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Either way, guys, I think we really oughta calm down about this whole thing. It's pretty evident that everyone being so worked up has taken a toll on some of our favourite people in the scene, and I don't think any of us want them to be any closer to burning out than they already are.
Just chill out and do what you think is right! No need to yell at each other or call people names :3
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On October 26 2012 01:57 CwnAnnwn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:43 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On October 26 2012 01:17 CwnAnnwn wrote:
Fact is, before destiny was on the discussion was calm and reasoned with good points and counter points. Destiny comes on and it ends in a scream-fest. Destiny leaves and it slowly calms down and ends up as another calm reasoned discussion of the points where some agreed and others didn't.
Of course it was, before Destiny came on everyone was just laughing at Destiny's ideas. Why wouldn't it have been calm? The problem was not letting Destiny on, but given how Incontrol had just bashed Destiny, it should've been expected he was pissed off and that some serious moderation of the discussion was needed. In the end Destiny, Incontrol and Wheat all made fools of themselves. This easily happens when a discussion gets heated so whatever. As is, the discussion didn't really contribute much to anything though, which is unfortunate. To be honest I'm just so sick of people saying sc2 is dead or dying. It makes me want to rip my hair out in frustration. Seriously if people think is starcraft is so bad why dont they go try the beta for command and conquer? that is a free to play casual focused RTS that will probably have millions of people playing it (atleast initially). If you really feel sc2 is dead or dying with a slim to no chance of surving to LOTV just leave the game. I know sc2 will be fine and nothing is wrong but seriously all these doomdayers are pissing me off. The only thing that has died is the sanity of the sc2 community.
Maybe they want a competetive RTS with a high skill cap? Maybe they like the game and its potential, but not the way its heading?
I think Destiny makes a lot of valid points, although I also think he's too much of a doomsday prophet. I'm sure SC2 will survive, but in this day and age, in order for SC2 to remain one of the top esports titles Blizzard needs to be in on it. This wasn't necessarily true at the time of BW because the level of competition was much lower. Right now, companies/games that aren't willing to compete will most likely be left behind. Blizzard not giving a crap is ok but only if we're happy with SC2 being a 2nd tier esports title with regards to streaming numbers, sponsorships, prize money, ability to attract the best players etc.
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Are people still arguing who's fault this is? lmao. Do you people not have hobbies? Listen it's both incontrols and Destinys fault, it's not just one person. Incontrol for taunting destiny as if he wasn't going to watch the popular talk show. And then destiny for not leaving his ego at the door so he can articulate his thoughts better, which could have prevented the shit storm.
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On October 26 2012 02:27 matiK23 wrote:
Are people still arguing who's fault this is? lmao. Do you people not have hobbies? Listen it's both incontrols and Destinys fault, it's not just one person. Incontrol for taunting destiny as if he wasn't going to watch the popular talk show. And then destiny for not leaving his ego at the door so he can articulate his thoughts better, which could have prevented the shit storm.
And still you're here, arguing whose fault it is.
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This is probably the show which has the most difficult to find latest episodes ever. Like when I go to to the show main page http://www.onemoregame.tv/index.php/shows/in-the-game.html it shows the latest episode as #34 which was apparently made in February. And the OP of this thread is even worse. So to be honest, I don't really know where to watch this show, or even if any more episodes were made after February. Perhaps that could be improved?
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On October 26 2012 02:35 Kilby wrote:This is probably the show which has the most difficult to find latest episodes ever. Like when I go to to the show main page http://www.onemoregame.tv/index.php/shows/in-the-game.html it shows the latest episode as #34 which was apparently made in February. And the OP of this thread is even worse. So to be honest, I don't really know where to watch this show, or even if any more episodes were made after February. Perhaps that could be improved?
Yeah, that kind of sucks. You need to go to One More Game at Twitch for the latest stuff.
http://sv.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/336653494
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On October 26 2012 01:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 00:46 CikaZombi wrote:On October 25 2012 22:43 5ukkub wrote:On October 25 2012 11:59 IdrA wrote:
the fact that theres actually people saying im too light on blizzard or that im happy/complacent with what theyre doing is the most damning proof ive ever seen that people will say anything to be obstinate assholes. Nobody said you are too light on Blizzard, nobody said you're happy/complacent with them. You said, and IncontroL agreed, that pressuring Blizzard is a nonsense, because they didn't do anything noticable to fix the game client and make it more casual-friendly, so can't ecpect them to suddenly change their approach. Well, i for one disagree, because YOU, the players, commentators, hosts aka PILLARS OF THE COMMUNITY never should stop voicing our concerns and thoughts about the game!Because you are being heared, not us! So when you stopped voicing those concerns, what the community is supposed to do? You can't ignore us! We all see what's going on with SC2 client and how other game's viewer counts rise, but our don't! And then came Destinny. He wrote what he wrote and it was the only thing that community could relate to!So do you want Destiny to be the voice of the community, or you, IdrA, IncontroL, djWheat? Idra and Incontrol never stopped voicing. Never. Incontrol does with with more humor, often ridiculing Blizzard's decisions. Idra is definantly more vocal about it and more explicit, which resulted in even Blizzard trolling him with the Hots beta key if anyone sill remembers. And they will always be like that if Blizzard screws up. The topics Destiny brought weren't new, and they were discussed many times before by many different influential persons in the community, including Idra and Incontrol. The main difference is the attitude. While they disagree, with the way they are supposed to approach to Blizzard and what to expect of them, and they voice in perfectly - imo - especially during the times everyone is acting irrational and overreacting. Which is the freaking job of the people that had been here the longest. The problem here is, and what hurts my soul, is that they couldn't have an argumented discussion with Destiny at no point of this show. Destiny was interrupting all the time and acting very very immature and this seemed like an argument with your parents when you are like 16 or 17 at most. Which is probably why so many people on reddit agree and praise him, because they are just those kinds of children. Destiny is a smart and passionate individual, but he couldn't calm down and, was jumping from topic to topic and just blaming Blizzard for everything that did, and what he assumed they won't do. Even when the ITG people told him that some of the issues he brought up WILL be fixed in the expansion, he ignored that and immediately jumped to the next issue. He was like a kid that wanted a Playstation for a birthday, and got a bike. Then his parents apologized, and got him a Playstation for his next birthday, but he was like: "ITS TOO LATE NOW, I STILL HATE YOU". He is never going to be happy, if Blizzard implemented the things he wanted TOMORROW, he would still just say: "Pfft, fucking finally!" You can't turn back time. Yes, it sucked these 2 years that they didn't do the stuff everyone wanted and expected them to do BUT they are either fixing it as we speak or they are aware of it and not doing it for various reasons we don't know. It might be their team is too small, it might be they don't get enough funds for additional programmers, it might be they want to save alot of content and release it as a selling point for an expansion, or they just don't deem them necessary. We. Don't. Know. But they DO care, and everyone knows this. This has been said, and the reasons were speculated on this show by Inc Idra and DjWheat, but to no avail. Knowing all this, it is NOT in our best interest to blame mommy and daddy and/or fight among ourselves, but to freaking unite and do what we can to better our game, our community and raise awareness for Blizzard. That's. It. Now the part that pisses me off is this: Destiny acted like a freaking teenager. When his argument met a brick wall, he changed the topic. Then when Idra had enough and just said what has been on everyone's mind the entire time, which was the absolute most positive thing anyone can say about the game they love to someone that is clearly too fed up with Blizzard and wont change his attitude, and the high five proceeded to happen (which I view not as a douchy move, but as a comradery "I'm fucking proud of what you said" moment, Destiny then shat on the players, and left as a freaking coward. Then Wheat lost it, because that's not how arguments with grownups are supposed to go. Nowhere in the freaking world. Nowhere. He lost it, because of the person that has been invited to his damn show, showed no capacity and respect to argue, then left like a child, when he deemed himself fed up enough. Wheat didn't even tell him to fuck off, he was just so mad that he would pussy out like that that he HAD to say something. What he said wasn't coherent, wasn't meant to hurt or belittle anyone, it was just pure rage, disbelief, and dissapointment. And people still got on Destiny's side. People still thought of him as a freaking martyr. I mean... Really? I GET maybe pitting against Geoff and Greg, because they have many haters but DjfreakingWheat? The guy who lives and breathes for this shit? My faith in humanity is restored. Thank you. Everyone who's raging on ITG, but not with Destiny is blatantly just ignoring asshat things Destiny did the entire interview. That final 'hurrah' as he left was what pushed Wheat into a rage, but conveniently is left out of every argument attacking ITG.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
Laying things out for Blizzard in a million and one ways doesn't change the fact they are very inept at making obvious changes. Brood War had lots of major problems, just look at the giant void that ICCup had to fill.
