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On January 05 2013 11:36 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 11:17 zarepath wrote:On January 05 2013 11:11 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've said multiple times a vote on TeMiL is wasted right now. I am trying to discern why you say that switching my vote from TeMiL to you is bad play. I personally think it was fine, but I would like to hear your reasoning and not necessarily because I'm trying to out you as scum with your answer. it wasn't necessarily about the vote coming off TeMiL, I feel its more about not explaining yourself and just throwing it out there. If you are willing to go over why you changed your vote using your own reasoning and not just because of Mocsta's post I'd feel a lot better about it.
I completely agree with Omni question. Your vote had 0 justification, you didnt even admit you were sheeping.
This is not acceptable town behaviour
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Lol.. because he reiterated my TeMiL case...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=17#335
go figure.
On January 05 2013 12:22 Spaghetticus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 11:23 Sylencia wrote:
If Temil is scum, there is another teammate to worry about. All that needs to happen is that Temil listens to them, and bandwagon to the appropriate vote. It is not 6/1 as you say it is, it would still be 6/2. You have to remember that while he has no influence in our discussions, he still holds a vote. If he is scum, that is a potentially powerful vote.
If Temil is town, no one is guiding him. He will not be voting in a very rational manner, he will not be reading our posts and cases, instead making his own (as you can see from his posts, he has made a few random accusations at you and Jampi) and voting off that. This is NOT the situation we want to be in, because if we reach a stalemate during the next vote, we would have to see how Temil votes.
Assuming we have 2 scum and a townie on one person, and townies voting on town, we would be leaving it up to a 50/50 chance he understands the situation, and votes the right one. Not the best odds.
Taking it further if he is town: He probably won't be killed because he is a liability to town. You're now in a 3-2 situation. Do you want to have Temil be the decider of the game? This is sound analysis, you are really speaking my language with this post. His vote is actually more powerful since he doesn't have to justify it in any way. In regard to influence it is 6/1, but in terms of voting it is more like 6/2.5 (2.5 is mean to represent TemiL's more powerful vote, it's more powerful than a single vote but not as powerful as two). TeMiL holding the balance of power as town does not worry me. Scum has exactly the same handicap in their voting, they have no clue where his vote will land. Approximately the same options for circumvention are available to both scum and town. Scum have more solid powers of premeditation, and can therefore invest more into outcome certainty, but this commitment to a lynch comes at a price of providing information. For town, I know I will be micromanaging the lynch to ensure one of my reads goes down, and I expect other town will want to do the same. You are correct in assessing TeMiL as a detriment to town, the question now becomes whether this negative is outweighed by anyone else's play. Oh crap. There are no vigilantes this game. A vigikill would be perfect for this occasion. I have actually been hoping that there was a vigilante present and listening, but I guess this goes to show I should pay more attention to the OP. There are also no medics... This makes Mocsta's fate almost certain... How frustrating. Regardless, your analysis is impressive Syl, this improves your standing substantially in my eyes. I am wary of you deliberately catering to the known disposition of one of your threats, but that is good play for both town and scum.
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On January 05 2013 12:14 cDgCorazon wrote:
How about you answer the questions given to you before you demand anything from us Moc.
It is answered now..
Thus the below stands...
On January 05 2013 12:12 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 09:55 OmniEulogy wrote:
I think TeMiL's case should be looked at during D2 and we need to put some serious attention on him. Get him to put down all his thoughts on what happened D1 during N1. We Need him to start contributing. How convenient OE. I havn't read the whole thread, but now know StriX was VT. Cora /Spag better build some pressure/cases on you like that promised. I am not going to let you target TeMiL to lower your suspicion.,
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I know why you delayed your case on OE, but do you think that it was wise to post it right before the deadline? You had a choice to either pursue it late D1, or early N1. You chose to put it late in D1, where it could cause a lot of confusion, and certainly make for an interesting hour.
I have three theories as to why you made the choice. They are:
1. You are town, and truly feel like OE is scum. Wanted to get OE lynched early and get the town on a good start by lynching a scum.
