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*Blazinghand is helping me co-host this game. Any questions can be directed towards him or myself.
The coaches for this game are: no coaches for you. Please consult them if you want advice on playing the game.
Game name + Show Spoiler [Important Posts] +
Introduction: Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. I will not compensate for ignorance.
Rules: Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. 2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town. 3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. 4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles. 5. Posting screenshots of your inbox. 6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. 7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip. 8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. 9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. 10. Sharing accounts with other players unless cleared by the host in advance. Otherwise, only you may post on your account. 11. Breadcrumbing the specific phrasing of your role PM. Do not compare the phrasing in your role PM to prove your alignment. You can claim the abilities you have, but you can't use the specific phrasing of your role PM. 12. Posting a false role PM phrased as if you received it from the host. You can still fake roleclaim, but you cannot make it look like you are posting a PM you received from the host. Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting: Mod Font: This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font: This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity: You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
Smurfs:
On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote: Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts.
Spam: Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here. This also means you should condense your posts when possible. 15 one-liners in 30 minutes is unacceptable.
Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything.
Inappropriate posts: If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or modkill you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host, Flamewheel, or Mig before involving the TL staff. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Reporting posts: The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions: Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Out of thread communication: It is common for mafia (and town circles if PMs are allowed) to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Please be mindful that other players may be more tech savvy than you and they may attempt impersonate members of your team or attempt to infiltrate your chat. You use these media at your own risk.
Voting rules: 1. Voting is done in this (game) thread. Please keep votes there, and only vote there. Do not PM me your vote. 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote Quatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts whenever I get the chance. 3. No conditional voting. 4. You may not vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game. 5. This game uses a plurality lynch system (player with most votes in the end wins, if there is a tie all people included in said tie get's lynched). 6. Voting is mandatory. You may (NOT) abstain.
Signups: This game is open to anyone (with preference for people that won't get banned. Signups will remain open until all slots are full.
Game-specific rules: Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will (will not) go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List.
Replacements This game uses replacements. Replacements will be made in the game until the Night 3 post. If a player is modkilled during the designated time, then they will be replaced by a player on the replacement list.
Clues: There are (no) clues.
PMs PMs are (not) allowed in this game.
Time Cycle: This game will follow a (24 hour night/48 hour) day cycle. In case I am not able to post around deadline, any votes after the 48 hour mark will not count and the game will be put on halt until the night post is up. Currently the deadline is 15:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change. Actions/votes will be accepted up to and including the posted time, but not after.
Credits: Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. ThThanks to everyone who helped balance this game. is list grows ever longer.
If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance!
ps: put a "I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting" without the quotes at the end of your /in post or you won't be inns resulting from this game.
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Fun! + Show Spoiler +
The Setup
The setup will be determined by RNG, out of 3 possible setups which are:
Setup A:
Detective / Doctor
Setup B:
Tracker / Doctor
Setup C:
Watcher / Doctor
Extra Details:
Doctor cannot heal the same person he healed last night
There are 12 players
Scum in all setups:
Will be informed of which setup is determined
Will have 1 Roleblocker
Role Names:
Vanilla Townie = CraftsDwarf
Detective = Dwarf Hammerer
Tracker = Dwarf Animal Trainer
Watcher = Dwarf Ranger
Doctor = Chief Medical Dwarf
Mafia Goon = Goblin Invader
Mafia Roleblocker = Goblin Kidnapper
Sample PMs:
Dwarf CraftsDwarf
Your are the lowest of the low!, CraftsDwarf [flavor name], you have been christened this job from when you were born!, someway or the other the leader of this fortress allowed you to have a vote!, to win the game, you must eliminate all the goblins that have infiltrated this fortress!
Goblin Invader
Somehow, with crude dwarven disguises you have infiltrated the fortress, watch out though, [flavor name], the Dwarves are out for you! eliminate them and the invaders + 6 dragons can go in the fort and steal all the booze! muahahahahah
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/in
I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting.
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/in
I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
/cohost
Am ready for "fun"
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/in
I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting.'
I love me some DF :o
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Should I keep the comic or not? feels rather large :3
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Its rather appropriate though.
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On August 05 2012 13:33 Custos Luna wrote: spoiler it?
No one would bother to click it :S
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Get rid of it there but post it down here :-)
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Yay! I've been checking literally twice a day for the past week and it's here! Thanks Bluelightz and Blazinghand for hosting.
/in I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
I really like the setup type, but I have some questions on specifics:
Can you vote for no lynch? Are the mafia allowed to not kill? Will the saver and/or savee be notified by PM of a successful doc save? If you are roleblocked, will you be notified by PM even if you are Vanilla Townie? The scum team consists of 1 roleblocker and 2 goons for a total of 3 scum? The scum team designates one player to carry out the kill? Can the scum roleblocker both carry out a kill and roleblock in the same night? If scum roleblocker both roleblocks and carries out a kill, which action(s) will show up on tracker/watcher reports?
Thanks in advance for answering.
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On August 05 2012 12:52 Bluelightz wrote: 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote Quatol.
Did Qatol copyright his name or something :p
On August 05 2012 12:52 Bluelightz wrote: 5. In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses). 7. This game uses a plurality lynch system (player with most votes in the end wins, if there is a tie all people included in said tie get's lynched).
These rules seem to be somewhat contradictory. Rule 7 seems a bit too havoc-inducing to be believed. Which rule is for realz?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Before the start of the game, editing your posts is encouraged in place of double posting-- feel free to do so up until the game begins.
I'll let bluelightz handle the questions, since some of them change the way the setup works.
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On August 05 2012 15:43 sciberbia wrote: Yay! I've been checking literally twice a day for the past week and it's here! Thanks Bluelightz and Blazinghand for hosting.
/in I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
I really like the setup type, but I have some questions on specifics:
Can you vote for no lynch? Are the mafia allowed to not kill? Will the saver and/or savee be notified by PM of a successful doc save? If you are roleblocked, will you be notified by PM even if you are Vanilla Townie? The scum team consists of 1 roleblocker and 2 goons for a total of 3 scum? The scum team designates one player to carry out the kill? Can the scum roleblocker both carry out a kill and roleblock in the same night? If scum roleblocker both roleblocks and carries out a kill, which action(s) will show up on tracker/watcher reports?
Thanks in advance for answering.
No voting for no lynches. Mafia are allowed to hold their night kill. No. All roles are notified. Yes. Yes. Tracker & Watcher show's role block action as they track role actions and not factional actions.
On August 05 2012 15:54 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 12:52 Bluelightz wrote: 2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote Quatol.
Did Qatol copyright his name or something :p Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 12:52 Bluelightz wrote: 5. In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses). 7. This game uses a plurality lynch system (player with most votes in the end wins, if there is a tie all people included in said tie get's lynched).
These rules seem to be somewhat contradictory. Rule 7 seems a bit too havoc-inducing to be believed. Which rule is for realz?
Maybe. Fixed.
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On August 05 2012 16:59 Bluelightz wrote: Tracker & Watcher show's role block action as they track role actions and not factional actions. So let's hypothetically say that I am a mafia goon and on N1 I carry out the mafia night kill on Keirathi.
If the tracker was tracking sciberbia, will he see that sciberbia visited Keirathi? If the watcher was watching Keirathi, will he see that sciberbia visited Keirathi?
On August 05 2012 12:52 Bluelightz wrote: 5. This game uses a plurality lynch system (player with most votes in the end wins, if there is a tie all people included in said tie get's lynched). It seems to me that a good town strategy would be to intentionally orchestrate a vote where several scummy suspects are all tied, in order to lynch multiple scummy players and increase town KP. Is this allowed? For example, lynching the 3 scummiest suspects on D1?
Also, if I understand correctly, it is physically impossible for town to ever No Lynch, even in a situation such as 4-person LYLO. Is this correct?
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On August 05 2012 17:28 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 16:59 Bluelightz wrote: Tracker & Watcher show's role block action as they track role actions and not factional actions. So let's hypothetically say that I am a mafia goon and on N1 I carry out the mafia night kill on Keirathi.
If the tracker was tracking sciberbia, will he see that sciberbia visited Keirathi? If the watcher was watching Keirathi, will he see that sciberbia visited Keirathi?
Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 12:52 Bluelightz wrote: 5. This game uses a plurality lynch system (player with most votes in the end wins, if there is a tie all people included in said tie get's lynched). It seems to me that a good town strategy would be to intentionally orchestrate a vote where several scummy suspects are all tied, in order to lynch multiple scummy players and increase town KP. Is this allowed? For example, lynching the 3 scummiest suspects on D1? Also, if I understand correctly, it is physically impossible for town to ever No Lynch, even in a situation such as 4-person LYLO. Is this correct?
Tracker finds nothing. Watcher finds that Keirathi was visited by sciberbia.
yeah, no no lynches, and yes you can do that, but watch out when you utterly destroy 3 town players.
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On August 05 2012 17:36 Bluelightz wrote: yes you can do that, but watch out when you utterly destroy 3 town players. Haha that's all part of the plan! + Show Spoiler +I'm mafia goon, remember?
Thanks again for answering my excessive setup questions. I can't wait to start!
