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On October 26 2012 02:49 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 00:46 CikaZombi wrote:On October 25 2012 22:43 5ukkub wrote:On October 25 2012 11:59 IdrA wrote:
the fact that theres actually people saying im too light on blizzard or that im happy/complacent with what theyre doing is the most damning proof ive ever seen that people will say anything to be obstinate assholes. Nobody said you are too light on Blizzard, nobody said you're happy/complacent with them. You said, and IncontroL agreed, that pressuring Blizzard is a nonsense, because they didn't do anything noticable to fix the game client and make it more casual-friendly, so can't ecpect them to suddenly change their approach. Well, i for one disagree, because YOU, the players, commentators, hosts aka PILLARS OF THE COMMUNITY never should stop voicing our concerns and thoughts about the game!Because you are being heared, not us! So when you stopped voicing those concerns, what the community is supposed to do? You can't ignore us! We all see what's going on with SC2 client and how other game's viewer counts rise, but our don't! And then came Destinny. He wrote what he wrote and it was the only thing that community could relate to!So do you want Destiny to be the voice of the community, or you, IdrA, IncontroL, djWheat? Idra and Incontrol never stopped voicing. Never. Incontrol does with with more humor, often ridiculing Blizzard's decisions. Idra is definantly more vocal about it and more explicit, which resulted in even Blizzard trolling him with the Hots beta key if anyone sill remembers. And they will always be like that if Blizzard screws up. The topics Destiny brought weren't new, and they were discussed many times before by many different influential persons in the community, including Idra and Incontrol. The main difference is the attitude. While they disagree, with the way they are supposed to approach to Blizzard and what to expect of them, and they voice in perfectly - imo - especially during the times everyone is acting irrational and overreacting. Which is the freaking job of the people that had been here the longest. The problem here is, and what hurts my soul, is that they couldn't have an argumented discussion with Destiny at no point of this show. Destiny was interrupting all the time and acting very very immature and this seemed like an argument with your parents when you are like 16 or 17 at most. Which is probably why so many people on reddit agree and praise him, because they are just those kinds of children. Destiny is a smart and passionate individual, but he couldn't calm down and, was jumping from topic to topic and just blaming Blizzard for everything that did, and what he assumed they won't do. Even when the ITG people told him that some of the issues he brought up WILL be fixed in the expansion, he ignored that and immediately jumped to the next issue. He was like a kid that wanted a Playstation for a birthday, and got a bike. Then his parents apologized, and got him a Playstation for his next birthday, but he was like: "ITS TOO LATE NOW, I STILL HATE YOU". He is never going to be happy, if Blizzard implemented the things he wanted TOMORROW, he would still just say: "Pfft, fucking finally!" You can't turn back time. Yes, it sucked these 2 years that they didn't do the stuff everyone wanted and expected them to do BUT they are either fixing it as we speak or they are aware of it and not doing it for various reasons we don't know. It might be their team is too small, it might be they don't get enough funds for additional programmers, it might be they want to save alot of content and release it as a selling point for an expansion, or they just don't deem them necessary. We. Don't. Know. But they DO care, and everyone knows this. This has been said, and the reasons were speculated on this show by Inc Idra and DjWheat, but to no avail. Knowing all this, it is NOT in our best interest to blame mommy and daddy and/or fight among ourselves, but to freaking unite and do what we can to better our game, our community and raise awareness for Blizzard. That's. It. Now the part that pisses me off is this: Destiny acted like a freaking teenager. When his argument met a brick wall, he changed the topic. Then when Idra had enough and just said what has been on everyone's mind the entire time, which was the absolute most positive thing anyone can say about the game they love to someone that is clearly too fed up with Blizzard and wont change his attitude, and the high five proceeded to happen (which I view not as a douchy move, but as a comradery "I'm fucking proud of what you said" moment, Destiny then shat on the players, and left as a freaking coward. Then Wheat lost it, because that's not how arguments with grownups are supposed to go. Nowhere in the freaking world. Nowhere. He lost it, because of the person that has been invited to his damn show, showed no capacity and respect to argue, then left like a child, when he deemed himself fed up enough. Wheat didn't even tell him to fuck off, he was just so mad that he would pussy out like that that he HAD to say something. What he said wasn't coherent, wasn't meant to hurt or belittle anyone, it was just pure rage, disbelief, and dissapointment. And people still got on Destiny's side. People still thought of him as a freaking martyr. I mean... Really? I GET maybe pitting against Geoff and Greg, because they have many haters but DjfreakingWheat? The guy who lives and breathes for this shit? But let's assume we have a debate. Just before the debate begins, I make a huge personal attack on you, and state that what you just writtien, is the most idiotic thing ever. Now the debate begins. Do you honestly expect your self to stay completely calm? I think Destiny could could have behaved better, but the guy who who began the shitstorm is IMO the primary guy to blame for how the debate had turned out. I am convinced the debate had turned out much more civil, had Incontrol not made that shitstorm on Destiny before the debate.
