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In the end mechanics aren’t actually that important
Wickd is the only LoL player that I'm watching streaming. It always fun to hear him say "I got such an advantage over him, he is gonna get crushed" and then gets owned 1v1 ten seconds after. That's the proof that mechanics are very important. A pro player should know when he is gonna get wrecked and when he is gonna win because in LoL there is very few randomness in 1v1, it just mechanical : "I have, X items, Y stats, Z level, you have A item, B stats, C level, I'm gonna win or i'm gonna lose based on these factor"
Saying that mecanics aren't important is allowing wickd to jump into a fight 1v5 shouting "I'M GONNA KILL THEM ALL" against TPA or any other good team.
Mechanics are important, even in LoL.
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On February 05 2013 07:40 algue wrote:Wickd is the only LoL player that I'm watching streaming. It always fun to hear him say "I got such an advantage over him, he is gonna get crushed" and then gets owned 1v1 ten seconds after. That's the proof that mechanics are very important. A pro player should know when he is gonna get wrecked and when he is gonna win because in LoL there is very few randomness in 1v1, it just mechanical : "I have, X items, Y stats, Z level, you have A item, B stats, C level, I'm gonna win or i'm gonna lose based on these factor" mechanics are important, even in LoL.
Creep aggro, jungle presence, burst, cc etc
heroes hit power peaks at certain levels, where you could kill them easily 1 level ago, the entire thing turns around and you get raped instead. understand how much damage you'll deal in relation to how much they can deal, while calculating armor/mr reduction
theres alot more than, x y z.
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On February 05 2013 07:28 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 07:22 DonKey_ wrote:On February 05 2013 07:17 Martijn wrote:On February 05 2013 06:47 DonKey_ wrote:On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote:
Yeah right. The only thing is...
This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them. The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done. So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conversation. For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point. No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence. It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me. The problem is that the issue was settled a long time ago. It was clear that at one point Riot actually told teams about the exclusivity thing. The one thing that I do not believe has been uncovered is whether or not Riot rescinded the policy before people found out about it or after the shitstorm hit. It DID happen, though. It's not opinion. Go do the research and feel free to come back if you find conflicting evidence, but the burden of proof is on you at this point, because you're challenging what's known to be true.
Where was this issue settled the entire arguement never got off the ground from being a rumour, because no one had any evidence. In what way was it clear, it was everything but clear that riot told teams they had to be exclusive.
I don't believe EG/Complexity when they can't show anything and when Diginitas clearly said they did not have to be exclusive. The far more likely scenario was miscommunication seeing as those two teams where the only ones to report exclusivity when there was already plenty of teams who had Dota2/LoL divisions and never said anything of the sort.
If you are trying to prove something DID happen it should be rather easy for you to do so. I have no burden of proof to prove something did not happen.
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On February 05 2013 07:34 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 07:22 DonKey_ wrote:On February 05 2013 07:17 Martijn wrote:On February 05 2013 06:47 DonKey_ wrote:On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote:
Yeah right. The only thing is...
This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them. The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done. So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conven. For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point. No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence. It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me. You're incredibly naive. By your reasoning, WW never signed morrow. All we did is release a statement, clearly unless we show his contract, he's a free agent. I don't owe you any answers. Personally I don't care if you believe me or not. My only interest is that you don't muddy up the conversation. Any hopes of having a remotely insightful or constructive conversation is slowly slipping away.
Take a contract signing and compare it to an issue that started a false witch hunt across the internet. Ridiculous. If you can't prove to me that evidence exists who can you prove it too?
Constructive conversation ended with "I can't prove it, but believe I'm in the know"
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The reason why LoL will always be bashed in this manner is because of the mechanics, or at least that is what I think. I actually have started playing LoL recently ... I'm embarressed to say... it is quite fun to play with my friends...
Anyway, it is true that you have to think of alot of things... but in terms of sheer mechanics there just isn't as much to do Physically. Which makes me think in the back of my head, "any competant sc2 progamer could switch to LoL and eventually be good, whereas it doesn't apply the other way around"
I'm not saying this is true! I'm just saying that I can't help thinking that it could be true. Anyways, I am finally starting to grow up and I do hope that both SC2 and LoL can succeed... as well as dota 2. I would also love to see CS:GO hit it big.
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Canada11202 Posts
Why would you be embarrassed? I like BW and LoL. What now? 
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On February 05 2013 07:46 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 07:34 Martijn wrote:On February 05 2013 07:22 DonKey_ wrote:On February 05 2013 07:17 Martijn wrote:On February 05 2013 06:47 DonKey_ wrote:On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote:
Yeah right. The only thing is...
