and go into a macro game, while being completely safe from any early pressure style.
2: a super powered tornado is AVAILIBLE through this, it can immediately manhandle any normal sized toss army ( with proper control ) assuming they took their 3rd and didn’t jump to units as fast as you.
3: Can do an offensive turtle push ( See Midas vs Draco WCG 2006 ).
I find this build very safe, especially versus stronger players. Also it is very deceptive and can give you a lead in the game. Since this build is used to combat a pressure protoss, they will generally fall behind to your mass amount of units since they cant harass.
#6. Tank Rush – Any map. Preferably no-ramp maps.
This rush, if performed correctly is RIDICILOUS. I have beaten protoss’ that were Korean and much better than me with this. For this rush can also be deceptive and ridiciously strong.
Basically this rush starts out the same as the 2 Factory Power Expo, which allows this to have SOME flexibility. In this rush you will generally have 6 tanks and 8 marines when you move out. This is to be done with the 12rax/12gas build. This is a 2factory attack.
When this rush comes out, It is scary force! 6tanks!? 8 marines!?. I generally bring 4 scvs to heal tanks since 4 can heal a tank fast enough to fight 2 dragoons…and to repair to make my guys last longer. This rush does the following.
1: Can completely level a protoss and force the GG. Also this rush can become a 2 Factory Power expo if needed. Granted this rush is slow, and very mineral/gas heavy. It will lose to Dark Templar .. most of the time.
2: Can start a slow push starting near the choke of the protoss, into the choke of the protoss. This will cause Pressure(which I love !) and sometimes can make the protoss crack losing MUCH more than he needs to.
Basically 1 and 2 happen 99% of the time. Except there are the few occasions where due to some weird awkward build the rush can lose. But I find it very deceptive/strong and not something to mess with. It will dominate 2 gate range expo and even 1 gate range expo. And the ability to fake an FE…Priceless.
#7. 1 Factory Port Type 1: Tank edition – Any map?
The mobility of this is very very good. I however don’t tend to use this rush often… because I think it is outdated. But hey whats better than a rush completely unexpected! This rush can follow up with an 12rax/12gas or just 11rax/12gas. Depends if you want marines or not. I prefer marines for a soon-to-come pressure style.
This rush will basically open up with the mobility of dropship ! Hence you can take islands or…get EMP very fast for a quick tornado/emp attack. This rush will delay a protoss’s expo if he goes 2 gate range on a Cliffable-Nat map ( RLT / LT ). Or.. it will just kill many probes or something. This is what tends to happen when I do it :
1: I will drop the tanks off in the base and fly dropship elsewhere ( See Boxer Pimp Plays ). This will allow me to TARGET- Many Probes. Using shift…or manual control. The greatness of this rush is that it gives dropship mobility. Eco lead. And allows a safe FE! Good overall
2: Will be forced back by a goon force, forcing the dropship to wait for a transfer (mmm tasty) then proceeding to explode 12 probes -> pick up -> leave. Type ROFL WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE PROBES? ( just kidding ). Again. Mobility. Deception. And can go into a contain!!!! <3 Contains.
Generally outdated…however it still can be used here and there. Its good for a early contain/safe FE since it doesn’t really slow an FE TOO much. Then you can proceed to my FE version -> tornado.
#8. 1 Factory Port Type 2 : Vulture Edition – Ramp Maps Only?
This rush follows the basic general build of Type 1 edition. However instead of making a tank you proceed very fast to 4 vultures. Get 4+ marines for this to hold ramp. When you get your vultures mine up the ramp a little ( 4 mines ), pick up and gogo to the toss’s main. Unleash severe vulture micro.
This is what tends to happen when I do it.
1: Generally the protoss will NOT have any dragoon’s awaiting your aerial raid @ his/her main. So the 4 vultures having ion/mines can wreck havoc( especially with no robo!). With this rush it tends to force a all-transfer to his natural ( if he has one ) and delay mining severely/ kill units. Also what is so great about this rush is that it provides map view / mobility. And an expo! Granted this rush can’t lead to any form of contain ( unless you think like me in thinking a line of 80 billion mines is a contain awaiting your 2 tanks to arrive to start a pressure push!).