Blizzard makes excuses instead of changes. In the case of LAN, its because of their agenda.
When it comes to custom games, things are more complicated. From Blizzard's perspective, DotA wasn't a wholly successful reinforcement of their custom game strategy, which was mostly to improve WC3 custom game system over BWs. People like Destiny trying to spout that people are migrating from a Blizzard game over to spinoffs of a mod that was originally created with their own editor are not helping the argument that Blizzard needs to improve the custom game end of SC2.
To look at another example of 'outrage' towards Blizzard when they had every reason to listen, but didn't, look no further than the backlash over art design in Diablo 3. The corporate minds at Activision wanted to go a route that had been proven as a way to please fans and lower costs. Highly stylized(colorful) and low polygon models with the blood effects to appease the more hardcore fans of the Diablo franchise. Well the fans weren't that simple minded, but instead of being rational about their criticism, they rampaged across the internet with a muddled argument. This hilariously brought every troll and the ire of WoW fans to the defense of Blizzard's 'artistic integrity'.
Were they right about the style being out of place within the Diablo universe? Probably. Did the Blizzard developers know about this before it was even brought up? Probably. And nothing was changed.
Lets look at another example, where the rampaging lead to some changes. The post-release of D3. The downside was a crippling of population within the community. Many people raged and threatened to leave and the obvious bargaining chip they had was that Blizzard wouldn't have as many auction sales. Most of the changes they ended up making were in fact geared towards more auction sales, not the overall experience.
The point I'm making is that if we institute micro-transaction cosmetic items we won't see Blizzard all of a sudden investing more into the overall experience of SC2. We would be lucky if they didn't stop caring about the competitive scene altogether if that happened. The only argument to the contrary is the examples of Riot and Valve, but I think an example of what Blizzard itself does in that situation has much more relevance.
How corporations think matters. Blizzard has become less and less immune to corporatism with publishers becoming more and more involved with developers. Riot and Valve are in a greatly different situation as far as development goes. I would go so far as to say half of Valve's incentive to make DotA 2 a better game is to advertise their digital publishing platform. Riot on the other hand sells heroes, advocating a Pay to Win model, which this community is staunchly against.
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On October 26 2012 02:35 Kilby wrote:This is probably the show which has the most difficult to find latest episodes ever. Like when I go to to the show main page http://www.onemoregame.tv/index.php/shows/in-the-game.html it shows the latest episode as #34 which was apparently made in February. And the OP of this thread is even worse. So to be honest, I don't really know where to watch this show, or even if any more episodes were made after February. Perhaps that could be improved?
The vods are on onemoregame's twitch account, and the MP3's are (unfortunately) something you have to pick up from other people in the thread.
Usually it's very easy to find them after a show has been recorded (only one or two pages usually occur between shows), but this show caused such a shitstorm, that it's nigh impossible to find the links easily.
Here's the MP3 if you want it.
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On October 26 2012 02:40 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:35 Kilby wrote:This is probably the show which has the most difficult to find latest episodes ever. Like when I go to to the show main page http://www.onemoregame.tv/index.php/shows/in-the-game.html it shows the latest episode as #34 which was apparently made in February. And the OP of this thread is even worse. So to be honest, I don't really know where to watch this show, or even if any more episodes were made after February. Perhaps that could be improved? The vods are on onemoregame's twitch account, and the MP3's are (unfortunately) something you have to pick up from other people in the thread. Usually it's very easy to find them after a show has been recorded (only one or two pages usually occur between shows), but this show caused such a shitstorm, that it's nigh impossible to find the links easily. Here's the MP3 if you want it.
Thanks Sonic Death Monkey and goiflin. Will definitely check the show out. I'm just wondering why DJWheat (or whoever is running the show) does not bother to update the OP so we could actually find the show when they clearly bother to make a several hour talk show regularly. There's at least one thing they could learn from SOTG.
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On October 26 2012 00:46 CikaZombi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 22:43 5ukkub wrote:On October 25 2012 11:59 IdrA wrote:
the fact that theres actually people saying im too light on blizzard or that im happy/complacent with what theyre doing is the most damning proof ive ever seen that people will say anything to be obstinate assholes. Nobody said you are too light on Blizzard, nobody said you're happy/complacent with them. You said, and IncontroL agreed, that pressuring Blizzard is a nonsense, because they didn't do anything noticable to fix the game client and make it more casual-friendly, so can't ecpect them to suddenly change their approach. Well, i for one disagree, because YOU, the players, commentators, hosts aka PILLARS OF THE COMMUNITY never should stop voicing our concerns and thoughts about the game!Because you are being heared, not us! So when you stopped voicing those concerns, what the community is supposed to do? You can't ignore us! We all see what's going on with SC2 client and how other game's viewer counts rise, but our don't! And then came Destinny. He wrote what he wrote and it was the only thing that community could relate to!So do you want Destiny to be the voice of the community, or you, IdrA, IncontroL, djWheat? Idra and Incontrol never stopped voicing. Never. Incontrol does with with more humor, often ridiculing Blizzard's decisions. Idra is definantly more vocal about it and more explicit, which resulted in even Blizzard trolling him with the Hots beta key if anyone sill remembers. And they will always be like that if Blizzard screws up. The topics Destiny brought weren't new, and they were discussed many times before by many different influential persons in the community, including Idra and Incontrol. The main difference is the attitude. While they disagree, with the way they are supposed to approach to Blizzard and what to expect of them, and they voice in perfectly - imo - especially during the times everyone is acting irrational and overreacting. Which is the freaking job of the people that had been here the longest. The problem here is, and what hurts my soul, is that they couldn't have an argumented discussion with Destiny at no point of this show. Destiny was interrupting all the time and acting very very immature and this seemed like an argument with your parents when you are like 16 or 17 at most. Which is probably why so many people on reddit agree and praise him, because they are just those kinds of children. Destiny is a smart and passionate individual, but he couldn't calm down and, was jumping from topic to topic and just blaming Blizzard for everything that did, and what he assumed they won't do. Even when the ITG people told him that some of the issues he brought up WILL be fixed in the expansion, he ignored that and immediately jumped to the next issue. He was like a kid that wanted a Playstation for a birthday, and got a bike. Then his parents apologized, and got him a Playstation for his next birthday, but he was like: "ITS TOO LATE NOW, I STILL HATE YOU". He is never going to be happy, if Blizzard implemented the things he wanted TOMORROW, he would still just say: "Pfft, fucking finally!" You can't turn back time. Yes, it sucked these 2 years that they didn't do the stuff everyone wanted and expected them to do BUT they are either fixing it as we speak or they are aware of it and not doing it for various reasons we don't know. It might be their team is too small, it might be they don't get enough funds for additional programmers, it might be they want to save alot of content and release it as a selling point for an expansion, or they just don't deem them necessary. We. Don't. Know. But they DO care, and everyone knows this. This has been said, and the reasons were speculated on this show by Inc Idra and DjWheat, but to no avail. Knowing all this, it is NOT in our best interest to blame mommy and daddy and/or fight among ourselves, but to freaking unite and do what we can to better our game, our community and raise awareness for Blizzard. That's. It. Now the part that pisses me off is this: Destiny acted like a freaking teenager. When his argument met a brick wall, he changed the topic. Then when Idra had enough and just said what has been on everyone's mind the entire time, which was the absolute most positive thing anyone can say about the game they love to someone that is clearly too fed up with Blizzard and wont change his attitude, and the high five proceeded to happen (which I view not as a douchy move, but as a comradery "I'm fucking proud of what you said" moment, Destiny then shat on the players, and left as a freaking coward. Then Wheat lost it, because that's not how arguments with grownups are supposed to go. Nowhere in the freaking world. Nowhere. He lost it, because of the person that has been invited to his damn show, showed no capacity and respect to argue, then left like a child, when he deemed himself fed up enough. Wheat didn't even tell him to fuck off, he was just so mad that he would pussy out like that that he HAD to say something. What he said wasn't coherent, wasn't meant to hurt or belittle anyone, it was just pure rage, disbelief, and dissapointment. And people still got on Destiny's side. People still thought of him as a freaking martyr. I mean... Really? I GET maybe pitting against Geoff and Greg, because they have many haters but DjfreakingWheat? The guy who lives and breathes for this shit?