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That picture looks really awesome and promising ^^ But I don't think I'll be able to make the time
/obs
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On August 05 2012 18:12 Ange777 wrote:That picture looks really awesome and promising ^^ But I don't think I'll be able to make the time /obs
Every game I play the deadline is at school time or 1 hour before I wake up
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I'll probably be away for three days next week with little to no internet access at all so it's not about the deadline timing
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
/in and I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
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On August 05 2012 22:07 prplhz wrote: /in
Ahem!
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On August 06 2012 00:14 Bluelightz wrote:Ahem! Stand up to their totalitarian system!!
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On August 06 2012 00:16 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 00:14 Bluelightz wrote:On August 05 2012 22:07 prplhz wrote: /in Ahem! Stand up to their totalitarian system!!
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Bluelightz plan.
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/in if bluelightz modkills me in his first host game I will take a video of me eating a hat.
e: assuming you are okay with me being in my final NMM at the same time. If not: /obs
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
/in
I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
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/in
I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
(I'm not sure if I'm currently banned because of Bureaucracy. But as far as I know, I can sign up until I actually know?)
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
hmm. following me around, austin? <3
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United States5684 Posts
/in
i will do everything in my power to be banned for posting too much in a game hosted by bluelightz and blazinghand
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On August 06 2012 02:18 marvellosity wrote: hmm. following me around, austin? <3 Mighta copy pasted your post.
Trying to wait to see what the outcome is, but then this started filling too quickly.
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United States5684 Posts
/out forgot about some upcoming events that will limit my mafia playing and im in AOE
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Does one have to have played DF to play in this? If you banned people for that, that would probably be my only danger of being banned. That last sentence came out surprisingly non-sensical...
Edit: Assuming that no prior knowledge of DF is needed /in, and I will not be modkilled, nor banned, nor burned at the stake, nor sexually harrased, nor shot, nor stabbed, nor force-fed Scottish food in punishment during the first game that the good Bluelightz is hosting. I reserve the right to take the listed punishments during Bluelightz' second hosted game until further notice.
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On August 06 2012 07:11 Mordanis wrote: Does one have to have played DF to play in this? If you banned people for that, that would probably be my only danger of being banned. That last sentence came out surprisingly non-sensical...
Edit: Assuming that no prior knowledge of DF is needed /in, and I will not be modkilled, nor banned, nor burned at the stake, nor sexually harrased, nor shot, nor stabbed, nor force-fed Scottish food in punishment during the first game that the good Bluelightz is hosting. I reserve the right to take the listed punishments during Bluelightz' second hosted game until further notice.
There's no possible way you can promise that.
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The "in punishment" applied to the entire thing. I also can't promise that I won't be shot for the duration of the game, but I can promise that reasonable hosts will have no reason to sexually harass nor shoot me for cheating or inactivity or anything else. That being said, if Bluelightz happens to be passing through Arizona and goes a touch insane and finds me, I also can't promise that he won't force-feed me black pudding. I can promise that it won't be for breaking any rules or inactivity.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 06 2012 08:52 Mordanis wrote: The "in punishment" applied to the entire thing. I also can't promise that I won't be shot for the duration of the game, but I can promise that reasonable hosts will have no reason to sexually harass nor shoot me for cheating or inactivity or anything else. That being said, if Bluelightz happens to be passing through Arizona and goes a touch insane and finds me, I also can't promise that he won't force-feed me black pudding. I can promise that it won't be for breaking any rules or inactivity.
Yeah baby, that feels good.
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
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I have never felt a tinge of attraction along with a massive surge of fear like this in my entire life. Is this normal? I'm confused.......
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On August 06 2012 08:56 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 08:52 Mordanis wrote: The "in punishment" applied to the entire thing. I also can't promise that I won't be shot for the duration of the game, but I can promise that reasonable hosts will have no reason to sexually harass nor shoot me for cheating or inactivity or anything else. That being said, if Bluelightz happens to be passing through Arizona and goes a touch insane and finds me, I also can't promise that he won't force-feed me black pudding. I can promise that it won't be for breaking any rules or inactivity. Yeah baby, that feels good. I put on my robe and wizard hat. Scary.
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On August 06 2012 08:56 marvellosity wrote: Yeah baby, that feels good.
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Yarr yarr hump hump.
Gonna have to /out now that bans have come down.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On August 06 2012 09:47 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 08:56 marvellosity wrote: Yeah baby, that feels good.
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Yarr yarr hump hump. Gonna have to /out now that bans have come down.
Will you be /sitout ing this, as well? or are you just /out?
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Dude man, I got shot. So /in. I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
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On August 06 2012 10:05 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 09:47 austinmcc wrote:On August 06 2012 08:56 marvellosity wrote: Yeah baby, that feels good.
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Yarr yarr hump hump. Gonna have to /out now that bans have come down. Will you be /sitout ing this, as well? or are you just /out? I will be sitting. Msged bluelightz, forgot to msg you.
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/in
I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
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/in I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting
I was going to wait for GMarshal's game until I saw slOosh. We always have the most interesting games together
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On August 06 2012 10:28 DoYouHas wrote:/in I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting I was going to wait for GMarshal's game until I saw slOosh. We always have the most interesting games together Oh my dear friend it has been quite a while. Hopefully we will recreate game #1 rather than #2 or #3 ... I think #4 was good until we both got shot N1/N2. Actually if #4 happens we can just join GM's next one so all is good and well
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And on that note I think we hit 12 players (unless you discount prplhz for fighting the system). Let's go!
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Uh lol.
I will not be banned in any game anybody is hosting. So I will not be banned in the first game Bluelightz is hosting either
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I work at a camp during the summers and have nowhere near enough time to play one of these games. Just got back ~3days ago.
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I have to /out (unless its too late) I don't feel my play would be up to snuff because of some new schedule things.
Kier would you be interested in Hydra'ing? I'd love to be half a person with you.
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Austinmcc's request approved.
Updating player list soon(tm)
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When will it start assuming it fills up today? I can play if it starts today or at the latest tomorrow.
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On August 06 2012 20:00 risk.nuke wrote: When will it start assuming it fills up today? I can play if it starts today or at the latest tomorrow.
Tommorow, but assuming school has no pressing needs such as the nefarious homework.
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On August 06 2012 20:23 risk.nuke wrote: alright, I'm /in.
-_-"
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I will not be modkilled so cute bluelightz can be happy
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
the playerlist scares me a little!
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Be afraid, be VERY afraid! Also we need a last person. Comeon don't be shy!
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
unless i'm missing something, BL has actually missed Mordanis?
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If school cooperates I will start tomorrow.
also,setup is being RNGed, hope for da best setup you want soon to be townie bros (assuming you are going to be townie o_o)
mafia has been RNGed.
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Soapmakers, soapmakers everywhere.
Oooooh, we have a prplhz in here!
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 06 2012 21:58 KharadBanar wrote: /obs
Where have you got to? You need to play some mafia
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On August 06 2012 21:15 marvellosity wrote: the playerlist scares me a little!
as it should
muahahahaha
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Oh I don't know, been outside TL Mafia for a bit, also I had a week in Croatia and so forth. As for joining a game right now, it's very hard for me to follow more than one game at a time, and I want to follow this one because Dwarf Fortress (and blzinghand's flavor texts )
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 06 2012 22:06 KharadBanar wrote:Oh I don't know, been outside TL Mafia for a bit, also I had a week in Croatia and so forth. As for joining a game right now, it's very hard for me to follow more than one game at a time, and I want to follow this one because Dwarf Fortress (and blzinghand's flavor texts )
I take it that it was just a moment of negligence that you forgot to mention you wanted to follow your dear VI buddies HiroPro and marvellosity.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 06 2012 22:04 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 21:15 marvellosity wrote: the playerlist scares me a little! as it should muahahahaha
except you
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On August 06 2012 22:06 HiroPro wrote: Dat smurf
smurf? wat's a smurf?
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On August 06 2012 22:10 Custos Luna wrote:smurf? wat's a smurf?
Troll's be about!
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On August 06 2012 22:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 22:06 KharadBanar wrote:Oh I don't know, been outside TL Mafia for a bit, also I had a week in Croatia and so forth. As for joining a game right now, it's very hard for me to follow more than one game at a time, and I want to follow this one because Dwarf Fortress (and blzinghand's flavor texts ) I take it that it was just a moment of negligence that you forgot to mention you wanted to follow your dear VI buddies HiroPro and marvellosity.
You missed our reunion in Bastard 2
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 06 2012 23:11 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 22:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 06 2012 22:06 KharadBanar wrote:Oh I don't know, been outside TL Mafia for a bit, also I had a week in Croatia and so forth. As for joining a game right now, it's very hard for me to follow more than one game at a time, and I want to follow this one because Dwarf Fortress (and blzinghand's flavor texts ) I take it that it was just a moment of negligence that you forgot to mention you wanted to follow your dear VI buddies HiroPro and marvellosity. You missed our reunion in Bastard 2
yeah, I know >.<
I realised too late that it had hordes of VIers in it :<
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On August 06 2012 23:13 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 23:11 HiroPro wrote:On August 06 2012 22:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 06 2012 22:06 KharadBanar wrote:Oh I don't know, been outside TL Mafia for a bit, also I had a week in Croatia and so forth. As for joining a game right now, it's very hard for me to follow more than one game at a time, and I want to follow this one because Dwarf Fortress (and blzinghand's flavor texts ) I take it that it was just a moment of negligence that you forgot to mention you wanted to follow your dear VI buddies HiroPro and marvellosity. You missed our reunion in Bastard 2 yeah, I know >.< I realised too late that it had hordes of VIers in it :< Oh my gawd you guys are like classifying dynasties by Newbie games o_o. Though Student Mafia is a thing to remember!