Were they aware that Destiny was coming on? Besides, that is how Inc talks. Everyone knows this. Destiny knows this, and was damn well expecting it. This wasn't even one of the worst of Geoff's rants. But that's who he is. He is on the damn show because of his rants and the way he articulates things. This was more light and more over the top exaggeration on purpose to poke at Destiny's doomsday prophesies (which in the way he words things he totally deserves), while telling him at least two times that he is actually a smart guy and that he and everyone else who has ever touched, smelled or seen SC2 knows about these issues.
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On October 26 2012 04:00 zedest wrote:
Personally seemed like Idra and Incontrol were being douches to destiny saying how wrong he was then offering no solution of there own.
Just the conclusion I came to anyways
The "solutions" Destiny is talking about are, for the most part, not new. Others, including the ITG crew have been aware of them for quite some time and also addressed them. The problem is that Blizzard hasn't done much with the suggestions and the critique and doesn't need it; They probably are aware of stuff like this anyway. It's not like now that Destiny is addressing them Blizzard will suddenly implement them. However, the success of LoL is undoubtedly not missed by Blizzard. They will implement some of this stuff. But not because of Destiny or anyone else.
The ITG crew called Destiny out for pulling random numbers out of his ass, overreact and not being a positive factor but a negative one. And rightfully so. They were fully aware of what Destiny was saying, misunderstood nothing. Destiny however, did not understand of what he was accused. You could argue, maybe, that someone should have explained all this prior to inviting Destiny. I personally understood everything that happened because I had prior knowledge of it all. But even if I knew nothing of this I would have enjoyed it. Great InControll rant.
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My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2.
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On October 26 2012 04:29 sparkk51 wrote:
I just don't understand how they couldn't agree with the basic argument that a more casual friendly game will attract more of an esports following. They kept attacking what Painuser was trying to argue at the end of the "debate" simply becuase they couldn't see through the context of the situation. Painuser was not defending Destiny's entire argument, or even the level of significance a casual population has in esports. All he was trying to point out was that games with a larger casual gamer base will attract more of an audience for tournaments. Really appalled at the mob mentality that seemed to take over Inc and Wheat.
They weren't really saying that destiny's suggestions were bad, they've been calling for the same changes to the custom games and UI since day one. What they were mad about is Destiny's assertion that the only way Pro SC2 is going to make it to LOTV is if Blizzard makes these changes, and that the community can't really do anything other than try to get Blizzard to make changes.
IdrA and iNcontroL come from the point of view that they've been calling for all of these changes for over two years now and we haven't really seen much motion from Blizzard, either because Blizzard doesn't like the changes or can't do the changes. Therefore, why put all your eggs in the "get Blizz to change the game" basket. There are still plenty of things that people outside of Blizzard can do to make the scene better, whether it be teams doing more PR work, tournaments being better about how they work, community members creating more content, etc. Destiny's big post basically dismissed all of the work people outside of Blizzard could be doing. The EG guys have more or less given up on Blizzard making the changes that both they and Destiny want.
Destiny then accused those guys of "defending Blizzard" and being okay with the status quo, which is ridiculous. He ignored what they were trying to say, and then put words in their mouths to make his argument sound better.
Painuser tried to take the middle ground and say that we shouldn't let up on Blizzard, but that the assertion that the community can do nothing on its own is wrong.