2. You are scum, and wanted to attack OE, hoping that everyone would think that attacking OE = Defending StriX (which it really does not).
3. You are scum, and have noted the tendencies from XXXIII (because you have been making reads on others (myself included) because of XXXIII) for the town to switch onto a bandwagon really quickly in the latter parts of the day. Using this to get OE taken out D1 would help you out greatly, as you could keep pointing out what you said in your argument to defend yourself for mislynching and get a disorganized town to look away from you.
Please feel free to answer these possible theories while I work on what you have asked me to do.
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On January 05 2013 12:31 OmniEulogy wrote:
do you know how to post facts or only your personal opinions mocsta? So far this game its a severe letdown. Cora's been playing extremely well and I didn't even remotely come close to calling him scum did I? Get over yourself, Your opinions are not facts.
Nice attempt to get an emotional reaction out of me OmniEulogy.
Toadesstern is a wise coach obviously.
Where did I say you said Cora is scum..? You talk about posting facts, prove this then.
As for your StriX case stinking majorly.
I wish this was personal opinion OmniEulogy.. I really wish it was..
Unfortunately, your StriX case stinking.. was fact.. undeniable fact.
See here..http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=21#414
Go see point (9)
Incase you are too lazy..
"The vote on StriX.
Starts off copy/pasting my comments. Goes back into policy lynch talking.. Seriosly Omni... future games you roll as town, you need to let it go man.... Justification regarding StriX->zarepath is weak, but passable as a town motivation.
Then finishes off with more policy talk. I assumed he realised the justification for the vote was weak, so decided to spruce it up with some policy justification.
Weak overall, and lacking conviction..
Wait a sec, didnt my guide on scum hunting, suggest we don't call out early town reads, because mafia can easily do it because they arent lying... whereas, its hard for mafia to build a detailed case, because naturally they have to lie (to vote a townie)... hmmmm
its coming to gether.
SCREAMING SCUM!"
You know, between my case and the lynch I can excuse you for not reading the whole case. It was posted with (in due fairness [kind of]) limited time.
But between the lynch and now.. its inexcusable...
@OmniEulogy
P.S i (and the remainder) of town still want an answer to my case.. point (8)
Curiously you throw in Jampi as a slight town read.. you have had minimal interactions with this person, and he is the prime target for several others in the thread.. and in genearl his post count is lacking... I would love a detailed explanation on this one.
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On January 05 2013 12:30 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 11:19 Spaghetticus wrote:
@Corazon
My response to your second post was an attempt to lead you into Mocsta's honey pot.
You took Mocsta's bait, but responded pretty will IMO. I think you ignored mine, which was also the right move. Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 11:19 Spaghetticus wrote:
You took Mocsta's bait, but responded pretty will IMO. I think you ignored mine, which was also the right move. Spaghetticus, you are constantly inserting my name and scum in the same sentences. I am not going to bother inserting the posts, because I would run out of page space...(read through the filter search Mocsta, and it is evident) If you have a problem with me, and the way I am operating.. Call me out directly, and make a case. Otherwise, you are trying to influence individuals in a deceptive manner. I think everyone can agree that is NOT town-like. (For the record, I don't even know what your "honey-pot" is referring to)
If I am doing this I am unaware. The post you quoted above, is actually me talking about your [b]TOWN[/b} behaviour. Let me explain:
The honeypot is a ploy where a town seduces a scum into revealing himself by making an obvious minor blunder. If someone tries to come in and inflate the minor mistake into a major one when this is outside your read on them, then you have likely found reason to suspect them. A mafia wants to put emphasis on irrelevant or clumsily executed arguments, rather than ones that actually contribute to catching them.
If this style sounds familiar, that is because I claimed this exact ploy earlier when explaining my 'slip'. My honeypot was more improvisation than anything, as I actually wanted to know about the mafia QT, but it was a honeypot none the less.
Note: honeypot is my word for it, I like to use flowery language. There is probably a canon phrase for this maneuver in the guides, but I do not know it.