2: If the protoss does have dragoon’s awaiting, you can attempt a drop/probe bomb or run away and go for your FE, while mining the map severely. With this dropship, he will have to fear later harass from tanks or vults. And even fast Vessle. So again…brain pressure!?
Generally this rush can make or break you. It can kill a protoss or It can kill you. This I recommend only for extreme vulture micro users as such myself. This rush is also great for mobility/deception. And gets the protoss thinking.
#9. 1 Factory Port Type 3 : Tank/Vult edition- Ramp Map only.
Basically im not going into epic detail on this rush, basically just combine Type 1 and Type 2 excluding ion thrusters. Bring 2 vultures and 1 Tank for your drop and wreck havoc on his probes/dragoons.
Again the “situations” are a combined of Type 1 and 2.
#10. 14 CC – Island Map only : Land map…see below. ACTUALLY – PEAKS! -> See Artosis @ NE Lan vs Gas steal. Great Build.
LOL! DO THIS VS A GOOD TOSS AND THEY WILL LAUGH AT YOU. SUCCEED AND YOU WIN. On a land map you will generally lose…if you succeed, follow through on my FE build except with 7 factories!
Island Map : 14cc – 1 Fact Port / Turtle basically …you will fight robo either way…no real reason to get into it.
#11. Bio/2port Wraith – Ramp Map Only / Peaks of Baekdu
These builds I do not recommend, and I generally only use as a joke or a cheese.
Basically 8 rine 2 medic MM attack or 2 port wraith with scan. If either rush connects you win. If not you lose. Not much more too it.
See my TvZ Guide coming soon
Counter Guide
#1.Midas Rush(Fake Double)
Generally, the common counter to the FD, is 1 of the following 3. I will describe how to go about it and how to not panic.
1.FD vs 3gate Power Dragoon
When your FD comes out, naturally the protoss will have 5 dragoons. As soon as you see this, retreat immediately to your base and lay down mines in a line. And constantly pump vultures to reinforce mines. If you can stop his Onslaught, you should win the game, seeing as your expo is up much quicker and all he is doing is bulldoging you with Dragoons.
Jump to 3 factories if you can multitask it. Keep your tank alive and upgrade seige while this is all going on. You should be safe if you get it under control.
2. FD vs Anytime's Dark Templar Rush
This is probably one of the more scary situations, but you have mines so its not over yet. Since The DT coming from the proxy will arrive as you leave your expo, you can have your second vulture make a mine path @ your ramp/below ramp. Constantly produce vults and lay mines in a stratigic defense order.
Retreat your army from his base, you will see the "blurr" coming from the DT following your army, this is the sign to retreat. Get an E-Bay immediately and again, go for the 3 factories, Except don't jump to seige, he has too much gas going on to be able to reinforce observers, instead go for 3 factorie vulture. Upgrade ions, and begin to mine up the map/his nat. You should be fine.
If the DT does manage to get into your base, simply maynard to your FE, and mine the ramp/choke and get the ebay/academy.
3. FD vs 3Gate Power Dragoon Robo
This again, is one of the more scary attacks that can be used to fight off your rush. As i said in the 1st FD vs 3gate, just mine up fast and actually in this one jump to Siege fast/3factory. Make sure you build 2 turrets around your tanks and just turtle, awaiting on the Onslaught he will be sending at you.
#2.Shadow Rush
Here are the general counters, and how to fight them.
1.SR vs 3gate Power Dragoon Robo
When this happens, you have to be aware that he too does not have an expo, and that you have all 3 criteria ( siege/mines/ion). Along with 2 factories.
Simply engage him with the first battle and micro to no end, if you win, hold your ground and reinforce it -> expo. This will be a general micro war.
