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annul
United States2841 Posts
On January 22 2013 00:16 Vivax wrote: That's cause they suck and everyone knows it . if they are so bad, then attack them. that's what you do when people make shit arguments. that's what i did to yours, after all. but it seems like the rest of the game are afraid to put their nuts on the line. | ||
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annul
United States2841 Posts
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FiveTouch
Marshall Islands1474 Posts
On January 22 2013 00:26 annul wrote: so, the fact nobody is attacking them must mean that they are not shit arguments. but why ignore? How Vivax is playing isn't far outside of his town MO, even though as you point out it isn't always productive. His activity and level of engagement with the thread make him a poor lynch choice for today. In addition, you complain that people aren't addressing your arguments, but you have only talked about Vivax yourself. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
(1) annul, not everyone is ignoring your accusations. A couple folks have expressly disagreed with you. Yes, Toad has been throwing out some pure wifom, but that's ... whatever. It happens in any game. Vivax's vote for sandroba doesn't bother me, I'd rather he run for mayor but actually consider other players legitimate candidates then try and shove his campaign down everyone's throats. That's a POSITIVE thing in my mind, "I want to be mayor but I also want the best candidate to be mayor." Yes, that's only one of your initial issues you had with Vivax, but that did not strike me as a scummy contradiction in his actions. (2) You remember when I said Chez was a legitimate candidate and should at least be considered, then got flak for that? Well, I'm still not voting him. But, reading his posts, I got the feeling that he was one of the few people who has posted that they are running who has done anything beyond "I want to be mayor, if you elect me I will lynch this dude (or that dude)." On January 21 2013 11:00 Chezinu wrote: That. Even if it's bs, even if it's almost nothing. We've seen some general "Ah wil be transparint an gud fer yu." And everyone mayoral candidate has a lynch target. But chez, at least if you trust his statements, is actively thinking about how to be mayor beyond today. Moreso than any other candidate. As mayor, I will be more than just a mayor. I will form a great circle like no one has ever seen. This circle will be protected. This circle will survive! For Chezinu loves his circles. If mafia dares to destroy it, they will be destroyed themselves! Is it enough to vote him? No. But...it looks good. And I wish someone else would have pointed this out, because I think it's actually something worth pulling out of his candidacy versus others. (3) STUTTERS. debears has posted some, but I'm not picking up anything strong one way or another. BUT STUTTERS GUYS HOLY CRAP. He returned with a single post - On January 21 2013 03:20 Stutters695 wrote: This post doesn't make me feel any better.Short posts yes, but it was like two hours into the game. I dropped the questions on toad because he answered and the discussion in the thread cleared it up pretty well for me. I'm catching up on the thread now. When I rolled mafia my first time, I had a hard time not taking this out when accused of being mafia. "Well yes, I've been doing x thing that's scummy, but..." where the "but..." is something WEAK. Stutters does that here, picks out a single thing I didn't like, admits to it, and then "but it was early." It doesn't matter if it's early, plenty of folks wrote long early posts (candidacies, general strategies, etc.). Moreover, JUST LOOK AT THE FRIGGIN' POST AND HIS FILTER. There's been way more discussion, way more to look at, comment on, anything. Stutters hasn't done ANY of that. He pops in, says he's catching up, does NOTHING beyond that. This reads to me like someone who came under some fire, dropped by to address, but has been told to keep his head low. To anyone DEFENDING stutters, or who thinks stutters may be town: On January 21 2013 11:09 DearestSnot wrote: I find the suspicion reasonable but I don't think I would lynch either of those players today. Nor would I lynch stutters, particularly because stutters is a player I would firmly put in the "scummy as town" column. I BELIEVE someone else made a comment that they didn't want to lynch stutters, but I have lost that. If you made that comment, let me know plox. This was the only one I remembered. Let's not lynch stutters because stutters is scummy as town. I know I've said that about players this game. But I don't like it as reasoning not to lynch stutters. He did something scummy, and then the followup has also been scummy. He just dipped in, said