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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 09 2012 02:42 Keirathi wrote:
@Marv: oh yea, I remember this game. I missed the first day or two of it, but read the later days.
So point taken, scum can play really..."badly" on day1. How often does it happen though? I can link you to a lot more examples where the person with the most Scummy Marks on day1 was actually a townie.
This is part of why I always hate about the day1 lynch. Do I just vote the person who has the most scummy points? Or do I WIFOM around it because playing badly as scum just doesn't make sense most of the time?
yeah, I get what you're saying. What I'm getting at is that you should try not to WIFOM yourself out of lynches. The fact is that town and scum can play badly or well day 1 or otherwise. So all other things being equal, the guy who plays like scum has a decent chance of flipping scum.
That very same game (Normal 2), I WIFOMed myself out of yet another scum lynch day 2 with Zentor, because I simply could not believe scum would play so scummily and pick a fight with me... but again, it was in fact the case.
If you're not gonna lynch someone for playing scummily day 1, what are you going to lynch for?
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Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
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On August 09 2012 02:51 marvellosity wrote:
If you're not gonna lynch someone for playing scummily day 1, what are you going to lynch for?
That IS the problem, isn't it?
In I Can't Believe, Vivax was easily the "scummiest" person day1. But his play really fit his town meta (and he was a blue), so I went with DropBear who I felt was playing scummily (and actually WAS scum), but in much less obvious ways.
But in NMM XXII, I went with the scummiest player in Golbat. I was 100% wrong and lynched a blue.
So, I don't know what the best way to make the decision on who to vote for is. Forumite is the most obviously scummy so far in this game, but my personal past experiences with day1 lynches have left me gunshy towards voting the most obvious scum.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote:
Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
This post of DoYouHas makes me suspicious of him.
1) Perhaps I am biased, but I don't like his reasons for soft defending Forumite. I don't know how announcing a read but keeping it to yourself is 'transparent' and 'trying to move the thread forward'. His stance on Forumite seems wishy/washy and I'm not a fan.
2) He says that Mordanis reads as 'very likely scum', but then he votes prplhz for lurking? wtf? If you think somebody is very likely scum, and they already have two votes on them, you as a townie should add your vote, not vote for a lurker to 'keep him in the spotlight'.
FoS DoYouHas
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On August 09 2012 03:28 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote:
Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
This post of DoYouHas makes me suspicious of him. 1) Perhaps I am biased, but I don't like his reasons for soft defending Forumite. I don't know how announcing a read but keeping it to yourself is 'transparent' and 'trying to move the thread forward'. His stance on Forumite seems wishy/washy and I'm not a fan. 2) He says that Mordanis reads as 'very likely scum', but then he votes prplhz for lurking? wtf? If you think somebody is very likely scum, and they already have two votes on them, you as a townie should add your vote, not vote for a lurker to 'keep him in the spotlight'. FoS DoYouHas
To be fair, that's pretty much what marvel did with Forumite/me. I'm not sure how suspicious marvel still finds me, but he has at least been very vocal and forthright with his thoughts as opposed to DoYouHas.
I will add a point to your thoughts though. Day 1, it is extremely difficult to distinguish scummy play from poor/misinformed town play. In my eyes, it is not the blatantly bad people that need to be as heavily focused on - they will continue to be bad and always be under the microscope. It is the complacent, quiet, and appeasing ones that are worrisome for town because they can slide under the radar and stay there.
In DYH's posts, he hasn't really added much at all. In his 3 content posts, he mainly focused on double-lynch discussion, prplhz's 2 useless posts, and really nothing else. There has been very little added from his posts. Nothing really new has been brought up. He's agreeing with arguments without building upon it in an attempt to keep blame off of him.
I do agree with DYH in that prpl needs to show up, but DYH also needs to be watched closely.
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On August 09 2012 00:37 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote:HiroProOn August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote:
(directed at Mordanis)
What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote:
Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way. mm, you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't agreeing with the case - there's no contradiction there (setup and policy aren't the same thing). What I was more interested in was that two of Forumite's main points were that ShiaoPi wasn't sharing his own thoughts and was trying to "shut down discussion". However, right after Forumite made his inital accusation, Shiao was willing to discuss the setup, which doesn't really fit with his points. I wanted to know whether that changed his read. I was ninja'd, I only read his first post before replying. Yes, his later posts did make me undure about my initial read, but I didn't want to retreat immediately.