If you can, get vults into his base to crush probes/reinforcing dragoons.
2.SR vs Dark Templar Rush/Stall
Since the SR has scanner/mines it should be no problem. However, if it is, simply take a expo, and get a 3rd factory and go for a late-early-game tornado.
#3.1 Factory CC
Here are the general counters/how to handle them.
1.1FactCC vs 3gate Power Dragoon Robo
Since the 3gate PDR doesnt come until you have about 6 tanks. You can take advantage of this with a Barracks/E-bay block in front of the tanks with 2 turrets.
Put some tanks on upper ground(if-you-can). And try to go to 3 factory or 4 immediately if you can, to reinforce vs the rush. If the rush connects on you, you will generally lose. If not, you win.
So there you have it. My TvP Openings/rushes. They are all generally to get a lead or a aggressive style going. However granted I don’t talk much about my pressure. I can’t really describe it since I adapted it over time. Basically I play a medium/low scv count with severe harass and very very fast pressure. Constintly trying to find gaps in your play and exploit it massivly. I harass 24/7 and I will turtle if just to make you lose. Generally pressure styles allows a terran to come back in the game if needed since we have VULTURES! And Mine Bombs. My play is really really about vulture harass and really really strong pushes. I constantly mine the map and make it impossible to cheese me. Reversing the pressure is generally the only way I’ve been notice my style loses., however I do perform very well under pressure. Remember…NEVER LET THE PRESSURE UP CONSTANTLY GIVE IT NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT MIGHT HURT. Since I play medium scv style/ mix of nada/perfective I can easily turtle or pressure…I prefer to Tessure? aka Contain. I will edit this soon to add anything I may have forgot. Goodluck Aggressive terrans!
UPDATE: Many of you have been asking what happens if the protoss counters one of these builds. The counter is to keep up the same style of play, but tone it down. Continue vulture harass as best you can, and remember to mine the map alot for constant vision. Really make it a bitch for them to take a 3rd/4th.
I will be writing a TvT/TvZ guide coming soon. I hope you all enjoy this guide ! Much love to Teamliquid.net and the whole community!
~ LaStShadOw
KEEP THE QUESTIONS COMING
EDIT: Replays to/for each rush
MidasRush: Coming Soon
ShadowRush: Coming Soon
TankRush: Coming Soon
2Fact Power Expo: Coming Soon
2Factory Vulture: Coming Soon
1Factory CC: Coming Soon
Bio: Coming soon
14cc: Coming soon
2Port Wraith: Coming soon
NaDa rush: Coming soon
All Fact Ports : Coming soon.
Enjoy tl ^^!
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Norway28525 Posts
yes really lol
you even admit to the other topic partially being ruined by you, yet you don't edit out any of the parts that made people flame you
drop the self promotion it's annoying as fuck. you're only 14 so I'm not saying this to flame you, because I was also an annoying self promoting bastard when I was 14. I'm merely trying to explain to you that people are not flaming you for no reason, and it's not that they haven't heard of you either. if you're going to try to start over again, which is not a bad idea at all, contributing it always cool. 
but if your post had not contained the following lines, people would not have flamed you, and only appreciated it like some people did in fact do:
"
Granted I may not be the best “Foreign Terran” I believe that my style is very unique/ and that I can contend with the top foreigners…. I have chosen to write a Tv? Super Pressure Style Guide to my Build Orders and Thoughts on what is going on."
"Due to many people asking me to write a Super Pressure Oriented Terran Guide on wgt/gg.net/b.net, I have finally chosen to do so." (not annoying in itself, only that you choose to write Super Pressure Oriented so many times. )
"I think my Terran Versus Protoss is my best and most insane matchup. I really do not fear many protoss’ when go into a game. I don’t care who they are as long as they aren’t some progamer. For I think my TvP can contend with the top foreigners ( IMO )"
"Granted you may flame me, this is a rush I’m pretty sure I made up. " in this line it's like you're even aware of the fact that people might flame you because of it, and then you proceed typing it and posting it, and then you whine about the flames you recevive..
