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Well I watched the latest and I don't understand all the drama. It was like 30secs of yelling. So what? Parliament goes for 1 hour and there's plenty of yelling over the top of each other
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Vatican City State334 Posts
On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen.
I see all this like an argument between a guy and his girlfriend. SC2 appeared on the scene a few years ago looking sexy as fuck, and eSports wanted a piece of that hot ass. Now SC2 has gained weight, uncertainty over SC2's HotS pregnancy is causing stress in the household, and eSports is sneaking out during the night. SC2 thinks eSports might be having drunken sex with League Of Legends, whose tit jobs and butt injections are making her a more attractive proposition month on month.
The point I'm going to make is that sometimes a big argument can be cathartic and not something to be feared, it not only clears the air but you can see it as a test of bonds. I'm sure the bonds tying the SC2 scene together can't be broken by a couple negative Destiny posts, if they can then the whole thing is really fragile in the first place. In the long term I think it's positive for everyone to know where they stand by at least trying something different by getting Blizzard's attention this way. Better than to be quiet and let the negative feeling fester while everything stagnates.
I think you're giving up on Blizzard as quick as you gave up on some of your matches by saying they're shit and won't fix anything, they have implemented changes if slowly and it definitely does matter what they do. A higher quality game experience will mean a bigger and better scene. In the last few months Blizzard has become extra receptive to changes if you read their forums, they're taking the HotS feedback seriously.
You never know, after the big argument we may find out eSports breaks down crying and tells SC2 he wasn't sneaking out late at night to have drunken sex with League Of Legends at all, in fact he was making all sorts of plans for a wedding! Then Heart Of The Swarm is born and it doesn't turn out to be the retard baby predicted by the doctor, but a wonderful and unique snowflake.
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Normally love wheat and do not like destiny to much, but this Episode was different..I think wheat went to far in how he approached destiny, in general no one (exept maybe painuser to some degree) wanted to actually talk with destiny about the problem or possible solutions but tell him how wrong it is to make a comment about the game in such a manner.
When you than listen to for example Idra arguing why he acted like he did, you might ask yourself if dealing with destiny in this manner took any drama out of the situation or made it even bigger. I d go with the 2nd one.
And why wheat went on such a rent after destiny ragequited is in my eyes not ok ether, i mean this guy is the man, and i still love him but sometimes i would hope he acted less like incontol`s fuck buddy.
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I just rewatched it to make sure I was remembering things correctly, and I was.
Destiny came on from the start berating them for disagreeing with what he was saying when they didn't.
Idra and incontrol calmly explained that he was right but his approach is wrong because it acheives nothing but hurting the community whatsoever.
Painuser continually chimes in diverting the conversation back to how Destiny made valid points and that we should all agree to that when everyone ALWAYS agreed with that and it's totally beside the point.
After half an hour of Destiny repeating the same shit and missing the point, Idra tells him that if he has no faith in the game and no faith that anyone but Blizzard can fix it, he should just go over to LoL since they don't have the same problem.
Destiny then insults Idra and incontrol and hangs up before they can respond.
Wheat justifiably rages in classic DJ wheat style which he has done dozens of times and is nothing new, in response to Destiny's silly behaviour.
The conversation then gets back to the point, after Painuser one last time insists that we should agree with the stuff they have all said they agree with a million times.
Then Reddit turns on dj wheat of all people, one of the most important people in e-sports, for doing what he always does in the face of an ill-behaved caller. The only difference here is the caller was Destiny who has a cultish following who want to destroy anyone who displeases him.
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On October 26 2012 06:55 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 06:42 sparkk51 wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. Understood, but why were you guys seemingly blowing off the notion that a game's casual gamer base largely affects tournament viewership? Yes, Destiny's claims were highly exaggerated and his intentions questionable, but I don't understand why Incontrol and Wheat attacked Painuser for simply pointing out that the effects a game's casual population has on esports are significant. did you just not listen at all? we said itd be excellent if blizzard did that. they havent, theyre probably not going to. its not the end of the world.
I wasn't regarding anything about changes to sc2 or battlenet. I heard your stance on this. I am questioning the aformentioned concept concerning casuals and esports.
