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I think Tanks are in a great place in SC2 right now. Mech's shortcomings are not due to the Tank. Its everything else in the factory. Hellbats are an incredibly heavy counter unit -- awesome vs everything light on the ground, sucks vs everything else. Tanks are an incredibly heavy counter -- awesome vs everything armored on the ground (except Immortals), and sucks vs everything else.
So the factory handles ground light and ground armored units very well. But it still has a few weaknesses. Namely "untyped units" like HT/Archon, all air units, and Immortals. The Thor is supposed to fill these three roles, but it fails all of them.
I think the most logical solution to fix mech is to alter the Thor and Immortal.
Thor:
1. Increase its antiair attack base damage by X
2. Decrease its antiair attack bonus vs Light damage by X
3. Decrease the damage on its ground attack by X
4. Remove the energy bar, and make Strike Cannon an ability on a X second cooldown
5. Allow Strike Cannon to hit air units
Immortal:
1. Increase its base Shield Armor by X
2. Nerf Hardened Shields to trigger only once per X seconds
I really like the idea of making Immortals tougher vs units like Marines, Zerglings, and Zealots, while making them weaker vs units like Siege Tanks, Ultralisks, and Tempests.
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On November 18 2012 05:16 larse wrote:
Not many people realize but the best counter to tempest/templar composition is hellion and viking. You use hellion to quickly get close to templar and kill them with bonus damage to light. And the templar can storm hellion effectively. And then the viking can kill tempest. 2 Vikings beat 1 tempest. It's very cost-effective.
You sir sound like a troll.
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United Kingdom12046 Posts
On November 18 2012 07:07 MugenXBanksy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:16 larse wrote:
Not many people realize but the best counter to tempest/templar composition is hellion and viking. You use hellion to quickly get close to templar and kill them with bonus damage to light. And the templar can storm hellion effectively. And then the viking can kill tempest. 2 Vikings beat 1 tempest. It's very cost-effective. You sir sound like a troll.
I dunno about the viking part as every game I've played so far as mech I've been demolished by tempests, but hellions alone destroy templars who are stood on their own.
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On November 18 2012 09:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 07:07 MugenXBanksy wrote:On November 18 2012 05:16 larse wrote:
Not many people realize but the best counter to tempest/templar composition is hellion and viking. You use hellion to quickly get close to templar and kill them with bonus damage to light. And the templar can storm hellion effectively. And then the viking can kill tempest. 2 Vikings beat 1 tempest. It's very cost-effective. You sir sound like a troll. I dunno about the viking part as every game I've played so far as mech I've been demolished by tempests, but hellions alone destroy templars who are stood on their own.
No one goes HT Tempest alone. There will be some other Gateway support under that that will eat the Hellions.
Pretty sure he meant that response for another thread.
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i disagree with the OP solutiosn proposed, and feel they don't address many things well; but one thing I wnated to ask abotu map pool changes (i was out of it fo a year in the middle so i may've missed some maps):
looking at xel'naga caverns and shattered temple, both feature mesas; high ground areas in the middle areas of the map that have limited or NO ramp access; i didn't follow the scene in BW later on; but i know there were originally a lot of maps that also features such areas.
spots like that matter a lot to the viability of tanks;
even if not completely secure; some only had a ramp on the defended side, or had a xel'naga tower nexrt to them and only one ramp entrance, so were quite defensible and covered a lot of major area.
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On November 18 2012 15:25 zlefin wrote:
i disagree with the OP solutiosn proposed, and feel they don't address many things well; but one thing I wnated to ask abotu map pool changes (i was out of it fo a year in the middle so i may've missed some maps):
looking at xel'naga caverns and shattered temple, both feature mesas; high ground areas in the middle areas of the map that have limited or NO ramp access; i didn't follow the scene in BW later on; but i know there were originally a lot of maps that also features such areas.
spots like that matter a lot to the viability of tanks;
even if not completely secure; some only had a ramp on the defended side, or had a xel'naga tower nexrt to them and only one ramp entrance, so were quite defensible and covered a lot of major area.
Finally some one who gets it my god about damn time (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
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On October 29 2012 22:04 CYFAWS wrote:
The immortal was designed to be protoss answer to tanks. As it happens, protoss doesnt need an answer to tanks as every single unit they have does decently against tanks on their own and in synergy with each other, tanks are just shit. The immortal is just the topping of the tank rape cake that is protoss.
I agree with this. With the risk of robbing them of individuality, I don't think Immortals really need the Hardened Shield.
Maybe just increase the total shield HP.
Units like Tanks, Thors, Banelings, Immortals, DT's would kill Immortals much more easily, while other units that do only 10-20 damage could have their increased attack cancelled out by a shield with more HP.
