On November 15 2012 02:28 Hapahauli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Catchin-up catchin-up:
@ SnBWhy are you voting the claimed JK? I understand that his claim makes little sense from a town perspective, but it makes even less sense from a scum perspective. Claiming JK in that circumstance is just about the worst thing you can do, not to mention just about the worst role to claim. If he's alive after a cycle or two, it's probably worth looking into him. But today, he's a pretty bad lynch target.
Regarding DarthPunkHe's very uncharacteristically inactive for his town play, but the same applies to his scum play. I hate having no solid opinion on him, but he's very null to me. His inactivity is not alignment indicative. He's been rather whiny as of late too, but that's pretty unusual for him as either alignment as well. Lynching him is flipping a coin, and I have stronger scumreads than him atm.
Regarding Hopeless1derI haven't considered him as much. All I know is that he has a propensity for lurking regardless of alignment. However, I think he's town because of the attention he's getting from debears
Regarding debearsPretty convinced he's scum at this point, especially after his last few posts: On November 14 2012 14:15 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 10:13 Hapahauli wrote:On November 14 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote:
i'm starting to ponder debears also Looking at debears, there's not much to say other than there's not much substance in his 4-page filter. Lots of short, 1/2 line posts with banter. He jumps on Hopeless really quickly, who's one of the easier targets in the game. He's then pretty quick to jump on iamperfection, and has been pushing that "read" since. As previously stated, his "vote post" looks like an overkill-case. But the thing that really sticks out to me is that he's been tunneling iamperfection for the last few hours yet still has his vote on Hopeless. He's using a lot of strong language against iamperfection (much stronger than against hopeless), and from his filter it looks like iamperfection is his top scumread. At this point he's much more content to push the read on iamperfection than his one on Hopeless, and I see no townie reason why his vote isn't where his mouth is. ##Unvote##Vote debears If you look at my posting before the iamp stuff, I was focused on Hopeless. However, Hopeless failed to post much after that, and he still has. I feel like his lecturing + lack of posting is much more scum indicative than iamp's posting, hence my vote on hopeless and not iamp 1 And about the one liners. It was the first 14-18 hours of d1. Not much to go off of for big cases, especially with thrawn, dp, hopeless, kickstart, and crossfire contributing minimally. Wow that's 5/13 players. Hey thats more than 1/3 of the game!!!!!!!!!!!! Amazing Hapa, why are you focusing me over the above stated 5 players? 2Also Hapa, why are you attacking easy targets: S&B, Kickstart, Me(after i go afk). 3What happened to your iamp scum read hapa? 4Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 07:26 Hapahauli wrote:On November 14 2012 07:21 marvellosity wrote:
no Hapa, the point is you're not putting yourself in scum iamp shoes, not town iamp shoes. His rationale and motive make sense to me from a scum perspective - I've already mentioned that. Making a 180 when spurred by another case is scummy and convenient. I realize you disagree, but I think you're wrong. And to draw comparisons to the read on Kei you mentioned in GSL III - I find imaperfection's actions alone much more scummy than Kei's actions in GSL III. Kei has a history of reluctant D1 play. Iamperfection doesn't have a history of these things in his town play to my knowledge. to Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 08:39 Hapahauli wrote:
@iamp
##Unvote
From your reactions so far, you're probably town. The "I don't give a fuck" thing has been on full display for the last few hours, and that meta read hasn't been wrong on you yet.