To that point, I did watch the VOD of the latest episode. Painuser was just defending this idea, and his words were berated as if the other hosts were against it. Neither of you, except Painuser, agreed with the significance casuals have on esports. Instead, only Destiny's claims of it were clearly rebutted.
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On October 26 2012 07:54 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
Then Reddit turns on dj wheat of all people, one of the most important people in e-sports, for doing what he always does in the face of an ill-behaved caller. The only difference here is the caller was Destiny who has a cultish following who want to destroy anyone who displeases him.
I see a lot of people saying this but I really don't think destiny has that kind of love affair with the SC2 community anymore. Sure he's still kind of popular but I think most of the backlash against Wheat is because people were genuinely offended. I don't think Destiny fanboys could account for all the backlast we've seen. I can't imagine why they were so offended though, the only thing that was kind of dickish was the high 5 and the 'getting a raise' comment. Even that was pretty tame when you really think about it. This community is hyper-sensitive though.
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On October 26 2012 08:03 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 07:54 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
Then Reddit turns on dj wheat of all people, one of the most important people in e-sports, for doing what he always does in the face of an ill-behaved caller. The only difference here is the caller was Destiny who has a cultish following who want to destroy anyone who displeases him. I see a lot of people saying this but I really don't think destiny has that kind of love affair with the SC2 community anymore. Sure he's still kind of popular but I think most of the backlash against Wheat is because people were genuinely offended. I don't think Destiny fanboys could account for all the backlast we've seen. I can't imagine why they were so offended though, the only thing that was kind of dickish was the high 5 and the 'getting a raise' comment. Even that was pretty tame when you really think about it. This community is hyper-sensitive though.
I don't think anyone is genuinely offended at all. I think people like to feel offended and upset about stuff and then post that on forums and reddit. This community is hyper-sensitive to anyone who is not super polite, beyond the point of reason. There is a section of the community that just lives to be offended and feel powerful when it is taken seriously.
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On October 26 2012 07:20 5ukkub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. Ok i get it. So we should just basically settle down and accept it all. Accept that SC2 won't be able to achieve LoL's popularity and Blizzard is just bad and won't do anything. Because it's very hard for me you know? It's hard for me to accept that:/ I love SC2 and i would like it to be THE esport. I think many of us feel that way, and this frustration finally had to explode somehow, with some ignition provided by Destiny. 1 question though... how did you manage to accept that beforehand?
it's been over 2 years since the release of WoL, and the things that people have been asking of blizzard have not been delivered, see, the community did complain years ago, and they never delivered.
Why are you and many others complaining about it now? Is it because Destiny made a post, and also added a bit of sc2-death drama to it?
The flaws Destiny pointed out should be fucking obvious, they aren't new, it's been like that since release. You should've accepted Blizzard's incompetence years ago.
at least Idra and others have already realized this, and yes, even Idra is saying that it's best to work with what we have. We as a community CAN attract people to SC2 without the aid of Blizzard, but the QQing sure isn't helping
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On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen.
To put it simply, you are concerned about your income. Your primary interest in SC2 is financial. You don't even like the game and have accepted it will never be good, but want to continue making money from a bad game. Because you look at it from a financial perspective, people rocking the boat upsets you because they threaten the continued flow of money into yours (and Blizzard's) pockets.
However Destiny is looking it at the perspective of the community as a whole. Why should any Starcraft fan care how much money EG and Blizzard are making? Our interest in the game is entertainment. If the game is not entertaining to play or watch why should anyone care if it dies, other than people who have financial interest in it (you, iNcontrol, Blizzard, etc).
An average TL poster is not riding the Blizzard gravy train with you. In fact, the community is funding it! Threatening Blizzard's profits by publicly protesting their greedy and careless attitude towards SC2, and encouraging people to not buy HOTS if it isn't improved, is the only way to get them to care. They only understand money.
In fact, the loud public complaints got Blizzard to take immediate action and release some mockups they probably frantically drew up when they realized they had to do something. So it is very effective. Far more effective than your "just shut up and keep spending money on Blizzard and related products" attitude, which is motivated only by your personal greed.
Ironically it is the extreme effectiveness of publicly complaining and giving bad buzz to a product that has you so upset, despite the fact you keep claiming you oppose it due to ineffectiveness.