I have noticed several times that you make seemingly deliberate mistakes using yourself as bait, for presumably this reason. I identified your crude 100% read to be exactly that: an invitation for deliberate misinterpretation. Seeing Corazon being reasonable about it, I decided to rebait the trap to see if I could get a read, but this also failed.
As you can now see, the post you used to represent your read of me being a peripheral pathway scum marketer is a misinterpretation. I have no intention of attacking you pre-day two as I know there is no point. I will admit that I want people to keep in mind that while you are a strong town read, you are NOT confirmed town. Your approach is so systematic that it is my opinion that, like myself, you decide on your playstyle before you receive your role. This makes a good town but also a resilient mafia. I am not implying I have a scum read on you, I am saying that your play would be very similar regardless of whether you were mafia or town, which means we should not be too hasty in giving you a positive town read despite your obvious contributions.
I just F5ed and realised you'd made a remark on Syl's analysis, claiming it is not OC. I will now go check this.
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On January 05 2013 12:51 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 12:14 cDgCorazon wrote:
How about you answer the questions given to you before you demand anything from us Moc. It is answered now.. Thus the below stands... Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 12:12 Mocsta wrote:On January 05 2013 09:55 OmniEulogy wrote:
I think TeMiL's case should be looked at during D2 and we need to put some serious attention on him. Get him to put down all his thoughts on what happened D1 during N1. We Need him to start contributing. How convenient OE. I havn't read the whole thread, but now know StriX was VT. Cora /Spag better build some pressure/cases on you like that promised. I am not going to let you target TeMiL to lower your suspicion.,
I should add that I'm not targeting TeMiL as a scum suspect. I asked him those questions to get him to contribute. I believe trying to figure out what he is atm is useless. Maybe after he answers those questions we'll be able to have some sort of read but I'm not getting my hopes up. Just Keep thinking what you will though.
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On January 05 2013 12:54 cDgCorazon wrote:
I know why you delayed your case on OE, but do you think that it was wise to post it right before the deadline? You had a choice to either pursue it late D1, or early N1. You chose to put it late in D1, where it could cause a lot of confusion, and certainly make for an interesting hour.
I have three theories as to why you made the choice. They are:
1. You are town, and truly feel like OE is scum. Wanted to get OE lynched early and get the town on a good start by lynching a scum.
2. You are scum, and wanted to attack OE, hoping that everyone would think that attacking OE = Defending StriX (which it really does not).
3. You are scum, and have noted the tendencies from XXXIII (because you have been making reads on others (myself included) because of XXXIII) for the town to switch onto a bandwagon really quickly in the latter parts of the day. Using this to get OE taken out D1 would help you out greatly, as you could keep pointing out what you said in your argument to defend yourself for mislynching and get a disorganized town to look away from you.
Please feel free to answer these possible theories while I work on what you have asked me to do.
I am heading out after this response.
I suggest you post your reads to the coaches, I think they will advise you are theory crafting too hard..
Answering your questions.
(1) Agreed. Move on.
(2) I think this is pointless to be honest.StriX was town, and had majority, which is scum agenda. Why would I jeapardise that and put myself in the limelight. Again, you dont like one of my actoins.. why dont you comment on my behaviour teh whole game and tell me you if that scum behaviuor in general.
I thnk its obvious I post ab-lib and do not proof-read... dont you think natural behaviour comes out that way.. have a think about that.
(3) Man.. I had a reason at the start to talk about Newbie33.. but if you noticed I havnt done it since the first 12 hours. I am sorry the vote for 24hrs has plagued you, perhaps I would try a different approach next game.
If i may say one thing about Newbie 33.. at the end game.
Hapa said to Cakepie.. you are making this too complicated. The game is simple, find scum,and lynch them.
You are makign this too complicated.. Yes it would be awesome if I was a mastermind mafia,.. but I am an ab-lib poster...and I think time woudl be best spent elsewhere.