I also do like the post on Z-Bo, but I give him less townie points than you do. Z-Bo can push a read as either allignment, but I do agree he's being open so far. I see that you override his in game play with meta on d1. Very interesting 1) I'll get to the iamperfection thing below. I think it's pretty clear that iamperfection was his top scumread. 2) His first instinct when defending his "lack of substance" is to point fingers at 5 other players to deflect attention from himself. I find this horrendously scummy. 3) Again, deflecting attention from himself by accusing me of going after "easy" targets. This isn't coherent given that he just accused me of not going after 5 easier targets pointed out above. In addition, this is just a further deflection, and he's trying to paint himself as this helpless, "easy" target when he is anything but so given the player-group we have. 4) I'd understand him questioning me if he had a scumread on me, but he doesn't. He just floats suspicion out there and since this post (~10 hours ago), he still hasn't called me scummy, pushed his opinion, or done just about anything in relation to my alignment. As for my read-change on iamperfection, we've played A LOT of games together. His meta is very distinctive between his town and scum play, and his actions so far point towards his town meta regardless of his 180. Don't trust me? Ask marv. Don't trust marv? Look at all the analysis about his meta in GSL III Mini.Now debears is really insistant that Hopeless is his top scumread instead of iamperfection when he was questioning iamperfection. This is full of shit.He votes Hopeless1der here for lurking/uselessness - typical early D1 case: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=15#282Debears other substantial post on Hopeless1der is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=23#447Look how remarkably civil he is to Hopeless. There's no strong "scummy" rhetoric or anything suggesting that Hopeless is a strong scumread of his. He throws a bunch of soft-ball questions at Hopeless which shows to me that he's not all that committed to his read. Now look at his posts on Iamperfection: On November 14 2012 03:04 debears wrote:
So marv
1) iamp changes from a town read (pretty convincing one early d1)
2) sheeps on a case when he changes
3) sheeps on a case based off of lack of activity/helpfulness in the first half of d1 with a 180 read
That's not strong reasoning. Iamp knows it. That's why he goes out of his way to state the contradictiom.
Explanations
Town- idk why
Scum - trying to look like scumhunter On November 14 2012 04:38 debears wrote:Iamp's switch on Z-Bo is alarming to me. Let me explain why Town read on Z-Bo+ Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:50 iamperfection wrote:
zbos explained it in his post would have been very risky in my view. On November 13 2012 09:55 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 09:52 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote:
i guess theirs no reason not to believe zbos right? has to be to risky to do if he was scum right. Woah woah hold-up. I'm not liking how you're trusting this claim right away. Claiming miller is a pretty much a riskless play here. We don't know how many millers are in the setup, and as far as I'm concerned, the claim is null until Z-Bo proves otherwise. its what i think so whatever. Zbos scum is gone put himself out there like that i dont think so. Alright, these two posts seem pretty strong saying that Z-Bo is townie. Note the word use "very risky for scum" and "scum wouldn't put themselves out there like that" On November 13 2012 10:33 iamperfection wrote:
guys a town zbos could lie if he was blue
He could be scum
he could be vt.
I'm inclined looking at the comment that he was just writing what he thought and that it was probably true. He just had a slip of the tongue so i'm actually inclined to think it was actually the truth. It didn't look like to me as a scum making a post in order to put a claim together. Boom i got two town reads already which you gonna do mafia?????????? Here he states outright that he has a town read on Z-Bo Note that his town read is a null tell to me. Next, iamp becomes suspicious of BH + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 11:31 iamperfection wrote:
so uh this guys is like not helping right now and i expect better from him since i hold him in high regards. i say we force his hand.
## Vote Blazinghand
Especially since he made it obvious that he was here with his "lol" Note the timestamp. 30 minutes later, this comes out On November 14 2012 00:04 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 15:38 Blazinghand wrote:On November 13 2012 11:52 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:47 Kickstart wrote:On November 13 2012 11:44 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:42 marvellosity wrote:On November 13 2012 11:40 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:37 iamperfection wrote:
Whats everybody think of bh he is like a very good player when he is town from what i saw and here he really hasent done anything despite being here tell me what you guys think. Give him a chance. He is one of those guys I would 100% never lynch day one because the benefits of him being town vastly out weigh the risks of him being scum. From what I have heard around the grapevine however he is fairly easy to read as scum so we should be fine to take a look at him later on in the game. you kidding? I'd lynch him day 1 in a heartbeat if I thought he was scum. Well. That is fine. But I am not going to lynch him day one when he is a very good town player and the only case against him so far is that he is lurking. The night (or day in terms of our game i guess!) is young, I wouldn't call anyone a lurker just yet. But I agree with marv that people who give off scum vibes should get the vote and find it odd that you are basically stating that you wouldn't vote for him no matter what ;o. Yep. I would not. I would not vote day one for Hapa or marv either. Unless there was something super obvious I would not vote for them. But I do not think that would happen because they are all good players and that is why I respect them I suppose. Honestly I think it's bad to tie yourself down with ideas like that. If someone's playing scummy, they're playing scummy. My scum play isn't amazing, but due to my extreme sex appeal and enormous intelligence and