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On October 26 2012 08:23 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. To put it simply, you are concerned about your income. Your primary interest in SC2 is financial. You don't even like the game and have accepted it will never be good, but want to continue making money from a bad game. Because you look at it from a financial perspective, people rocking the boat upsets you because they threaten the continued flow of money into yours (and Blizzard's) pockets. However Destiny is looking it at the perspective of the community as a whole. Why should any Starcraft fan care how much money EG and Blizzard are making? Our interest in the game is entertainment. If the game is not entertaining to play or watch why should anyone care if it dies, other than people who have financial interest in it (you, iNcontrol, Blizzard, etc). An average TL poster is not riding the Blizzard gravy train with you. In fact, the community is funding it! Threatening Blizzard's profits by publicly protesting their greedy and careless attitude towards SC2, and encouraging people to not buy HOTS if it isn't improved, is the only way to get them to care. They only understand money. In fact, the loud public complaints got Blizzard to take immediate action and release some mockups they probably frantically drew up when they realized they had to do something. So it is very effective. Far more effective than your "just shut up and keep spending money on Blizzard and related products" attitude, which is motivated only by your personal greed. Ironically it is the extreme effectiveness of publicly complaining and giving bad buzz to a product that has you so upset, despite the fact you keep claiming you oppose it due to ineffectiveness.
destiny is certainly not interested in the blizzard gravy train...../s/ what a joke post.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
income is such a funny thing in gaming. I am getting SO much hate because Destiny LITERALLY asked "what is happening to your salary?" and I answered truthfully.. then people are shocked that I would get a raise and start making fun of me for "not performing well" as if I WAS EVER PAID for my performance. I have ALWAYS been a multi talented individual that gets paid for the sum not the parts.
IdrA is NOT worried about his salary. He will always make money off of gaming until he decides to leave. Sorry, it's the truth. Same with me. So stop thinking this is some odd insecurity we have where idra and I looked at each other and realized we had to create a shadow government to protect our assets or something.. come on. We are legit happy with the overall SC2 scene and at the same time unhappy wit the game itself. Us acknowledging the community has power and saying it isn't all up to Blizzard IS NOT some odd deflection to protect our moneyz
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On October 26 2012 08:16 EtohEtoh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 07:20 5ukkub wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. Ok i get it. So we should just basically settle down and accept it all. Accept that SC2 won't be able to achieve LoL's popularity and Blizzard is just bad and won't do anything. Because it's very hard for me you know? It's hard for me to accept that:/ I love SC2 and i would like it to be THE esport. I think many of us feel that way, and this frustration finally had to explode somehow, with some ignition provided by Destiny. 1 question though... how did you manage to accept that beforehand? it's been over 2 years since the release of WoL, and the things that people have been asking of blizzard have not been delivered, see, the community did complain years ago, and they never delivered. Why are you and many others complaining about it now? Is it because Destiny made a post, and also added a bit of sc2-death drama to it? The flaws Destiny pointed out should be fucking obvious, they aren't new, it's been like that since release. You should've accepted Blizzard's incompetence years ago. at least Idra and others have already realized this, and yes, even Idra is saying that it's best to work with what we have. We as a community CAN attract people to SC2 without the aid of Blizzard, but the QQing sure isn't helping
They are complaining now because HOTS beta has been released. Blizzard will make changes to the game if they think they are necessary to reach their desired sales of HOTS.
Complaining in the past was useless because Blizzard's attitude was, "you already bought the game, why should anyone care if you aren't enjoying it?"
The upcoming release of HOTS presents a perfect opportunity to get changes made.
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On October 26 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:23 Portlandian wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. To put it simply, you are concerned about your income. Your primary interest in SC2 is financial. You don't even like the game and have accepted it will never be good, but want to continue making money from a bad game. Because you look at it from a financial perspective, people rocking the boat upsets you because they threaten the continued flow of money into yours (and Blizzard's) pockets. However Destiny is looking it at the perspective of the community as a whole. Why should any Starcraft fan care how much money EG and Blizzard are making? Our interest in the game is entertainment. If the game is not entertaining to play or watch why should anyone care if it dies, other than people who have financial interest in it (you, iNcontrol, Blizzard, etc). An average TL poster is not riding the Blizzard gravy train with you. In fact, the community is funding it! Threatening Blizzard's profits by publicly protesting their greedy and careless attitude towards SC2, and encouraging people to not buy HOTS if it isn't improved, is the only way to get them to care. They only understand money. In fact, the loud public complaints got Blizzard to take immediate action and release some mockups they probably frantically drew up when they realized they had to do something. So it is very effective. Far more effective than your "just shut up and keep spending money on Blizzard and related products" attitude, which is motivated only by your personal greed. Ironically it is the extreme effectiveness of publicly complaining and giving bad buzz to a product that has you so upset, despite the fact you keep claiming you oppose it due to ineffectiveness. destiny is certainly not interested in the blizzard gravy train...../s/ what a joke post.