This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them. The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done. So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conven. For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point. No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence. It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me. You're incredibly naive. By your reasoning, WW never signed morrow. All we did is release a statement, clearly unless we show his contract, he's a free agent. I don't owe you any answers. Personally I don't care if you believe me or not. My only interest is that you don't muddy up the conversation. Any hopes of having a remotely insightful or constructive conversation is slowly slipping away. Take a contract signing and compare it to an issue that started a false witch hunt across the internet. Ridiculous. If you can't prove to me that evidence exists who can you prove it too? Constructive conversation ended with "I can't prove it, but believe I'm in the know"
Actually, I thought I was pretty clear in stating that I didn't care if you believed me or not. Nor was it intended to be part of a constructive conversation, it was ending the conversation. Now, here's to getting back to the actual discussion.
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On February 05 2013 07:47 Tuxedo wrote:
Anyway, it is true that you have to think of alot of things... but in terms of sheer mechanics there just isn't as much to do Physically. Which makes me think in the back of my head, "any competant sc2 progamer could switch to LoL and eventually be good, whereas it doesn't apply the other way around"
there have been loads of sc pro players switching and have done nothing remarkable yet
I was gonna argue all of the bs I see in this thread but it won't change anyones mind unfortunately..
Myself, I started in SC2, didn't play LoL until my friends got me into it and I can tell that the game is easily as hard as SC2 in the top level, sorry if you don't agree but it simply is, the skillset is just different.
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I think people constantly misunderstand where LoL stands in terms of skill cap etc.
Mechanically, League of Legends' skill floor is low. It is what makes it highly accessible and "casual". With that said, it does not mean League of Legends is easy to master. Skillshots, reaction, last-hitting, orb-walking etc still exist in this game. The mechanical skill cap is high but how high and how we measure it - it is all up to debate.
This brings us to the next topic: tactics and strategy. League of Legends by far requires a great deal of tactics and strategy. Because the focus of the game is not mechanics, the tactics and strategy skill has a greater emphasis. We've seen where team compositions and strategies shine. We've seen other teams outplay another team even if they're behind. Like Idra said, he encountered a certain complexity to League of Legends which makes the game fun. This complexity is related to the champions, masteries, runes, team compositions and execution. Picking that correct champion to match your team's composition - Setting your runes and masteries to counter the enemy laner - Executing that poke strat comp or late game stall comp (EG is known very well for this) are all part of tactics and strategy skills.
Many casual spectators of League of Legends games don't know the intricacies of LoL strategy which is consistently watched by blind eyes. If many of the Team Liquid community members do not play League of Legends, I do not expect them to be able to appreciate and enjoy League of Legends streams very well. To many SC2 players who tried to watch LoL, it might look boring or uninteresting. It is like Baseball: you need to understand the deeper strategies behind it. Like putting a man into scoring position and the next batter has the capability to hit a fly ball to outfield to score a sac run. It is strategies what makes LoL very exciting to watch and executed. However a lot of these strategies at the same time are interconnected with team skill as well.
Unlike Starcraft II and Dota/2, League of Legends has an intricate design that involves all players to play a role in a team. Very rare can one person handily win a game. Team skill is a huge component here in this game and those who lack team skills will definitely fail. Look at trolls, many of them neglect the fact that they cannot work with other players as a team thus they constantly fail and blame their teammates. Your attitude, communication, leadership & teamwork attribute to your team skills. No other game does this unlike League of Legends. Straight from when you enter champion select, your team skills are in use already. Teams that do not mesh together self-destruct and lose. There are people in League of Legends and outside observers who honestly do not realize or even understand how important team skills are in this game. When EU teams broke out and became on top of NA teams, a lot of this attributed to the teamwork and coordination of a team. When Gambit Gaming broke out from IEM Kiev/Hannover, they were looking like the perfect oiled machine due to their team fighting and team strategies. Their coordination allowed early aggression done that the scene had never seen before while the NA scene still had teams that constantly had persistent infighting amongst each other teammates (Hotshotgg vs Saintvicious, Reginald vs TheRainMan etc.).
In the end, one can conclude that League of Legends, while does not have an exceedingly high mechanical skill cap or entry skill floor like Starcraft II, still has multiple layers of skill sets that is required to play effectively and professionally. Most outsiders who look into League of Legends might not fully understand the complexity the game offers but those who do play will realize it. It is as valid as an esport as any other game that calls itself an esport. Respect that.
