EPTHow to make Mech and Stargate play viable. - Page 5
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BronzeKnee
United States5211 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5211 Posts
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
I dont think the solution to siege tank problems is nerfing collosus, if tanks have problems adjustments made to tanks should be the solution. You have to remember that tanks are balanced around use with bio (terran bio is very good), if tanks were balanced for mech to be viable in TvP, then TvZ would be completely broken. Similarly, collosus are balanced around being used with gateway units (which suck), if you go and haphazardly slap nerfs on units like it then that might balance a particular tech tree in one matchup, but makes collosus completely useless in PvZ. If terran bio performed similarly in cost effectiveness to gateway units, then you could make a real arguement for tanks not being properly balanced, but given pure mech builds are a not uncommon thing, buffing tanks to that degree would result in nobody playing bio. This is why balancing the game is so difficult | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5211 Posts
On October 31 2012 06:42 tsango wrote: Something that wasnt really raised was the notion that protoss tech is usually very strong, because gateway units on their own are terrible. I dont think the solution to siege tank problems is nerfing collosus, if tanks have problems adjustments made to tanks should be the solution. You have to remember that tanks are balanced around use with bio (terran bio is very good), if tanks were balanced for mech to be viable in TvP, then TvZ would be completely broken. Similarly, collosus are balanced around being used with gateway units (which suck), if you go and haphazardly slap nerfs on units like it then that might balance a particular tech tree in one matchup, but makes collosus completely useless in PvZ. If terran bio performed similarly in cost effectiveness to gateway units, then you could make a real arguement for tanks not being properly balanced, but given pure mech builds are a not uncommon thing, buffing tanks to that degree would result in nobody playing bio. This is why balancing the game is so difficult Well I thought of all that honestly. I believe Zerg got two new good units in the Swarm Host and Viper, that emphasize positional play, so it is hard to talk about TvZ with them, especially since I play Protoss. I also mentioned that Centrifugal Hooks might need to Banelings a +1 armor upgrade if Tanks becomes too strong vs Banelings, as with the changes mentioned, it would mean Banelings don't die in one Tank hit. I don't see adding range and hit points and reducing build time to the Colossus as a nerf. And again, you can load them in and out Speed Prisms to make up for their speed reduction. In general, I'm adjusting the role of Protoss Robotics units, rather than nerfing them. They won't be a-move units anymore, but they will still be very powerful, but they'll emphasize and allow for positional play. I also mentioned buffing the Archon's DPS to give Protoss better mobile AOE. So these nerfs and buffs certainly are not haphazardly done with no regard for different matchups. And if you read the entire OP you'd understand that. If you have specific issues with any change, let's talk about it, I know the changes need work. But labeling them haphazardly done with no examples and then saying balancing is hard is meaningless. | ||
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MugenXBanksy
United States479 Posts
On October 31 2012 23:47 BronzeKnee wrote: Well I thought of all that honestly. I believe Zerg got two new good units in the Swarm Host and Viper, that emphasize positional play, so it is hard to talk about TvZ with them, especially since I play Protoss. I also mentioned that Centrifugal Hooks might need to Banelings a +1 armor upgrade if Tanks becomes too strong vs Banelings, as with the changes mentioned, it would mean Banelings don't die in one Tank hit. I don't see adding range and hit points and reducing build time to the Colossus as a nerf. And again, you can load them in and out Speed Prisms to make up for their speed reduction. In general, I'm adjusting the role of Protoss Robotics units, rather than nerfing them. They won't be a-move units anymore, but they will still be very powerful, but they'll emphasize and allow for positional play. I also mentioned buffing the Archon's DPS to give Protoss better mobile AOE. So these nerfs and buffs certainly are not haphazardly done with no regard for different matchups. And if you read the entire OP you'd understand that. If you have specific issues with any change, let's talk about it, I know the changes need work. But labeling them haphazardly done with no examples and then saying balancing is hard is meaningless. Yes we really need to watch more free units killing other free units in ZvZ and a unit that picks up the other plays units that are making the free units soo one player has more free units then the other player meanwhile killing your money made units with free units giving you a free unit advantage..... | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On October 31 2012 05:10 BronzeKnee wrote: Could not have said it better myself. The Colossus fills the same basic role as the Siege Tank, and the results of which unit is used more than the other speaks for itself about which is better. The Colossus is used in all three match ups, while the Siege Tank isn't. The Colossus is objectively better. In many ways this is like discussing whether the Marine is better than the Hydralisk. They both fill the same roles, and it should be obvious that the Marine is far superior. And if the Hydralisk is ever to be viable in TvZ, then it needs a buff. Now if you replace Marine with Colossus and Hydralisk with Siege Tank and Tvz with TvP in paragraph, the argument is just as strong and valid. Buddy, read the OP. Yes I know you can't heal right now without Medivacs, and I know right now Combat Shield gives 10 not 15. This thread isn't about what exists now, this is about what could exist. You're way off in left field talking about something that is totally unrelated. I suggested reducing Marine health from 45 to 40 and to make Combat Shield give 15 instead of 10 health. I also suggested that Medics are added into the game as a Barracks Tech Lab units to compensate for the Marine health nerf. I agree that reducing Marine