He has clearly shown he has no reluctance to try and derail it to get Blizzard's attention. That is what got the EG fatcats feather's ruffled in the first place.
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On October 26 2012 08:03 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 07:54 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
Then Reddit turns on dj wheat of all people, one of the most important people in e-sports, for doing what he always does in the face of an ill-behaved caller. The only difference here is the caller was Destiny who has a cultish following who want to destroy anyone who displeases him. I see a lot of people saying this but I really don't think destiny has that kind of love affair with the SC2 community anymore. Sure he's still kind of popular but I think most of the backlash against Wheat is because people were genuinely offended. I don't think Destiny fanboys could account for all the backlast we've seen. I can't imagine why they were so offended though, the only thing that was kind of dickish was the high 5 and the 'getting a raise' comment. Even that was pretty tame when you really think about it. This community is hyper-sensitive though.
EG gets plenty of hate; and they see Wheat as just a proxy for them, so the haters target him as well.
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On October 26 2012 08:27 iNcontroL wrote:
income is such a funny thing in gaming. I am getting SO much hate because Destiny LITERALLY asked "what is happening to your salary?" and I answered truthfully.. then people are shocked that I would get a raise and start making fun of me for "not performing well" as if I WAS EVER PAID for my performance. I have ALWAYS been a multi talented individual that gets paid for the sum not the parts.
IdrA is NOT worried about his salary. He will always make money off of gaming until he decides to leave. Sorry, it's the truth. Same with me. So stop thinking this is some odd insecurity we have where idra and I looked at each other and realized we had to create a shadow government to protect our assets or something.. come on. We are legit happy with the overall SC2 scene and at the same time unhappy wit the game itself. Us acknowledging the community has power and saying it isn't all up to Blizzard IS NOT some odd deflection to protect our moneyz
Idra said very clearly in his post he doesn't like negative buzz about SC2 because it will scare away sponsors. His concern here is financially motivated. I guess he is just more honest than you.
Your ridiculous strawman about "shadow government" just shows how clearly I have hit the nail on the head.
You are upset about the "fix it or we're going to sink it with negative publicity attitude" because you don't care if SC2 is fun, you don't care if it is entertaining, you only care that it continues to be profitable for yourself and your friends.
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On October 26 2012 07:54 fuzzylogic44 wrote:
I just rewatched it to make sure I was remembering things correctly, and I was.
Destiny came on from the start berating them for disagreeing with what he was saying when they didn't.
Idra and incontrol calmly explained that he was right but his approach is wrong because it acheives nothing but hurting the community whatsoever.
Painuser continually chimes in diverting the conversation back to how Destiny made valid points and that we should all agree to that when everyone ALWAYS agreed with that and it's totally beside the point.
After half an hour of Destiny repeating the same shit and missing the point, Idra tells him that if he has no faith in the game and no faith that anyone but Blizzard can fix it, he should just go over to LoL since they don't have the same problem.
Destiny then insults Idra and incontrol and hangs up before they can respond.
Wheat justifiably rages in classic DJ wheat style which he has done dozens of times and is nothing new, in response to Destiny's silly behaviour.
The conversation then gets back to the point, after Painuser one last time insists that we should agree with the stuff they have all said they agree with a million times.
Then Reddit turns on dj wheat of all people, one of the most important people in e-sports, for doing what he always does in the face of an ill-behaved caller. The only difference here is the caller was Destiny who has a cultish following who want to destroy anyone who displeases him.
This is quite an accurate portrayal of events.