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Back in MY day that didn't HAVE newbie mafia.
Had to walk uphill both ways 7 miles in the snow barefoot!
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United States5684 Posts
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On August 06 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: Back in MY day that didn't HAVE newbie mafia.
Had to walk uphill both ways 7 miles in the snow barefoot! Wait, but this is your first game on TL, right????? How can you have played a game of mafia with single digit post count??? I'm sooo confused ...............
^^
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On August 07 2012 03:52 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: Back in MY day that didn't HAVE newbie mafia.
Had to walk uphill both ways 7 miles in the snow barefoot! Wait, but this is your first game on TL, right????? How can you have played a game of mafia with single digit post count??? I'm sooo confused ............... ^^
He's actually got such an old account that his post count got so high, it swung around and became negative again, then climbed its way back up to 6. It's not easy work, being an ancient veteran with a long history and meta!
I'm going to reveal whose smurf he is, but don't open this spoiler unless you're an observer or not playing, okay?
+ Show Spoiler [CL is the smurf of... (observers only)] +
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Nah, he's actually just a huge lurker. If he makes more than 1 post this game, we lynch him.
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On August 07 2012 03:57 HiroPro wrote: Nah, he's actually just a huge lurker. If he makes more than 1 post this game, we lynch him.
Npnp, I find scum in that one post.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Will the deadline stay at 17:00 CEST as it is in the OP? Great to have it at such an easy time for EU
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pretty sure custos luna is biz markie (because of the anagram) but i don't know how much that helps us
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ಠ╭╮ಠ
Try again.
+ Show Spoiler +Hint: My sig is a clue to my identity. Oh, but you must be clever to know.
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Shouldn't your name be Custos Lunae?
Edit: Unless you're name is referring to the group that protects the moon, in which case I would think it should be Custodes Lunae.
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Luna... Princess Luna!!! Who likes ponies. GMARSHAL!!
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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But U Thant is long gone and Grigori Perelman doesn't like to play forum mafia and who else could your signature be pointing to? I feel like you're just messing with us.
You gonna tell us who you are after the game?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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lol, we all know what happened.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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United States22154 Posts
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Iceland22590 Posts
oh damn this filled up fast, while I was drunk.
Someone poke me on #tlmafia next time a mini goes up
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Schedule is
10 minutes before day 1 post PMs go out.
done :D <3 glhf
also obs qts are going to be sent out now.
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Day 1
It was not an easy year for the Dwarves of LiquidTomb. It rarely is, actually, but this one was particularly rough. After the great flood which washed away Urist McUrist, the fortress was left without its Expedition Leader and Mayor. Who could possibly step into the gap left by this great leader? Who could take up his labors and his mantle and lead the dwarves to greatness? Why, none other than Qatol! A legendary Cheese Maker, Qatol was sure to guide us through the darkness and bring us to the nicer, warming darkness of our dwarven beds. Definitely not to the light, though, since as dwarves you never go above ground and seeing bright light would only cause vomiting and nausea. For many long days that Slate, all seemed well. And then, horror! Qatol was found dead! And even worse, it was Incognito whose hand held the knife! He struck down both GreyMist before being overwhelmed and unmasked as-- gasp-- a GOBLIN in disguise! In their horror, the Fortress went insane! iGrok, in his madness, ran to a murky pool for a drink-- the poor, poor fool was quickly extinguished, dragged underwater and wrestled to death. In the confusion, Zona managed to make her escape. Finally, things died down as the dwarves realized their only choice: now the fort bands together. They must find the other goblins, or die trying. Each day, hammer a dwarf before bed. Continue until there are no goblins. An easy, dwarflike solution for a dwarflike people.
This should be Fun.
Qatol the legendary Cheese Maker has been struck down! Incognito the incognito goblin spy has been Hammered! GreyMist died of goblinite poisoning! iGrok the Novice Fish Cleaner cancels Drink: Interrupted by Carp. Zona the Angelic Acolyte has ascended the lunar staircase!
The deadline is in 48 hours at 15:00 GMT (+00:00). The person with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Alright, why don't you tell us how you're gonna avoid everyone thinking you're scum this game then
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
hahaha, well that's fair enough I guess. If you want to have a long version of my policythoughts, here it comes. DO NOT LURK, or I will find a way to kick you in the butt. LIES DO NOT HELP (at least in 99% of cases) and therefore don't even think about it
Since it's just us two right now, what about your preferences?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I'm too lazy to talk about policy unless it particularly matters. I was kinda hoping you were gonna give me something I could hold you to going forwards ^^
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Laziness? Blasphemous! What has happened to the idea of our fortunes rising and falling together? Back in all seriousness I am not too fond of doing too much policytalk either hence my first post. Will be some time until US gets to the thread I guess.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
yeah, I need someone to say something dumb so I can try to be useful or something.
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Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf, so I'll try my utmost to root out this nasty Goblin infiltration, protect our fortress's stock of booze, and avenge our fallen leaders: Qatol and UristMcUrist! As per usual, I hope to convince you all of my righteous alignment by way of some successful scumhunting. Let's hammer us some goblins!
I have 2 goals for this post: 1) Share some (IMO mildly helpful) information and opinions 2) More importantly, get discussion started as quickly as possible
everything you want to know about sciberbia+ Show Spoiler +I will amicably respond to either 'sciberbia' or 'scib'. TL Mafia History =========================================================================================== Lost as Vanilla Townie in Newbie Mini XIVLost as Vanilla Townie in Newbie Mini XVLost as Vanilla Townie in Newbie Mini XVIILost as Vanilla Townie in Newbie Mini XIXWon as Mason in Can't Believe It's Not Themed MiniI work from roughly 11AM to 6PM (EDT) on weekdays. But I'm often busy until 9PM. The vast majority of time that I spend on the game (on weekdays) will be between 9PM and 3AM (EDT). Unfortunately, I'll be asleep in the hours leading up to deadlines, but I'll make an effort to check the thread just before 11 in case I need to switch my vote for whatever reason. Who I've played with before: Old faces: Keirathi, Shiaopi, marvellosity, Mordanis New faces: HiroPro, Custos Luna, prplhz, slOosh, Forumite, DoYouHas, risk.nuke
I see that Shiaopi is discouraging policy talk, but I contend that policy talk is the best (only?) way to get meaningful discussion started, and I don't think this stuff is that obvious, so here we go: Thoughts on roleclaims+ Show Spoiler +Vanilla TowniesPlease do not roleclaim without a very good reason. DoctorAs long as there is more than one Goblin alive, I don't think it's wise to spare an otherwise scummy candidate just because they roleclaim doc. We essentially have 2 different policy options: A) If our top suspect roleclaims doc, we spare them unless there is a doc cc (counterclaim) + Show Spoiler + The problem with this policy is that a mafia who is about to be lynched has nothing to lose (and a lot to gain) from fakeclaiming doc. Our real doc will be forced to cc, and will surely be subsequently NK'd. So, this policy would essentially force our doc to out himself before we could even lynch 1 mafia.
The one scenario where this policy is useful is the scenario where we are about to lynch our real doc. Doc will claim, and mafia will almost surely not cc. We will hastily lynch somebody else (probably a mislynch), and our doc will die that night anyway. So, this policy maybe saves us 1 ML in the case where we are about to lynch our doc.
IMO, the benefits don't outweigh the costs, and this is not a good policy.
B) We lynch our top suspect even if they roleclaim doc -- don't wait for a cc + Show Spoiler + I like this policy much better. Under this policy, mafia have no prospect of worming their way out of a lynch by fakeclaiming doc. The only downside is that we may in fact ML on our real doc, but that is a risk that I'm willing to take.
In summary: I think policy B is much better than policy A. I will not unvote a scummy candidate just because he is claiming doc. I will not even ask for counterclaims. I believe this to be the best policy for this setup, and suggest that you all adhere to it as well. Cop/Tracker/WatcherDepending on the situations with the doc and the scum RB'r, I might be willing to unvote an otherwise scummy candidate if they roleclaim cop/tracker/watcher, depending on the plausibility of the claim. I think that the policy of waiting for a cc is better in this case for a few reasons: 1) We can avoid mislynching on our cop/tracker/watcher. 2) Not only can we avoid the mislynch on a blue, but cop/tracker/watcher can be kept alive during night phases by the doc. So, we can get some more reports (if RB'r is dead). 3) If we are about to lynch a mafia and they have a good cop/tracker/watcher fakeclaim ready, this would force our real cop/tracker/watcher to out himself, which really isn't the end of the world so long as we have a doc alive. Letting mafia know the identity of our cop/tracker/watcher is not nearly as bad as letting mafia know the identity of our doc. In summary: If cop/tracker/watcher is about to be lynched, I think they should claim. If the claim makes sense, I'd possibly be willing to leave them alive (unless there is a counterclaim of course). How many people should we aim to lynch each day?+ Show Spoiler +This game uses a plurality lynch system with a twist: if multiple players are tied with the highest number of votes, then all players included in said tie are lynched. This leaves open the possibility for us to intentionally create a tie amongst several candidates in order to lynch all of them and increase our KP. I have thought about this a LOT over the past couple days and have come to the following conclusions: 1) Trying to lynch 3 or more players on the same day is usually a very bad idea + Show Spoiler +reasoning is somewhat involved... not gonna type it all out unless someone is interested 2) There are situations where it is clearly in our best interest to lynch 2 people in one day + Show Spoiler + Here are two clear examples to prove my point. So don't close your mind to the possibility.
