EPTHow to make Mech and Stargate play viable. - Page 4
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
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Ethoex
United States164 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5214 Posts
Shouldn't be too hard to implement this stuff... I hope. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On October 30 2012 07:39 BronzeKnee wrote: Alright, what map do we want it on? Shouldn't be too hard to implement this stuff... I hope. Try Daybreak. | ||
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
Very radical changes proposed, i think reducing collosus movement speed to 1.2 from 2.25 would make them damn near useless - they're speed matches with stalkers and chargelots to keep army coherency, as soon as you start making adjustments like that, the mobility of the entire army becomes restricted to that of the slowest unit. I understand the problems you're stating with siege tanks, but the solution to one unit not working properly in the current map pool isnt to go and break all the other units, Perhaps a marginally reduced siege up time, or a secondary siege mode upgrade that lets you research a quicker siege or something like that. Also, you have to understand that as the metagame continues to develop and players become more skilled, it would make sense that units which were strong at release with strategies employed then would become less dominant. Siege tanks now fill a nieche roll in the terran army instead of being a staple, and i think thats a good thing - terran have become more mobile and less reliant on tanks which has resulted in more dynamic gameplay. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
Decrease the HP from 45 to 40. Concider all the BUFFS the marine got from BW to sc2 this change makes the most logical sense | ||
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On October 30 2012 09:54 Zergrusher wrote: To nerf the marine is really really simple. Decrease the HP from 45 to 40. Concider all the BUFFS the marine got from BW to sc2 this change makes the most logical sense And make stim completely useless without combat shield and/or medivacs? Good idea! | ||
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
On October 30 2012 09:57 GARcher wrote: And make stim completely useless without combat shield and/or medivacs? Good idea! Maybe a simple reduction in the damage multiplier you get from stimpack useage... that way they retain their mobility and can be micro'd and the health penalty for using stim isnt so great, but their damage output gets scaled back a little bit | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
Very much like Vikings in TvP. If you can remove the Colossi from the equation, your MM will win the fight easily. Or Ghosts to remove High Templar from the equation, so your MM will crush everything. The point I am trying to make is this: playing terran means making MMM, and then killing whatever the other guy builds that counters MMM, so you win. Tanks in TvT are weird in the way all mirror matchups are. You are both using identical units. You make tanks in TvT purely because of their range. BECAUSE THEY REMOVE THE OTHER GUY'S TANKS FROM THE EQUATION, so your MM can kill everything. And you largely make Vikings in TvT to remove the other guy's vikings from the equation... Or to counter BC's if it gets to that point. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
And mech play is just something of our collective imagination. Also no idea how making tanks removes the other guys tanks from the equation (in caps), it just prevents his tanks from moving ahead, but they arent in any way removed from the equation. And you make vikings in TvT for the vision for your tanks. Not because MMM cant counter vikings, but because they cannot do it without getting owned by tanks. But really your logic makes no sense whatsoever. I can also say that stalkers are the only relevant unit for toss, with everything else just to kill the counters to stalkers. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5214 Posts
On October 30 2012 09:40 tsango wrote: For what its worth, I find for the purposes of discussion balance changes like those suggested are best posted in separate threads so that the discussion in any thread is coherant and kept to changes regarding one unit. Very radical changes proposed, i think reducing collosus movement speed to 1.2 from 2.25 would make them damn near useless - they're speed matches with stalkers and chargelots to keep army coherency, as soon as you start making adjustments like that, the mobility of the entire army becomes restricted to that of the slowest unit. I understand the problems you're stating with siege tanks, but the solution to one unit not working properly in the current map pool isnt to go and break all the other units, Perhaps a marginally reduced siege up time, or a secondary siege mode upgrade that lets you research a quicker siege or something like that. Also, you have to understand that as the