It's pretty similar to what I thought. Although i'd add that Destiny was shouting over the rest the most. I think he went about 2 or 3 mins before he started shouting and was consisntly chirping in when somebody else was talking. The rest were trying till around half way to have a discussion with him then it devolved into a shout-off. The whole high five thing left a bit of a bad taste for me.
Wheat blowing his top at the end didn't surprise me. Pushed the boundary of over the top too far maybe. It was really painfull watching LO3 and seeing Wheat so crushed. The guy works so hard and everyone in e-sports seems to have a story of how DjWheat helped them out. E-sports certainly wouldn't have progressed as well without him since he got quite a few people into the right places (eg ReDeYe) for us. I think he has earned forgiveness if he goes to far and owns up to that and says he won't do it again (which he did!). The level of hate he is getting would be justified if he stole money from a team or company. He shouted and said bad words to somebody and hurt their feelings....
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On October 26 2012 08:32 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:23 Portlandian wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. To put it simply, you are concerned about your income. Your primary interest in SC2 is financial. You don't even like the game and have accepted it will never be good, but want to continue making money from a bad game. Because you look at it from a financial perspective, people rocking the boat upsets you because they threaten the continued flow of money into yours (and Blizzard's) pockets. However Destiny is looking it at the perspective of the community as a whole. Why should any Starcraft fan care how much money EG and Blizzard are making? Our interest in the game is entertainment. If the game is not entertaining to play or watch why should anyone care if it dies, other than people who have financial interest in it (you, iNcontrol, Blizzard, etc). An average TL poster is not riding the Blizzard gravy train with you. In fact, the community is funding it! Threatening Blizzard's profits by publicly protesting their greedy and careless attitude towards SC2, and encouraging people to not buy HOTS if it isn't improved, is the only way to get them to care. They only understand money. In fact, the loud public complaints got Blizzard to take immediate action and release some mockups they probably frantically drew up when they realized they had to do something. So it is very effective. Far more effective than your "just shut up and keep spending money on Blizzard and related products" attitude, which is motivated only by your personal greed. Ironically it is the extreme effectiveness of publicly complaining and giving bad buzz to a product that has you so upset, despite the fact you keep claiming you oppose it due to ineffectiveness. destiny is certainly not interested in the blizzard gravy train...../s/ what a joke post. He has clearly shown he has no reluctance to try and derail it to get Blizzard's attention. That is what got the EG fatcats feather's ruffled in the first place.
blizzard doesnt give him money, so pissing off blizzard does not harm him nor does it derail his gravy. he gets "paid" based on his PR (since he cant win anything). i find it hard to believe that this whole thing was some magnanimous gesture to get the community talking. he just wants attention, which increases his gravy.
i thought he switched to LoL anyways....wtf is he doing back....
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On October 26 2012 08:32 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:23 Portlandian wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. To put it simply, you are concerned about your income. Your primary interest in SC2 is financial. You don't even like the game and have accepted it will never be good, but want to continue making money from a bad game. Because you look at it from a financial perspective, people rocking the boat upsets you because they threaten the continued flow of money into yours (and Blizzard's) pockets. However Destiny is looking it at the perspective of the community as a whole. Why should any Starcraft fan care how much money EG and Blizzard are making? Our interest in the game is entertainment. If the game is not entertaining to play or watch why should anyone care if it dies, other than people who have financial interest in it (you, iNcontrol, Blizzard, etc). An average TL poster is not riding the Blizzard gravy train with you. In fact, the community is funding it! Threatening Blizzard's profits by publicly protesting their greedy and careless attitude towards SC2, and encouraging people to not buy HOTS if it isn't improved, is the only way to get them to care. They only understand money. In fact, the loud public complaints got Blizzard to take immediate action and release some mockups they probably frantically drew up when they realized they had to do something. So it is very effective. Far more effective than your "just shut up and keep spending money on Blizzard and related products" attitude, which is motivated only by your personal greed. Ironically it is the extreme effectiveness of publicly complaining and giving bad buzz to a product that has you so upset, despite the fact you keep claiming you oppose it due to ineffectiveness. destiny is certainly not interested in the blizzard gravy train...../s/ what a joke post. He has clearly shown he has no reluctance to try and derail it to get Blizzard's attention. That is what got the EG fatcats feather's ruffled in the first place.