Example #1: 3 VT's and 1 goon remain This is MYLO, and we would have roughly a 25% chance of winning the game if we lynch one person.
It is clearly better to lynch 2 people in this situation. This increases our odds to 50%. You might ask how this would be accomplished. Well, label the four remaining players A, B, C, and D. Assume that the consensus opinion is that A and B are most likely town and C and D are most likely mafia (due to either blue information or scumreads). Now voting goes as follows: A votes for C B votes for D C votes for D D votes for C
Note that neither C nor D can prevent their own lynch, so they might as well take the other scummy player down with them. Town gets off 2 lynches and has at least a 50% chance of winning.
Example #2: 6 VT's and 1 goon remain Through conventional lynching methods, town can afford exactly 2 mislynches. The first mislynch and subsequent NK would bring us down to 4 VT's and 1 goon. The 2nd mislynch and subsequent NK would bring us down to 2 VT's and 1 goon. We can afford two mislynches and no more.
However, if we arrange a lynch on 2 people on the first day, we can afford a total of 3 mislynches. Even if both people we lynch on the first day turn out to be town, the mafia NK will bring us down to 3 VT's and 1 goon. As detailed above, we can still lynch 2 more people, 1 of which may be a mislynch. So in total, we get off 4 lynches in the worst-case scenario.
Lynching two people at a time lets us lynch one extra person in this scenario, and is clearly beneficial.
3) We should only aim to lynch one person on D1 + Show Spoiler + This is for two major reasons.
1) It is generally acknowledged that D1 reads are least reliable. It seems a bit overly ambitious to make two lynches after only 48 hours of scumhunting. 2) In order for a double-lynch to be successfully orchestrated, absolutely everybody must agree that it is in our best interest. I can't see this happening today. Therefore, I think we would just waste a lot of valuable time arguing about this policy, and any naysayers would sabotage the plan in the end anyway.
So yea, let's just lynch 1 person today.
Wow that was long.
Unfortunately, I'm already late for work, so I won't be posting much (if at all) for the next 8-10 hours. I urge everyone to start making meaningful posts ASAP because D1 always feels too short.
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I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
Do Scum decide on their own who among them carries out the nightkill?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
Do Scum decide on their own who among them carries out the nightkill?
I suppose one possible advantage of a Watcher over a DT is that a Watcher can watch one person and has 2 chances (kill/roleblock) to catch someone visiting them.
Relatedly, and it should go without saying but sometimes I see people not adhere to this, everyone must let town know when they've been roleblocked.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@scib:
I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches. In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1 wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK. Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side?
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On August 08 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote: Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf, so I'll try my utmost to root out this nasty Goblin infiltration, protect our fortress's stock of booze, and avenge our fallen leaders: Qatol and UristMcUrist! As per usual, I hope to convince you all of my righteous alignment by way of some successful scumhunting. Let's hammer us some goblins! Hear this man! Our first order of business is to dam the river so it dries up, to avenge the murder of Urist McUrist! Then we must desecrate the rotting corpse of Incognito, the murderer of Qatol!
Then what?
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On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
Do Scum decide on their own who among them carries out the nightkill? yes.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 08 2012 00:50 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
Do Scum decide on their own who among them carries out the nightkill? I suppose one possible advantage of a Watcher over a DT is that a Watcher can watch one person and has 2 chances (kill/roleblock) to catch someone visiting them. Relatedly, and it should go without saying but sometimes I see people not adhere to this, everyone must let town know when they've been roleblocked.
hum, Can mafia roleblocker roleblock and kill, or must the duties be separated?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
EBWOP:
Just saw I got ninja'ed:
On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
Do Scum decide on their own who among them carries out the nightkill?
What makes you think so?
Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch.
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Mornin' everyone! 10 am start is going to be weird. I'll have to work hard to be around early enough.
I'm really looking forward to a bit of the dwarf fortress staple -- !!FUN!!
@ShiaoPi: The point is, that after the first 2 mislynches it puts you in LYLO. Then you can vote 2 people again, and as long as 1 of the two people you vote that last day is scum, you win.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Ah so another doublelynch instead of a single one. Makes sense now.
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On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
I agree that watcher seems like weaker version of cop. Tracker seems pretty useless for everything except confirming our doc IMO. I'm not expecting mafia to be all that liberal with their RB'r.
On August 08 2012 00:50 marvellosity wrote: Relatedly, and it should go without saying but sometimes I see people not adhere to this, everyone must let town know when they've been roleblocked.
100% agree that townies should always claim roleblocks in this setup.
On August 08 2012 00:51 ShiaoPi wrote: @scib:
I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches. In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1 wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK. Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side?
Ah but shiaopi you must build upon what you have learned. After a double mislynch you are correct that it would be 4 vs 1. Then after the NK, it would be 3 vs 1. Then, borrowing the idea from Example #1, we can lynch 2 people in that situation, not just 1, for a total of 4 total lynches, not 3.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 08 2012 01:00 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
I agree that watcher seems like weaker version of cop. Tracker seems pretty useless for everything except confirming our doc IMO. I'm not expecting mafia to be all that liberal with their RB'r.
What do you mean by this?
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On August 08 2012 01:01 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:00 sciberbia wrote:On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
I agree that watcher seems like weaker version of cop. Tracker seems pretty useless for everything except confirming our doc IMO. I'm not expecting mafia to be all that liberal with their RB'r. What do you mean by this?
Well I don't really want to get into scum strategy, but what I meant is that if there is a tracker/watcher about, I'm expecting scum to be extremely careful about actually using their RB at all.
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On August 08 2012 00:55 ShiaoPi wrote:EBWOP: Just saw I got ninja'ed: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
Do Scum decide on their own who among them carries out the nightkill? What makes you think so? Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch. Tracker, if checking someone with a nightpower and the target doesn´t die or claim being roleblocked, then the person he tracked must be the doctor. I don´t know if there´s any advantage to that though. Perhaps he can clear himself by successfully identifying the doctor in a LYLO-situation.
I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 08 2012 01:08 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:01 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 01:00 sciberbia wrote:On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: What´s the point of watcher and tracker? DT is easy, check someone you think is scum. Watcher and Tracker just seem like weaker versions of a DT, with many false positive results. Are there any advantages?
I agree that watcher seems like weaker version of cop. Tracker seems pretty useless for everything except confirming our doc IMO. I'm not expecting mafia to be all that liberal with their RB'r. What do you mean by this? Well I don't really want to get into scum strategy, but what I meant is that if there is a tracker/watcher about, I'm expecting scum to be extremely careful about actually using their RB at all.
Huh, interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that it might be a correct play to withold RB. In cop setup it makes little sense to withold RB because it's not traceable, but the same isn't true for watcher/tracker. But by not using it they're losing the chance to RB either the medic or the tracker/watcher.
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Sciberbia: any reason that 6v1 and 3v1 are the only places double lynch could work, or were those just the only 2 examples you mentions but there are in fact other ones?
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On August 08 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote: Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf,
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Thoughts on roleclaims: Vanilla Townies Please do not roleclaim without a very good reason.
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On August 08 2012 01:33 Keirathi wrote: Sciberbia: any reason that 6v1 and 3v1 are the only places double lynch could work, or were those just the only 2 examples you mentions but there are in fact other ones? I am quite sure that there are other situations in which it is beneficial to double-lynch. I just used those two examples because there is very clearly an upside and no downside.
In a perfect, idealized world, I don't think double-lynch can ever actually hurt (unless it puts us in situation where scum can pull some voting shenanigans and end the game). However this is not a perfect world, I don't think the extra bickering over policy is worth some slight mathematical benefits, one of the reasons I'm not advocating a double-lynch today.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 08 2012 01:40 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote: Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf,
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Thoughts on roleclaims: Vanilla Townies Please do not roleclaim without a very good reason.
claiming alignment and claiming role are not the same thing
I was more interested in the "truthfully" part of it.
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Hi everyone,
I agree with scib that a double lynch today would not be ideal, too little information. However, I think we should consider using double lynches on day2-3 to weed out lurkers quickly. It feels like in all my past games there has been at least 1 mafia lurking among them but by the time you get to day3-4 people are so able to create massive convincing cases against active players that you will never get a lynch on them until mylo or lylo.
For those of you who haven't played with me before, my games are easy to find as this is pretty much the only part of TL I post in.
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On August 08 2012 01:12 ShiaoPi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger.
On Double-lynching: I´m opposed to double-lynching because of the danger of gobbos manipulating the vote, either to save their buddy or to kill two town at once. I´m also opposed to it because of the ease of blending in when the discussion is about a package of 2 people dying, when there are two candidates players can just say "Meh, I don´t really want to lynch B but since it´s the only way to get you all to agree on lynching A, I guess we´ll lynch both together". I will not agree to double-lynching unless there´s a VERY good reason to double-lynch. I will vote to hammer anyone who creates a double-lynch without the second candidate flipping gobbo.