But let's assume we have a debate. Just before the debate begins, I make a huge personal attack on you, and state that what you just writtien, is the most idiotic thing ever.
Now the debate begins. Do you honestly expect your self to stay completely calm?
I think Destiny could could have behaved better, but the guy who who began the shitstorm is IMO the primary guy to blame for how the debate had turned out. I am convinced the debate had turned out much more civil, had Incontrol not made that shitstorm on Destiny before the debate.
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Only show I've missed in a while , only because Im on call out this week , I'm gutted I missed it ! Found the episode though and watched the best bits !
DJWheat well played ! Idra well played ! Incontrol well played ! (apart from the hand slap with idra , that was a lil lame ,
Not idra fault , he was hardly gonna not slap hands after I control walked all that way lol)
Painuser well played !
Loved the show ! I'll never let myself miss another !! Keep up the amazing work  !!!!!!
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"Huge personal attack" .....
Incontrol's 5 minute rant about destiny is one of the most tame rants I've ever heard. Him comparing artosis to some tree frog or w/e was more insulting than this and Artosis just laughed about it.
Destiny is the last person on the face of the planet that has any ground to stand on when it comes throwing a temper tantrum after being insulted.
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On October 26 2012 02:38 Eko200 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:On October 26 2012 00:46 CikaZombi wrote:On October 25 2012 22:43 5ukkub wrote:On October 25 2012 11:59 IdrA wrote:
the fact that theres actually people saying im too light on blizzard or that im happy/complacent with what theyre doing is the most damning proof ive ever seen that people will say anything to be obstinate assholes. Nobody said you are too light on Blizzard, nobody said you're happy/complacent with them. You said, and IncontroL agreed, that pressuring Blizzard is a nonsense, because they didn't do anything noticable to fix the game client and make it more casual-friendly, so can't ecpect them to suddenly change their approach. Well, i for one disagree, because YOU, the players, commentators, hosts aka PILLARS OF THE COMMUNITY never should stop voicing our concerns and thoughts about the game!Because you are being heared, not us! So when you stopped voicing those concerns, what the community is supposed to do? You can't ignore us! We all see what's going on with SC2 client and how other game's viewer counts rise, but our don't! And then came Destinny. He wrote what he wrote and it was the only thing that community could relate to!So do you want Destiny to be the voice of the community, or you, IdrA, IncontroL, djWheat? Idra and Incontrol never stopped voicing. Never. Incontrol does with with more humor, often ridiculing Blizzard's decisions. Idra is definantly more vocal about it and more explicit, which resulted in even Blizzard trolling him with the Hots beta key if anyone sill remembers. And they will always be like that if Blizzard screws up. The topics Destiny brought weren't new, and they were discussed many times before by many different influential persons in the community, including Idra and Incontrol. The main difference is the attitude. While they disagree, with the way they are supposed to approach to Blizzard and what to expect of them, and they voice in perfectly - imo - especially during the times everyone is acting irrational and overreacting. Which is the freaking job of the people that had been here the longest. The problem here is, and what hurts my soul, is that they couldn't have an argumented discussion with Destiny at no point of this show. Destiny was interrupting all the time and acting very very immature and this seemed like an argument with your parents when you are like 16 or 17 at most. Which is probably why so many people on reddit agree and praise him, because they are just those kinds of children. Destiny is a smart and passionate individual, but he couldn't calm down and, was jumping from topic to topic and just blaming Blizzard for everything that did, and what he assumed they won't do. Even when the ITG people told him that some of the issues he brought up WILL be fixed in the expansion, he ignored that and immediately jumped to the next issue. He was like a kid that wanted a Playstation for a birthday, and got a bike. Then his parents apologized, and got him a Playstation for his next birthday, but he was like: "ITS TOO LATE NOW, I STILL HATE YOU". He is never going to be happy, if Blizzard implemented the things he wanted TOMORROW, he would still just say: "Pfft, fucking finally!" You can't turn back time. Yes, it sucked these 2 years that they didn't do the stuff everyone wanted and expected them to do BUT they are either fixing it as we speak or they are aware of it and not doing it for various reasons we don't know. It might be their team is too small, it might be they don't get enough funds for additional programmers, it might be they want to save alot of content and release it as a selling point for an expansion, or they just don't deem them necessary. We. Don't. Know. But they DO care, and everyone knows this. This has been said, and the reasons were speculated on this show by Inc Idra and DjWheat, but to no avail. Knowing all this, it is NOT in our best interest to blame mommy and daddy and/or fight among ourselves, but to freaking unite and do what we can to better our game, our community and raise awareness for Blizzard. That's. It. Now the part that pisses me off is this: Destiny acted like a freaking teenager. When his argument met a brick wall, he changed the topic. Then when Idra had enough and just said what has been on everyone's mind the entire time, which was the absolute most positive thing anyone can say about the game they love to someone that is clearly too fed up with Blizzard and wont change his attitude, and the high five proceeded to happen (which I view not as a douchy move, but as a comradery "I'm fucking proud of what you said" moment, Destiny then shat on the players, and left as a freaking coward. Then Wheat lost it, because that's not how arguments with grownups are supposed to go. Nowhere in the freaking world. Nowhere. He lost it, because of the person that has been invited to his damn show, showed no capacity and respect to argue, then left like a child, when he deemed himself fed up enough. Wheat didn't even tell him to fuck off, he was just so mad that he would pussy out like that that he HAD to say something. What he said wasn't coherent, wasn't meant to hurt or belittle anyone, it was just pure rage, disbelief, and dissapointment. And people still got on Destiny's side. People still thought of him as a freaking martyr. I mean... Really? I GET maybe pitting against Geoff and Greg, because they have many haters but DjfreakingWheat? The guy who lives and breathes for this shit? My faith in humanity is restored. Thank you. Everyone who's raging on ITG, but not with Destiny is blatantly just ignoring asshat things Destiny did the entire interview. That final 'hurrah' as he left was what pushed Wheat into a rage, but conveniently is left out of every argument attacking ITG. Agreed wholeheartedly. Laying things out for Blizzard in a million and one ways doesn't change the fact they are very inept at making obvious changes. Brood War had lots of major problems, just look at the giant void that ICCup had to fill. Blizzard makes excuses instead of changes. In the case of LAN, its because of their agenda. When it comes to custom games, things are more complicated. From Blizzard's perspective, DotA wasn't a wholly successful reinforcement of their custom game strategy, which was mostly to improve WC3 custom game system over BWs. People like Destiny trying to spout that people are migrating from a Blizzard game over to spinoffs of a mod that was originally created with their own editor are not helping the argument that Blizzard needs to improve the custom game end of SC2. To look at another example of 'outrage' towards Blizzard when they had every reason to listen, but didn't, look no further than the backlash over art design in Diablo 3. The corporate minds at Activision wanted to go a route that had been proven as a way to please fans and lower costs. Highly stylized(colorful) and low polygon models with the blood effects to appease the more hardcore fans of the Diablo franchise. Well the fans weren't that simple minded, but instead of being rational about their criticism, they rampaged across the internet with a muddled argument. This hilariously brought every troll and the ire of WoW fans to the defense of Blizzard's 'artistic integrity'. Were they right about the style being out of place within the Diablo universe? Probably. Did the Blizzard developers know about this before it was even brought up? Probably. And nothing was changed. Lets look at another example, where the rampaging lead to some changes. The post-release of D3. The downside was a crippling of population within the community. Many people raged and threatened to leave and the obvious bargaining chip they had was that Blizzard wouldn't have as many auction sales. Most of the changes they ended up making were in fact geared towards more auction sales, not the overall experience. The point I'm making is that if we institute micro-transaction cosmetic items we won't see Blizzard all of a sudden investing more into the overall experience of SC2. We would be lucky if they didn't stop caring about the competitive scene altogether if that happened. The only argument to the contrary is the examples of Riot and Valve, but I think an example of what Blizzard itself does in that situation has much more relevance. How corporations think matters. Blizzard has become less and less immune to corporatism with publishers becoming more and more involved with developers. Riot and Valve are in a greatly different situation as far as development goes. I would go so far as to say half of Valve's incentive to make DotA 2 a better game is to advertise their digital publishing platform. Riot on the other hand sells heroes, advocating a Pay to Win model, which this community is staunchly against.