@scrib
Is there anything specific you want answered by me? I hear people saying that I haven't responded to your case, but I thought I had done that allready, although while replying to others.
@CL
Any other suspicions other than mord?
With how the game looks right now, I want to lynch prplhz or mord. Prplhz doesn't play anything like I'm used to seing him play (as town), and mord is lurking too much for his few big but empty posts.
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Wow, I picked the anti-timing to sleep -.-
I'll do some defense first, because it takes less time, and in a while I'll come back with my reads so far.
First things first: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 16:00 slOosh wrote:Hey guys, didn't anticipate the early deadline so yea ... Anyways, any of the blue roles can be used to the "innocent child" effect. Scum are extremely limited in their ability to fakeclaim because it is a blue-wise open setup (we might not know the 2nd blue identity but we can still cc any blue claim instantly). I recommend whoever is blue to consider this and not hastily throw away a potential advantage here by claiming early (mainly tracker but same thing extends to watcher/cop). No go on double lynch. Too exploitable / volatile in a game this small. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote:
I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote:
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Hey Mordanis, could you explain this contradiction? If this was an attempt to draw scum out, you have now just alerted them all with the second post, which goes against what you said in the first post. You said you are currently null on Forumite yet it seems like you are leaning a certain direction in your read of him.
Moving on, there's ShiaoPi's case on me + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote:I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis:Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote:
I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:
-snip-
Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote:
He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote:
Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis
About my questions to CL, I honestly don't see any wishy-washiness. I said that it didn't make sense to claim town and tell VTs not to claim VT in the same post, but that it doesn't seem particularly scummy. I don't really see any reason for scum to do this. Later I said that if you are claiming town you are really claiming VT because it makes sense. If you claim town, you are saying that you're either green or blue. If you claim a blue role at this point, you're either really bad or scum. It makes much more sense to interpret someone claiming town as claiming VT. This does not contradict what I said earlier. Going further, there is no analysis of why potential wishy-washiness would be alignment indicative.
Finally, Shiao mentions that he thinks that I should have voted for him because I didn't agree with him that policy talking is unnecessary or unimportant or even scummy. I don't see how Shiao can criticize my logic when a large part of his reason for voting for me is based on how I did not vote arbitrarily for someone because I didn't agree with them.
BRB, I'm going to go get some lunch, and then I'll do some scum-hunting.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
@Mord:
Is it just me feeling this way or did you defend yourself using the things (fluffs/filler and policy talk with no content) I critisized about you?
I also do not understand what you are talking about in your last paragraph. I did not say I am voting for you because you did not arbitrarily vote for someone on terms of disagreement. I have said that you are simply doing nothing for town, while appearing to be contributing due to the large size and redundancy of your posts.
You better do some good scum-hunting in order for me to get off your back.
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@mordanis
You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched.
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On August 09 2012 03:28 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote:
Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
This post of DoYouHas makes me suspicious of him. 1) Perhaps I am biased, but I don't like his reasons for soft defending Forumite. I don't know how announcing a read but keeping it to yourself is 'transparent' and 'trying to move the thread forward'. His stance on Forumite seems wishy/washy and I'm not a fan. 2) He says that Mordanis reads as 'very likely scum', but then he votes prplhz for lurking? wtf? If you think somebody is very likely scum, and they already have two votes on them, you as a townie should add your vote, not vote for a lurker to 'keep him in the spotlight'. FoS DoYouHas
1) I found Forumite's initial suspicion of Shiao to be extremely transparent, honestly, what possible reasons could he have had that early in the game? Either he picked Shiao arbitrarily for early pressure as a conversation starter or he picked up on something in Shiao's initial posts. And those were the explanations he gave us. The timings of his explanations were a bit off and his pandering to more well known players came off badly, but lets look at the rest of his filter. He has been defending himself (how he handles this is the heart of your case I believe scrib). But he also is addressing most of the topics that have been brought up, he is asking players questions, and he is making his stances known. That moves the thread forward. My stance isn't wishy-washy, it was quite clear. He mishandled some of his play but I feel his motivation is more likely to be town.