Chairman Destiny basically just wants to sit back and complain about the exact same stuff that incontrol and idra have been complaining about for over 2 years. The difference between the EG guys and Destiny is that the EG guys are willing to do something other than whine.
If you think whining to Blizzard is the best way to improve the scene, then go ahead. However, the idea that ONLY Blizzard can save Pro SC2 is ridiculous and unsupported by history or facts. I am personally incredibly thankful for people like Geoff that produce actual content.
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On October 26 2012 08:37 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:32 Portlandian wrote:On October 26 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:23 Portlandian wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. To put it simply, you are concerned about your income. Your primary interest in SC2 is financial. You don't even like the game and have accepted it will never be good, but want to continue making money from a bad game. Because you look at it from a financial perspective, people rocking the boat upsets you because they threaten the continued flow of money into yours (and Blizzard's) pockets. However Destiny is looking it at the perspective of the community as a whole. Why should any Starcraft fan care how much money EG and Blizzard are making? Our interest in the game is entertainment. If the game is not entertaining to play or watch why should anyone care if it dies, other than people who have financial interest in it (you, iNcontrol, Blizzard, etc). An average TL poster is not riding the Blizzard gravy train with you. In fact, the community is funding it! Threatening Blizzard's profits by publicly protesting their greedy and careless attitude towards SC2, and encouraging people to not buy HOTS if it isn't improved, is the only way to get them to care. They only understand money. In fact, the loud public complaints got Blizzard to take immediate action and release some mockups they probably frantically drew up when they realized they had to do something. So it is very effective. Far more effective than your "just shut up and keep spending money on Blizzard and related products" attitude, which is motivated only by your personal greed. Ironically it is the extreme effectiveness of publicly complaining and giving bad buzz to a product that has you so upset, despite the fact you keep claiming you oppose it due to ineffectiveness. destiny is certainly not interested in the blizzard gravy train...../s/ what a joke post. He has clearly shown he has no reluctance to try and derail it to get Blizzard's attention. That is what got the EG fatcats feather's ruffled in the first place. blizzard doesnt give him money, so pissing off blizzard does not harm him nor does it derail his gravy. he gets "paid" based on his PR (since he cant win anything). i find it hard to believe that this whole thing was some magnanimous gesture to get the community talking. he just wants attention, which increases his gravy. i thought he switched to LoL anyways....wtf is he doing back....
So why did you respond to my post? Nothing you said contradicts me.
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On October 26 2012 08:32 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 26 2012 08:23 Portlandian wrote:On October 26 2012 06:26 IdrA wrote:On October 26 2012 05:31 bokeevboke wrote:On October 26 2012 05:02 CiCeRoSC2 wrote:On October 26 2012 04:51 bokeevboke wrote:
My take on this:
IdrA and Incontrol like things the way they are. I assume they got decent paycheks, therefore they don't want anything to 'change'. I mean they don't wanna whole community going nuts and disbalance the scene, which might end their perfect progamer life in EG-house. I don't blame them, maybe they are a bit selfish. But any of us would do the same.
The problem is that if you look outside EG house you see pretty dim picture of sc world. Teams are disbanding, players not getting paid to go tournament and casuals leaving sc2.
I think djWheat truly believes that starcraft needs to be hardcore. His best example is American Idol (LoL) vs Breaking bad (SC2). Which is kinda fair point. But it has a flaw in it.
Those are TV shows, anybody has easy access to them, and people who are likely to like Breaking bad may randomly stumble upon it and start watching.
But how a random guy (who presumably gonna like watching starcraft) get into watching starcraft? SC2 is not broadcasted on TV, game is not easily accessible, even if he gets a chance to play it, it will be very difficult and kinda not fun.
Most of current SC community are from bw era. But they are not forever. They'll get old and have families, then just move on.