metagame continues to develop and players become more skilled, it would make sense that units which were strong at release with strategies employed then would become less dominant. Siege tanks now fill a nieche roll in the terran army instead of being a staple, and i think thats a good thing - terran have become more mobile and less reliant on tanks which has resulted in more dynamic gameplay. I don't agree with the idea of having separate threads for each suggestion. As I stated in the Closing Thoughts section: ..."because units are dependent on each other and nothing exists independently, you can't responsibly buff Siege Tanks or remove Vortex without reworking other areas of the game, which in turn effects other areas of the game." In order to make one thing work, I have to change a lot of things. You cannot balance the game one unit at the time. It won't work. About the Colossus specifically, You can load Colossus up into Warp Prisms with speed for more mobility. This requires good micro, and rewards it, and also introduces more risk and cost for using the Colossus. But the Colossus must be changed, it is essentially a moving Tank in siege mode, and perhaps the best example of it being too powerful is the fact that it is the core of every viable PvP army beyond the first few minutes. I disagree about the reduced role of the Siege Tank leading to dynamic game play. As ledarsi said, they counter Infestors and Banelings so your Marines can kill everything else (literally) in TvZ. MMM is an A-move playstyle, but when you can't just a-move around because of units like the Siege Tank, then it becomes more interesting, as you try to outmaneuver your opponent. On October 30 2012 09:57 GARcher wrote: And make stim completely useless without combat shield and/or medivacs? Good idea! The decrease was what I suggested, and with the introduction of Medics and Combat Shield giving +15 health, it does make sense, and is a good idea. Stim would not be completely useless without Combat Shields because of Medics. On October 30 2012 19:08 Sissors wrote: And you make colossi to remove MM from the equation, so your stalkers win the fight easily... I'm not sure you understand. In Marine/Marauder/Medivac, 85%+ of the supply, and 100% of the DPS is locked up in the Marines and Marauders, and Colossus can't hit air units. You make Colossus to kill anything on the ground, and it does a great job at it. And Stalkers don't win the fight for you, the Colossus wins the fight, the Stalkers are there to take damage for the Colossus and counter any Vikings. Tanks on the other hand are there to kill the 25-35% of the Zerg army that hard counters Marines (Banelings and Infestors) because Marines are effective against the rest of the army. The DPS of the Terran army comes from their basic units, while the DPS in a Zerg or Protoss army comes from their Tech units. This can be problematic when you try to introduce a playstyle like Mech, but again, you can combine the basic Bio units with Mech units and create very powerful builds. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
And in TvZ generally I consider it the same, the marines kill the part that the siege tanks arent effective against. Although I do admit that it depends on your playstyle, some people depend more on the siege tanks, some more on the bio. But in the end I dont think it is correct what ledarsi says, that in every matchup it is all about MM where the only role of the other units is support of the MM. | ||
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
On October 30 2012 19:10 BronzeKnee wrote: I don't agree with the idea of having separate threads for each suggestion. As I stated in the Closing Thoughts section: ..."because units are dependent on each other and nothing exists independently, you can't responsibly buff Siege Tanks or remove Vortex without reworking other areas of the game, which in turn effects other areas of the game." In order to make one thing work, I have to change a lot of things. You cannot balance the game one unit at the time. It won't work. About the Colossus specifically, You can load Colossus up into Warp Prisms with speed for more mobility. This requires good micro, and rewards it, and also introduces more risk and cost for using the Colossus. But the Colossus must be changed, it is essentially a moving Tank in siege mode, and perhaps the best example of it being too powerful is the fact that it is the core of every viable PvP army beyond the first few minutes. I disagree about the reduced role of the Siege Tank leading to dynamic game play. As ledarsi said, they counter Infestors and Banelings so your Marines can kill everything else (literally) in TvZ. MMM is an A-move playstyle, but when you can't just a-move around because of units like the Siege Tank, then it becomes more interesting, as you try to outmaneuver your opponent. The decrease was what I suggested, and with the introduction of Medics and Combat Shield giving +15 health, it does make sense, and is a good idea. Stim