2) You are being short sighted and misrepresenting my reasons for voting prplz. His lurking is only a 4th of why I voted him, even though it is an important 4th.
1. Just based off his 2 posts, if that was all I was considering, would make me guess scum over town for him. I have already mentioned how I don't like his first post and his second post seemed designed to tear Forumite down rather than to gain information. Maybe if he followed up, but he didn't.
2. As mentioned by 1-2 people, he is not playing into his town meta.
3. He is lurking, which hurts town and is worse because he had potential to help lead town.
4. I needed to get this vote out there now because prplhz was getting pushed out of consideration for the lynch, which is wrong.
I have more reasons for voting prplhz than I do Mord right now, and my opinion is only reenforced as time goes by without prplhz contributing.
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On August 09 2012 04:03 Mordanis wrote:Wow, I picked the anti-timing to sleep -.- I'll do some defense first, because it takes less time, and in a while I'll come back with my reads so far. First things first: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 16:00 slOosh wrote:Hey guys, didn't anticipate the early deadline so yea ... Anyways, any of the blue roles can be used to the "innocent child" effect. Scum are extremely limited in their ability to fakeclaim because it is a blue-wise open setup (we might not know the 2nd blue identity but we can still cc any blue claim instantly). I recommend whoever is blue to consider this and not hastily throw away a potential advantage here by claiming early (mainly tracker but same thing extends to watcher/cop). No go on double lynch. Too exploitable / volatile in a game this small. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote:
I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote:
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Hey Mordanis, could you explain this contradiction? If this was an attempt to draw scum out, you have now just alerted them all with the second post, which goes against what you said in the first post. You said you are currently null on Forumite yet it seems like you are leaning a certain direction in your read of him. I don't see how noticing what seems to be planned play tells scum how to play. Plans scare the shit out of me because, though they aren't alignment-indicative, they tend to be very unpredictable in my experience. I think its much better play to simply hunt scum through analysis. Furthermore, saying that I'm wary of plans cannot inform scum strategy, since scum always need an overlying plan. Unless the scum abandon their QT or use it purely for social interaction, their play will be somewhat "planned". Also, townies are just as capable as scum to plan their play, so "planned play" isn't a scum-tell, its just something that scares me.Moving on, there's ShiaoPi's case on me + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote:I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis:Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote:
I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:
-snip-
Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote:
He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote:
Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis First off, I never said that I was against policy talking. On the contrary, I think that establishing a common attitude of how to use power roles, how to use common mechanics and new mechanics, and some other things. The problem with talking policy is that if you do it wrong it can inform scum strategy. If you say "I find that 90% of the time I see a certain behavior, the person exhibiting that behavior is scum", you've told scum what to avoid in order to avoid detection. On a similar note, in several of the games I've played in, people have said they won't lynch lurkers unless they basically claim scum. This is really dumb because it gives scum an easy way to get into the mid to late game without anything to hold against them, plus it disincentivizes contribution to the scum-hunt. Talking policy in this way is very harmful to town. About my questions to CL, I honestly don't see any wishy-washiness. I said that it didn't make sense to claim town and tell VTs not to claim VT in the same post, but that it doesn't seem particularly scummy. I don't really see any reason for scum to do this. Later I said that if you are claiming town you are really claiming VT because it makes sense. If you claim town, you are saying that you're either green or blue. If you claim a blue role at this point, you're either really bad or scum. It makes much more sense to interpret someone claiming town as claiming VT. This does not contradict what I said earlier. Going further, there is no analysis of why potential wishy-washiness would be alignment indicative. Finally, Shiao mentions that he thinks that I should have voted for him because I didn't agree with him that policy talking is unnecessary or unimportant or even scummy. I don't see how Shiao can criticize my logic when a large part of his reason for voting for me is based on how I did not vote arbitrarily for someone because I didn't agree with them. BRB, I'm going to go get some lunch, and then I'll do some scum-hunting.
Townies are NOT as capable of making plans as scum. You're talking out of your ass now. Scum have a private means with which to make plans with people they all know are with each other. Town is limited to the thread with the constant threat of dissent due to a warranted lack of trust caused by the burden of misinformation.