health alone would be a bad idea. But the point of this thread is that you can't make Siege Tanks viable without changing a bunch of things about the game and those changes all need to be considered as a package, and not individually. So please, read the OP then post. I am thinking there is language barrier here that is preventing me from fully understanding. I throw numbers around to give people an idea of what I am talking about, they are not set in stone, and should be used a framework for my ideas. I also don't love Siege Tanks, but I do love positional play. Also, map control and map seizing to me are the same thing. Right now, map control isn't worth as much as it should be in my opinion. If an opponent sieges up my expansion like in the pictures in the OP, that should be checkmate, lost expansion. I should not have let my opponent get in that position, and should have been more out on the map and challenging him for space. But instead I have enough a-move Immortals that I walked through him, even if he has the better position and map control. And that is one of the problems with SC2 regarding counters. They require very little skill to use and the game becomes a game of rock-paper-scissors, where the real skill is in scouting so you can know what your opponent is going to throw, and adjust accordingly. That isn't a bad game, but it is less interesting in my opinion than something like the Immortal countering the Siege Tank when out of Siege Mode, while the Siege Tank counters the Immortal while in Siege Mode, which leads to interesting positional play. First of all how often a unit is used does not say how 'good' a unit is per se. How often a unit is made is the combined results of it's quality, the metagame and what situations it's good in. A unit can be really good (have great stats) but never be used because the scenario you need it for just doesn't come up. The scout in BW is a good example of this, it's quite good against battlecruisers but just never made because BCs are never made either in TvP. You just can't say colossi are better than siege tanks really, in fact if i could keep all protoss units and exchange the colossus for the siege tank i'd definately do so, most probably would. Besides I don't get what the fuzz about mech viability is now, it's already awesome in HotS now. It's the best option in TvT and TvZ at the moment and indeed not viable in TvP but that may come soon, one or two specific buffs to beat zealot/archon/immortal and carriers a bit easier could go a long way already, drastic changes as in this thread are a bit unrealistic at this point probably. For example putting putting detection back on revelation instead of the MsC and just buffing the thor a bit (better ability and/or more damage against armored air) would do enough probably. | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On November 01 2012 05:08 Markwerf wrote: Besides I don't get what the fuzz about mech viability is now, it's already awesome in HotS now. It's the best option in TvT and TvZ at the moment and indeed not viable in TvP but that may come soon, one or two specific buffs to beat zealot/archon/immortal and carriers a bit easier could go a long way already, drastic changes as in this thread are a bit unrealistic at this point probably. For example putting putting detection back on revelation instead of the MsC and just buffing the thor a bit (better ability and/or more damage against armored air) would do enough probably. Yes, I want more damage to non-light air for the Thor, and maybe let it hit Colossi. | ||
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esprsjsalvz
Canada11 Posts
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On November 01 2012 05:08 Markwerf wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 31 2012 05:10 BronzeKnee wrote: Could not have said it better myself. The Colossus fills the same basic role as the Siege Tank, and the results of which unit is used more than the other speaks for itself about which is better. The Colossus is used in all three match ups, while the Siege Tank isn't. The Colossus is objectively better. In many ways this is like discussing whether the Marine is better than the Hydralisk. They both fill the same roles, and it should be obvious that the Marine is far superior. And if the Hydralisk is ever to be viable in TvZ, then it needs a buff. Now if you replace Marine with Colossus and Hydralisk with Siege Tank and Tvz with TvP in paragraph, the argument is just as strong and valid. Buddy, read the OP. Yes I know you can't heal right now without Medivacs, and I know right now Combat Shield gives 10 not 15. This thread isn't about what exists now, this is about what could exist. You're way off in left field talking about something that is totally unrelated. I suggested reducing Marine health from 45 to 40 and to make Combat Shield give 15 instead of 10 health. I also suggested that Medics are added into the game as a Barracks Tech Lab units to compensate for the Marine health nerf. I agree that reducing Marine health alone would be a bad idea. But the point of this thread is that you can't make Siege Tanks viable without changing a bunch of things about the game and those changes all need to be considered as a package, and not individually. So please, read the OP then post. I am thinking there is language barrier here that is preventing me from fully understanding. I throw numbers around to give people an idea of what I am talking about, they are not set in stone, and should be used a framework for my ideas. I also don't love Siege Tanks, but I do love positional play. Also, map control and map seizing to me are the same thing. Right now, map control isn't worth as much as it should be in my opinion. If an opponent sieges up my expansion like in the pictures in the OP, that should be checkmate, lost expansion. I should not have let my opponent get in that position, and should have been more out on the map and challenging him for space. But instead I have enough a-move Immortals that I walked through him, even if he has the better position and map control. And that is one of the problems with SC2 regarding counters. They require very little skill to use and the game becomes a game of rock-paper-scissors, where the real skill is in scouting so you can know what your opponent is going to throw, and adjust accordingly. That isn't a bad game, but it is less interesting in my opinion than something like the Immortal countering the Siege Tank when