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LoL boring imo.
User was warned for this post
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Edit: Nevermind, not worth trying to even start a discussion with a hypocrite.
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An interesting read, and a perennial topic for you DoA. (Not the specific LoL vs. SC2, but the steady drumbeat of "we are all eSports, harmonize and don't get negative with each other.) A word of warning, though, for you... lots of people that sincerely push for togetherness, inclusiveness, and mutual respect wind up taking a beating from those who vocally believe otherwise. So be strong, and keep up the good work! You're better than the haters.
As to the topic at hand... when I read that quote (didn't see the show, and haven't sat down with the VODs yet) I didn't catch the subtext at hand. It could be, but then I think that also says something about the people interpreting it. It implies that WalMart is "less" or "bad" while Whole Foods is "better" - an idea I have never really felt was that true. They're both different, and I think it's more a commentary on the specific *fans* of the games. WalMart is more open (because of their prices and market penetration) to more people, runs 24/7 in many places, and is where a lot of people go to shop. Whole Foods is a more narrow market - it caters to specific tastes, is generally more expensive, and has a certain atmosphere in the store, employees, and patrons. Going to WalMart, you're not likely to run into people that feel that they are "better" because they shop there. On the other hand, going into Whole Foods you will run into people with some interesting beliefs about their worth in part because they are shopping at Whole Foods. (There's a whole host of reasons, arguments, and discussions that can be had on that topic - but not here.)
I read that comparison in a similar vein - LoL has a wider audience, more players, and more of a casual feeling compared to StarCraft 2. StarCraft 2's audience is smaller, more focused on their game, and (sadly) a touch elitist. Both games are different. (Note: I'm talking about just players, not professionals. I expect professional players to be about even in dedication, knowledge, and general skills.) Random players in League are more likely to say "you should do this" to random teammates first, as opposed to "What the hell are you doing? Are you some bronze league noob?" (At least, as far as I can tell - I've run across both in both places. This is anecdotal, not scientific.)
Personally, I enjoy SC2 more than LoL, playing or watching. And some of Riot's business practices I am very unhappy about. But I'm not going to go out of my way to bash on LoL. And Adebisi makes a good point - a talk show is supposed to be pretty free flowing. (The Pulse, I think, is still finding a balance, but is a great show. More "main stream" than its competitors, but still with moments where you think "Did Ben just say that to Lauren?!?") And opinions are part of that.
I think overall shows are tending to err on the side you're advocating DoA - hell, even 2GD generally isn't giving his opinion of LoL and just staying quiet. But I also think that you have to allow free debate in these shows, and good natured poking fun is a part of that. Following a soft poke with a great segment about the subject shows that we can joke amongst ourselves but still conveys an amount of respect for the subject.
TL; dr - We should all get along, but we shouldn't straightjacket public figures' speech because it might reinforce or increase sentiments we don't like.
Also, I shop at Target, which is obviously superior to all others. (So, that would be what? BW in the current metaphor?)
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On February 05 2013 08:08 Falling wrote:Why would you be embarrassed? I like BW and LoL. What now?
hahaha awesome comment is awesome... mixing those two would be like mixing steak and icecream, both the opposite to one another but both still great pieces of food!^^
Great blog by the way, personally I dont like LoL because of the no denying-mechanic (seriously what the eff is up with that...)
but I agree with you, just because I dont like it doesnt mean that others arent allowed to like it.
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On February 05 2013 01:46 Kipsate wrote:
Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
Of course it does, it's the very core of the thread.
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I love SC2 and LOL. At the moment I play a lot of lol and also watch it, but I spent 2 years exclusively watching sc2. Both have their advantages/disadvantages.
Both are great to watch and to play and I hope both of them live on for a long time.
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Holy shit, that musician analogy is perfect.
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If people REALLY cared about skill cap that much then they'd be playing Brood War, not Starcraft 2. But they don't. They just want to be elitists and talk shit about something else to make themselves feel good.
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On February 05 2013 09:27 GolemMadness wrote:
If people REALLY cared about skill cap that much then they'd be playing Brood War, not Starcraft 2. But they don't. They just want to be elitists and talk shit about something else to make themselves feel good.
We have a winner.
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I don't get LoL, if i understood it better, i think theres a better chance i would enjoy playing/watching.
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Not a good idea if it's in March. It will be hyped up, but most games will be like 1 base gimmick plays that end within 10 minutes, since it's a new game and the meta is messy. Korean fans who are used to the long, constant battles of BW will be again disappointed and give up the last hope.
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EPT