[i.e. have a think about who hasn't responded to the Day1 lynch..]
I gotta go.. see ya
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So this doesnt get lost.. because to me this is critical.
@OmniEulogy
On January 05 2013 13:00 Mocsta wrote:
@OmniEulogy
i (and the remainder) of town still want an answer to my case.. point (8)
Curiously you throw in Jampi as a slight town read.. you have had minimal interactions with this person, and he is the prime target for several others in the thread.. and in genearl his post count is lacking... I would love a detailed explanation on this one.
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I was comparing him to the other players in question at that point in time. StriX, Syl, Zare, and TeMiL. I felt that his contribution had been much greater with an equal post count to StriX and I was giving him some benefit due to his country the same as what we've done for TeMiL to a certain extent. He's in the middle in terms of time zones, I think it would be difficult to really be able to hit peak time to communicate with us regularly.
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I do have a few problems with your arguments Mocsta, and I will explain them below.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 05 2013 09:03 Mocsta wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 04 2013 12:32 OmniEulogy wrote:
Talkative bunch.
Alright...
Vote: Zarepath you left us with a nice case on syl, I don't agree with most of it but it was a decent case and he responded to it very well. However you left right after ruining the chance of any immediate conversation that might have stemmed from it. Your position on a no-lynch is a factor in my vote as well, it just isn't a town mindset. Also claiming that a no-lynch vote is not even at play any more is a bad attempt to bury something that is very much a factor in how D1 plays out. Again not a town mindset.
You attack Sylencia largely on ideas that promote strong town behavior like his willingness to lynch lurkers in certain situations but otherwise always going for his scum reads. Almost everything you said about him applies to yourself in terms of posting, in which he is ahead in terms of quality and quantity.
##FoS: Strix lack of everything from you so far. You are a close second to Zare.
@Everybody What do you think about the case made against Syl? How do you feel about Mocsta leading discussion and his vote on Cora? How do you feel Cora responded to the vote. How has he given himself any credibility as town afterwards. (Cora please feel free to answer this one as well)
And lastly in answer to asking if making a contributions list if town vs scum it could be either. We had Shz in NMM XXXIII attempt a similar thing as VT and I've watched mafia players pretend to contribute by doing the same thing in other games. The point to be made aware of is that Mocsta has also lead discussions and is not ONLY making those posts. (3) Your vote starts off as a disagreement of zarepath case to Sylencia. You then change gears and bring the justification back to policy. Sounds to me, your deadset on a bullshit reason to lynch this guy. i.e. policy dispute... The question is, are you that prejudice against LAL policy, you would pursue that as your top scum read... OR... do you vote for the policy because of your prejudice, which allows you to vote with conviction.. an important trait as mafia. I find it further curious that you make a vote, and then post a FoS.. Lets say you believe it, you know from Newbie 33 lessons learned, not to make association cases. I think this is a nice attempt to follow/start a bandwagon on StriX, and give your self a lurker bait out with StriX.. in reality at that point in time it could have been Strix, TeMiL, jampidampi; I think you randomly chose StriX.
This is the first part of your argument I have a problem with. You're saying here (I've cut out the last part because it does not pertain to what I am about to say) that OE's post basically is saying that he disagrees with Zare on his read of Syl and that the only other reason that he is voting for Zare is because he believes in voting no-lynch. However, you must have missed the middle part of his accusation, where he says:
You attack Sylencia largely on ideas that promote strong town behavior like his willingness to lynch lurkers in certain situations but otherwise always going for his scum reads. Almost everything you said about him applies to yourself in terms of posting, in which he is ahead in terms of quality and quantity.
He's accusing Zare of attacking Syl for the wrong reasons, and of being hypocritical in his accusations of Syl. If you read between the lines, I think he was suspicious of this because it was a weak case, and scum tend to make weak cases (because they have to fabricate lies, which is hard to do when you're only basing things off of half a day's worth of play). So attacking this post as fluff and policy just is not true.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 05 2013 04:33 OmniEulogy wrote:
##Unvote: Zarepath given the three/four pages I need to catch up in and what I have read so far I don't believe my vote should still rest on Zare for this lynch. I think he has now contributed more than several others and it would be worse for town to lose him at this moment. I think TeMiL is just really bad town so I wont be voting for him either. I'll have a longer post written up shortly.