penis, I can assure you that it's improved a great deal. Mostly it's due to my large penis-- it is quite a monstrosity. It works as a pad, even. Back on topic, don't feel like you can't vote or push people because of possible contributions. This kind of play is lazy and puts preconceived notions of what certain players are worth ahead of behavioral analysis. Someone voting for me because they legitimately think I'm scum and they have the cojones to do it is infinitely more helpful to town than someone not voting me because I'm a sexy baller. That being said, iamperfection's vote is pretty typical iamperfection throwing his vote around trying to pressure people but not doing it effectively. He needs to realize that you should vote people when you want to lynch them, or else you won't be taken seriously. LOL dont you dare talk down to me you little punk. You criticize me when YOU were the one being all terrible with your first couple of posts. Being all herp derp i don't have to contribute even though interesting things were happening at the time. Give me a break But that being said ## Unvote Your case on zbos reminds me more of your play from rockband more then the way you were being early on. Lokking at what zbos has posted especially this crap which bh pointed out Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:04 Z-BosoN wrote:Loving the activity so far. What I'm not loving is the excess of activity coming from debears. He's being very chit-chatty this game and here's what I find very interesting. He has commented on every single little thing on this game and is posting a ton (which by itself is anti-town, as it clogs up the thread and makes it difficult to read), but when dealing with the only significant thing that has yet happened in this thread, he simply shrugs it off as: On November 13 2012 09:46 debears wrote:On November 13 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote:
i guess theirs no reason not to believe zbos right? has to be to risky to do if he was scum right. Eh. If it's down to lylo we'll need to take a strong look at it if he's alive. Other than that, nothing much to talk about with the claim For someone who is analytical enough to attempt to judge marv's early game reactions, he's sure not being analytical about my claim. This smells scummy to me. ##vote debears If you look closely debears never said anything about being able to tell if marv is town or not from an anyltical standpoint he made it pretty clear that it was not the case and that he had said he was simply going to vote for him no matter what. Zbos totally misrepresents what is being said here and if he has the courage to throw a vote out for it you would have thought he would have read clearly what he was in fact voting for. Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 11:05 Z-BosoN wrote:@Hapa: To be honest, I've had an opposite reaction from iamp's trusting of me. I think scum would think twice before openly accepting any townie claim. In his last scum game, iirc, he was much pickier on his town reads. May be wrong here. @debearsOn November 13 2012 10:16 debears wrote:On November 13 2012 10:13 Z-BosoN wrote:On November 13 2012 10:02 strongandbig wrote:
also fuck you zboson i wanted to fakeclaim miller as vt since then people couldn't say "oh he's fakeclaiming miller must mean he's scum" when i fakeclaim miller as scum
but now if i did that people would be like "two millers what are the odds" and then probably lynch you so no good on that one Glad I beat you to it. Interesting way to claim VT though. Actually I find that suspicious as fuck. ##Unvote##Vote strongandbigDebears, I hope your posting improves throughout this game. Also, what do you mean by "that argument again?". z-bo, I face an onslaught of fluff accusations d1 last game. And, in the end, was night killed d1 after having 2/3 of my top reads being the two scum :D Great, grats. So you suffer an onslaught of fluff accusations day one, and yet you still plague the thread with fluff? Do you find nothing wrong with that? @marvSo you say that you fit best the description of actively lurking, and pretty much continue to do that? Tell me more. This post here is also another pile of crap and its the iamperfection rule of whoever defends me is probably scum. If he cared at all to check in gsl III where i was scum which he played in lollololol i thrw around 2 strong town reads early on he should know this and the fact that he isnt willing to do any legwork in order to find out is more evidence not in his favor. This post is also extremly wishy washy on everything he said. I know i said early on that i thought the miller claim was more of a town tell but well i think zbos actions speak louder. so ## Vote zboson Note the two changes here 1) BH is suddenly town because of one case 30 minutes after iamp's original suspicion 2) Z-Bo is suddenly scum because of BH's case Note his poor reasoning. His first point is BH's reasoning. His second point is the "imperfection rule"...Really??????? Also, remember that it was and is the first half of d1 at this point. Why is he jumping on Z-Bo for two fucking posts? Why is he jumping on a case from a person whom he thought was suspicious 30 minutes prior? See how poor that reasoning is? When you switch from a town read to a scum read, you're reasoning should be pretty good. Show nested quote +I know i said early on that i thought the miller claim was more of a town tell but well i think zbos actions speak louder. Ok. What does this line from his vote post on Z-Bo tell us about iamp? 1) He cares about how the town is viewing him
2) He doesn't believe his reasoning is that great for his vote
-note the "well I think his actions speak louder". It's a weak statement. Not a strong one, (a strong one) which should be warranted when you change your read from town to scum in literally no time
Point 1 is a null tell. Point 2 doesn't make any sense from a townie perspective.What are your guy's thoughts??? Look at how much stronger he's attacking iamperfection. He's much more convinced, he's much more direct, and he's really really pushing the iamperfection case. He mentions several times that he doesn't see any townie perspective from Iamperfection - rhetoric like this is completely absent in his dialogue with Hopeless. My vote is square on Debears. He's using emotional and deflectionary defenses, and his voting makes no sense with his suspicions.