would not be completely useless without Combat Shields because of Medics. I'm not sure you understand. In Marine/Marauder/Medivac, 85%+ of the supply, and 100% of the DPS is locked up in the Marines and Marauders, and Colossus can't hit air units. You make Colossus to kill anything on the ground, and it does a great job at it. And Stalkers don't win the fight for you, the Colossus wins the fight, the Stalkers are there to take damage for the Colossus and counter any Vikings. Tanks on the other hand are there to kill the 25-35% of the Zerg army that hard counters Marines (Banelings and Infestors) because Marines are effective against the rest of the army. The DPS of the Terran army comes from their basic units, while the DPS in a Zerg or Protoss army comes from their Tech units. This can be problematic when you try to introduce a playstyle like Mech, but again, you can combine the basic Bio units with Mech units and create very powerful builds. I still dont think its fair to nerf collosus by comparing them to siege tanks. Sure they're better, but they're also a tier 3 unit, which costs 300 200, instead of 150 125, and 6 supply vs 3. They also take 30 seconds longer to build than tanks... so yes, they should be vastly superior to tanks. By suggesting to nerf their speed you make a warp prism a requirement to micro them properly which adds another 200minerals to their effective cost and another 2 food which when coupled with the required extra micro would probably make them the least cost effective unit in the game. You're effectively left with a unit that to be used costs 500 200 8food, and requires very high micro - nobody would ever make them. Also, it isnt the go to unit in PvP because its too strong, its the go to unit because every lategame protoss army has to have splash damage, and storms tend to do well against low hp units, and collosus tend to do better overall against higher hp units. That and HT's would be sniped by the other teams range 9 collosus before they were in range to get decent storms off anyway - it just becomes a dominant strategy due to mechanics in that specific matchup. Edit: I forgot to also mention, immortals are probably the hardest counter in the game to siege tanks, so its really not a good unit to use when refering to how bad you think they are. In the same way you wouldnt try and illustrate how bad a mutalisk is by pointing out that groups of marines tend to destroy them. edit2: fixed lance range | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
The only advantage a Siege Tank has is that it has longer range. If Mech is to ever work, the Siege Tank needs to annihilate everything on the ground. There cannot be any ground unit that trades cost effectively against it. This is why Mech in TvT is seen more often than not, as there is not a single unit on the ground that can contest siege tanks. And also why Mech is a solid composition in TvZ since Ultralisks are really the only ground unit that can go toe to toe with Tanks and they are only seen in the late game. In TvP basically almost all of Protoss' ground units trade cost effectively with Siege Tanks, which makes them obsolete. | ||
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Glorfindel21
France51 Posts
One idea that I think is particularly good is the shield-link between units from the mothership, replacing the good old vortex. Regarding every other change in numbers, I don't agree with the method. You can't, I will never repeat it enough, simply throw numbers in play since they are all linked. If you propose a new number for any unit or structure, or tech, time, etc. you must obviously adress all the issues that this change will raise. From the marine to the mule, even if it's to say it doesn't affect this unit, which you may say only after testing. Your post should rely more on ideas (like ItWhoSpeaks does), like your love for tank. Your love for tanks is the real reason of the changes you make, and should be the real matter discussed. In fact, an amusing fact is that due to the link between BW, SC2 and HOTS, if you keep even one single unit from SC2 to HOTS, people will try to make the other ones come again into play. How many posts simply propose to add an "old good unit from BW" as a solution, since they want to apply the same mechanics of gameplay, they are tempted to do so cause both games look alike. I think that the real turning point will be when people will discuss ideas and not numbers from the game. Don't discuss tanks HP, attack, etc. : discuss tank as an idea. I think the tank was "nerfed" so hard (regarding maps and DPS) simply because people had an other IDEA for the game, and this IDEA was to reward more mapcontrol than mapseizing. That's all. | ||