P.S.: your posts are awful to read and even worse to try and quote. Being verbose does not make your argument better.
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On August 09 2012 04:34 Forumite wrote:
@mordanis
You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched.
Not that I disagree with you that his posts have fluff, but take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315&user=137393
This is just his posting style. He always used a lot of words to get his point across in that game. I don't necessarily condone the practice, because his posts were generally hard to read, but to blindly condemn him for it is just as bad. All it takes is a little research to see that this isn't some new scheme he's using to try to pull the rug over our eyes.
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@ShiaoPi: And you. You obs'd that game. You should know that his posting style fits with his general playstyle, so using that as a basis to vote him is silly. Do you think the content is different? Do you just want him to change his playstyle? Or are you a scum and know that he was almost an easy mislynch because of his verbosity in XXII and you think you can argue good enough to get it this time?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 09 2012 04:54 Keirathi wrote:
@ShiaoPi: And you. You obs'd that game. You should know that his posting style fits with his general playstyle, so using that as a basis to vote him is silly. Do you think the content is different? Do you just want him to change his playstyle? Or are you a scum and know that he was almost an easy mislynch because of his verbosity in XXII and you think you can argue good enough to get it this time?
you pick many holes but have yet to take a proper stance
care to do so?
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@Forumite
I know you asked me a question, but I don't have time to address it right now.
On August 09 2012 04:34 DoYouHas wrote:
I have more reasons for voting prplhz than I do Mord right now, and my opinion is only reenforced as time goes by without prplhz contributing.
@DYH
Please answer the following question for me: who do you think is more likely to be scum: Mordanis or prplhz? I'm not asking about who you have more reasons for voting for, or who you want to keep in the spotlight. If you had to bet your life savings right now on who is scum, who would you bet on?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
##Unvote
Custos is actually getting involved in town affairs
##Vote: prplhz
prplhz very much is not.
I'm going to look more into the Forumite situation. Need to mull over what slOosh said to me and also see if I can make anything out of what seems to be a lot of 'meh' from people about it.
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On August 09 2012 04:45 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 04:34 Forumite wrote:
@mordanis
You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched. Not that I disagree with you that his posts have fluff, but take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315&user=137393This is just his posting style. He always used a lot of words to get his point across in that game. I don't necessarily condone the practice, because his posts were generally hard to read, but to blindly condemn him for it is just as bad. All it takes is a little research to see that this isn't some new scheme he's using to try to pull the rug over our eyes.
I don't care, he must be able to make it clear to us what his reads are. It could just as well be him posting in hexadecimal code, or with posts of exactly two sentences that always rhyme. Too much fluff makes it hard to understand what he means, that's not transparency.
Note:
risk.nuke is lurking
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:27 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 04:45 Keirathi wrote:On August 09 2012 04:34 Forumite wrote:
@mordanis
You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched. Not that I disagree with you that his posts have fluff, but take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315&user=137393This is just his posting style. He always used a lot of words to get his point across in that game. I don't necessarily condone the practice, because his posts were generally hard to read, but to blindly condemn him for it is just as bad. All it takes is a little research to see that this isn't some new scheme he's using to try to pull the rug over our eyes. I don't care, he must be able to make it clear to us what his reads are. It could just as well be him posting in hexadecimal code, or with posts of exactly two sentences that always rhyme. Too much fluff makes it hard to understand what he means, that's not transparency. Note: risk.nuke is lurking
you ask him to make his scumreads clear
yet with ShiaoPi you yourself were nowhere near
In all seriousness, can you answer the point raised by scib/me about voting to pressure VS more likely to scumslip not under pressure?
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Let's kill prplhz. As town he may act overwhelmed at times but he certainly doesn't display the attitude or lack of interest that he does here.
This is much more like his scum games (Normal Mini II and Movie Star) where he acts annoyed and angry for no reason and does nothing.
As for Forumite, I'll wait and see. The contradiction that sciberbia and slOosh talk about (wanting to pressure Shiao but at the same time withholding reasoning because ) is certainly present but he's brought a lot more attention onto himself actively than I would expect from a scum player and definitely looks interested in town affairs. We shouldn't lynch him today.
##Vote prplhz
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EBWOP: because he wants to see what he does without pressure
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EPT