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I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum.
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CVSTO LVNA PRO SVVS ABVTOR GENITIVI PROVOCO ET AVT NOMEN SVVS MVTAVERIT AVT DABO SENSVS MEVS EI
+ Show Spoiler [Translation] +For his abuse of the genitive I am calling out Custo Luna, and he must either change his name or I will vote for him. + Show Spoiler +Not really, this was just a fun may to make my 4 years of latin worthwhile, and for anyone who's taken latin: Come on, Luna is a first declension noun. Easiest one to learn, and CL has it wrong in his name (Unless his name is just supposed to be two unrelated nouns, like JingleHell, VisceraEyes, and if you allow one word to be an adjective, BlazingHand, BloodyCobbler, etc, etc, etc.). This is therefore a joke.
Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him?
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Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present.
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On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:CVSTO LVNA PRO SVVS ABVTOR GENITIVI PROVOCO ET AVT NOMEN SVVS MVTAVERIT AVT DABO SENSVS MEVS EI + Show Spoiler [Translation] +For his abuse of the genitive I am calling out Custo Luna, and he must either change his name or I will vote for him. + Show Spoiler +Not really, this was just a fun may to make my 4 years of latin worthwhile, and for anyone who's taken latin: Come on, Luna is a first declension noun. Easiest one to learn, and CL has it wrong in his name (Unless his name is just supposed to be two unrelated nouns, like JingleHell, VisceraEyes, and if you allow one word to be an adjective, BlazingHand, BloodyCobbler, etc, etc, etc.). This is therefore a joke. Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him?
Why does it not make sense? Saying that he's a dwarf has nothing to do with claiming VT.
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On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:CVSTO LVNA PRO SVVS ABVTOR GENITIVI PROVOCO ET AVT NOMEN SVVS MVTAVERIT AVT DABO SENSVS MEVS EI + Show Spoiler [Translation] +For his abuse of the genitive I am calling out Custo Luna, and he must either change his name or I will vote for him. + Show Spoiler +Not really, this was just a fun may to make my 4 years of latin worthwhile, and for anyone who's taken latin: Come on, Luna is a first declension noun. Easiest one to learn, and CL has it wrong in his name (Unless his name is just supposed to be two unrelated nouns, like JingleHell, VisceraEyes, and if you allow one word to be an adjective, BlazingHand, BloodyCobbler, etc, etc, etc.). This is therefore a joke. Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him?
I took 6 years of Latin, but it's been 5 years since I took my last class D= you should petition the mods to change it for me
Mostly just poking for now, I'm at work and reading when I can, so I'm making note of things I see.
To everyone: stop discussing the possibilities of a D1 double lynch when you have 0 candidates. There is no point to posit the idea of killing 2 when there isn't even 1 on the table.
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He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town?
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On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town?
-_- I think you need to reconsider your own logic.
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I'm more than willing to, but I don't see any reason to claim town unless you're trying to come off as VT. If you give me a reason, I'll gladly reconsider if it makes sense. There's no reason to get grumpy ^^
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On August 08 2012 04:43 Mordanis wrote: I'm more than willing to, but I don't see any reason to claim town unless you're trying to come off as VT. If you give me a reason, I'll gladly reconsider if it makes sense. There's no reason to get grumpy ^^
lol, I'm not grumpy, just perplexed. Unless they're claiming something, everyone wants to be perceived as VT lol. Not to mention the fact that saying "i'm town" is pretty much a fluff statement - it doesn't mean anything.
What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum?
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On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. Why would you want to guarantee one of our only 2 blue roles' death? Tracker might be "fairly useless", but its certainly more useful alive than dead.
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Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming.
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On August 08 2012 05:15 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. Why would you want to guarantee one of our only 2 blue roles' death? Tracker might be "fairly useless", but its certainly more useful alive than dead.
I'd rather have a confirmed town than a useless blue. And I'm not saying that they should claim now, just that saying that if someone is tracker they should strongly consider claiming at a crucial point (Mylo would be good) rather than waiting endlessly for a useful report that they probably won't get.
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Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
EBWOP: @prphlz: If you like to listen to Forumite, I am apparently
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On August 08 2012 05:39 ShiaoPi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming.
Sure, they can fakeclaim. But it's better odds to lynch between the 2 claims than in general.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
So your scenario would not differ much from a standard claim and therefore it should be examined and then judged based on the situation and not just accepted (like child claim would be), would be too easy for scum then. Too bad I thought you found a way to circumvent the gamerules to modconfirm a tracker
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On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. You mean claim, and if counterclaimed (by scum or the real tracker) we kill them both?
I don´t think it´s a good plan. A Tracker is not as good as a DT, but he´s not useless. An innocent child will just get killed if he claims D1. The Tracker can track the one doing the nightkill and the roleblocker, and know if his target is a Doc (no roleblock claim and survives), so basically a DT that misses the one scum that does nothing.
Can scum send the roleblocker to perform the nightkill AND roleblock even when there are other goblins alive, thereby reducing the number of people at risk of being Tracked? (Only usefull in a Tracker+Doc setup, but still)
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Hi, You should ofcourse claim if you're roleblocked. It's just 100x better to claim in 99% of all scenarios so just do it.
Forumite hit spot on regarding double-lynches and represent my feelings to the letter.
It's playing with fire and scum will make us burn ourselves if they can. Also from experience people get lazy in their accusations and pushes and the discussion will be far worse. Furthermore the longer the game goes the more it generally favors town. We shouldn't aim to shorten it. Especially in this setup where we have a medic.
About using the tracker to claim for effect of innocent child. This will as you say only be valid in the early days before scum might try to counterclaim. While the benefit of this plan is that it will give us a confirmed town (or less likely trade for a mafia) which the mafia might not be able to straight of kill because of a doctor. (If they try we might even get some saves) I think the benefits of having an investigative role is better. But maybe it's just me assuming stuff. I'll try to think about this when I'm not exausted from work.
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On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz!
ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts.
don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it.
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On August 08 2012 06:03 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. You mean claim, and if counterclaimed (by scum or the real tracker) we kill them both? I don´t think it´s a good plan. A Tracker is not as good as a DT, but he´s not useless. An innocent child will just get killed if he claims D1. The Tracker can track the one doing the nightkill and the roleblocker, and know if his target is a Doc (no roleblock claim and survives), so basically a DT that misses the one scum that does nothing. Can scum send the roleblocker to perform the nightkill AND roleblock even when there are other goblins alive, thereby reducing the number of people at risk of being Tracked? (Only usefull in a Tracker+Doc setup, but still)
Tracker doesn't track night kills. And if it's a setup with a tracker, there's a good chance scum would hold their RBs.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
But stilll there is no need for him to claim. Just with his presence it would let our doc work much easier as scum cannot do too many RB's with his potential check. Do not see the need to lynch both claimers, just evaluate on the claims independently,I dislike both options , whether it is giving it a freepass or lynching.
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Bluelightz, what's the point of having adesignated mafia killer when it's completely uneffected by town roles?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I must be missing the bit where it says Tracker/Watcher don't see NK actions. where does it say that?
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On August 08 2012 06:21 ShiaoPi wrote: But stilll there is no need for him to claim. Just with his presence it would let our doc work much easier as scum cannot do too many RB's with his potential check. Do not see the need to lynch both claimers, just evaluate on the claims independently,I dislike both options , whether it is giving it a freepass or lynching. If the tracker claimes he'll be absorbing roleblocks untill he dies.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
On August 05 2012 16:59 Bluelightz wrote:
Tracker & Watcher show's role block action as they track role actions and not factional actions.
Since NK is factional, tracker/watcher won't see it
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
that's fucking ridiculous. so you have one setup - cop, which is already by far the most powerful
then you neuter the other two setups completely by denying watcher/tracker of like 90% of their power.
wtf is that about.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@risk: It's more the general concept of Hiro to use a tracker claim as means of confirming town that I am against, not against claiming in general, but scum can easily counterclaim so it won't work that way.
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On August 08 2012 06:28 ShiaoPi wrote: @risk: It's more the general concept of Hiro to use a tracker claim as means of confirming town that I am against, not against claiming in general, but scum can easily counterclaim so it won't work that way. Scum most likely won't claim if he does it day 1 or 2.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
On the other hand I could see it working out for the better if he claims as early as you suggest. He would leave scum fishing for the doc between the other townies.
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On August 08 2012 06:15 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:03 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. You mean claim, and if counterclaimed (by scum or the real tracker) we kill them both? I don´t think it´s a good plan. A Tracker is not as good as a DT, but he´s not useless. An innocent child will just get killed if he claims D1. The Tracker can track the one doing the nightkill and the roleblocker, and know if his target is a Doc (no roleblock claim and survives), so basically a DT that misses the one scum that does nothing. Can scum send the roleblocker to perform the nightkill AND roleblock even when there are other goblins alive, thereby reducing the number of people at risk of being Tracked? (Only usefull in a Tracker+Doc setup, but still) Tracker doesn't track night kills. And if it's a setup with a tracker, there's a good chance scum would hold their RBs. How do you know the Tracker doesn´t track scum nightkills?
On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below:
On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about.
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Nevermind about Tracker.
I agree with marvellosity, not tracking nightkills make the Tracker and Watcher too weak.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@Forumite: check the first page and the post risk linked, it's right there. Factional actions don't get tracked/watched.