"2: If you play it like me, a super powered tornado, it can immediately manhandle any normal sized toss army ( with proper control ) assuming they took their 3rd and didn’t jump to units as fast as you."
here the annoying part is defining yourself as a super powered tornado. this can be funny if done correctly but meh, here it wasnt
"
My style is very very unique and I give MUCH credit to By.fantasy/[ReD]NaDa; and the great PERFECTIVE. For I feel I combine all of their styles into one I call Shadow Terran."
people arent supposed to give nicknames to their own styles of play. either you play so well and unique that other people give a nickname to your style of play, or it's not worth nicknaming. period.
then you have every single post where you namedropped people you had beat. also annoying
heed all this advice and you can become a well respected member of the community, because if you're only 14 then you're clearly pretty sharp and talented, just dont let your sharpness and talent get to your head because your sharpness and talent is not unique, at all. if it were, you would not have to spout it yourself.
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i just dont get all the hype about his promotion.. i took all those Super Pressure comments as funny, not something to get pissed about, people get mad too easy over the internetz 
fact is.. people dont write guides here often, and help is most welcome, this guide might not be able to compete with dazes, but its still nice and covers some ground that daze didnt and vice versa, and all this flaming has discouraged him from doing a T/T T/Z part of the guide , so he wrote some things that sound cocky, he is 14, he will learn, i dont think he got in anyones face yelling PWNED EZ WITH REPS NEWB, he didnt post replays to make anyone look bad, only to make himself look good, some self promotion, might have been a bit overdone, but what, incontrol and liquid drone gave him good advice, if he follows it, he will become a good comunity member and player, if not he will get banned, we dont need more PLZ BAN. PLZ DIE posts here.
now that being said, in tvp i always mess up my scv count, or add factories late or early, so when i FD i tend to get caught with my pants down, i add 3-4 more facts, and just as my first 4 vults come out, zlots come in and rape me ez. any advice on that, and generally whats a good number of scv to keep around, and when to stop producing them ?
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Going over the replay for the Midas Rush I've got a few questions:
- With the initial rush (7rines+tank) why did you continue to attack with the rines after you lost the tank? From what I saw, they didn't do much damage as goons >>> rines and it looked like you lost the rines for no reason. Would it have made more sense to pull the rines back to backup your second wave when a tank arrived or did attacking with them serve a purpose I can't see?
- Do you choose to do a Midas rush based entirely on the map/race MU? You seemed to scout late so you didn't really know if he 2 gated, 1 gated, etc until you had already committed to the rush. Reading Daze's and a lot of other guides, they stress scouting more and choosing a build to react to what you see. Now, your late scouting may be because of your more proactive style which forces the opponent to react instead but I would just like to know if that is your reasoning.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
hmm i dont know what happened in the other thread, but making an exact duplicate thread is utterly retarded in my book.
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Norway28525 Posts
the flames directed towards him has nothing to do with his skill thus asking anyone to play him to prove a point would just be moronic. the flames directed towards him are telling him to present himself in a more humble manner, which is something say, testie has been correctly flamed for countless times despite being better than virtually everyone who has ever given him a hard time for being an arrogant jackass. :D
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United States4471 Posts
I deleted every off-topic post made by non-staff (because we look after our own  ). Unless you're going to discuss the actual post and not the poster, don't bother posting in this thread. If you want to criticize the poster, feel free to PM him or make another thread. Let's try to have an actual discussion about strategy and get over the other bullshit.
Some suggestions to XyO or strifeshadow or whoever:
1. Format the guide better with some bolding and underlining to make it easier to read. This is important when the guide is so long and has so many different parts and sections to it.
2. Try to take out the parts where you validate your own skill or compare yourself to other "known" players. Discuss your strategies and suggestions and leave it at that.
3. Continue to edit the original post as suggestions and criticisms are made so that people can easily see an updated version of your guide as it's developed and corrected/improved.