Also spag I only read your last post as writing this and I have no idea what you are talking about. I think you have this made up illusion that I have something against you because of NMM XXXIII. Get over it. You are trying to get people to think that we can't agree on anything and that our opinions will always be different. As I know I am town, I can only see it as a move to try to divide townies and get us to lose faith in each other, please stop or I'll assume its scum motivated instead of you dwelling too much on the past. (7) Interesting. The justification is quite weak to remove the vote.. He has contributed? big whoop, this is a piss poor attempt to move onto another target. You are admitting here your actual vote justification was weak, or even just sheeping. Again, how does that help town win? You never post your write-up either... I am on the thread 3-4hrs later, and its not there, what we get is a summary.
[/spoiler]
If you're expecting OE to find all of the scum D1, you're crazy. You can't expect him to be right on every vote. Sometimes, when people are pressured, they step up their game, and OE thought that Zare had stepped up, and decided that there were better targets to pursue that Zare.
Of course, you don't like pressure votes, do you?
No such thing as official pressure vote. A vote is the intention to lynch. Treat it that way. (at least publically)
So if we are all heeding your advice, you have intended to have me, TeMiL, and OE lynched. Aren't you guilty of switching votes as well?
+ Show Spoiler +
(9)
The vote on StriX.
Starts off copy/pasting my comments. Goes back into policy lynch talking.. Seriosly Omni... future games you roll as town, you need to let it go man.... Justification regarding StriX->zarepath is weak, but passable as a town motivation.
Then finishes off with more policy talk. I assumed he realised the justification for the vote was weak, so decided to spruce it up with some policy justification.
Weak overall, and lacking conviction..
Wait a sec, didnt my guide on scum hunting, suggest we don't call out early town reads, because mafia can easily do it because they arent lying... whereas, its hard for mafia to build a detailed case, because naturally they have to lie (to vote a townie)... hmmmm
its coming to gether.
SCREAMING SCUM!
Omni has approximately 30 posts. I have chosen to pass through 9 key posts. Maybe some in general read null. But if you take all the 9 posts as a sum of contributions.. the result is zilch. Its all fluff revolving around policy, and copy/paste <insert participant post>.
This screams of scum play to me, and if you are not voting Omni, you better have a damn good reason not to.
This is the part that I have the most problems with. You say that his accusations of StriX are just copy and paste, along with some policy talk. If that was the case, no one would have voted for StriX, and someone else would have died. However, 3 people agreed with him. This means that his accusations were more than copy and paste + policy. You cannot just accuse him of not contributing, because that's entirely false.
The last part I have a problem with is the last line:
This screams of scum play to me, and if you are not voting Omni, you better have a damn good reason not to.
You simply cannot do this if you are town. You're boxing everyone who does not vote for OE into the "anti-town" section, and everyone who does into the "pro-town" section. You're basically saying, "vote OE, or else you are scum and I will make a case against you". If you think that everyone who did not vote for OE is scum, please go ahead and make that case (seeing as TeMiL is 100% town to you, that makes 5/8 people here suspicious to you for not voting OE).
I agree with some of your points, but there are others which need to be fixed if you want to convince me OE is scum. I'm not shut out to the idea, I just think that you need to make a full case instead of half a case, and the rest exaggerations. I believe that over time, you can find more scummy things on OE, and at the point you wish to share your thoughts on him again, I would be happy to read them over and point out where I disagree. Just next time, don't do it an hour before the lynch.
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EBWOP: ...point out where I disagree, if I do have disagreements.