On your accusation (or rather opinion, it feels rather weak to me): I wanted to get started, so I posted, probably should have proofread it to avoid misunderstandings like this one. I am not against shutting down policytalk completely, I have already done some of it myslef by now. I was more stating the intent to not go overboard with it, since scumhunting is our priority. As you are doing it already, looks like my wish was granted, although on the wrong target
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Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do?
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watcher tracks night kills - look at sciberbia's question right after that.
Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Just saw that as well. Seems like watcher has some higher chance to get a check in
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On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? Would you accept "Create discussion"?
My assumptions on Tracker and Watcher was that they can track/watch for the nightkill. That would still give them false positive results from the Doctor, but leave 2 scum who they can find, not as many as the DT but decent. If they can´t see the nightkill being delivered then the roles are much weaker, so it came as a bit of a shock.
On ShiaoPi, I wanted to see if my scumsenses were working after my break with a quick read. No, I´m not convinced he´s scum.
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Just got home and I'm about to reread and form some preliminary reads. Just wanted to clear some things up about the setup (you guys would do well to read my pregame posts):
On August 08 2012 00:53 marvellosity wrote: hum, Can mafia roleblocker roleblock and kill, or must the duties be separated?
On August 08 2012 06:03 Forumite wrote: Can scum send the roleblocker to perform the nightkill AND roleblock even when there are other goblins alive, thereby reducing the number of people at risk of being Tracked?
The roleblocker is allowed to both RB and NK in the same night. See here: + Show Spoiler +On August 05 2012 16:59 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 15:43 sciberbia wrote:
... Can the scum roleblocker both carry out a kill and roleblock in the same night? ...
... Yes. ...
However, keep in mind that tracker cannot track night kills.
On August 08 2012 06:24 risk.nuke wrote: Bluelightz, what's the point of having adesignated mafia killer when it's completely uneffected by town roles?
If the watcher is watching the person who dies, the watcher will know who killed him. See here:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2012 17:36 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 17:28 sciberbia wrote:On August 05 2012 16:59 Bluelightz wrote: Tracker & Watcher show's role block action as they track role actions and not factional actions. So let's hypothetically say that I am a mafia goon and on N1 I carry out the mafia night kill on Keirathi.
If the tracker was tracking sciberbia, will he see that sciberbia visited Keirathi? If the watcher was watching Keirathi, will he see that sciberbia visited Keirathi?
Tracker finds nothing. Watcher finds that Keirathi was visited by sciberbia.
On August 08 2012 06:15 HiroPro wrote: Tracker doesn't track night kills. And if it's a setup with a tracker, there's a good chance scum would hold their RBs. On August 08 2012 06:28 marvellosity wrote: that's fucking ridiculous. so you have one setup - cop, which is already by far the most powerful
then you neuter the other two setups completely by denying watcher/tracker of like 90% of their power.
wtf is that about.
Yes, tracker is almost laughably bad. Cop >>> watcher >>> tracker. But we're stuck with whatever we've got.
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Agh. Clarifying nao. Watcher tracks everything that visits his target, while tracker tracks role actions. Yes one person can both rb/kill in 1 night
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Watcher tracks and Tracker watches. got it
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On August 08 2012 08:28 Bluelightz wrote: Agh. Clarifying nao. Watcher tracks everything that visits his target, while tracker tracks role actions. Yes one person can both rb/kill in 1 night Okey, I'm still not sure but I'm starting to lean that if we have a tracker (which we probably don't have if we're lucky) he should claim. At first I thought hiros suggestion was dumb as crap but thinking about it more and including things that hiro probably didn't even realise I'm starting to feel this might be the best action. I think he should claim Day 3 or preferably during night 2. Just before the daypost. (He could put some effort into making sure he'll be around for that time) but otherwise day 3 will be fine.
thoughts?
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So I was thinking through how a double-lynch would actually play out (because I instinctively disagreed with forumite that we should avoid them) and here is where I got. By attempting to create a double lynch we would actually be taking the power from the hands of the lynchers and putting it in the hands of those being lynched. The only situation where it would work as intended would be if both players (A & B) vote for one another and don't move that vote. That is unrealistic, it is much more likely that either A or B or both would withhold their vote, making the effort of getting even votes on both of them based more on last second vote placement at the deadline and less about careful planning. -
The two things that have caught my attention so far are prplz first post + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? He posts without reading, isn't relevant, sarcastic, and thumbs his nose at town. This just rubs me the wrong way.
and Costos Luna's first two posts are pointing out a contradiction that isn't a contradiction and telling people to stop talking about a day1 double lynch, which no one was doing. -
slOosh! you are the only absent member of our town, speak up! -
P.S. Could someone explain the innocent child thing to me? I looked up the term on mafiascumwiki and it didn't seem to apply to this game.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 08 2012 08:38 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 08:28 Bluelightz wrote: Agh. Clarifying nao. Watcher tracks everything that visits his target, while tracker tracks role actions. Yes one person can both rb/kill in 1 night Okey, I'm still not sure but I'm starting to lean that if we have a tracker (which we probably don't have if we're lucky) he should claim. At first I thought hiros suggestion was dumb as crap but thinking about it more and including things that hiro probably didn't even realise I'm starting to feel this might be the best action. I think he should claim Day 3 or preferably during night 2. Just before the daypost. (He could put some effort into making sure he'll be around for that time) but otherwise day 3 will be fine. thoughts?
I think postulating about a setup we only have 1/3 of the time with various unknown lynches/nightkills in the way is quite an unproductive use of thread space. Even in your post you say "for things without Hiro realises" without expanding upon them. Looks like crap designed to spam up the thread.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
EBWOP: "for things that hiro doesn't even realise"
not sure how i got that one so far off
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On August 08 2012 08:40 DoYouHas wrote: P.S. Could someone explain the innocent child thing to me? I looked up the term on mafiascumwiki and it didn't seem to apply to this game. @DoYouHas An innocent child is a mod-confirmed townie with no special powers.
HiroPro pointed out that (a potentially existent) tracker is a rather useless blue as far as actual night abilities go. However, HiroPro's idea was to essentially turn tracker into an Innocent child by having tracker claim today.
If the tracker were to claim today, mafia would be very unlikely to counterclaim, and we would essentially have a confirmed townie with no special powers (seeing as he would be a RB-magnet), hence the term innocent child.
I'm fairly indifferent about this idea myself. I agree with marv's recent sentiments that we are wasting too much time talking about a potentially existent tracker, and it's time to start scumhunting.
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On August 08 2012 08:40 DoYouHas wrote: P.S. Could someone explain the innocent child thing to me? I looked up the term on mafiascumwiki and it didn't seem to apply to this game. I think the general idea is that the watcher/tracker could claim early, and by virtue of scum generally not want to trade 1-for-1 by counterclaiming, that the watcher/tracker could be confirmed town for the rest of their time alive.
I don't feel like it was a particularly good proposal though. If the watcher/tracker claims early, now either his lifespan is limited, or he will be roleblocked for eternity. As as "useless" as they might be, they are always more useful alive and getting results than dead or getting perma-blocked.
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On innocent child: Maybe claim if we have the Tracker, but not D1. Maybe D2 or D3.
@sciberbia Fair enough, we´ve talked too much about the innocent child and need to scumhunt. Any tips on where to start? Also, did you write your first post with all the policy in advance?
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On August 08 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote: @sciberbia Fair enough, we´ve talked too much about the innocent child and need to scumhunt. Any tips on where to start? Also, did you write your first post with all the policy in advance? @Forumite Yes, I have some tips on where to start. See my next post.
And no, I didn't start actually writing my first post until I read my role PM. But I've been thinking a lot about the setup ever since I /in'd, and I outlined everything I wanted to say on some scratch paper (I was planning on making the same post regardless of my role). I didn't want to be too late for work this morning lol.
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OK I've made brief notes on everybody. Here are the people I find sketchiest so far:
Shiaopi
On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
I agree with Forumite that this post seems off. Shiaopi is no vet, yet he starts off the thread with this bravado, confidence, and authority. It just doesn't seem to fit with the more reserved Shiaopi I remember from NMM XIV. I see this post as a conscious attempt to look bold, which fits in more with scum goals than town goals.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:39 ShiaoPi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 06:28 ShiaoPi wrote: @risk: It's more the general concept of Hiro to use a tracker claim as means of confirming town that I am against, not against claiming in general, but scum can easily counterclaim so it won't work that way. Shiaopi's analysis of HiroPro's innocent child proposal really doesn't sit well with me. He objects to the innocent child plan on the grounds that the tracker wouldn't even be confirmed town because scum might counterclaim.
On August 08 2012 06:36 ShiaoPi wrote: While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
This is the part I have an issue with. He admits that it would actually be suboptimal for scum to counterclaim, but says that you should consider the possibility anyway.
This suggests to me that he was just nitpicking the plan for the sake of nitpicking the plan. Why would townie Shiaopi object to a plan on the grounds that scum will play suboptimally and defeat the plan? Shouldn't he be assuming scum plays optimally? I'd really like other people's opinions on this point, because I might be biased by my own view of the innocent child proposal.
prplhz
On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? This post seems sketchy. He is basically just criticizing Fortumite's play for the sake of criticizing Fortumite's play. This isn't constructive in any way -- prplhz doesn't say or even directly imply that Fortumite is scummy.