I'm sorry this is a little off topic, but I really feel the need to correct this as so much disinformation about LoL is already present on TL.
Do you not find it funny how it's only people like you who do not play the game who make comments like this? A pay to win model? Are seriously so out of the loop to know all champions in that game are FREE. The only items in that game that are only obtainable through money are purely COSMETIC.
Blows my mind how an argument about something entirely different needs to have disinformation and slander in it.
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So you can't buy hero's in LoL? You said you "feel the need to correct the misinformation" but I don't see you correcting anything. Enlighten us please. I personally don't play the game so I wouldn't know.
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On October 26 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:38 Eko200 wrote:On October 26 2012 01:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:On October 26 2012 00:46 CikaZombi wrote:On October 25 2012 22:43 5ukkub wrote:On October 25 2012 11:59 IdrA wrote:
the fact that theres actually people saying im too light on blizzard or that im happy/complacent with what theyre doing is the most damning proof ive ever seen that people will say anything to be obstinate assholes. Nobody said you are too light on Blizzard, nobody said you're happy/complacent with them. You said, and IncontroL agreed, that pressuring Blizzard is a nonsense, because they didn't do anything noticable to fix the game client and make it more casual-friendly, so can't ecpect them to suddenly change their approach. Well, i for one disagree, because YOU, the players, commentators, hosts aka PILLARS OF THE COMMUNITY never should stop voicing our concerns and thoughts about the game!Because you are being heared, not us! So when you stopped voicing those concerns, what the community is supposed to do? You can't ignore us! We all see what's going on with SC2 client and how other game's viewer counts rise, but our don't! And then came Destinny. He wrote what he wrote and it was the only thing that community could relate to!So do you want Destiny to be the voice of the community, or you, IdrA, IncontroL, djWheat? Idra and Incontrol never stopped voicing. Never. Incontrol does with with more humor, often ridiculing Blizzard's decisions. Idra is definantly more vocal about it and more explicit, which resulted in even Blizzard trolling him with the Hots beta key if anyone sill remembers. And they will always be like that if Blizzard screws up. The topics Destiny brought weren't new, and they were discussed many times before by many different influential persons in the community, including Idra and Incontrol. The main difference is the attitude. While they disagree, with the way they are supposed to approach to Blizzard and what to expect of them, and they voice in perfectly - imo - especially during the times everyone is acting irrational and overreacting. Which is the freaking job of the people that had been here the longest. The problem here is, and what hurts my soul, is that they couldn't have an argumented discussion with Destiny at no point of this show. Destiny was interrupting all the time and acting very very immature and this seemed like an argument with your parents when you are like 16 or 17 at most. Which is probably why so many people on reddit agree and praise him, because they are just those kinds of children. Destiny is a smart and passionate individual, but he couldn't calm down and, was jumping from topic to topic and just blaming Blizzard for everything that did, and what he assumed they won't do. Even when the ITG people told him that some of the issues he brought up WILL be fixed in the expansion, he ignored that and immediately jumped to the next issue. He was like a kid that wanted a Playstation for a birthday, and got a bike. Then his parents apologized, and got him a Playstation for his next birthday, but he was like: "ITS TOO LATE NOW, I STILL HATE YOU". He is never going to be happy, if Blizzard implemented the things he wanted TOMORROW, he would still just say: "Pfft, fucking finally!" You can't turn back time. Yes, it sucked these 2 years that they didn't do the stuff everyone wanted and expected them to do BUT they are either fixing it as we speak or they are aware of it and not doing it for various reasons we don't know. It might be their team is too small, it might be they don't get enough funds for additional programmers, it might be they want to save alot of content and release it as a selling point for an expansion, or they just don't deem them necessary. We. Don't. Know. But they DO care, and everyone knows this. This has been said, and the reasons were speculated on this show by Inc Idra and DjWheat, but to no avail. Knowing all this, it is NOT in our best interest to blame mommy and daddy and/or fight among ourselves, but to freaking unite and do what we can to better our game, our community and raise awareness for Blizzard. That's. It. Now the part that pisses me off is this: Destiny acted like a freaking teenager. When his argument met a brick wall, he changed the topic. Then when Idra had enough and just said what has been on everyone's mind the entire time, which was the absolute most positive thing anyone can say about the game they love to someone that is clearly too fed up with Blizzard and wont change his attitude, and the high five proceeded to happen (which I view not as a douchy move, but as a comradery "I'm fucking proud of what you said" moment, Destiny then shat on the players, and left as a freaking coward. Then Wheat lost it, because that's not how arguments with grownups are supposed to go. Nowhere in the freaking world. Nowhere. He lost it, because of the person that has been invited to his damn show, showed no capacity and respect to argue, then left like a child, when he deemed himself fed up enough. Wheat didn't even tell him to fuck off, he was just so mad that he would pussy out like that that he HAD to say something. What he said wasn't coherent, wasn't meant to hurt or belittle anyone, it was just pure rage, disbelief, and dissapointment. And people still got on Destiny's side. People still thought of him as a freaking martyr. I mean... Really? I GET maybe pitting against Geoff and Greg, because they have many haters but DjfreakingWheat? The guy who lives and breathes for this shit? My faith in humanity is restored. Thank you. Everyone who's raging on ITG, but not with Destiny is blatantly just ignoring asshat things Destiny did the entire interview. That final 'hurrah' as he left was what pushed Wheat into a rage, but conveniently is left out of every argument attacking ITG. Agreed wholeheartedly. Laying things out for Blizzard in a million and one ways doesn't change the fact they are very inept at making obvious changes. Brood War had lots of major problems, just look at the giant void that ICCup had to fill. Blizzard makes excuses instead of changes. In the case of LAN, its because of their agenda. When it comes to custom games, things are more complicated. From Blizzard's perspective, DotA wasn't a wholly successful reinforcement of their custom game strategy, which was mostly to improve WC3 custom game system over BWs. People like Destiny trying to spout that people are migrating from a Blizzard game over to spinoffs of a mod that was originally created with their own editor are not helping the argument that Blizzard needs to improve the custom game end of SC2. To look at another example of 'outrage' towards Blizzard when they had every reason to listen, but didn't, look no further than the backlash over art design in Diablo 3. The corporate minds at