he was catching up, dipped out. Gave this really weak response to some weak early pressure on him. To me, it reads EXACTLY like he has been told to lay low. Someone brought up the difference between a mayoral D1 and a normal lynch, where players can hide or play poorly because you won't be under constant scrutiny, the discussion is about the mayor and his lynch instead of who is scummy (to some extent, or at least to the extent that it allows more trolling to go unpunished D1). Stutters is harnessing that. Stutters is staying under the radar, his head way down, and everyone is passing him over for other targets that are ... higher profile or more active. Do not forget stutters. Don't pass him over. Read his filter. Read his response, and ask yourself whether a "yes, but" and "now I'm catching up" into silence feels scummy or towny as a response. Stutters should be the mayoral lynch today. | ||
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FiveTouch
Marshall Islands1474 Posts
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Vivax
21686 Posts
[list] [*] You mention that I attack people out of OMGUS. Why don't you consider the counter-examples in your reasoning? I didn't attack everyone for suspecting me. You should know this best since you were one of them. [*] You think my cases are bad and that I'm scum. That implies two things: You have a town read on JX, and you have a town read on yamato. Is this correct? [*] You didn't push yamato as mayor candidate when he announced it even though I'm your top scumread and you probably think he's town. You don't express a preference for mayor candidates at all, so tell me: Why so disinterested in who gets the spot? Who are your favourite candidates? [*] I am just one possible scum out of five. Did you form any scumreads outside of me? | ||
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Djodref
France3332 Posts
On January 22 2013 00:15 debears wrote: I really do not think you are town djo 1) I said I would not reveal a meta case until you were a serious candidate for lynch. In other words, if a mayor has no good candidates, then I would reveal it. However, I like 5touch's lynch targets for now. 2) I highly doubt you didn't see this response to your quote from LVIII @ debears 1)Ok, but I don't see why it shouldn't be good to post it now as well. You believe I'm scum but you don't try to get me lynch ? 2)This game is different, and given how LVIII was a failure for town, I'm surprised that you don't try to change your playstyle. Town players also wanted to lynch you in that game. | ||
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annul
United States2841 Posts
On January 22 2013 00:45 Vivax wrote: Annul. I have questions. You crave for attention, I will fulfil your desires. [list] [*] You mention that I attack people out of OMGUS. Why don't you consider the counter-examples in your reasoning? I didn't attack everyone for suspecting me. You should know this best since you were one of them. [*] You think my cases are bad and that I'm scum. That implies two things: You have a town read on JX, and you have a town read on yamato. Is this correct? [*] You didn't push yamato as mayor candidate when he announced it even though I'm your top scumread and you probably think he's town. You don't express a preference for mayor candidates at all, so tell me: Why so disinterested in who gets the spot? Who are your favourite candidates? [*] I am just one possible scum out of five. Did you form any scumreads outside of me? first, i do not "crave for attention" nor did i request people ask me questions. i wanted my specific arguments addressed; of which, very, very few people have done so, and of those who have, fewer have done so satisfactorily. but, i am not one to shy away from direct questions, so here we go: 1. "yes, i OMGUSed someone, but then when people FOSed me for OMGUSing that one person, i did not subsequently OMGUS them for FOSing me... therefore, my original OMGUS is not so bad!" <--- if i need to explain why this is a bad line, i dont know what to tell you 2. not correct. i have an anti-town read on you. i have seen the day 1 bus used before, so i am NOT saying one way or the other about JX or yamato right now. 3. i did not push for yamato because i am running and i want to be mayor. also, i did not say i thought "yamato is probably town" so please do not put words in my mouth. 4. i am not disinterested in the spot nor have i been all game; i have been trying to get people to vote for me. my favorite candidate is myself. 5. i have ideas, but none that are worth expounding upon right now, for i am less sure of them than i am of you. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