Forumite I'm surprised nobody is calling out Forumite as I write this. His wishy/washy suspicions on Shiaopi are clearly sketchy:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote: I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. On August 08 2012 07:00 Forumite wrote: On ShiaoPi, I wanted to see if my scumsenses were working after my break with a quick read. No, I´m not convinced he´s scum.
Seems like he makes a falsely confident read, voices a falsely confident case, and then backs off when marv and prplhz call him out on it.
I'd appreciate some thoughts on any of the points I brought up.
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On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
On prplhz Right now I´m in danger of falling into the OMGUS-trap, because the only thing I´ve gotten from him is the greeting and him calling me out. prplhz calling me out makes me think there´s something wrong with MY play, which makes prplhz a nulltell.
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@forumite Can you more fully explain your initial read on shiaopi, your current read on shiaopi, and why your read has changed? That last post makes it look like you have completely thrown out your initial suspicions on shiaopi. Is this solely because people such as prplhz have disagreed with you?
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On August 08 2012 10:43 sciberbia wrote: @forumite Can you more fully explain your initial read on shiaopi, your current read on shiaopi, and why your read has changed? That last post makes it look like you have completely thrown out your initial suspicions on shiaopi. Is this solely because people such as prplhz have disagreed with you? Initial read: On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. Basically I thought I saw some kind of anti-town motivation here. I´ve gotten good reads from initial posts in other games, so I thought I had found something here.
Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as ShiaoPi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done.
That´s about it, I´m back to square one on ShiaoPi.
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On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 10:43 sciberbia wrote: @forumite Can you more fully explain your initial read on shiaopi, your current read on shiaopi, and why your read has changed? That last post makes it look like you have completely thrown out your initial suspicions on shiaopi. Is this solely because people such as prplhz have disagreed with you? Initial read: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. Basically I thought I saw some kind of anti-town motivation here. I´ve gotten good reads from initial posts in other games, so I thought I had found something here. Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as ShiaoPi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done. That´s about it, I´m back to square one on ShiaoPi. So do you think for yourself, or are you going to let HiroPro, marv, and prplhz do the thinking for you for the rest of the game as well?
Do I think your initial read was suspicious? Maybe a tiny bit. It was really early, but at least you were taking a solid stand.
I understand changing your mind can happen. I've changed my mind a lot in the past. But your reasoning for changing your mind is bogus. "Because the 'vets' questioned me" is just flat out boggling.
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@keirathi I'm glad you find Forumite's explanation suspicious as well, because I don't think I've ever felt this good about a scumread after only 12 hours of D1. I'm planning on writing a sizeable case against him as soon as I finish playing my evening starcraft.
If you're still online, can you tell you me if you agree with anything I said about shiaopi?
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Ok:
On August 08 2012 10:08 sciberbia wrote:ShiaopiShow nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
I agree with Forumite that this post seems off. Shiaopi is no vet, yet he starts off the thread with this bravado, confidence, and authority. It just doesn't seem to fit with the more reserved Shiaopi I remember from NMM XIV. I see this post as a conscious attempt to look bold, which fits in more with scum goals than town goals. I dunno if I buy this point very much. Its been what...3, maybe 4? months since XIV. I didn't go back to check, but assuming his gameplay hasn't changed in that amount of time. I would expect someone to get more confident the longer the are around mafia games. Hell, I've gradually gotten more confident in just the last month of being around TLMafia.
On August 08 2012 10:08 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:39 ShiaoPi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 06:28 ShiaoPi wrote: @risk: It's more the general concept of Hiro to use a tracker claim as means of confirming town that I am against, not against claiming in general, but scum can easily counterclaim so it won't work that way. Shiaopi's analysis of HiroPro's innocent child proposal really doesn't sit well with me. He objects to the innocent child plan on the grounds that the tracker wouldn't even be confirmed town because scum might counterclaim. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:36 ShiaoPi wrote: While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
This is the part I have an issue with. He admits that it would actually be suboptimal for scum to counterclaim, but says that you should consider the possibility anyway. This suggests to me that he was just nitpicking the plan for the sake of nitpicking the plan. Why would townie Shiaopi object to a plan on the grounds that scum will play suboptimally and defeat the plan? Shouldn't he be assuming scum plays optimally? I'd really like other people's opinions on this point, because I might be biased by my own view of the innocent child proposal. You're right. We *SHOULD* assume that mafia are going to play optimally. However, I can't find any scum motive by saying they might play suboptimally. Maybe you could clarify why you think its scummy?
Nitpicking just to nitpick is suspicious, but I've seen tons of townies do it too. Not sure if its enough for me to think he is scum yet, but enough that I'll keep a closer eye on him.
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EBWOP: I didn't go back to check, but assuming his gameplay hasn't changed in that amount of time is folly
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hmm, had less time than i anticipated tonight, can't do much heavy analysis.
shiaopi triggers my scumdar. prplhz raised an eyebrow, but i keep looking
night - gotta go protect the moon
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my case on Forumite. Sorry for the length, but I think it's worth a thorough read.
His read on shiaopi (the logical inconsistencies)
1) Why didn't he explain his initial read on shiaopi?+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote: I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them. I find it suspicious that Forumite tried to provide townie motivation for his behavior, but it didn't really make sense.
2) What exactly did Forumite find scummy about shiaopi?+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. When I asked Forumite to explain precisely why he has changed his mind about shiaopi, Forumite said this: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. What I gather from this is that: -- Forumite's main beef with shiaopi was shiaopi's stance on policy discussion -- Forumite later decided to null this suspicion because shiaopi showed willingness to discuss the setup This logic is dubious to me, but what I find really suspicious is that Forumite continued to talk about his bold, red scumread on shiaopi even after shiaopi made some posts about setup and policy. The timing doesn't match up. Here are the relevant posts in chronological order: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 00:51 shiaopi wrote: @scib:
I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches. In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1 wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK. Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side?
On August 08 2012 00:55 shiaopi wrote: Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch. On August 08 2012 00:58 shiaopi wrote: Ah so another doublelynch instead of a single one. Makes sense now. On August 08 2012 05:39 shiaopi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 05:54 shiaopi wrote:So your scenario would not differ much from a standard claim and therefore it should be examined and then judged based on the situation and not just accepted (like child claim would be), would be too easy for scum then. Too bad I thought you found a way to circumvent the gamerules to modconfirm a tracker On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:21 shiaopi wrote: But stilll there is no need for him to claim. Just with his presence it would let our doc work much easier as scum cannot do too many RB's with his potential check. Do not see the need to lynch both claimers, just evaluate on the claims independently,I dislike both options , whether it is giving it a freepass or lynching. On August 08 2012 06:36 shiaopi wrote: While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
On the other hand I could see it working out for the better if he claims as early as you suggest. He would leave scum fishing for the doc between the other townies. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. ... On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. To recap 1) shiaopi is aganist discussing setup/policy 2) Forumite finds shiaopi very suspicious for not discussing setup/policy 3) shiaopi discusses a good deal of setup/policy 4) Forumite still finds shiaopi quite suspicious ... 5) Forumite no longer finds shiaopi suspicious because of the posts shiaopi made in phase (3) I trust you can all see the inconsistency here. In Forumite's explanation to me on why he has retracted his suspicions on shiaopi, Forumite references that "shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post". But this did not stop Forumite from telling prplhz all about how shiaopi is scum. And I don't believe for a second that Forumite wasn't paying close attention to shiaopi's posts after he stuck his neck out and accused shiaopi. I see a significant contradiction here.
3) Why exactly did Forumite change his mind on shiaopi?+ Show Spoiler +This post took him 28 minuts to come up with after I asked him to more fully explain why he changed his opinion on shiaopi: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done.
That´s about it, I´m back to square one on shiaopi. OK so let me break this down: 1) shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup -- I discussed my issues with this logic previously 2) Forumite knew he wasn't getting anywhere -- This means nothing to me 3) Forumite didn't have much to start with and got conflicting reads -- That's not what it sounded like when he told prplhz how shiaopi is scum 4) The vets didn't agree This last point about the vets I find especially bad. Forumite references marv, HiroPro, and prplhz marvOn August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. This is all marv says on shiaopi. Marv doesn't actually give any read on shiaopi whatsoever. Marv merely expresses displeasure at Forumite's behavior. This does not count as 'disagreeing with the case' HiroProOn August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote: (directed at Mordanis) What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote: Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way. prplhzOn August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign shiaopi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? prplhz does think that Forumite's case on shiaopi is bad, but like Keirathi said, why on earth is Forumite taking prplhz's opinion into account here? First of all, prplhz has done nothing to convince anyone that he is town. And secondly, prplhz doesn't even explain why the case on shiaopi is bad. Put yourself in Forumite's shoes: 1) You have a scumread on shiaopi that you feel good enough about to announce to the thread 2) some vet comes into the thread and calls you an idiot but doesn't justify himself 3) You conclude that you must have been wrong about your scumread??? It just doesn't follow. See his thoughts on prplhz here: On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On prplhz Right now I´m in danger of falling into the OMGUS-trap, because the only thing I´ve gotten from him is the greeting and him calling me out. prplhz calling me out makes me think there´s something wrong with MY play, which makes prplhz a nulltell. I have a hard time believing that this would be any townie's reaction to essentially being called an idiot with no justification given.
