EPTHow to make Mech and Stargate play viable. - Page 9
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Taefox
1533 Posts
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vrumFondel
Russian Federation42 Posts
Plz post this great map on EU! | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
Why aren't you on the development team? Someone needs to make sure Blizzard sees this. I am very impressed by you understanding, and holistic perspective on the effects of changing units across match-ups. My hat goes off to you sir! | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On November 30 2012 17:41 foxj wrote: Tanks need got enough damage to get rid of immortals imo Hmmm ... that would make the hardened shield pointless. How about "Tanks need to deal enough damage to kill the OTHER Protoss units fast enough so the units supporting the Tanks can deal with the Immortals quicker"? Dropping 2 Immortals onto a pure Siege Tank position would punish the Terran for leaving his achilles heel unguarded, so Immortals wouldnt really become useless. | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
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drkcid
Spain196 Posts
On November 30 2012 17:41 foxj wrote: Tanks need got enough damage to get rid of immortals imo That have no sense. You cant buff a unit to destroy a hard-counter. The role of inmortals is to counter tanks. | ||
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Dekker
Germany169 Posts
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:00 drkcid wrote: That have no sense. You cant buff a unit to destroy a hard-counter. The role of inmortals is to counter tanks. The issue is that Immortals HARDcounter tanks.Its too onesided. Marines can split and try counter banelings,but what can Siege Tanks do? Chargelots and blink also counter tanks.Tempest counter tanks.Its too much.Sure you cant leave tanks alone and expect them to do the job,but its too hard.You need good EMPs and lot of vikings for TEmpest.But when they die and you still got 20 Vikings,20gate P will warp Zealots and archons and you still die.Not only this,on big maos you just cant move.Protoss will go around and snipe all your bases because the moment you unsieged,he attacks you and you die.As Morrow said,he just cant expand as quick as P,so P got endless eco. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:00 drkcid wrote: That have no sense. You cant buff a unit to destroy a hard-counter. The role of inmortals is to counter tanks. There's countering tanks, then there's how the game is currently when if you miss one EMP 5 immortals can kill around 20 or so tanks. It's crazy :p | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
This would bring so much more interesting dynamics in the game instead of the one dimensional, lopsided garbage we tend to play/see most of the time especially when infestors are involved. Immortals dont help the case either with being extremely effective (to the point to rendering them entirely useless) against a few units (high burst damage units) and being typically useless against others (rapid damage dealing units). | ||
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Taefox
1533 Posts
On November 30 2012 21:00 drkcid wrote: That have no sense. You cant buff a unit to destroy a hard-counter. The role of inmortals is to counter tanks. Yea but like people above already said, Protoss has many units to tanks and immortals are just overwhelming hard-counter to tanks. I didn't mean over buff that tanks take down immortals in a few shots but not the current atm like some immortals a move and walk over 16+ siege tanks it's the point. ^^ Thus i think immortals should be designed to not hard-counter siege units but normal movement units like : Marauders, Roach, stalkers ... | ||
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mantequilla
Turkey779 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On November 30 2012 22:38 mantequilla wrote: Well about Terran mech, I feel that you are not just trying to make mech play viable vs P but trying to make it OP. No ground army composition can beat mech and you also want to be able to defend your base while you are besieging opponent's base? Considering stargate play is not viable against terran in almost any situation that can make mech OP as hell. I think you're exaggerating a bit. I've played mech in SC2 since the release and I'm pretty sure I've been destroyed by pretty much every composition at least once. Also with protoss usually a composition comprising entirely of Archons/Immortals just rolls through mech (seriously, it's not even close, even with EMP (since you'll never have enough to hit everything)) which is the entire point of this thread. | ||
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mantequilla
Turkey779 Posts
 Naniwa's embarrasing defeat by Liquid Sea at IPL showed that mech is still somewhat viable if tanks reach critical number and well, P is not geared exclusively against mech.I'm waiting for a similar quality post from a knowledgeable P about phoe, void and carrier rework. Until then, no, stick to your MMM ball P is already the side that reacts, T just decides to go mech, P has to react. T decides to go bio, P has to react. And by reacting it becomes a head-to-head game, not an auto win for P. Terran player does not decide to go bio because Protoss is going for immortals, right?Sky Terran is viable vs P, stargate is not vs T. I think we are equal on that one | ||
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HardCorey
United States709 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On November 30 2012 23:33 HardCorey wrote: My favorite thing about the widow mine right now is countering early cloak banshee in TvT. This is simply an improvement in the matchup. And the example with the 6-7 widow mines taking out a bunch of tempest is actually a pretty cool use of the mines, similar to big burrowed baneling hits Dont you think they might become "too powerful" and maybe even "more powerful (useful) than Siege Tanks"? The consequence would be a nerf and it would be back to square 1 ... The Widow Mine wont make mech more viable, but it could replace it or give more power to bio because there is about zero synergy with the Thor and the Siege Tank. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On November 30 2012 22:38 mantequilla wrote: Well about Terran mech, I feel that you are not just trying to make mech play viable vs P but trying to make it OP. No ground army composition can beat mech and you also want to be able to defend your base while you are besieging opponent's base? Considering stargate play is not viable against terran in almost any situation that can make mech OP as hell. That is exactly what I am trying to do. No ground army composition should be able to beat Mech in a straight up fight. And that is okay because Mech play based around Siege Tanks is the most immobile force in the game. Force Mech players to fight divided or catch them unsieged and you'll win. Alternatively, use air units. And I did buff Stargate play. Carriers build 30 seconds faster, heal any hull damage done to interceptors when they return, and are able to be microed the same way they were in BW. I also put in a more powerful anti-air unit for Mech in the Goliath to help combat Carriers. On December 01 2012 01:59 Rabiator wrote: Dont you think they might become "too powerful" and maybe even "more powerful (useful) than Siege Tanks"? The consequence would be a nerf and it would be back to square 1 ... The Widow Mine wont make mech more viable, but it could replace it or give more power to bio because there is about zero synergy with the Thor and the Siege Tank. This is exactly the issue I pointed out in the OP. The fifth to last paragraph reads: + Show Spoiler + The power of Mech should not come from the Widow Mine, it should come from the Siege Tank. The Siege Tank should hit hard, not the Widow Mine. If Siege Tanks do enough damage then Mech will work. If they don't, then we'll constantly be looking for something that will do big damage and that we can combine with Siege Tanks so we can say "See Siege Tanks work when you use them with X!" X being the very hard hitting Warhound that was removed or Widow Mine. And in both cases, the Widow Mine and Warhound are better used alone or with other Terran play styles, than in conjunction with Siege Tanks in TvP. | ||
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Penev
28491 Posts
Instead of making the Tempest a unit built from the Stargate though, let's make it a transformation of the Phoenix that requires the Fleet Beacon. because that's a Zerg feature (although the mother ship core does something similar). Maybe a unit that can combine with the phoenix?the ability for Ultralisks to walk over Zerglings, Broodlings, and Locusts So true, thought this one up myself and probably a lot of other people too. It's so obvious, it's hard to believe that Blizzard can't come with this one themselves. May the force be with you  | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On December 01 2012 02:54 Penev wrote: So true, thought this one up myself and probably a lot of other people too. It's so obvious, it's hard to believe that Blizzard can't come with this one themselves. May the force be with you Thanks. I think like most people who try to give Blizzard ideas at this point I'm standing around so I can tell Blizzard "told ya so" because they don't listen, rather than expecting them to listen to me. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
i dont feel the new terran units, 2 supply for widow launcher who gets obsolete mid/lategame is kinda not so good <: | ||
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