This change would obviously have countless implications for other units. It's certainly not the kind of thing you just throw at the game, but it would help Mech, that's for sure.
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Any thoughts on an armory-level upgrade to the tank that would permit firing while moving (not in siege mode, obviously)? Could make for some more dynamic plays, and may eliminate the need for a warhound as well.
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On November 21 2012 00:45 TheSymbiont wrote:
Any thoughts on an armory-level upgrade to the tank that would permit firing while moving (not in siege mode, obviously)? Could make for some more dynamic plays, and may eliminate the need for a warhound as well.
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I think simply nerfing the immortal with respect to siege tanks would probably be all that the Terrans need. I definitely think implementing all of OP's suggested changes would shake up balance between all the match ups way too much. It's been said here before and I totally agree with it: Protoss have so many soft counters and tools to beat seige tanks (e.g chargelots, blink stalkers, storm, colussus) , it really doesn't make sense to have something that counters siege tanks so hard. Not only is it an unnecessary hard counter, it's a really freaking boring hard counter. It's painful to watch a small number of immortals decimate a well placed siege tank position, with absolutely no micro coming from the Protoss. How is it fair that Terran's have to slowly leap frog their tanks to make sure they don't get owned harder then they normally do while Protoss get two really powerful robo units that require no micro whatsoever. I feel at best immortals should trade 50/50 with tanks that are completely sieged.
So the question is what should we change on the immortal without fucking up the other match ups? I think they are fine for PvP and PvZ. Hell they are fine for PvT when T goes bio. Perhaps changing hardened shields to not work against splash damage? Making spider mines ignore hardened shields?
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Your suggested nerf to immortals is too severe, I agree with perhaps removing hardened shields, but to reduce hitpoints, that's just overkill, immortals are gonna go from amazing vs mech, to a 2x stalker that moves slower (we all know how that goes). But then I feel the immortal need something, maby similar to the thor AA attack to compensate. Right now it is not an amazing units vs anything but mech and static, though it has the advantage of still being better than the stalker at pure dps vs bio. Roaches still roll immortals without good ff remember, they are far from imba.
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How about changing the Immortal's ability from Hardened Shield to Regenerative Shield. RS would work by absorbing half (the percentage can be changed based on balance) of any incoming damage and turning it back into shields on the Immortal, after the damage has been done. So if a tank hits an Immortal with RS, it will lose 50 shields and then regen 25 shields leaving it with 75 shields. Since the damage happens first and then it regens, you have the possibility of overwhelming the shields and doing hull damage with sufficiently strong or numerous attacks.
For examples, if 2 sieged tanks and 1 Thor all fire on an RS Immortal at the same time, it will take 160 damage, destroying its shield and doing 60 hull damage (technically 58 given the Immortals base armor, and with the tanks being considered "first"). After that its shields will regen leaving it at 80/142, instead of 60/200 as would happen with an HS Immortal. The Immortal remains a tough unit worthy of the name, but it doesn't get to just ignore the first 10 enemy attacks.
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On November 21 2012 06:34 AfricanPsycho wrote:
Your suggested nerf to immortals is too severe, I agree with perhaps removing hardened shields, but to reduce hitpoints, that's just overkill, immortals are gonna go from amazing vs mech, to a 2x stalker that moves slower (we all know how that goes). But then I feel the immortal need something, maby similar to the thor AA attack to compensate. Right now it is not an amazing units vs anything but mech and static, though it has the advantage of still being better than the stalker at pure dps vs bio. Roaches still roll immortals without good ff remember, they are far from imba.
Well the idea here isn't just to nerf Immortals and leave it at that. I want to nerf their durability and DPS slightly, but also greatly reduce their build time and cost. So a nerf is balanced with a buff.
If you just remove Hardened Shields alone, then you can't really justify the big cost or build time reduction I am suggesting. And then the unit is left is a weird place. Fact is, Immortals are bad when they aren't faced with expensive armored units (and they are so good vs said units that people don't build them), or being used in the Immortal/Sentry all-in before Zerg has a lot of Infestors. Instead my suggestion makes an Immortal essentially equal in many respects to two Marauders, and it would fill the same role. This would make the unit more usable in general. Heck, two Immortals loaded into a Warp Prism would be just as effective in the harassment role as two Immortals are now, but they would build faster and be cheaper.
So please, consider both sides of this here, too many people I think are just looking at what the Immortal is losing, and not consider that you can afford more and they build faster, meaning you can field more.
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I like these changes, but I dont like the betties. Have tempest require twilight because you would see proxy tempest every game. Some need to be tweaked though.
Change immortal to 200/100
Nerf its damage to 45 (+4)
Medics would need to have slow regeneration and an upgrade
Zerg need something to.
Mabye an abduct buff?