Activision wanted to go a route that had been proven as a way to please fans and lower costs. Highly stylized(colorful) and low polygon models with the blood effects to appease the more hardcore fans of the Diablo franchise. Well the fans weren't that simple minded, but instead of being rational about their criticism, they rampaged across the internet with a muddled argument. This hilariously brought every troll and the ire of WoW fans to the defense of Blizzard's 'artistic integrity'. Were they right about the style being out of place within the Diablo universe? Probably. Did the Blizzard developers know about this before it was even brought up? Probably. And nothing was changed. Lets look at another example, where the rampaging lead to some changes. The post-release of D3. The downside was a crippling of population within the community. Many people raged and threatened to leave and the obvious bargaining chip they had was that Blizzard wouldn't have as many auction sales. Most of the changes they ended up making were in fact geared towards more auction sales, not the overall experience. The point I'm making is that if we institute micro-transaction cosmetic items we won't see Blizzard all of a sudden investing more into the overall experience of SC2. We would be lucky if they didn't stop caring about the competitive scene altogether if that happened. The only argument to the contrary is the examples of Riot and Valve, but I think an example of what Blizzard itself does in that situation has much more relevance. How corporations think matters. Blizzard has become less and less immune to corporatism with publishers becoming more and more involved with developers. Riot and Valve are in a greatly different situation as far as development goes. I would go so far as to say half of Valve's incentive to make DotA 2 a better game is to advertise their digital publishing platform. Riot on the other hand sells heroes, advocating a Pay to Win model, which this community is staunchly against. I'm sorry this is a little off topic, but I really feel the need to correct this as so much disinformation about LoL is already presnt on TL. Do you not find it funny how it's only people like you who do not play the game who make comments like this?
Name's "Pink" in the client if you want to add me and see how full of crap you really are. Played League since beta.
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On October 26 2012 03:04 Eko200 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:On October 26 2012 02:38 Eko200 wrote:On October 26 2012 01:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:On October 26 2012 00:46 CikaZombi wrote:On October 25 2012 22:43 5ukkub wrote:On October 25 2012 11:59 IdrA wrote:
the fact that theres actually people saying im too light on blizzard or that im happy/complacent with what theyre doing is the most damning proof ive ever seen that people will say anything to be obstinate assholes. Nobody said you are too light on Blizzard, nobody said you're happy/complacent with them. You said, and IncontroL agreed, that pressuring Blizzard is a nonsense, because they didn't do anything noticable to fix the game client and make it more casual-friendly, so can't ecpect them to suddenly change their approach. Well, i for one disagree, because YOU, the players, commentators, hosts aka PILLARS OF THE COMMUNITY never should stop voicing our concerns and thoughts about the game!Because you are being heared, not us! So when you stopped voicing those concerns, what the community is supposed to do? You can't ignore us! We all see what's going on with SC2 client and how other game's viewer counts rise, but our don't! And then came Destinny. He wrote what he wrote and it was the only thing that community could relate to!So do you want Destiny to be the voice of the community, or you, IdrA, IncontroL, djWheat? Idra and Incontrol never stopped voicing. Never. Incontrol does with with more humor, often ridiculing Blizzard's decisions. Idra is definantly more vocal about it and more explicit, which resulted in even Blizzard trolling him with the Hots beta key if anyone sill remembers. And they will always be like that if Blizzard screws up. The topics Destiny brought weren't new, and they were discussed many times before by many different influential persons in the community, including Idra and Incontrol. The main difference is the attitude. While they disagree, with the way they are supposed to approach to Blizzard and what to expect of them, and they voice in perfectly - imo - especially during the times everyone is acting irrational and overreacting. Which is the freaking job of the people that had been here the longest. The problem here is, and what hurts my soul, is that they couldn't have an argumented discussion with Destiny at no point of this show. Destiny was interrupting all the time and acting very very immature and this seemed like an argument with your parents when you are like 16 or 17 at most. Which is probably why so many people on reddit agree and praise him, because they are just those kinds of children. Destiny is a smart and passionate individual, but he couldn't calm down and, was jumping from topic to topic and just blaming Blizzard for everything that did, and what he assumed they won't do. Even when the ITG people told him that some of the issues he brought up WILL be fixed in the expansion, he ignored that and immediately jumped to the next issue. He was like a kid that wanted a Playstation for a birthday, and got a bike. Then his parents apologized, and got him a Playstation for his next birthday, but he was like: "ITS TOO LATE NOW, I STILL HATE YOU". He is never going to be happy, if Blizzard implemented the things he wanted TOMORROW, he would still just say: "Pfft, fucking finally!" You can't turn back time. Yes, it sucked these 2 years that they didn't do the stuff everyone wanted and expected them to do BUT they are either fixing it as we speak or they are aware of it and not doing it for various reasons we don't know. It might be their team is too small, it might be they don't get enough funds for additional programmers, it might be they want to save alot of content and release it as a selling point for an expansion, or they just don't deem them necessary. We. Don't. Know. But they DO care, and everyone knows this. This has been said, and the reasons were speculated on this show by Inc Idra and DjWheat, but to no avail. Knowing all this, it is NOT in our best interest to blame mommy and daddy and/or fight among ourselves, but to freaking unite and do what we can to better our game, our community and raise awareness for Blizzard. That's. It. Now the part that pisses me off is this: Destiny acted like a freaking teenager. When his argument met a brick wall, he changed the topic. Then when Idra had enough and just said what has been on everyone's mind the entire time, which was the absolute most positive thing anyone can say about the game they love to someone that is clearly too fed up with Blizzard and wont change his attitude, and the high five proceeded to happen (which I view not as a douchy move, but as a comradery "I'm fucking proud of what you said" moment, Destiny then shat on the players, and left as a freaking coward. Then Wheat lost it, because that's not how arguments with grownups are supposed to go. Nowhere in the freaking world. Nowhere. He lost it, because of the person that has been invited to his damn show, showed no capacity and respect to argue, then left like a child, when he deemed himself fed up enough. Wheat didn't even tell him to fuck off, he was just so mad that he would pussy out like that that he HAD to say something. What he said wasn't coherent, wasn't meant to hurt or belittle anyone, it was just pure rage, disbelief, and dissapointment. And people still got on Destiny's side. People still thought of him as a freaking martyr. I mean... Really? I GET maybe pitting against Geoff and Greg, because they have many haters but DjfreakingWheat? The guy who lives and breathes for this shit? My faith in humanity is restored. Thank you. Everyone who's raging on ITG, but not with Destiny is blatantly just ignoring asshat things Destiny did the entire interview. That final 'hurrah' as he left was what pushed Wheat into a rage, but conveniently is left out of every argument attacking ITG. Agreed wholeheartedly. Laying things out for Blizzard in a million and one ways doesn't change the fact they are very inept at making obvious changes. Brood War had lots of major problems, just look at the giant void that ICCup had to fill. Blizzard makes excuses instead of changes. In the case of LAN, its because of their agenda. When it comes to custom games, things are more complicated. From Blizzard's perspective, DotA wasn't a wholly successful reinforcement of their custom game strategy, which was mostly to improve WC3 custom game system over BWs. People like Destiny trying to spout that people are migrating from a Blizzard game over to spinoffs of a mod that was originally created with their