4. (edit) I changed the title of the thread because I closed the other one. Let's try to forget the other one, except to use it as a reminder that self-promotion rarely comes off well to others.
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This guide has a lot of good content, but it's ruined by the poor way it is written. Here's your constructive criticism: try removing all references to yourself in the guide and presenting it in an objective manner. Build - Reasoning - Counter. A lot of players could learn from a more aggressive style tvp because the main counter to a lot of these rushes is excellent timing and micro from the opponent. Below top level foreign play many players aren't going to be able to handle these types of attacks as easily as they handle a passive 1 fac cc 200/200 turtlemax build.
@Cyric: Thank you for removing my post which said the same thing as Drone's, except first, that he should have edited out the self promotion which was the cause of the problem.
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Ok i just updated the guide, taking the advice of eriador and cyric. Thank you very much
I will be adding the counters part very soon. It will be below the main guide, and will go in sequencial order as the rushes.
Keep the questions/PM's coming
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On May 24 2007 15:13 Phyre wrote:
Going over the replay for the Midas Rush I've got a few questions:
- With the initial rush (7rines+tank) why did you continue to attack with the rines after you lost the tank? From what I saw, they didn't do much damage as goons >>> rines and it looked like you lost the rines for no reason. Would it have made more sense to pull the rines back to backup your second wave when a tank arrived or did attacking with them serve a purpose I can't see?
- Do you choose to do a Midas rush based entirely on the map/race MU? You seemed to scout late so you didn't really know if he 2 gated, 1 gated, etc until you had already committed to the rush. Reading Daze's and a lot of other guides, they stress scouting more and choosing a build to react to what you see. Now, your late scouting may be because of your more proactive style which forces the opponent to react instead but I would just like to know if that is your reasoning.
I understand what you are saying.
To answer your first question
The reason i continued the attack on the dragoons, was to not allow a counter immediatly. Also the dragoon speed is about 1more step faster than marines, so the protoss could have easily dogged them down. And i noticed that some were highly damaged, so my soon to come aggressive push would hurt much more. Also they gave me a good general idea of what he was doing i.e 2 gate or 3gate.
To answer your second question
Yes, sometimes the map has a very high reason as to why i midas, not only because it is my favorite rush. And yes you are correct on my play style, i generally take the initive in games, forcing my opponent to react, not me. Also I find my micro to be good, so that is another reason i do it, along from Midas > Robo/DT tech.
Another good thing about the midas, is it allows an expo and mine tech. Mines are generally good vs 3gate Dragoon or even Dark Templar. It forces the robo, which can hurt a protoss's initial strategy.
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On May 24 2007 14:56 BeSiGeR wrote:i just dont get all the hype about his promotion.. i took all those Super Pressure comments as funny, not something to get pissed about, people get mad too easy over the internetz fact is.. people dont write guides here often, and help is most welcome, this guide might not be able to compete with dazes, but its still nice and covers some ground that daze didnt and vice versa, and all this flaming has discouraged him from doing a T/T T/Z part of the guide , so he wrote some things that sound cocky, he is 14, he will learn, i dont think he got in anyones face yelling PWNED EZ WITH REPS NEWB, he didnt post replays to make anyone look bad, only to make himself look good, some self promotion, might have been a bit overdone, but what, incontrol and liquid drone gave him good advice, if he follows it, he will become a good comunity member and player, if not he will get banned, we dont need more PLZ BAN. PLZ DIE posts here. now that being said, in tvp i always mess up my scv count, or add factories late or early, so when i FD i tend to get caught with my pants down, i add 3-4 more facts, and just as my first 4 vults come out, zlots come in and rape me ez. any advice on that, and generally whats a good number of scv to keep around, and when to stop producing them ?
I have followed INC's advice/Drone's, and i appreciate that they are helping me with this, since this is my first guide and major post.