out of Siege Mode, while the Siege Tank counters the Immortal while in Siege Mode, which leads to interesting positional play. First of all how often a unit is used does not say how 'good' a unit is per se. How often a unit is made is the combined results of it's quality, the metagame and what situations it's good in. A unit can be really good (have great stats) but never be used because the scenario you need it for just doesn't come up. The scout in BW is a good example of this, it's quite good against battlecruisers but just never made because BCs are never made either in TvP. You just can't say colossi are better than siege tanks really, in fact if i could keep all protoss units and exchange the colossus for the siege tank i'd definately do so, most probably would. Besides I don't get what the fuzz about mech viability is now, it's already awesome in HotS now. It's the best option in TvT and TvZ at the moment and indeed not viable in TvP but that may come soon, one or two specific buffs to beat zealot/archon/immortal and carriers a bit easier could go a long way already, drastic changes as in this thread are a bit unrealistic at this point probably. For example putting putting detection back on revelation instead of the MsC and just buffing the thor a bit (better ability and/or more damage against armored air) would do enough probably. Mech is the best option in TvT right now not because of how good mech is, but because Bio is not viable. | ||
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Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
On November 01 2012 06:15 GARcher wrote: Mech is the best option in TvT right now not because of how good mech is, but because Bio is not viable. Isn't that the same thing? I mean, the reason bio is not as strong(not viable is harsh) is because mech got stronger. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5211 Posts
On November 01 2012 05:54 esprsjsalvz wrote: With the changes to the immortal you propose, you will once again see both players 4 gate every game in PvP. This is a problem. But you had some good ideas. I don't even know what to say to this... 4 Gate is dead in PvP WOL unless someone is being greedy, and that fact has nothing to do with the Immortal, it has to do with the Sentry or Two gate openings (like the 3 Stalker Rush). 4 Gate isn't even close to being viable vs even greedy builds in HOTS with Purify and because pylons don't give a powerfield on the high ground (except 4 Gate can work on the stupid map with the huge ramp). I've been incredibly greedy in HOTS because Purify is so powerful defensively. Hit one button, and you hold a two rax! It is skilless and dumb but that is a different story... But anyway, faster building and cheaper Immortals would actually help hold off a 4 Gate. I'm thinking you are a lower league player who doesn't fully grasp the game yet... | ||
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Knetza
United States9 Posts
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
As far as mech goes, though, I really do think that either one of buffing tanks or nerfing marines is the way to go in order to fix things. If we're going to be given these enormous maps, then the slow, position based units that are supposed to say "get the f*ck off my lawn" really need to have the firepower to make shit melt when they get in range. I barf a little whenever I see a pack of marines run up to a few tanks and focus fire them down. I include Tempests and Carriers as well as Siege Tanks in this statement. At the same time, we can't have the cheapest and most basic units like marines having the insane DPS that they do along with ridiculous mobility. It makes it worse that you don't have to choose between allocating supply to make your units durable versus adding extra punch to your drops - having dropships heal lets you have your cake and eat it too. | ||
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On November 01 2012 14:42 TGalore wrote: I agree with a good amount of it. I wrote a thread a long while ago that talks about how silly late game PvZ is right now - either infestors or Corruptors need to change in order to make it an even field again. As far as mech goes, though, I really do think that either one of buffing tanks or nerfing marines is the way to go in order to fix things. If we're going to be given these enormous maps, then the slow, position based units that are supposed to say "get the f*ck off my lawn" really need to have the firepower to make shit melt when they get in range. I barf a little whenever I see a pack of marines run up to a few tanks and focus fire them down. I include Tempests and Carriers as well as Siege Tanks in this statement. At the same time, we can't have the cheapest and most basic units like marines having the insane DPS that they do along with ridiculous mobility. It makes it worse that you don't have to choose between allocating supply to make your units durable versus adding extra punch to your drops - having dropships heal lets you have your cake and eat it too. It's the other guy's problem not supporting his tanks. If you need to barf, barf at how bad he is. As of right now, mech just doesn't work outside of TvT. In TvP it is completely shut down by pretty much anything and in TvZ, the Viper is probably going to make a lot of people go back to bio. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5211 Posts
I didn't add in the Tempest (since it only effects PvZ really) or the Goliath AOE anti-air upgrade, but I did reduce Carrier build time and made Interceptors cost 10 minerals. Any Masters/Diamond Terran want to play me tomorrow (BronzeKnee.303 on NA)? I actually have vetoed Daybreak every season but I made the changes for that map. I'll probably put up another map too if it is actually fun. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5211 Posts
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Sircoolguy
United States81 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5211 Posts
On November 03 2012 10:49 Sircoolguy wrote: So with regards to the tank if we give it a damage boost to mechanical we can buff it against P (which it needs) and against mech terran which can allow at least a marine tank style against P. Might also allow mech versus P but probably not since the main problem is the chargelots. The Warhound and Flaming Betty handle Chargelots. | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
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