own editor are not helping the argument that Blizzard needs to improve the custom game end of SC2. To look at another example of 'outrage' towards Blizzard when they had every reason to listen, but didn't, look no further than the backlash over art design in Diablo 3. The corporate minds at Activision wanted to go a route that had been proven as a way to please fans and lower costs. Highly stylized(colorful) and low polygon models with the blood effects to appease the more hardcore fans of the Diablo franchise. Well the fans weren't that simple minded, but instead of being rational about their criticism, they rampaged across the internet with a muddled argument. This hilariously brought every troll and the ire of WoW fans to the defense of Blizzard's 'artistic integrity'. Were they right about the style being out of place within the Diablo universe? Probably. Did the Blizzard developers know about this before it was even brought up? Probably. And nothing was changed. Lets look at another example, where the rampaging lead to some changes. The post-release of D3. The downside was a crippling of population within the community. Many people raged and threatened to leave and the obvious bargaining chip they had was that Blizzard wouldn't have as many auction sales. Most of the changes they ended up making were in fact geared towards more auction sales, not the overall experience. The point I'm making is that if we institute micro-transaction cosmetic items we won't see Blizzard all of a sudden investing more into the overall experience of SC2. We would be lucky if they didn't stop caring about the competitive scene altogether if that happened. The only argument to the contrary is the examples of Riot and Valve, but I think an example of what Blizzard itself does in that situation has much more relevance. How corporations think matters. Blizzard has become less and less immune to corporatism with publishers becoming more and more involved with developers. Riot and Valve are in a greatly different situation as far as development goes. I would go so far as to say half of Valve's incentive to make DotA 2 a better game is to advertise their digital publishing platform. Riot on the other hand sells heroes, advocating a Pay to Win model, which this community is staunchly against. I'm sorry this is a little off topic, but I really feel the need to correct this as so much disinformation about LoL is already presnt on TL. Do you not find it funny how it's only people like you who do not play the game who make comments like this? Name's "Pink" in the client if you want to add me and see how full of crap you really are. Played League since beta.
That's nice you have 184 wins so like 300 games played none of them ranked. My IGN is Karma P0lice I'm sitting at around 1400 normals and 1400 ranked games played so if you really want to bring experience in to this I think you lose.
I don't need to see how full of crap you are because it is blindingly obvious.
It's hilarious that none, literally zero of the competitive LoL scene would complain about the game being pay to win. All of that nonsense was made by people who do not even play the game competitively. ex. you
On October 26 2012 03:03 Leth0 wrote:
So you can't buy hero's in LoL? You said you "feel the need to correct the misinformation" but I don't see you correcting anything. Enlighten us please. I personally don't play the game so I wouldn't know.
Yes, you can buy Champions in LoL, However the way you purchase them is an option of money or time spent in game. This is not pay to win as an option is given and all competitive functions of the game do not require money to be spent.
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On October 26 2012 03:09 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:04 Eko200 wrote:On October 26 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:On October 26 2012 02:38 Eko200 wrote:On October 26 2012 01:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:On October 26 2012 00:46 CikaZombi wrote:On October 25 2012 22:43 5ukkub wrote:On October 25 2012 11:59 IdrA wrote:
the fact that theres actually people saying im too light on blizzard or that im happy/complacent with what theyre doing is the most damning proof ive ever seen that people will say anything to be obstinate assholes. Nobody said you are too light on Blizzard, nobody said you're happy/complacent with them. You said, and IncontroL agreed, that pressuring Blizzard is a nonsense, because they didn't do anything noticable to fix the game client and make it more casual-friendly, so can't ecpect them to suddenly change their approach. Well, i for one disagree, because YOU, the players, commentators, hosts aka PILLARS OF THE COMMUNITY never should stop voicing our concerns and thoughts about the game!Because you are being heared, not us! So when you stopped voicing those concerns, what the community is supposed to do? You can't ignore us! We all see what's going on with SC2 client and how other game's viewer counts rise, but our don't! And then came Destinny. He wrote what he wrote and it was the only thing that community could relate to!So do you want Destiny to be the voice of the community, or you, IdrA, IncontroL, djWheat? Idra and Incontrol never stopped voicing. Never. Incontrol does with with more humor, often ridiculing Blizzard's decisions. Idra is definantly more vocal about it and more explicit, which resulted in even Blizzard trolling him with the Hots beta key if anyone sill remembers. And they will always be like that if Blizzard screws up. The topics Destiny brought weren't new, and they were discussed many times before by many different influential persons in the community, including Idra and Incontrol. The main difference is the attitude. While they disagree, with the way they are supposed to approach to Blizzard and what to expect of them, and they voice in perfectly - imo - especially during the times everyone is acting irrational and overreacting. Which is the freaking job of the people that had been here the longest. The problem here is, and what hurts my soul, is that they couldn't have an argumented discussion with Destiny at no point of this show. Destiny was interrupting all the time and acting very very immature and this seemed like an argument with your parents when you are like 16 or 17 at most. Which is probably why so many people on reddit agree and praise him, because they are just those kinds of children. Destiny is a smart and passionate individual, but he couldn't calm down and, was jumping from topic to topic and just blaming Blizzard for everything that did, and what he assumed they won't do. Even when the ITG people told him that some of the issues he brought up WILL be fixed in the expansion, he ignored that and immediately jumped to the next issue. He was like a kid that wanted a Playstation for a birthday, and got a bike. Then his parents apologized, and got him a Playstation for his next birthday, but he was like: "ITS TOO LATE NOW, I STILL HATE YOU". He is never going to be happy, if Blizzard implemented the things he wanted TOMORROW, he would still just say: "Pfft, fucking finally!" You can't turn back time. Yes, it sucked these 2 years that they didn't do the stuff everyone wanted and expected them to do BUT they are either fixing it as we speak or they are aware of it and not doing it for various reasons we don't know. It might be their team is too small, it might be they don't get enough funds for additional programmers, it might be they want to save alot of content and release it as a selling point for an expansion, or they just don't deem them necessary. We. Don't. Know. But they DO care, and everyone knows this. This has been said, and the reasons were speculated on this show by Inc Idra and DjWheat, but to no avail. Knowing all this, it is NOT in our best interest to blame mommy and daddy and/or fight among ourselves, but to freaking unite and do what we can to better our game, our community and raise awareness for Blizzard. That's. It. Now the part that pisses me off is this: Destiny acted like a freaking teenager. When his argument met a brick wall, he changed the topic. Then when Idra had enough and just said what has been on everyone's mind the entire time, which was the absolute most positive thing anyone can say about the game they love to someone that is clearly too fed up with Blizzard and wont change his attitude, and the high five proceeded to happen (which I view not as a douchy move, but as a comradery "I'm fucking proud of what you said" moment, Destiny then shat on the players, and left as a freaking coward. Then Wheat lost it, because that's not how arguments with grownups are supposed to go. Nowhere in the freaking world. Nowhere. He lost it, because of the person that has been invited to his damn show, showed no capacity and respect to argue, then left like a child, when he deemed himself fed up enough. Wheat didn't even tell him to fuck off, he was just so mad that he would pussy out like that that he HAD to say something. What