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Did we just start? Did I miss anything? Says we just started so I guess not as they're not really talking either?
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On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2.
This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2.
The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful.
Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was.
Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them.
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I can tell you as a software project manager at University of Michigan, programmer's time is extremely limited. When they finish a project(i.e. WoL) they immediately get to working on a new project(i.e. HotS). I can promise you that Blizzard does not have a big group of programmers that continually work to better WoL, their business model doesn't work that way. This is also the reason why things haven't changed in 2 years, Blizzard has to make real BUSINESS decisions on what to include in a release of a game. They decided gameplay was more important then having multiple people watch the same replay or spectate pro's games. Think about the differences between SC and games like LoL in terms of technicality. SC 2 is way more complex to 1) create 2) make the complex game data transfers small enough to play in real time online. Comparing Blizzard with Riot games is comparing apples to oranges. I think someone pointed this out in a previous post, they have 2 completely separate business models, Blizzard has the traditional buy once play forever, and Riot has micro-transactions. Riot games also has ONE game to support and develop while Blizzard has many. Blizzard HAS to make changes in 'releases' to make money! Continuously improving non critical things does not help them. I'm sure Blizzard believes and is probably correct in assuming that adding these small things in a patch will not bring enough new buyers to WoL to justify spending the time on it.
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On October 26 2012 04:54 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 04:29 sparkk51 wrote:
I just don't understand how they couldn't agree with the basic argument that a more casual friendly game will attract more of an esports following. They kept attacking what Painuser was trying to argue at the end of the "debate" simply becuase they couldn't see through the context of the situation. Painuser was not defending Destiny's entire argument, or even the level of significance a casual population has in esports. All he was trying to point out was that games with a larger casual gamer base will attract more of an audience for tournaments. Really appalled at the mob mentality that seemed to take over Inc and Wheat. They weren't really saying that destiny's suggestions were bad, they've been calling for the same changes to the custom games and UI since day one. What they were mad about is Destiny's assertion that the only way Pro SC2 is going to make it to LOTV is if Blizzard makes these changes, and that the community can't really do anything other than try to get Blizzard to make changes. IdrA and iNcontroL come from the point of view that they've been calling for all of these changes for over two years now and we haven't really seen much motion from Blizzard, either because Blizzard doesn't like the changes or can't do the changes. Therefore, why put all your eggs in the "get Blizz to change the game" basket. There are still plenty of things that people outside of Blizzard can do to make the scene better, whether it be teams doing more PR work, tournaments being better about how they work, community members creating more content, etc. Destiny's big post basically dismissed all of the work people outside of Blizzard could be doing. The EG guys have more or less given up on Blizzard making the changes that both they and Destiny want. Destiny then accused those guys of "defending Blizzard" and being okay with the status quo, which is ridiculous. He ignored what they were trying to say, and then put words in their mouths to make his argument sound better. Painuser tried to take the middle ground and say that we shouldn't let up on Blizzard, but that the assertion that the community can do nothing on its own is wrong.
How did it appear to you that I was summarizing the entire debate? I was talking about a simple point Painuser was being attacked for, undeservedly.
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On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them.
I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act.
IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up.
at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games.
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On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically.
No it's not. In that same sentence he says, "it may not be starcraft 2 but there are more people watching content"
Pay attention ffs!
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On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically.
A lot of what you have said is totally incorrect and taken out of context which is what has made the bashing on the ITG completely unfair.
Incontrol and Idra aren't "afraid of things getting heated up" they want blizzard to do things, what they don't want is negativitiy and doom and gloom in the community which is all that the post by destiny has achieved.
DJwheat explained stream numbers are up overall but because there are more games the views are spread over a much wider range.
It used to be that all you could watch was SC2. Now you can watch LoL and Dota2 aswell.
Numbers are up overall, just there is more stuff to watch.