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@Mocsta and Syl
I was intending on doing a play by play, but I now think it unnecessary and largely irrelevant. Mocsta you are correct in that what Syl said had already been largely covered by you. He was able to take your broad strokes and turn them into a precise analysis that actually influenced my thought patters. This is the first time this game that I have had to really rethink my approach because I thought someone else had done a better job at thinking than me. Further still, despite the strength of his communication, he still managed to under appreciate his own arguments. A scum tries to emphasise his points beyond their relevance, Syl did not do this, preferring a quiet analysis. Mocsta your playstyle is overwhelmingly enthusiastic, but this means you tend to only communicate your reads on a comparatively shallow level (this is not a bad thing, you’re still extremely pro-town). Syl has managed to take your initial read, and developed it beyond what you communicated, which is pro-town. He also went into scenarios of where TeMiL was an effective scum, when before this scenario was presumed a non-issue.
While I was silly to attribute the entire post as OC, I stand by this post giving a pro-town vibe. I am sorry for not recognising your contribution, though quite frankly I think this is no longer in question.
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On Phone.
Completely agree. I have a good read on Sylencia too.
I just didnt want it lost that was why I voted for temil... it appeared everyone glanced over that.
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Okay so guys, we need analysis of the events leading up to the mislynch on Styx. This will require a lot of groundwork, but anyone that complies will be taking a very large step in confirming themselves as town.
I had a quick read backwards, and it looks like posts relevant to the lynch start on page 17 with Dandel Ion's vote count.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 04 2013 21:39 Dandel Ion wrote:
Votecount:
zarepath (2): OmniEulogy, Sylencia
TeMiL (1): StriX
StriX (1): jampidampi
Not voting (5): cDgCorazon, zarepath, Spaghetticus, TeMiL, Mocsta
Currently, zarepath is set to be lynched! 12 hours 20 minutes remaining in day 1.
Just as a reminder, day 1 deadline will be at 01:00 GMT (+00:00), because of the performed YOLO.
As you can see, only preliminary votes are present, and shortly afterwards shit gets real with three vote changes on the same page, including Mocsta's big post on TeMiL. The lynch on Stix is completed on page 23, so that's seven pages to analyse. The current most townie players have all done far more than this, it is not that big of an ask. I would ask that Corazon, Mocsta, and myself do not contribute our analysis until everyone has had a chance. We have already provided enough contribution to not be called scummy for holding back our reads, we need to give an opportunity for others to do the same. That means we want to see analysis from:-
- Jamp
- Syl
- Omni
- Zare
Day two cases will be based on this analysis, it is of utmost importance. On top of holding back your analysis, I want Corazon, mocsta, and myself to prepare wills before the upcoming NK. We have a 50% chance of there actually being a JK, then that JK has to correctly identify the scum that will carry out the NK without being roleblocked. One of us dies tonight. With the information available to me I expect it to be Mocsta, but scum have more information to work with and could find any number of reasons to NK Corazon or myself. These wills ARE a big ask, as they need to be submitted very close to the deadline so a s not to influence the NK, and need to provide info on why you think you got lynched, and any scum reads you have been keeping to yourself.
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Would you like TeMiL to contribute as well? I saw that you didn't list his name there...
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Everything TeMiL has contributed has only served to clutter up the thread. I have not seen him post a single thing that I consider even vaguely relevant, and so expect his future posts to be the same.
I hold nothing against TeMiL, he is in over his head. Once he has a better mastery of the language I think Mafia would be a great game for him to play. Until that day, he will only confuse threads and weaken town. I am not interested in anything he has to say, as, unlike a more typical lurker, I believe he does not actually possess the capacity to meaningfully contribute, thus, I do not encourage him to contribute.
My God I am a jerk...
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That was poorly written but you get the point. If TeMiL is lynched it won't be as a result of a scumtell, it will pretty much be a policy lynch based on the balance of probabilities of a categorically useless player damaging town more than a more mundane scum read or lurker lynch.
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Just to confirm, you want me to post analysis on what happened between the two vote counts? I'll get started on that soon, once I settle down again, but it won't be for another couple of hours at least as I have a few things to finish.
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EPT