I had really hoped that mayoral candidates would consider these issues and that i could evaluate their cognitive capacities by how clearly they analyzed or explained them. Also by which bit they happened to leave out. Unfortunately lots has been left out. My analysis of how to play with mayor in the game. 22 players 5 scum KP = scum / 2 rounded up max 2. Mayor with 3 votes. And hence how I will be choosing who to have as mayor. Policies for town... + Show Spoiler + basically dont suck at mafia bacause you have some to to carry the can (leam on/blame) Nothing really changed, just new shiny blue toy to distract you from the power of the VT and his vote. First we are not sheep, and if we are, to the slaughter we should go. Mayor is not an excuse to devolve responsibility and accountability onto one person Mayor does not reduce winning and losing to single mayoral vote Day 1. Well those are things that should be true. The mayor has 3 votes and full executive power D1. This is good if they are town but disastrous if they are scum, .... well yes and no. The three votes will potentially really expose them if they scum and lynch townies The scary bit is, if they kinda just perform, and you keep them on until the LylLo end of the game even if the town+mayor makes few misses. (remember they do not control all the votes.) mayor is then a serious bloody risk, at some point in most normal games if scum doesn't nk the good players you just lynch them done and dusted. What happens if scum don't happen to get the BGs, accidentally on purpose, thus don't lynch the mayor (because hes scum) um what happens now? At what point is the mayor lynchable. And how will town in this late game, remembering that town is now short of vets ever be able to decide? Mathematics of the Game and what the Mayor means. Fail to read this at your peril. Mathematically its serious as a scum Mayor moves LYLO significantly and it can sneak up on you fast. 4 Lynches & nights from now if 2 are mislynches and no nks are blocked AND there are no vigi kills or mod kills, (hey I am being optimistic) The town will be depleted by 10 and scum by 2 Thats 17:5 – 10:2 = 7:3 If one of the three is Mayor that is LYLO (there is till 2Kp at this point) After 5:2 it goes to 4:1 If the mayor is scum that is still LYLO... You can see the statistical power for town to implode in WIFOM is extreme. You need mayor you can read. Not just who the current D1+vet players can read, but the less than half the town that will still be alive if we get to LYLO. Smurfs have a personal policy to deprive me of information, their meta. They probably do it to extend their in game Life span. As they are as likely to roll scum as anyone else, it strikes me as having a scum bias as a pre-game plan while that does not mean smurfs are more likely to be scum, I believe the danger presented by a smurf scum is larger than the benefit of smurf town who lives longer. Just say NO to smurfs for mayor I have policy against smurfs that want to double down on that longevity by wanting to be mayor as well. Lurker policies are best fuzzy as the behaviour is Fuzzy Smurfs are or are not smurfs. I have policy against smurfs playing me by making me risk the entire game on a D1 read they are town. The guys are smurfs for reason the reason is they are good. They are also good at being deceptive. Just say NO to mayors that don't communciate in way that means they take risk rather than you just cow tow to their cases based on dot points and stuff your to dumb to understand because you didn't read the thread the meta or ... No Lurking mayors... well of course not but I mean I want talkative ones that are easier to catch if they lie. I want mayor that I can read that communicates in enough words per post that they contain a sense of flow. Dot point mayors don't communicate trust to me nor do they take the risk I will catch them if they lie. (by lie in in the subtle ways tht show up in extended speech. But not in "hes scum because his meta changed" See recent case i am still not sure if an actual meta behavior changed or if it was only ever the policy that didnt quite match behavior ever. I have policy against mayors that don't take their share of the Risk, They take that by risking us catching them if they are scum by talking enough, No wordy mayors who dont give me plethora of ways to ctach them if their scum dont get my vote. unvote vote Gonzaw As stated it really late I need to chek that vote but its an improvement in line with the policy over Chezinu. WTF was my vote doing there if I knew this? it was doing hat i said it was i anted to see if Chezinu would change enough to satisfy me. (he had slightly different Chezinu criteria that he did not meet) (BTW I dont know what the criteria were just they were different feel based) I will review my vote when i wake up. I believe I was not entirely unpleased with the lynch candidates but it was a D1 lynch so they are all pretty thin and the stats are against us. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On January 22 2013 00:44 FiveTouch wrote: So, I generally agree with this. I'll back off pushing that point. I've seen frustrated scumteams when one member who's semi-inactive gets suspicion on him early, but you're right, the general mood in QT then is to try and get the guy to be more active. austin, scumteams don't tell someone to stop posting when they're potentially in trouble. Especially they don't tell them that once the guy said he's catching up on the thread, that he shouldn't post again. Unsure if the amount of pressure that stutters has gotten this game really amounts to much though, so I'd like to try and get some focus back on him. Really one of the only defensive comments that I can remember is Bugs saying he's often scummy as town. I'm not satisfied with that, and I still don't like stutters play, even if you take out the thought that others might be telling him to keep his head down. Do you think that without that point stutters looks fine? Just looks like an inactive dude? As to your lynch candidates, I don't like the contradiction part of the case on prplhz. Yes, he said he didn't like policy lynches and now ran on lynching chezinu. But I don't think all contradictions are scummy, and I don't think contradictory quotes from months ago in a different game + quotes from this game are particularly strong. Both the policy lynch quotes AND the early bullshit at the start of a game quotes span different games and a couple months. There's more merit to the second than the first, people say all sorts of bullshit about policy lynches, but actively saying you're against dumb/flashy entrances to get the game moving and then saying you often do that...is more troubling. In some ways, you reconcile the second contradiction with your own filter-diving of prplhz, though. You grabbed a lot of flashy entrances, or peculiar entrances to threads, and they were from scum games. It's pretty clear that his play does not match up with his statement that he doesn't like starting games off in a certain way to get discussion going, or at least you seem to be saying that with your above post. You think only scum prplhz starts off that way and town prplhz actually practices what he previously preached? Or do you think prplhz's comment about not liking bullshit at the start of the game is bullshit itself? | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
Yep. there is no half way on smurfing. FiveTouch: You can hold me accountable for my actions through my reads and how I make and push them. yep likewise for me. FiveTouch: My play in this game will stand for itself. If this isn't enough for you, then don't elect me as mayor. Its not only up to me but yeah i cant see how i can vote for you given what I believe. perhaps one day i will be nailed to cross for it when or if i want to smurf. Hopefully i will have a counter argument to this if I do. I hope if one day I smurf I will continue to argue smurfs should not double down and be mayor. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Some assorted reasons you should vote me: (1) I found that kittens stuff in the OP. (2) I often write walls of text, but they are legible. (3) I tend to be pretty clear with my thought processes. You may find them absurd (red check on Sandroba in paranoia comes to mind), but I almost always explain my reads and my actions in ways that you can follow. (4) I am thinking about the game longer term than today's lynch. I've noted that the the masons in this game are going to be of particular importance to the mayoral position, as he's likely to get masoned by most/all of them, and needs to know who is scum/town and what information to give out/trust coming in. I think I have toned down my paranoia, but have a healthy sense of mistrust and am relatively difficult to sway. I don't currently plan on setting up some town circle immediately, but I at least notice that Chezinu was talking about that, again...I'm thinking about the mayor position as more than just a lynch today. (5) I will sometimes post paint pictures. But not scum-BH-getting-lynched amounts. (6) I am generally pretty involved in the games I play. I will not be an absentee. (7) You know who I am. I don't think smurfing should disqualify someone from running, nor should being a crazy-play-loving enigma. But you can go through my games, see my posting style, see how I'm usually trying to figure things out, and some of you have a decent handle on how I play from being with me in those games. There's slightly more accountability there, if you're into that. NOW. Check this out. Here are reasons you should NOT vote me. (1) Next Saturday I will be almost entirely unavailable. I don't want an inactive mayor, and I don't want someone