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On October 30 2012 19:10 BronzeKnee wrote: I don't agree with the idea of having separate threads for each suggestion. As I stated in the Closing Thoughts section: ..."because units are dependent on each other and nothing exists independently, you can't responsibly buff Siege Tanks or remove Vortex without reworking other areas of the game, which in turn effects other areas of the game." In order to make one thing work, I have to change a lot of things. You cannot balance the game one unit at the time. It won't work. About the Colossus specifically, You can load Colossus up into Warp Prisms with speed for more mobility. This requires good micro, and rewards it, and also introduces more risk and cost for using the Colossus. But the Colossus must be changed, it is essentially a moving Tank in siege mode, and perhaps the best example of it being too powerful is the fact that it is the core of every viable PvP army beyond the first few minutes. I disagree about the reduced role of the Siege Tank leading to dynamic game play. As ledarsi said, they counter Infestors and Banelings so your Marines can kill everything else (literally) in TvZ. MMM is an A-move playstyle, but when you can't just a-move around because of units like the Siege Tank, then it becomes more interesting, as you try to outmaneuver your opponent. The decrease was what I suggested, and with the introduction of Medics and Combat Shield giving +15 health, it does make sense, and is a good idea. Stim would not be completely useless without Combat Shields because of Medics. I'm not sure you understand. In Marine/Marauder/Medivac, 85%+ of the supply, and 100% of the DPS is locked up in the Marines and Marauders, and Colossus can't hit air units. You make Colossus to kill anything on the ground, and it does a great job at it. And Stalkers don't win the fight for you, the Colossus wins the fight, the Stalkers are there to take damage for the Colossus and counter any Vikings. Tanks on the other hand are there to kill the 25-35% of the Zerg army that hard counters Marines (Banelings and Infestors) because Marines are effective against the rest of the army. The DPS of the Terran army comes from their basic units, while the DPS in a Zerg or Protoss army comes from their Tech units. This can be problematic when you try to introduce a playstyle like Mech, but again, you can combine the basic Bio units with Mech units and create very powerful builds. Combat shield gives 10 health not 15. And no, you don't have medivacs before you tech up to them. The earliest you are going to get a medivac out is around 6:30-7min and that's if you are rushing for them with a 1/1/1. Basically the change would kill off stim pushes (no medivacs) and any sort of early aggression without marauders or stim because stalkers can kite a marine in 4 shots instead of 5 and 1 speedling would probably be able to kill off a marine. Bio + Mech...you mean marine tank? That composition becomes significantly weaker as the game goes on. | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
People always thinks in awesome ideas when the have passion and love for a game.... unlike Blizzard !! I feel bad that this will just stay here and not implemented anywhere T_T ... or be popular Keep it up !! | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
On October 30 2012 19:08 Sissors wrote: And you make colossi to remove MM from the equation, so your stalkers win the fight easily... And mech play is just something of our collective imagination. Also no idea how making tanks removes the other guys tanks from the equation (in caps), it just prevents his tanks from moving ahead, but they arent in any way removed from the equation. And you make vikings in TvT for the vision for your tanks. Not because MMM cant counter vikings, but because they cannot do it without getting owned by tanks. But really your logic makes no sense whatsoever. I can also say that stalkers are the only relevant unit for toss, with everything else just to kill the counters to stalkers. The Protoss is making colossi to counter MM, true. However if you "remove the MM from the equation" then you won the battle because the enemy army is gone. This is quite different from killing a few target key units, and once they are gone (or neutralized with EMP) then the main fight is incredibly one-sided. The difference is that stalkers don't kill everything by themselves. MM does, and quite efficiently. In fact, so efficiently that you can suffer massive casualties in the first few seconds of a battle against colossi, HTs, banelings, fungal, siege tanks, or what have you, and still win the battle if you can deal with those units immediately. I have lost count of the number of battles by terran against zerg or protoss that the start off very badly, and then once the key units from the opponent are gone, the MM (despite how small the army is) still wins. Or, conversely, the key units don't die, and the terran gets wiped. With respect to TvT- if you only needed vision for tanks, Medivacs work. Vikings kill the medivacs, and you need to make vikings to kill the vikings that are killing your medivacs. Tanks are acting as key units, sort of like colossi in TvP. If they can be eliminated (or unsieged) then MM will clean up. And since it is a mirror, both sides have the same unit. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5214 Posts