1) The whole problem you have with me is based on the assumption that Iamp was my top scumread. I never stated he was. I had my vote on Hopeless.
Why do you keep ignoring that Hopeless has posted literally nothing in terms of scumhunting
Can I remind you of your own scumhunting rules?
On August 15 2012 03:13 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 01:25 YourHarry wrote:
...
but I would like to learn what makes a good scum hunting. Regardless of the result, was GK good lynch simply because he was lurking? I wanted to comment on this because I feel a lot of the current town guides don't answer this question sufficiently. I'll likely do a writup on my thought-process during the game (scum-reads and whatnot), but for now, to your question ( Take all of this FWIW - I've played a grand total of 3 games). Index: 1) Common Knowledge is Worthless 2) Ask the Right Questions - "uncommon knowledge" 3) Find a Way to Answer These Questions Using Your Playstyle
Common Knowledge is WorthlessI feel that a lot of the "scumhunting" in newbie games is overly based on common knowledge. Due to the guides, newbies go into games thinking that all it takes to find mafia is to find a couple of common scumtells in someone's play. So on Day 1, the indecisive, inconsistent, and emotional player gets lynched on the basis of these "common" scumtells. 95% of the time, they flip town, a bunch of townies blame each other, and the cycle repeats. The problem here, is that these "common" scumtells aren't always accurate (and argubly are rarely accurate). If everyone reads the guides and knows what these tells are, how can they be used to reliably scumhunt? In fact, scum will often consciously avoid these tells and run the town around in circles. If you want a good example of this, look at Newbie XXI. My mafia teammates simply tunnel suspicion on a player or two without getting involved in the game at all. People should have been questioning them, yet on the basis of "common scumtells," they were viewed as townies until very late in the game. It's worth saying that common scumtells may not be completely useless in Newbie games - I used these tells to catch my first mafia in Newbie XX (Hopeless1der). In addition, Promethelax was showing some common scumtells in this game - fingerpointing all over the place with little reasoning. However, all these tells will go out the window when you move into real games.
Ask the Right QuestionsSo if common scumtells are useless, then how do we scumhunt? The answer is to ask the right questions - this is the list I have so far:
- Is this player genuninely trying to scum-hunt?
- Is this player playing with extra information?
- What story is this player trying to tell?
Is this player genuinenly trying to scum-hunt?