who will miss a full cycle. Saturday will be the first half of D3, so ... it's not a full cycle, but that's an important consideration. I have not seen any other candidate discuss their availability, and I don't like the idea that we could elect someone and have them go MIA for a bit. (2) In sort of the same vein, I'm a little behind at work. I will absolutely put in the time if I'm mayor, but I'm not entirely sure how much I can actually play during like 8 AM - 7 PM or so EST. I can read up, and I can post some, but I can't promise to be able to give the game the full treatment during those hours. (3) In the past I have been both overly paranoid AND stupid when I try to scheme. Those are not qualities that you want in a mayor. However, and this part is positive, I have specifically tried to temper those qualities, and in the games that I've played more recently I think I've done okay with that. I felt like I was a good threat-quality monitor and positive influence on...GSL mini 3? Tried specifically to improve my play and the thread itself, rather than just make reads, and I think that was good for the game. Tried to use my abilities to help town in the recent world-swapping mafia, and felt like I did okay with that (noticed things were dead D1, used my ability to try and make things un-dead, but didn't follow through enough after doing so). Ymmv on how much I can actually consciously temper my paranoia and sometimes-stupidity though. I think that's an honest assessment of how my play makes me both a good and bad mayor. I'm still currently looking at stutters as my lynch candidate. Right now on the to-do list is: (1) Look at stutters past games, does he feel scummy as town? If so, does he seem scummy in those games in the same way he seems scummy in this game? (Can feel scummy for different reasons, "scummy as town" is no good, but "looks scummy for x as town and looks scummy for x here" is better). (2) Look more at prplhz, since there's a sizeable group on him. I don't like some of the case on him, but it's got some valid points and shouldn't be ignored. (3) Try and find some little things. Chez thinking about the future, toad early on thinking about solving the game, little bits and pieces that are interesting or can help us get better reads on specific players. (4) Look at Gonzaw hard. If he's town, I think he'd be a solid mayor. He can get caught up in his own scheming just like I can, but he's shown an ability to be able to direct a game/faction if put into a position of power, and that's, again, a valuable quality to have in a mayor. I do not want scumGonzaw in that position though, at all. So he's a lot like Chez for me, in that I really don't want to risk mayor Gonzaw unless we're pretty certain of his alignment. | ||
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annul
United States2841 Posts
any time you post, just put a word cap on it. literally any time you decide to post, please include a tl;dr of every main idea you are writing about. every time you post you come in with this explosion of who the fuck knows what and i am not in the mood to sift through the crazy just to see if there is anything worthwhile. it is perfectly possible to be succinct and communicate multiple ideas in different words. | ||
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Vivax
21686 Posts
Gonzaw isn't trustworthy for shoveling shit at me for being absent after my candidacy like JX did + trying to be overly politically correct to everyone. austin isn't trustworthy for using artificial reasons to defend JX and picking stutters as lynch candidate. Austin used the argument: "Slight paranoia is townie" cause he wrote something about a Toad jester. Austin clearly didn't give a shit about JXs alignment from the start. That's my interpretation. FT already pointed out that this was a mistake. Seriously, stay the fuck away from gonzaw and austin. I'd rather have Chezinu mayor than these two. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On January 21 2013 11:24 Chezinu wrote: oh so you are running? Oh and look, you do remember me quoting you and telling you that I was going to lynch prpl based on the Chezinu Rule. what the hell is the chezinu rule? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16627 Posts