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On November 21 2012 00:45 TheSymbiont wrote:
Any thoughts on an armory-level upgrade to the tank that would permit firing while moving (not in siege mode, obviously)? Could make for some more dynamic plays, and may eliminate the need for a warhound as well.
Terrible idea and it is what we all dont want to ever see. How does it lead to more dynamic play? It just lead to the tank becoming a 1-A unit. It a really lazy solution and really bad fix. Atleast with marauder you can stim and split while this new upgraded tank just 1-A. I feel like I got trolled because this was such a pretty bad suggestion -.- lol.
Either way, I disagree with ops to a extent. And honestly, I do not think Mech will ever work in HOTS (atleast the mech we all want to see) and if blizzard find a way without completely altering how protoss or terran works, I will be shocked. The widowmine looked promising but they are just too powerful early game and too weak late game. I though it might be the solution but further testing just lead to the same conclusion. I truly dont know how to fix it anymore :/
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On November 21 2012 00:45 TheSymbiont wrote:
Any thoughts on an armory-level upgrade to the tank that would permit firing while moving (not in siege mode, obviously)? Could make for some more dynamic plays, and may eliminate the need for a warhound as well.
Terrible idea. Watch QXC's video about how units should be designed and there you can learn that every advantage should be balanced by a disadvantage and for mech that is IMMOBILITY. This has to stay for the style alone.
Never ever sacrifice STYLE for EFFICIENCY (not in SC2 and not IRL either).
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On November 21 2012 15:55 DontNerfInfestors wrote:
I like these changes, but I dont like the betties. Have tempest require twilight because you would see proxy tempest every game. Some need to be tweaked though.
Change immortal to 200/100
Nerf its damage to 45 (+4)
Medics would need to have slow regeneration and an upgrade
Zerg need something to.
Mabye an abduct buff?
The Tempest upgrade for Phoenixes would require a Fleet Beacon, as it says in the OP. And it has a 6 range anti-air attack that deals 35 AOE damage to non-massive targets, and 20 damage to massive targets every 2 seconds and a 6 range ground attack that can hit single units for 25 (perhaps 20 would be better though) damage every 1.5 seconds.
If you went for Proxy Tempest with those stats, you'd be a fool since they don't do much damage to ground units, and the time it would take to get them would absurd. Proxy Void Ray would still be far more effective.
Medics already have a slow regeneration rate, and then an upgrade that brings their healing to the same rate as the Medivac has now currently. I suggested it in the OP and my test map has it.
I'm thinking there is a language barrier or something that is preventing you from fully understanding my post.
On November 21 2012 18:05 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 00:45 TheSymbiont wrote:
Any thoughts on an armory-level upgrade to the tank that would permit firing while moving (not in siege mode, obviously)? Could make for some more dynamic plays, and may eliminate the need for a warhound as well. Terrible idea and it is what we all dont want to ever see. How does it lead to more dynamic play? It just lead to the tank becoming a 1-A unit. It a really lazy solution and really bad fix. Atleast with marauder you can stim and split while this new upgraded tank just 1-A. I feel like I got trolled because this was such a pretty bad suggestion -.- lol. Either way, I disagree with ops to a extent. And honestly, I do not think Mech will ever work in HOTS (atleast the mech we all want to see) and if blizzard find a way without completely altering how protoss or terran works, I will be shocked. The widowmine looked promising but they are just too powerful early game and too weak late game. I though it might be the solution but further testing just lead to the same conclusion. I truly dont know how to fix it anymore :/
Try out my map with someone. I think you'll find that Mech is viable in TvP. More powerful tanks, a Warhound/Goliath unit, and the Flaming Betty combined with the changes to the Colossus and Immortal have truly made Mech viable. And fun.
And you can still play Bio.
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I updated the map on the WOL server.
Flaming Bettys now build with increasing health and take 12 seconds instead of 10 to build. They were too powerful in early Hellion/Bio timings.
The Dropship now takes only 30 seconds to build, down from 42 from the Medivac.
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awesome suggestions, i srsly like every changes in op's post. thumbs-up!
marines and marauders with medic, would be able to hold early game allins like blink stalkers and stuff like that easyer, since you dont need to rush to medivac, i think these changes would make sc2 alot more strategic. Both bio and mech becomes more fun and balanced.
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Personally what I think Mech need is for Thors to be made into Mini 2 food versions that are more mobile, and a Zero Food mine, to help deal with drops and flanks.
Hellbats are a dull and hard counter light units too well. Personally I feel that the chargelot issue isn't real. People just don't like using EMP because it doesn't kill stuff. Also Bio + Mines are really good. You can kite around minefields and kill tons of enemy units. It creates space between the bio and the Zealots. Much more creative and fun then Helbats.
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EPT