Now to answer your question
If by FD, you mean Midas then i can help you. Generally when you Midas rush, you will be wanting to force the protoss backwards, or do a sneaky Mine before Attack where you play it as if your scared so the protoss will attack you, running into your mines, now you turn the tables and go on the aggresive.
The Midas rush is only meant to make about 2 vultures, 3 is OK, but not good. Your initial attack of -7marines -1tank - vult -> expo. Is generally good, the SECOND vulture is to mine up your choke and possibly reinforce if the protoss is going robo. Afterwards, you make a second/third factory and a tank/seige upgrade. Always keep making scvs, till you have about 36 at each base? For your main can transfer to your 3rd without killing itself, but it isnt overkill for an aggresive style terran.
Hope this helps. Keep questions coming GLGL
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I can't wait for the tvz guide
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"When I Midas rush I will get one of the following three things :
1: I will break down a 1gate range -> FE forcing them to cancle, giving me the faster FE and the same fact v gate ratio. This will allow me to jump to my 3 factories very fast and get to my fast pressure style immediately. Since he will lose goons, I can fastly reproduce and soon jump to 5fact Tornado.
2: I will catch them doing a robo build and ultimately dominate them -> go into base -> probe kills. And pretty much GG it right there. Not much more too it…Midas > Robo.
3: Be forced back due to 2 gate range/robo or 2gate range - > FE. I will then start a contain at a semi-far point from his choke…far enough so its not noticeable, but close enough so that its not 8 yrs to reach his nexus. This will generally make a protoss panic and suicide more than he should to stop it, ultimately giving me the lead going into a Pressure Push ( like midas vs draco) but much more aggressive.
I find this build to be my strongest/best"
Just wanted to talk about this.
Regarding 1) Nobody ranges to fast expand PVT on any but the HUGEST maps with weirdass tight chokes. Well they do, but just as a fun thing. It's like talking about how to counter a mass shuttles and goon and lot drops on your main.
2) What the heck do you mean by midas > robo? Who are you playing? Toss always goes robo. Do you mean midas >'s 20 rob? Even then, I doubt it. You 20 rob on maps with ramps and cliff overlooking expo, and then P can hold you off above his choke if you rush quick, and that will give him time to get going with that second gate on 28 or whatever.
3) Any protoss that doesn't notice a contain after he pushed you back should die (or it's that ONE unlucky game)
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gosuface, there was recently a guide on 1) heh, which I take to mean 1gate range to expo, but yea its not all that common. (Edit- You actually say 1) is what I would call 2gate range though, but whats this talk of forcing them to chancel, I saw no cancel in the rep you provided. Any good player will be able to hold of fd with 2gate range, and you won't necessarily have faster expo either.) But (ah but!) 1gate to expo actually can work well vs fd (what you call midas) depending on the circumstances. People always seem to leave out these factors, hum. In fact, the fd rep you provided it it would have worked perfectly well. One can have 5goons slightly before 5:30 with a 1gate 4:30 expo build. As it just so happens you attacked tasteless after 5:30 in the rep, when he had 5 goons, 2gateing before expo. And he held you off perfectly fine. He could have gotten away with a 40sec earlier nexus! It was the rest that was a bit of a problem for him eh. It was rougher on him with you not going ebay/acad at all though.
Yea, robo before range does poor vs fd. Its hard because you often will not have range before your attacked, and you'll have later expo regardless. But yea, its possible to hold a ramp doing this depending on mico, probe help, etc. (Edit- you say, "I WILL NOT MOVE UP YOUR RAMP. NO TERRAN WOULD." This is certainly not true, I've seen midas do it before vs robo first, beating lx)
Please don't respond to this post, as I don't want to try explaining what I've already set out very clearly.
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Overall, I liked the build breakdown. A good intro to the basic pvt openings. I'd like to see more follow ups though, such as vs dt ground/drop, reaver, etc. Also Supply Count B.O.s and analysis would be good, though reps make do. I won't remind you that your a tard as you have gotten enough of that.