He also stood up to lurky sandro early about JX when he couldve ignored the incident. That is one of the reasons I have a town tell on him. I also agree with his lynch target now that I read his reasoning and Stutter's filter. Stutter's posted 4 posts and just disappeared, I feel that as a town player, his start wouldve been continued through the thread but it was not to be which makes me think that he is putting up a front of activity at the start to allay all suspicions then lurking his way through the rest of the game. Vote: Austinmcc | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On January 22 2013 01:23 Vivax wrote: Sandro pointed out that that was a mistake, not FT. Because I actively wanted to follow up with Sandro and see why we'd had a difference of opinion in reading that first JX post.I don't care if the elected roles are smurf, they have to be vets, and they have to be trustworthy. Gonzaw isn't trustworthy for shoveling shit at me for being absent after my candidacy like JX did + trying to be overly politically correct to everyone. austin isn't trustworthy for using artificial reasons to defend JX and picking stutters as lynch candidate. Austin used the argument: "Slight paranoia is townie" cause he wrote something about a Toad jester. Austin clearly didn't give a shit about JXs alignment from the start. That's my interpretation. FT already pointed out that this was a mistake. Seriously, stay the fuck away from gonzaw and austin. I'd rather have Chezinu mayor than these two. Do you actually think the paranoia bullet point was an "artificial reason"? Or do you think that was an honest mistake? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
Some short reasons:
I view Gonzaw as townie because of the above. I know that a lot of those points are all the same thing, in that Gonzaw is never just stopping at a response or an explanation, but continuing to make reads or push his reads. Even so, I like that, and the fact that he's constantly doing that makes it feel more genuine and townie to me. | ||
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Vivax
21686 Posts
As vet you should know best about sandros accuracy, and you making such a mistake while analysing sandros scumread shows that you were sloppy where you shouldn't be. It was a big mistake. We don't have a jester, and you didn't follow JXs line of thought. Following the line of thought is essential in finding scum, so I assume you didn't have that intention when commenting on his post, intention you should have when sandro points it out and you are town. | ||
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FiveTouch
Marshall Islands1474 Posts
On January 22 2013 01:04 austinmcc wrote: So, I generally agree with this. I'll back off pushing that point. I've seen frustrated scumteams when one member who's semi-inactive gets suspicion on him early, but you're right, the general mood in QT then is to try and get the guy to be more active. Unsure if the amount of pressure that stutters has gotten this game really amounts to much though, so I'd like to try and get some focus back on him. Really one of the only defensive comments that I can remember is Bugs saying he's often scummy as town. I'm not satisfied with that, and I still don't like stutters play, even if you take out the thought that others might be telling him to keep his head down. Do you think that without that point stutters looks fine? Just looks like an inactive dude? As to your lynch candidates, I don't like the contradiction part of the case on prplhz. Yes, he said he didn't like policy lynches and now ran on lynching chezinu. But I don't think all contradictions are scummy, and I don't think contradictory quotes from months ago in a different game + quotes from this game are particularly strong. Both the policy lynch quotes AND the early bullshit at the start of a game quotes span different games and a couple months. There's more merit to the second than the first, people say all sorts of bullshit about policy lynches, but actively saying you're against dumb/flashy entrances to get the game moving and then saying you often do that...is more troubling. In some ways, you reconcile the second contradiction with your own filter-diving of prplhz, though. You grabbed a lot of flashy entrances, or peculiar entrances to threads, and they were from scum games. It's pretty clear that his play does not match up with his statement that he doesn't like starting games off in a certain way to get discussion going, or at least you seem to be saying that with your above post. You think only scum prplhz starts off that way and town prplhz actually practices what he previously preached? Or do you think prplhz's comment about not liking bullshit at the start of the game is bullshit itself? austin, I agree Stutters doesn't look good, and agree with what you said, apart from what I highlighted already. My issue with a Stutters lynch is that it's very similar to prplhz (bad entrance, bad followup), except prplhz has done more and worse than Stutters, so he's a better lynch. In the town games I looked at from prplhz, I did not find one instance of him entering in a 'trolly' way, as opposed to the multitude of scumgames provided. This is why I have asked prplhz to provide me with an example - I don't think it exists. | ||
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