I think Destiny has fair point. We need to attract casual gamers in order sustain viewership. Its the only way to get people into watching competitive SC2. This is completely inaccurate. You could not possibly be more wrong about IdrA and Incontrol not wanting "change". If you've listened to anything that IdrA or iNcontroL have said for years, you would know that they aren't happy with Blizzard. IdrA goes on and on about how the game is trash. They are not ok with the status quo, but after over two years of complaining, they've given up on trying to get Blizzard to change the game, and would rather focus their energy on things they can do, like run tournaments, create youtube videos, and attract sponsors. They go on and on about how teams and tournaments can do more to improve Pro SC2. The American Idol v. Breaking Bad comparison was in reference to advertising. He was simply trying to show that shows with lower viewership can still be successful. You don't need to have a huge broad audience in order to be a good quality program that can sustain itself. Just because you aren't #1 doesn't mean that you can't be successful. Most of the current SC2 community did not come from the people who watched pro BW. I don't think you realize how tiny the non-korean BW scene was. Destiny isn't wrong that bringing more casual gamers into SC2 would help the scene. Absolutely nobody is arguing with that. He's just wrong that the scene will fall apart unless Blizzard goes full on Riot in its catering to them. I might be wrong on many stuff but in the end, I think Destiny did a right thing shaking up sc community. Blizzard got too lazy/passive. Mass ranting, complaining, whining definitely make them do something. Otherwise they would be content with things they are. Its simple customer relationship. When people get bitching about product stakeholders gonna get worried and company CEO starts to act. IdrA/Incontrol are like "blizzard didn't do anything for 2 years and they are not gonna do it anyway, why do you make the community go crazy". Which I think is clear indication them being afraid of things getting heated up. at 1:22:22 djWheat is screaming that stream numbers are skyrocketing which is quite a big LIE. Streams are in downfall. Pro player's viewer count and day9 viewer count has fallen down drastically. EDIT. that was my big lie, djwheat meant all games. its not fear of things getting heated up, its fear of negativity. and that sounds funny coming from me, but im negative about the quality of the game, not the state of esports or sc2 as an esport. ive said frequently that while im not happy with the game itself i very much enjoy the rest of everything. if the community as a whole is led to believe that sc2 is failing and start spamming reddit and twitter and tl with threads about how we're doomed and sponsors see that, you think theyre going to want to invest in the community? it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. blizzards always been shit. it doesnt matter what they do. sc2 is and will be the headline rts, tournaments have embraced it, it has a strong community behind it. if we keep doing what we've been doing (which isnt complacency, things have constantly been improving in every way) things will keep being good. sometimes viewership will be up, sometimes it will be down. it does not matter. but getting everyone all pissed off and depressed is probably the worst thing that can happen. To put it simply, you are concerned about your income. Your primary interest in SC2 is financial. You don't even like the game and have accepted it will never be good, but want to continue making money from a bad game. Because you look at it from a financial perspective, people rocking the boat upsets you because they threaten the continued flow of money into yours (and Blizzard's) pockets. However Destiny is looking it at the perspective of the community as a whole. Why should any Starcraft fan care how much money EG and Blizzard are making? Our interest in the game is entertainment. If the game is not entertaining to play or watch why should anyone care if it dies, other than people who have financial interest in it (you, iNcontrol, Blizzard, etc). An average TL poster is not riding the Blizzard gravy train with you. In fact, the community is funding it! Threatening Blizzard's profits by publicly protesting their greedy and careless attitude towards SC2, and encouraging people to not buy HOTS if it isn't improved, is the only way to get them to care. They only understand money. In fact, the loud public complaints got Blizzard to take immediate action and release some mockups they probably frantically drew up when they realized they had to do something. So it is very effective. Far more effective than your "just shut up and keep spending money on Blizzard and related products" attitude, which is motivated only by your personal greed. Ironically it is the extreme effectiveness of publicly complaining and giving bad buzz to a product that has you so upset, despite the fact you keep claiming you oppose it due to ineffectiveness. destiny is certainly not interested in the blizzard gravy train...../s/ what a joke post. He has clearly shown he has no reluctance to try and derail it to get Blizzard's attention. That is what got the EG fatcats feather's ruffled in the first place.
rofl
you think blizzard gives a shit about destiny or the root idiots?
theyre going to keep doing what theyve been doing. theyre going to gradually make small irrelevant improvements to the ui, theyre gonna keep the game as newb friendly as they think they can get away with, and overall theyre not really going to know what theyre doing. we, as a whole, have been telling them the game and the ui sucks literally since the beginning. it does not matter.
what does matter is making the game and the community look like its already failed. it hasnt. but when you get shit stirrers have everyone act like everythings fucked it doesnt matter what the reality is. no one wants to hop on board with that.
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EPT