he said wasn't coherent, wasn't meant to hurt or belittle anyone, it was just pure rage, disbelief, and dissapointment. And people still got on Destiny's side. People still thought of him as a freaking martyr. I mean... Really? I GET maybe pitting against Geoff and Greg, because they have many haters but DjfreakingWheat? The guy who lives and breathes for this shit? My faith in humanity is restored. Thank you. Everyone who's raging on ITG, but not with Destiny is blatantly just ignoring asshat things Destiny did the entire interview. That final 'hurrah' as he left was what pushed Wheat into a rage, but conveniently is left out of every argument attacking ITG. Agreed wholeheartedly. Laying things out for Blizzard in a million and one ways doesn't change the fact they are very inept at making obvious changes. Brood War had lots of major problems, just look at the giant void that ICCup had to fill. Blizzard makes excuses instead of changes. In the case of LAN, its because of their agenda. When it comes to custom games, things are more complicated. From Blizzard's perspective, DotA wasn't a wholly successful reinforcement of their custom game strategy, which was mostly to improve WC3 custom game system over BWs. People like Destiny trying to spout that people are migrating from a Blizzard game over to spinoffs of a mod that was originally created with their own editor are not helping the argument that Blizzard needs to improve the custom game end of SC2. To look at another example of 'outrage' towards Blizzard when they had every reason to listen, but didn't, look no further than the backlash over art design in Diablo 3. The corporate minds at Activision wanted to go a route that had been proven as a way to please fans and lower costs. Highly stylized(colorful) and low polygon models with the blood effects to appease the more hardcore fans of the Diablo franchise. Well the fans weren't that simple minded, but instead of being rational about their criticism, they rampaged across the internet with a muddled argument. This hilariously brought every troll and the ire of WoW fans to the defense of Blizzard's 'artistic integrity'. Were they right about the style being out of place within the Diablo universe? Probably. Did the Blizzard developers know about this before it was even brought up? Probably. And nothing was changed. Lets look at another example, where the rampaging lead to some changes. The post-release of D3. The downside was a crippling of population within the community. Many people raged and threatened to leave and the obvious bargaining chip they had was that Blizzard wouldn't have as many auction sales. Most of the changes they ended up making were in fact geared towards more auction sales, not the overall experience. The point I'm making is that if we institute micro-transaction cosmetic items we won't see Blizzard all of a sudden investing more into the overall experience of SC2. We would be lucky if they didn't stop caring about the competitive scene altogether if that happened. The only argument to the contrary is the examples of Riot and Valve, but I think an example of what Blizzard itself does in that situation has much more relevance. How corporations think matters. Blizzard has become less and less immune to corporatism with publishers becoming more and more involved with developers. Riot and Valve are in a greatly different situation as far as development goes. I would go so far as to say half of Valve's incentive to make DotA 2 a better game is to advertise their digital publishing platform. Riot on the other hand sells heroes, advocating a Pay to Win model, which this community is staunchly against. I'm sorry this is a little off topic, but I really feel the need to correct this as so much disinformation about LoL is already presnt on TL. Do you not find it funny how it's only people like you who do not play the game who make comments like this? Name's "Pink" in the client if you want to add me and see how full of crap you really are. Played League since beta. That's nice you have 184 wins so like 300 games played none of them ranked. My IGN is Karma P0lice I'm sitting at around 1400 normals and 1400 ranked games played so if you really want to bring experience in to this I think you lose. I don't need to see how full of crap you are because it is blindingly obvious.
First you say I've never played, and I prove that I extensively have, as anyone who is level 30 in the game already must. Now you try to say how much better you are then me instead of admitting you are wrong? You should probably realize that among the vast changes Riot has made to the game, they didn't even have ranked matches till a long time after I bought into the game during beta.
Edit: nice ninja edit, you do realize when i'm on the teamliquid forum discussing sc2 and blizzard, that when i said "this" community i was saying sc2 competitive community doesn't want pay2win
Edit2: In nearly all pay2win games they have the gameplay affecting option available through playing the game. The problem is they make it so there's so much grinding involved that people who just want to casually enjoy the game end up buying the heroes because grinding out games to no end is not fun just to try out all the heroes. LoL has another crux to its grinding in that if you do buy all the heroes you spend all the currency meant for runes, crippling the hero you do end up getting until you grind some more.
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From what I'm looking at , you can buy hero's with RP (riot points) which are purchased with real money.
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On October 26 2012 03:15 Eko200 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:09 DonKey_ wrote:On October 26 2012 03:04 Eko200 wrote:On October 26 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:On October 26 2012 02:38 Eko200 wrote:On October 26 2012 01:53 Kazeyonoma wrote:On October 26 2012 00:46 CikaZombi wrote:On October 25 2012 22:43 5ukkub wrote:On October 25 2012 11:59 IdrA wrote:
the fact that theres actually people saying im too light on blizzard or that im happy/complacent with what theyre doing is the most damning proof ive ever seen that people will say anything to be obstinate assholes. Nobody said you are too light on Blizzard, nobody said you're happy/complacent with them. You said, and IncontroL agreed, that pressuring Blizzard is a nonsense, because they didn't do anything noticable to fix the game client and make it more casual-friendly, so can't ecpect them to suddenly change their approach. Well, i for one disagree, because YOU, the players, commentators, hosts aka PILLARS OF THE COMMUNITY never should stop voicing our concerns and thoughts about the game!Because you are being heared, not us! So when you stopped voicing those concerns, what the community is supposed to do? You can't ignore us! We all see what's going on with SC2 client and how other game's viewer counts rise, but our don't! And then came Destinny. He wrote what he wrote and it was the only thing that community could relate to!So do you want Destiny to be the voice of the community, or you, IdrA, IncontroL, djWheat? Idra and Incontrol never stopped voicing. Never. Incontrol does with with more humor, often ridiculing Blizzard's decisions. Idra is definantly more vocal about it and more explicit, which resulted in even Blizzard trolling him with the Hots beta key if anyone sill remembers. And they will always be like that if Blizzard screws up. The topics Destiny brought weren't new, and they were discussed many times before by many different influential persons in the community, including Idra and Incontrol. The main difference is the attitude. While they disagree, with the way they are supposed to approach to Blizzard and what to expect of them, and they voice in perfectly - imo - especially during the times everyone is acting irrational and overreacting. Which is the freaking job of the people that had been here the longest. The problem here is, and what hurts my soul, is that they couldn't have an argumented discussion with Destiny at no point of this show. Destiny was interrupting all the time and acting very very immature and this seemed like an argument with your parents when you are like 16 or 17 at most. Which is probably why so many people on reddit agree and praise him, because they are just those kinds of children. Destiny is a smart and passionate individual, but he couldn't calm down and, was jumping from topic to topic and just blaming Blizzard for everything that did, and what he assumed they won't do. Even when the ITG people told him that some of the issues he brought up WILL be fixed in the expansion, he ignored that and immediately jumped to the next issue. He was like a kid that wanted a Playstation for a birthday, and got a bike. Then his parents apologized, and got him a Playstation for his next birthday, but he was like: "ITS TOO LATE NOW, I STILL HATE YOU". He is never going to be happy, if Blizzard implemented the things he wanted TOMORROW, he