This is the #1 thing you should ask yourself when making a read on a player. If a player is sheeping on a popular suspicion or isn't providing much analysis, you need to question them and figure out if they're scum-hunting or not. All three mafia players fell under this player category this game. All too often, these types of players (see DrWiggles and Mufaa in XXI) are let off the hook because their play is "clean."+ Show Spoiler +Of course this can go even deeper than this. If someone is "scum-hunting" in a different way than in a previous game, you should question their motives. If someone is tunneling a player too much even though they seem like a bad townie, you should question their motives. There is no "check-list" that you can use to answer this question. Is this player playing with information?This is a question I use to determine a bad townie froma mafia player. Think about how you think as a townie - you're always unsure of your reads, you commonly switch suspicions, and you're generally suspicious of everyone around you. This generally leads to very inconsistent play among townies who can't write or express their ideas very well. Yet these townies often end up getting lynched. When you see inconsistent play, put yourself in a player's "shoes" and try to understand how they think. For example, look at Lvdr's play in Day 0.5 - he posted a lot of one liners and sheeped suspicion on a lot of players, yet I thought he was town. Why? Because he was thinking like a townie! However, a Mafia player knows exactly who and who isn't town. Mafia can actually be very sure of themselves because they know exactly what's up. A player that takes forceful and confident opinions can very well be mafia, yet some players give this "confident and forceful" play as a strong townie read. Keep your mind open to all options and really try to figure out a player's mentality. What story is this player trying to tell?It's always important to understand the context of a player's actions rather than the actions themselves. It's easy for a player to make a case on individual inconsistent actions (Mafia do this quite often - see Promethelax and GoodKarma being obsessed with Sideni mixing up names in the thread). However, these cases are not always accurate unless you can put these actions into context. I actually defended Calgar on this basis in Newbie XXI. Even though I was mafia that game, I think my logic was pretty sound: On July 19 2012 12:18 Hapahauli wrote:Here are my thoughts on the Calgar case: tl;dr - I think Calgar is very townie.When looking for suspicious posts, its important to take the entire context of a person's play rather than individual posts. For example, I can dig through Jingle's filter and build a case on him for "suspicious and inconsistent play," yet Jingle is one of my very strong townie reads. Why? Because his play in full context shows a reckless player who tries to generate discussion - he's bound to have inconsistent/suspicious play based on his posting style alone. In the case against Calgar, I'm seeing all his inconsistent posts brought to light while ignoring the context of his play and any pro-townie evidence in his favor. So here's a question; has Calgar's play hurt or helped us this game? I'd say he helped us quite a bit. He generated a lot of discussion and got a lot of lurkers to talk. In Jingle's case, this is interpreted as him bandwagonning suspicion on several players before casting a vote on iamperfection. Calgar's fingerpointing play appears townie in full context. Another point Jingle makes is his "me-too" bandwagonning on my suspicions/ideas. Again, in full context, this isn't suspicious. I assume that Calgar thinks his strongest townie reads are Jingle and I, and he's been actively trying to make peace with (and between) us. Just take a look at this post: Show nested quote +
1. @jingle and @hapa – jesus christ guys chill out already. Your back and forth is unproductive, distracting, spammy, and most importantly, anti-town. That is reason enough to stop, immediately. Deal with your issues outside of the thread.
What part of this even makes sense from a mafia perspective? Why the hell would he attempt to break up a fight between us? Other than his last post to Jingle, he's been very active in trying to get on good terms with his top townie reads and stopped us from our distracting fight. This is 100% pure-colombian townie. As a final point, while I see "inconsistency" in Calgar's play, I don't see any any attemps to lie, mislead, or deflect. Inconsistency is indicative of reckless townie play - misleading play is very very mafia oriented. I don't see any indication of the latter at all. So before the town goes and bandwagons Calgar, ask yourself; is he really the most suspicious player here? Does he have any mafia-motive? In my opinion, no and no.
Find a Way to Answer These Questions Using Your PlaystyleThe last step is playstyle - you need to find the best way for YOU to get the information needed to answer these questions. In my case, I like aggressively questioning players and ripping the answers out of them. Others like sitting back and "observing" the thread before chiming in with their reads. Many take a balance between the two styles. There are advantages and disadvantages to different methods, but what's important is that you find a style that works for you.
WOWOWOWOWOWOW
Hapa is going after someone "scumhunting to hard' instead of not scumhunting, despite his list of rules. What's the #1 thing you look for Hapa? OH YEAH SCUMHUNTING DOH.
2) I pointed out 5 other players because it makes no sense for you to attack me for "scumhunting too hard" when we have 5 lurker-doodles who aren't contributing, at least up to that point
3) Check my meta on why i'm questioning you. I question people who vote me for dogshit reasons.
Honestly, I think Hapa and Hopeless are scum
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EPT