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On May 24 2007 17:26 -_- wrote:
"When I Midas rush I will get one of the following three things :
1: I will break down a 1gate range -> FE forcing them to cancle, giving me the faster FE and the same fact v gate ratio. This will allow me to jump to my 3 factories very fast and get to my fast pressure style immediately. Since he will lose goons, I can fastly reproduce and soon jump to 5fact Tornado.
2: I will catch them doing a robo build and ultimately dominate them -> go into base -> probe kills. And pretty much GG it right there. Not much more too it…Midas > Robo.
3: Be forced back due to 2 gate range/robo or 2gate range - > FE. I will then start a contain at a semi-far point from his choke…far enough so its not noticeable, but close enough so that its not 8 yrs to reach his nexus. This will generally make a protoss panic and suicide more than he should to stop it, ultimately giving me the lead going into a Pressure Push ( like midas vs draco) but much more aggressive.
I find this build to be my strongest/best"
Just wanted to talk about this.
Regarding 1) Nobody ranges to fast expand PVT on any but the HUGEST maps with weirdass tight chokes. Well they do, but just as a fun thing. It's like talking about how to counter a mass shuttles and goon and lot drops on your main.
2) What the heck do you mean by midas > robo? Who are you playing? Toss always goes robo. Do you mean midas >'s 20 rob? Even then, I doubt it. You 20 rob on maps with ramps and cliff overlooking expo, and then P can hold you off above his choke if you rush quick, and that will give him time to get going with that second gate on 28 or whatever.
3) Any protoss that doesn't notice a contain after he pushed you back should die (or it's that ONE unlucky game)
1) 2Gate range expo is a very common opening..that is why nada dominated at blizzcon 2005.
2) Midas > robo build. 1 gate robo/obs or 1 gate robo reaver. The point of the midas is to stop a counter/delay their expo. i dont give a damn if you sit at ramp, i will sit at your choke and contain.
3) The point is they dont have enough units to be IM GONNA ROLL OVER YOU. after the midas, hence they will be protective of their base.
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United States20661 Posts
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Why do you insist on calling it Midas build? :O
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On May 24 2007 19:08 lastshadow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2007 17:26 -_- wrote:
"When I Midas rush I will get one of the following three things :
1: I will break down a 1gate range -> FE forcing them to cancle, giving me the faster FE and the same fact v gate ratio. This will allow me to jump to my 3 factories very fast and get to my fast pressure style immediately. Since he will lose goons, I can fastly reproduce and soon jump to 5fact Tornado.
2: I will catch them doing a robo build and ultimately dominate them -> go into base -> probe kills. And pretty much GG it right there. Not much more too it…Midas > Robo.
3: Be forced back due to 2 gate range/robo or 2gate range - > FE. I will then start a contain at a semi-far point from his choke…far enough so its not noticeable, but close enough so that its not 8 yrs to reach his nexus. This will generally make a protoss panic and suicide more than he should to stop it, ultimately giving me the lead going into a Pressure Push ( like midas vs draco) but much more aggressive.
I find this build to be my strongest/best"
Just wanted to talk about this.
Regarding 1) Nobody ranges to fast expand PVT on any but the HUGEST maps with weirdass tight chokes. Well they do, but just as a fun thing. It's like talking about how to counter a mass shuttles and goon and lot drops on your main.
2) What the heck do you mean by midas > robo? Who are you playing? Toss always goes robo. Do you mean midas >'s 20 rob? Even then, I doubt it. You 20 rob on maps with ramps and cliff overlooking expo, and then P can hold you off above his choke if you rush quick, and that will give him time to get going with that second gate on 28 or whatever.
3) Any protoss that doesn't notice a contain after he pushed you back should die (or it's that ONE unlucky game) 1) 2Gate range expo is a very common opening..that is why nada dominated at blizzcon 2005. 2) Midas > robo build. 1 gate robo/obs or 1 gate robo reaver. The point of the midas is to stop a counter/delay their expo. i dont give a damn if you sit at ramp, i will sit at your choke and contain. 3) The point is they dont have enough units to be IM GONNA ROLL OVER YOU. after the midas, hence they will be protective of their base.