would still just say: "Pfft, fucking finally!" You can't turn back time. Yes, it sucked these 2 years that they didn't do the stuff everyone wanted and expected them to do BUT they are either fixing it as we speak or they are aware of it and not doing it for various reasons we don't know. It might be their team is too small, it might be they don't get enough funds for additional programmers, it might be they want to save alot of content and release it as a selling point for an expansion, or they just don't deem them necessary. We. Don't. Know. But they DO care, and everyone knows this. This has been said, and the reasons were speculated on this show by Inc Idra and DjWheat, but to no avail. Knowing all this, it is NOT in our best interest to blame mommy and daddy and/or fight among ourselves, but to freaking unite and do what we can to better our game, our community and raise awareness for Blizzard. That's. It. Now the part that pisses me off is this: Destiny acted like a freaking teenager. When his argument met a brick wall, he changed the topic. Then when Idra had enough and just said what has been on everyone's mind the entire time, which was the absolute most positive thing anyone can say about the game they love to someone that is clearly too fed up with Blizzard and wont change his attitude, and the high five proceeded to happen (which I view not as a douchy move, but as a comradery "I'm fucking proud of what you said" moment, Destiny then shat on the players, and left as a freaking coward. Then Wheat lost it, because that's not how arguments with grownups are supposed to go. Nowhere in the freaking world. Nowhere. He lost it, because of the person that has been invited to his damn show, showed no capacity and respect to argue, then left like a child, when he deemed himself fed up enough. Wheat didn't even tell him to fuck off, he was just so mad that he would pussy out like that that he HAD to say something. What he said wasn't coherent, wasn't meant to hurt or belittle anyone, it was just pure rage, disbelief, and dissapointment. And people still got on Destiny's side. People still thought of him as a freaking martyr. I mean... Really? I GET maybe pitting against Geoff and Greg, because they have many haters but DjfreakingWheat? The guy who lives and breathes for this shit? My faith in humanity is restored. Thank you. Everyone who's raging on ITG, but not with Destiny is blatantly just ignoring asshat things Destiny did the entire interview. That final 'hurrah' as he left was what pushed Wheat into a rage, but conveniently is left out of every argument attacking ITG. Agreed wholeheartedly. Laying things out for Blizzard in a million and one ways doesn't change the fact they are very inept at making obvious changes. Brood War had lots of major problems, just look at the giant void that ICCup had to fill. Blizzard makes excuses instead of changes. In the case of LAN, its because of their agenda. When it comes to custom games, things are more complicated. From Blizzard's perspective, DotA wasn't a wholly successful reinforcement of their custom game strategy, which was mostly to improve WC3 custom game system over BWs. People like Destiny trying to spout that people are migrating from a Blizzard game over to spinoffs of a mod that was originally created with their own editor are not helping the argument that Blizzard needs to improve the custom game end of SC2. To look at another example of 'outrage' towards Blizzard when they had every reason to listen, but didn't, look no further than the backlash over art design in Diablo 3. The corporate minds at Activision wanted to go a route that had been proven as a way to please fans and lower costs. Highly stylized(colorful) and low polygon models with the blood effects to appease the more hardcore fans of the Diablo franchise. Well the fans weren't that simple minded, but instead of being rational about their criticism, they rampaged across the internet with a muddled argument. This hilariously brought every troll and the ire of WoW fans to the defense of Blizzard's 'artistic integrity'. Were they right about the style being out of place within the Diablo universe? Probably. Did the Blizzard developers know about this before it was even brought up? Probably. And nothing was changed. Lets look at another example, where the rampaging lead to some changes. The post-release of D3. The downside was a crippling of population within the community. Many people raged and threatened to leave and the obvious bargaining chip they had was that Blizzard wouldn't have as many auction sales. Most of the changes they ended up making were in fact geared towards more auction sales, not the overall experience. The point I'm making is that if we institute micro-transaction cosmetic items we won't see Blizzard all of a sudden investing more into the overall experience of SC2. We would be lucky if they didn't stop caring about the competitive scene altogether if that happened. The only argument to the contrary is the examples of Riot and Valve, but I think an example of what Blizzard itself does in that situation has much more relevance. How corporations think matters. Blizzard has become less and less immune to corporatism with publishers becoming more and more involved with developers. Riot and Valve are in a greatly different situation as far as development goes. I would go so far as to say half of Valve's incentive to make DotA 2 a better game is to advertise their digital publishing platform. Riot on the other hand sells heroes, advocating a Pay to Win model, which this community is staunchly against. I'm sorry this is a little off topic, but I really feel the need to correct this as so much disinformation about LoL is already presnt on TL. Do you not find it funny how it's only people like you who do not play the game who make comments like this? Name's "Pink" in the client if you want to add me and see how full of crap you really are. Played League since beta. That's nice you have 184 wins so like 300 games played none of them ranked. My IGN is Karma P0lice I'm sitting at around 1400 normals and 1400 ranked games played so if you really want to bring experience in to this I think you lose. I don't need to see how full of crap you are because it is blindingly obvious. First you say I've never played, and I prove that I extensively have, as anyone who is level 30 in the game already must. Now you try to say how much better you are then me instead of admitting you are wrong? You should probably realize that among the vast changes Riot has made to the game, they didn't even have ranked matches till a long time after I bought into the game during beta. Edit: nice ninja edit, you do realize when i'm on the teamliquid forum discussing sc2 and blizzard, that when i said "this" community i was saying sc2 community doesn't want pay2win
This is wrong place for us to discuss this I will PM you to continue this.
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While the focus has been on the yelling and complete meltdown that Wheat had, the more important part was his counter argument to SC2 losing viewers on every stream and every tournament.
Wheat's argument is that he spoke to a guy at Twitch who said that more people watch games than ever before and that esports is saved. But Destiny never claimed esports was doing badly, he said STARCRAFT 2 is doing badly and has seen dramatic decrease in viewership.
Your argument would be like saying that horseracing is doing great in america and is bigger than ever because X amount of people watch the NFL every Monday and Superbowl did monster ratings.
You never addressed the fact that players are leaving the game (Select for example and quite alot of koreans), that viewership for STARCRAFT 2: WINGS OF LIBERTY (Developed by Blizzard Entertainment, published by Activision Blizzard) has seen drastic decline in viewership compared to just last year. The tournaments that did 60-70k viewers do around 30-35k, again look at TeamLiquid.net and keep a eye on viewership for both streams and tournaments.
But why am i even telling you this, you surely have statistics straight from Twitch and others, Idra's "counter" if you can even call it that, was that HotS will bring people back, everything is fine guys. Like that army general in Iraq who famously told people on TV to calm down while his city in the backround is being razed. Incontrol added nothing of substance, other than bad jokes and generally acting like a child.
Yes LoL is doing fantastic, and thus Twitch is doing better than ever, but this is not about Twitch Wheat, this is about Starcraft 2, what is your explanation for decline in viewership?
Tough i do understand if you more or less do not care, you have wealth of experience and plenty of contacts to land you another job, so if Twitch is doing great and LoL is doing massive business then everything is fine. SC2 pioneering people watching live streams means jackshit in the end, why did you even bring this up?
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