On October 30 2012 21:30 Zombo Joe wrote: 1 Colossus is objectively better than 2 Siege Tank.. If Mech is to ever work, the Siege Tank needs to annihilate everything on the ground... Could not have said it better myself. The Colossus fills the same basic role as the Siege Tank, and the results of which unit is used more than the other speaks for itself about which is better. The Colossus is used in all three match ups, while the Siege Tank isn't. The Colossus is objectively better. In many ways this is like discussing whether the Marine is better than the Hydralisk. They both fill the same roles, and it should be obvious that the Marine is far superior. And if the Hydralisk is ever to be viable in TvZ, then it needs a buff. Now if you replace Marine with Colossus and Hydralisk with Siege Tank and Tvz with TvP in paragraph, the argument is just as strong and valid. On October 30 2012 22:21 GARcher wrote: Combat shield gives 10 health not 15. And no, you don't have medivacs before you tech up to them. The earliest you are going to get a medivac out is around 6:30-7min and that's if you are rushing for them with a 1/1/1. Buddy, read the OP. Yes I know you can't heal right now without Medivacs, and I know right now Combat Shield gives 10 not 15. This thread isn't about what exists now, this is about what could exist. You're way off in left field talking about something that is totally unrelated. I suggested reducing Marine health from 45 to 40 and to make Combat Shield give 15 instead of 10 health. I also suggested that Medics are added into the game as a Barracks Tech Lab units to compensate for the Marine health nerf. I agree that reducing Marine health alone would be a bad idea. But the point of this thread is that you can't make Siege Tanks viable without changing a bunch of things about the game and those changes all need to be considered as a package, and not individually. So please, read the OP then post. On October 30 2012 21:59 Glorfindel21 wrote: Good post, thanks to BronzeKnee for his hard thoughts about the game. One idea that I think is particularly good is the shield-link between units from the mothership, replacing the good old vortex. Regarding every other change in numbers, I don't agree with the method. You can't, I will never repeat it enough, simply throw numbers in play since they are all linked. If you propose a new number for any unit or structure, or tech, time, etc. you must obviously adress all the issues that this change will raise. From the marine to the mule, even if it's to say it doesn't affect this unit, which you may say only after testing. Your post should rely more on ideas (like ItWhoSpeaks does), like your love for tank. Your love for tanks is the real reason of the changes you make, and should be the real matter discussed. In fact, an amusing fact is that due to the link between BW, SC2 and HOTS, if you keep even one single unit from SC2 to HOTS, people will try to make the other ones come again into play. How many posts simply propose to add an "old good unit from BW" as a solution, since they want to apply the same mechanics of gameplay, they are tempted to do so cause both games look alike. I think that the real turning point will be when people will discuss ideas and not numbers from the game. Don't discuss tanks HP, attack, etc. : discuss tank as an idea. I think the tank was "nerfed" so hard (regarding maps and DPS) simply because people had an other IDEA for the game, and this IDEA was to reward more mapcontrol than mapseizing. That's all. I am thinking there is language barrier here that is preventing me from fully understanding. I throw numbers around to give people an idea of what I am talking about, they are not set in stone, and should be used a framework for my ideas. I also don't love Siege Tanks, but I do love positional play. Also, map control and map seizing to me are the same thing. Right now, map control isn't worth as much as it should be in my opinion. If an opponent sieges up my expansion like in the pictures in the OP, that should be checkmate, lost expansion. I should not have let my opponent get in that position, and should have been more out on the map and challenging him for space. But instead I have enough a-move Immortals that I walked through him, even if he has the better position and map control. And that is one of the problems with SC2 regarding counters. They require very little skill to use and the game becomes a game of rock-paper-scissors, where the real skill is in scouting so you can know what your opponent is going to throw, and adjust accordingly. That isn't a bad game, but it is less interesting in my opinion than something like the Immortal countering the Siege Tank when out of Siege Mode, while the Siege Tank counters the Immortal while in Siege Mode, which leads to interesting positional play. | ||
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