Also the community and the pro players have been whining at blizzard for two years and overall the change has been slow or non-existant so why do we expect more to do anything. Just focus on the things that are in our control rather than spraying a huge wave of negativity
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On October 26 2012 05:38 Savant.GL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. A lot of what you have said is totally incorrect and taken out of context which is what has made the bashing on the ITG completely unfair. Incontrol and Idra aren't "afraid of things getting heated up" they want blizzard to do things, what they don't want is negativitiy and doom and gloom in the community which is all that the post by destiny has achieved. DJwheat explained stream numbers are up overall but because there are more games the views are spread over a much wider range. It used to be that all you could watch was SC2. Now you can watch LoL and Dota2 aswell. Numbers are up overall, just there is more stuff to watch. Also the community and the pro players have been whining at blizzard for two years and overall the change has been slow or non-existant so why do we expect more to do anything. Just focus on the things that are in our control rather than spraying a huge wave of negativity
sorry about my mistake about djwheats comment on stream viewer numbers.
but my point stands. Some of you maybe okay with things now, but i am not. Too many people agree with destiny, and its not that we are jumping on bandwagon, these things were in our minds long ago. My sc2 copy is eating the dust for 9 months, I don't even consider playing it for now. Battle.net feels empty, the game feels empty and boring. Well I would just shut up and move on. But hey! HoTS is coming, and certainly there is some dev team, Blizzard are holding some staff to shapen the game up, why don't we try to help them, pointing out the problems? why don't we make them hear us? Some random guy making battle forum suggestions isn't quite enough, we as a community can do something, aren't we?
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I feel so much better watching this when thinking of how ridiculous the drama has been. I was sad to hear about Moletrap though  . I met him when I was at the IPL TAC finals in SF and he seemed like such a nice guy and so excited about going to Korea. I hope things work out for him.
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Edit:Bugger this for a larke.
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On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games.
its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen.
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On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen.
Understood, but why were you guys seemingly blowing off the notion that a game's casual gamer base largely affects tournament viewership? Yes, Destiny's claims were highly exaggerated and his intentions questionable, but I don't understand why Incontrol and Wheat attacked Painuser for simply pointing out that the effects a game's casual population has on esports are significant.
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On October 26 2012 06:42 sparkk51 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. Understood, but why were you guys seemingly blowing off the notion that a game's casual gamer base largely affects tournament viewership? Yes, Destiny's claims were highly exaggerated and his intentions questionable, but I don't understand why Incontrol and Wheat attacked Painuser for simply pointing out that the effects a game's casual population has on esports are significant.
did you just not listen at all?
we said itd be excellent if blizzard did that. they havent, theyre probably not going to. its not the end of the world.
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I think it was awesome to see Idra remain pretty damn calm during the entire exchange. sure, he said a few things he probably shouldn't have if you think about it (such as "shut the fuck up"), but for the most part he remained a lot more collected and to the point than Destiny, Wheat and Incontrol. this appears to me to be a rather drastic change from the Idra of a few years ago. i like it a lot. what i've always loved most about him is the fact that he'll just say what he thinks no matter what, and he still does that, but in a more collected and well thought out way than he used to. at least in my opinion.
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On October 26 2012 06:42 sparkk51 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. Understood, but why were you guys seemingly blowing off the notion that a game's casual gamer base largely affects tournament viewership? Yes, Destiny's claims were highly exaggerated and his intentions questionable, but I don't understand why Incontrol and Wheat attacked Painuser for simply pointing out that the effects a game's casual population has on esports are significant.
That also ignores the fact that Blizzard is taking steps to attract casuals. The XP system, working on the custom game system, clan support, "XP" and more have been promised for HotS, and let's not forget that they're working on a a free to play MOBA in the SC2 client as well. Is that all they could do? No, but Destiny was pretending that they aren't doing anything, and then arguing that they should have done it earlier when someone pointed out that his complaint was being addressed.
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On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen.
Ok i get it. So we should just basically settle down and accept it all.
Accept that SC2 won't be able to achieve LoL's popularity and Blizzard is just bad and won't do anything.
Because it's very hard for me you know? It's hard for me to accept that:/
I love SC2 and i would like it to be THE esport.
I think many of us feel that way, and this frustration finally had to explode somehow, with some ignition provided by Destiny.
1 question though... how did you manage to accept that beforehand?
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EPT
