EPTYes, I know his playstyle well, playing with him for the 2nd time already, it does not mean I can give him a freepass since he is wishy washy also as scum. I point it out as everyone should if they find someone with that much filler/fluff. But I also know that he can be precise, so I am waiting for his scumhunt to see. If he does a good enough job to convince me of his town-alignment than I will switch my vote to other candidates such as the lurky ones (risk, prphlz) or Forumite, although I would be more hesitant to vote him.
Dwarf Fortress Mini Mafia - Page 14
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Yes, I know his playstyle well, playing with him for the 2nd time already, it does not mean I can give him a freepass since he is wishy washy also as scum. I point it out as everyone should if they find someone with that much filler/fluff. But I also know that he can be precise, so I am waiting for his scumhunt to see. If he does a good enough job to convince me of his town-alignment than I will switch my vote to other candidates such as the lurky ones (risk, prphlz) or Forumite, although I would be more hesitant to vote him. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:12 marvellosity wrote: you pick many holes but have yet to take a proper stance care to do so? On Mord? Not particularly, no. His posts are extremely verbose, but so were his posts in XXII. 100% Null tell The whole policy vs heuristics thing was a misunderstanding that I believe you cleared up. They just aren't the same thing. Nothing he has done so far jumps out at me as particularly scummy. Both of those things are very similar to townie Mord in XXII, which Shiao obs'd, which was why I questioned him. I find that much more scummy than anything Mord has done to this point. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
@ CL: Just because townies aren't capable of planning as scum doesn't make them incapable of planning as townies. As a specific example, in NMM 14 Release (town) went fishing for a kp by tunelling one player all night cycle. When he wasn't killed, he assumed that the player he had tunneled wasn't scum, and thought of that person as confirmed town. He was wrong. He made a plan to find a scum, and it backfired and would have lost the game had it not ended earlier due to a hardcore lurker. This is a large part of why plans scare me~ they backfire as often as not if hatched by a townie, and they're really susceptible to WIFOM, which is a great thing for scum to hide behind. Moving to the pertinent bits, I think the scummiest player so far has been ShiaoPi. + Show Spoiler + Before anyone claims OMGUS, please read through. I am not accusing Shiao because I'm pissed, but because his play seems aligned with scum goals He starts the game off with a really bad post. + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins. + Show Spoiler + As a digression, literally less than an hour after yelling that policy is bad, Shiao is discussing the multi-lynch mechanic. In fact, Shiao makes 8 posts centered on policy after coming out as anti-policy. And he calls my play wishy-washy ^^ His next non-policy non-probing post is his accusation of me. + Show Spoiler [for your convenience] + On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote: I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis: Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote: -snip- Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler + On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^ Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis Even further, this is the first true case of the game, unless you count Forumite's claim that Shiao is scum. Again, posting the first case of the game is generally a good way to gain town trust in my experience. So far Shiao has seemed pretty desperate to gain a place of trust within the town. The reason I have been focusing on this is because of a post by Marv in the obs QT for NMM 22, in which Shiao has been fairly active, where he says + Show Spoiler [names edited out for active game prote…] + yes, that was (Player A)'s big mistake. Miscalculation of the consequences of doing so and of(Player B)'s town-standing (which was very high; perhaps (Player A) got misled that (Player C)'s attacks on (Player B) = not high standing? but that wasn't the case) Effectively you should not pick fights with townies who have a higher town-standing than you. (Player A) had a decent town-standing at the time but not as high as (Player B). Further to this point, it goes to show the very high value of being super townie as scum (i.e. how i play). Because then if someone decides to take you on, town sides with you. The higher your town-standing, the more town are willing to passively accept your arguments without too much criticism. Lylo in LIV was a really good example of this - I used pure WIFOM to explain away the fact I didn't die the night before and town just lapped it up because I was so established. But if you haven't got high town credit you can't get away with that kinda stuff at all. @ Forumite, I hope this is clear enough for you: ##FoS ShiaoPi For now, I need to go back and do some more analyzing and see SP's response before voting. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:37 Keirathi wrote: On Mord? Not particularly, no. His posts are extremely verbose, but so were his posts in XXII. 100% Null tell The whole policy vs heuristics thing was a misunderstanding that I believe you cleared up. They just aren't the same thing. Nothing he has done so far jumps out at me as particularly scummy. Both of those things are very similar to townie Mord in XXII, which Shiao obs'd, which was why I questioned him. I find that much more scummy than anything Mord has done to this point. No, I meant anyone/anything. Who is your strongest read and why? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. He starts the game off with a really bad post. + Show Spoiler + As the first post of any kind, you have to think about its purpose. Regardless of how a game progresses, it always starts with policy-talking. There is simply nothing to talk about before this. Really, what do people talk about at the beginning of a game if there is no policy talk? I see this as anti-discussion, which obviously helps scum. Furthermore, by posting zero content while coming out against policy, Shiao is trying to grab town cred. Trying to gain town's trust seems more scum motivated than town-motivated. Town wants scum found, doesn't really care if one VT dies in the process. The life of any scum is much more valued though, so survival is much more important. This makes town trust much more valuable to scum than to town. Overall, this is pretty suspicious. Explain. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
 your objection was better than mine. fuuuumine was valid but yours especially so | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
Marv: I'm assuming that you're referring to my analysis of his first post as well. The reason I believe that his first post is an attempt to buy town cred is because it is generically pro-town without offering any details or actually helping town. Needing to seem pro-town but not contributing to discussion is patently scummy, as it is supposed to give him all the benefits of a high level of trust while stalling D1 discussion. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
Forumite is the scummiest in the thread right now. There was only one right answer to my question about what his ShiaoPi accusations were about and that was "I was just trying to create discussion", but instead Forumite actually says that he was testing if his scumsenses were working after a break. This makes absolutely no sense because Forumite did not throw any sort of accusation together. This seems like scum making something up under light pressure and it just collapses under him, he is trying to make it seem like what he did was absolutely townie and only townie instead of just telling the truth, only scum are that afraid of appearing slightly non-townie that they make up an excuse like that. I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day). ##Vote Forumite | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:23 sciberbia wrote: I asked you if you had any pressing questions for me about your case on me, but I assume you don´t. @Forumite I know you asked me a question, but I don't have time to address it right now. On August 09 2012 05:30 marvellosity wrote: Are you talking about how I didn´t follow up my initial accusation of scum with real pressure? I accused him of being scum based in the first post. Since then I realised that my initial my read was unsure and my case weak. Once I had called ShiaoPi scum on weak grounds it was a lose-lose situation. I could drop it and look wishy-washy, or keep it up and look like I was secretive with important information. I opted for the second one, because then at least scum would have to keep guessing, and I might keep a bit of pressure on them. That´s why I didn´t like that you asked me to reveal or shut up, and why I questioned you about it earlier today. It made me (that post was a big part of the reason I dropped the "case") abandon my plan and show that I really had nothing on ShiaoPi. you ask him to make his scumreads clear yet with ShiaoPi you yourself were nowhere near In all seriousness, can you answer the point raised by scib/me about voting to pressure VS more likely to scumslip not under pressure? On August 09 2012 05:38 Mordanis wrote: Quite clear, at least that part. Are you confident enough in your read to put down your vote too? @ Forumite, I hope this is clear enough for you: ##FoS ShiaoPi | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:19 prplhz wrote: Hey guys Forumite is the scummiest in the thread right now. There was only one right answer to my question about what his ShiaoPi accusations were about and that was "I was just trying to create discussion", but instead Forumite actually says that he was testing if his scumsenses were working after a break. This makes absolutely no sense because Forumite did not throw any sort of accusation together. This seems like scum making something up under light pressure and it just collapses under him, he is trying to make it seem like what he did was absolutely townie and only townie instead of just telling the truth, only scum are that afraid of appearing slightly non-townie that they make up an excuse like that. I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day). ##Vote Forumite prplhz, you are back! You are correct, the only good answer is "create discussion", and I knew that allready, but that wasn´t what happened. I thought I was on to something, I was wrong, and that mistake has been one of the most important topics of D1. I did create discussion in the end, but it wasn´t my intention. My intention was to find scum and pressure him, but it backfired, tough but true. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:25 Forumite wrote: Are you talking about how I didn´t follow up my initial accusation of scum with real pressure? I accused him of being scum based in the first post. Since then I realised that my initial my read was unsure and my case weak. Once I had called ShiaoPi scum on weak grounds it was a lose-lose situation. I could drop it and look wishy-washy, or keep it up and look like I was secretive with important information. I opted for the second one, because then at least scum would have to keep guessing, and I might keep a bit of pressure on them. That´s why I didn´t like that you asked me to reveal or shut up, and why I questioned you about it earlier today. It made me (that post was a big part of the reason I dropped the "case") abandon my plan and show that I really had nothing on ShiaoPi. @Forumite I don't think that is what marv was asking about. Can you explain why you didn't simply explain your (supposedly legitimate) read on shiaopi in your first couple posts where you called him scum? Please clearly explain 1) Why you thought it was a good idea to announce your read 2) Why you thought it was a good idea to not explain your read @prplhz If you are going to lurk, and admit to being lurkish, could you at least give a good reason for your lurking? Are you just disinterested in the game for some reason? Will you contribute more in future? | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
looks like I have to repeat what I said already towards Forumite: On August 08 2012 06:42 ShiaoPi wrote: -snip- I wanted to get started, so I posted, probably should have proofread it to avoid misunderstandings like this one. I am not against shutting down policytalk completely, I have already done some of it myslef by now. I was more stating the intent to not go overboard with it, since scumhunting is our priority. I wanted to get going and posted, nothing more nothing less. If I wanted to shut down policy stuff and discussion in general, why did I post a good deal of policy talk myself? Also how the hell is that supposed to gain town cred? It had more the effect of being called out immediately first by marv, then Forumite now you. Does that add up as "gaining town cred" to you? On the argument of me not searching for scum properly with my case, I clearly state that I see it as attempts to seem contributing while doing nothing at all, it also clutters up the thread. The most damning evidence seems to be the timing of my post as being the "first case". You show a lack of careful reading here, if sciberbia's post on Forumite was no case than I have no clue what my post was. Aren't you trying too hard to twist my posts in some scheme of gaining towncred when there is actually none? Also if you are convinced that I am scum, why don't you put down that vote? Keeping it to yourself right now does not really have an effect. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On August 09 2012 06:42 sciberbia wrote: 1) I thought it was a good idea to call him out, to pressure him for a bit. @Forumite I don't think that is what marv was asking about. Can you explain why you didn't simply explain your (supposedly legitimate) read on shiaopi in your first couple posts where you called him scum? Please clearly explain 1) Why you thought it was a good idea to announce your read 2) Why you thought it was a good idea to not explain your read 2) I thought leaving him to wonder what he had done wrong for a while was better, that might also give me a few more posts to build a case on, making it stronger once finally revealed. I didn´t see a need to reveal everything right away, so I didn´t. On August 09 2012 06:46 prplhz wrote: I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post. Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia). | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote: [...] I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post. Your excuse is a lie, you were not testing out your reads. You are now trying to take credit for something which you inadvertently caused which makes no sense at all. You appear to be overly worried about what people think about you and your explanations don't make sense. This is why you are the scummiest in the thread. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
can't tell if mordanis is scum or just made a really atrocious case. as you're here, what did you make of mordanis' case on ShiaoPi, prplhz? | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On August 09 2012 08:02 marvellosity wrote: ugh this Forumite stuff is soooo dense. What do you mean by dense? Also, I'd like to hear who you currently think is most likely scum. On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote: I thought leaving him to wonder what he had done wrong for a while was better, that might also give me a few more posts to build a case on, making it stronger once finally revealed. I didn´t see a need to reveal everything right away, so I didn´t. For some reason, I find this quote extremely funny. Just thought I'd point it out. I'm really not impressed by Forumite's explanation, and as prplhz pointed out, the line about "just testing my scumsense" seems like another contradictory attempt at an explanation. I'll be afk for the next 2 hours or so. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
Most likely to be scum? ick. to be continued. For when you return - please talk about Mordanis' case on shiaopi. | ||
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