1) 2 gate range expo is common... in fact it's used almost every PVT game. 1 gate isn't.
2) It doesn't own rob build. You're drunk. I'd say 50% of PVT's played on LT have protoss building a rob bay on 20. He has to. Are you telling me T will easily dominate on LT? You'll sit under my ramp for three second while I get 5-6 goons, maybe kill a tank, definitely kill some rines, and you won't slow me down a second.
3) ima scared, you're going to roll over me TT.
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On May 24 2007 19:39 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2007 19:08 lastshadow wrote:On May 24 2007 17:26 -_- wrote:
"When I Midas rush I will get one of the following three things :
1: I will break down a 1gate range -> FE forcing them to cancle, giving me the faster FE and the same fact v gate ratio. This will allow me to jump to my 3 factories very fast and get to my fast pressure style immediately. Since he will lose goons, I can fastly reproduce and soon jump to 5fact Tornado.
2: I will catch them doing a robo build and ultimately dominate them -> go into base -> probe kills. And pretty much GG it right there. Not much more too it…Midas > Robo.
3: Be forced back due to 2 gate range/robo or 2gate range - > FE. I will then start a contain at a semi-far point from his choke…far enough so its not noticeable, but close enough so that its not 8 yrs to reach his nexus. This will generally make a protoss panic and suicide more than he should to stop it, ultimately giving me the lead going into a Pressure Push ( like midas vs draco) but much more aggressive.
I find this build to be my strongest/best"
Just wanted to talk about this.
Regarding 1) Nobody ranges to fast expand PVT on any but the HUGEST maps with weirdass tight chokes. Well they do, but just as a fun thing. It's like talking about how to counter a mass shuttles and goon and lot drops on your main.
2) What the heck do you mean by midas > robo? Who are you playing? Toss always goes robo. Do you mean midas >'s 20 rob? Even then, I doubt it. You 20 rob on maps with ramps and cliff overlooking expo, and then P can hold you off above his choke if you rush quick, and that will give him time to get going with that second gate on 28 or whatever.
3) Any protoss that doesn't notice a contain after he pushed you back should die (or it's that ONE unlucky game) 1) 2Gate range expo is a very common opening..that is why nada dominated at blizzcon 2005. 2) Midas > robo build. 1 gate robo/obs or 1 gate robo reaver. The point of the midas is to stop a counter/delay their expo. i dont give a damn if you sit at ramp, i will sit at your choke and contain. 3) The point is they dont have enough units to be IM GONNA ROLL OVER YOU. after the midas, hence they will be protective of their base. 1) 2 gate range expo is common... in fact it's used almost every PVT game. 1 gate isn't. 2) It doesn't own rob build. You're drunk. I'd say 50% of PVT's played on LT have protoss building a rob bay on 20. He has to. Are you telling me T will easily dominate on LT? You'll sit under my ramp for three second while I get 5-6 goons, maybe kill a tank, definitely kill some rines, and you won't slow me down a second. 3) ima scared, you're going to roll over me TT.
Im not going to start the flame again.
1) 1 gate range 2nd gate. Is 1 gate range.
2) robo WILL DIE. I WILL NOT MOVE UP YOUR RAMP. NO TERRAN WOULD. You will have 3 goons when i combat you @ your choke. 3 at ramp i will sit at your choke. GG. Don't try telling me what to do vs protoss's do, i've play too many.
3) Still stays true.
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On May 24 2007 19:36 LastRomantic wrote:
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Why do you insist on calling it Midas build? :O
Midas vs Fisheye WCG. Fisheye went standard 1 gate robo obs, midas came out with this rush, when fisheye saw midas already had an expo, fisheye new it was over.
It's also his most common rush vs foreigners / "juniors"
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