Other scummy points the way in which he discredits his own reads+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
I find this response suspicious. It looks like he is trying to garner sympathy and not inflate the issue. I don't know why a townie would call his own cases bad and cast doubt on his own scumhunting ability.
he seems scared of marv, prplhz, me + Show Spoiler +Not sure if all of this really fits under the term buddying, but I get the feeling that he is playing a bit scared of influential players: marv-- Forumite explains his read on shiaopi only when demanded by marv -- "I agree with marvellosity, not tracking nightkills make the Tracker and Watcher too weak." -- changes his read on shiaopi based on opinion of vet marv prplhzHis interactions with prplhz seem really odd. It's like he worships prplhz. I looked through Forumite's D1 of Wheel of Fortune, where Forumite was scum and spent some time defending prplhz, so I find this especially suspicious. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. -- backs off his read on shiaopi after scolded by prplhz -- concludes that he himself must be playing bad because prplhz thinks he is scummy meOn August 08 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:
@sciberbia Fair enough, we´ve talked too much about the innocent child and need to scumhunt. Any tips on where to start? On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
It's actually remarkable how much of his filter I take issue with considering we are like 15 hours into D1. As I've been writing this case, I have a pretty good feeling about it. The only thing that really makes me hesitate is it seems almost too obvious, and that no scum would be so obvious on D1. Forumite doesn't seem like a bad/noob player, and I think he made it to the end of Wheel of Fortune as scum.
I really want opinions on this case. If you are online, please post your thoughts.
I think Forumite is more likely scum than not, and he is far and away my top scum candidate at this point, so
##Vote Forumite
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Hey guys, didn't anticipate the early deadline so yea ...
Anyways, any of the blue roles can be used to the "innocent child" effect. Scum are extremely limited in their ability to fakeclaim because it is a blue-wise open setup (we might not know the 2nd blue identity but we can still cc any blue claim instantly). I recommend whoever is blue to consider this and not hastily throw away a potential advantage here by claiming early (mainly tracker but same thing extends to watcher/cop).
No go on double lynch. Too exploitable / volatile in a game this small.
On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Hey Mordanis, could you explain this contradiction? If this was an attempt to draw scum out, you have now just alerted them all with the second post, which goes against what you said in the first post. You said you are currently null on Forumite yet it seems like you are leaning a certain direction in your read of him.
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Read sciberbia's case and it's pretty good - there are some clear inconsistencies in Forumite's play, and he does seem to be "taking the temperature" of the thread according to player sentiments. I'd disagree with some of your interpretations of said players' intentions but it doesn't change the fact of Forumite's reactionary play. It could possibly be a result of lowered confidence in play due to a period of inactivity, so I'll be waiting to see how he responds to it.
I do, however, have a question with one of your prior posts:
On August 08 2012 10:08 sciberbia wrote:OK I've made brief notes on everybody. Here are the people I find sketchiest so far: ShiaopiShow nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
I agree with Forumite that this post seems off. Shiaopi is no vet, yet he starts off the thread with this bravado, confidence, and authority. It just doesn't seem to fit with the more reserved Shiaopi I remember from NMM XIV. I see this post as a conscious attempt to look bold, which fits in more with scum goals than town goals. Here you take issue with the same post that your case on Forumite is based off. What are your current thoughts on ShiaoPi, and how do they play in relation with Forumite?
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On August 08 2012 16:35 slOosh wrote: Here you take issue with the same post that your case on Forumite is based off. What are your current thoughts on ShiaoPi, and how do they play in relation with Forumite?
@sloOsh Earlier, I pointed out two things in Shiaopi's filter that I feel are a cause for concern. Nothing in his filter jumps out at me as especially townie-looking, so overall I'm slightly suspicious of Shiaopi.
My personal views on shiaopi's posts don't really factor into my case on Forumite at all. I'm not saying Forumite is scummy because he made a bad case on a townie looking player. Rather, I think Forumite is scummy (in part) due to inconsistencies in the way in which he presented his case, explained his case, and backed down from his case. His first actual points about shiaopi's first post seem reasonable IMO, although I think he overstates their importance by calling shiaopi scum.
I'm not sure if you are trying to ask if I think Shiaopi and Forumite can both be scum, but the answer would be that I'm not really thinking about them that way right now. Forumite looks rather suspicious to me regardless of Shiaopi's alignment.
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On August 08 2012 16:35 slOosh wrote: Read sciberbia's case and it's pretty good - there are some clear inconsistencies in Forumite's play, and he does seem to be "taking the temperature" of the thread according to player sentiments. I'd disagree with some of your interpretations of said players' intentions but it doesn't change the fact of Forumite's reactionary play. It could possibly be a result of lowered confidence in play due to a period of inactivity, so I'll be waiting to see how he responds to it. I think it went like; "Hey guys, ShiaoPi looks scum to me! Let´s pressure him!" "Nah, I don´t see it, let´s not pressure him." "Oh, okay, nevermind then."
Continuing without revealing what I initially felt was scummy would have derailed the thread, and once I did reveal my "case" and reexamined it, it felt silly, weak and premature to me too. Even my first post accusing ShiaoPi of being scum was premature, it would have been better to take that initial read as a sign to watch ShiaoPi more closely, but at the time I wanted to create some pressure.
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Hey, Custos Luna! You are supposed to be a well-known Veteran, what are your reads on the game so far, apart from weak suspicion on prplhz and ShiaoPi?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him.
@Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why?
Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis:
Take a look at his opening post:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum.
He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done.
This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern.
His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib.
+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote: -snip- Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him?
He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town?
Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best.
Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming.
Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff.
I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so
##vote: Mordanis
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On August 08 2012 08:47 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 08:38 risk.nuke wrote:On August 08 2012 08:28 Bluelightz wrote: Agh. Clarifying nao. Watcher tracks everything that visits his target, while tracker tracks role actions. Yes one person can both rb/kill in 1 night Okey, I'm still not sure but I'm starting to lean that if we have a tracker (which we probably don't have if we're lucky) he should claim. At first I thought hiros suggestion was dumb as crap but thinking about it more and including things that hiro probably didn't even realise I'm starting to feel this might be the best action. I think he should claim Day 3 or preferably during night 2. Just before the daypost. (He could put some effort into making sure he'll be around for that time) but otherwise day 3 will be fine. thoughts? I think postulating about a setup we only have 1/3 of the time with various unknown lynches/nightkills in the way is quite an unproductive use of thread space. Even in your post you say "for things without Hiro realises" without expanding upon them. Looks like crap designed to spam up the thread. Well let me explain further what I ment. When hiro first brought up the idea of using the tracker as an innocent child because tracking sucked in this setup, his idea was crap. When I gave it more thought and realising that doing this at a specific time gives us a mid-lategame confirmed townie and a high chance to stop a kp with a medic the idea started to look good. However the idea he explained to us was crap, so no matter where this leads hiro should still be held accountable for proposing a shitty plan.
Last night was a good time to discuss these things marv. You claim I was spamming up the thread when what I was doing was discussiong ideas. Which is infinitly close to scumhunting then what you have been doing. Which is nothing.
Prplhz also have done nothing.
Glad to see we got some scumhunting going. I'll be on later and join the fray.
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On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Marvel, could you explain this? I had an early scumread and said so a few times, definetly not spamming the thread about it. I also said I preferred to keep the reason to myself for the moment. What was wrong about that? Why did you want me to either reveal evidence early D1 or stop with light pressure on a random townie?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 08 2012 20:21 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Marvel, could you explain this? I had an early scumread and said so a few times, definetly not spamming the thread about it. I also said I preferred to keep the reason to myself for the moment. What was wrong about that? Why did you want me to either reveal evidence early D1 or stop with light pressure on a random townie?
Because calling someone scum without reasoning or recourse to defend themselves isn't productive, and it isn't "pressure" - there's no pressure, because it's meaningless. I left you to it the first couple of times you did it, but when you start pointing others to your 'read' (prplhz), still without explanation, then it should be called out.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
any of you care to comment on my case on mord?
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On August 08 2012 20:47 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 20:21 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Marvel, could you explain this? I had an early scumread and said so a few times, definetly not spamming the thread about it. I also said I preferred to keep the reason to myself for the moment. What was wrong about that? Why did you want me to either reveal evidence early D1 or stop with light pressure on a random townie? Because calling someone scum without reasoning or recourse to defend themselves isn't productive, and it isn't "pressure" - there's no pressure, because it's meaningless. I left you to it the first couple of times you did it, but when you start pointing others to your 'read' (prplhz), still without explanation, then it should be called out. I asked one player, prplhz, because I wanted a confirmation if he saw the same thing I saw. What's wrong with saying "I think X looks bad", and wait with clarifying why? I'll do it eventually, of course, but why right Now?
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did you read? I didn't say 'right now'. I only pressed you on it when you kept repeating the accusation without anything else to back it up. Again, it's not pressure if it's not done in a style that can elicit any sort of response other than "lol ok".
Shiao: yes I will, and hopefully a couple of others when I grab an hour this afternoon.
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On August 08 2012 21:06 ShiaoPi wrote: any of you care to comment on my case on mord? I like your case on mord, he posts lots of fluff and no substance. I'll have to take a closer look when I get to my computer.
On August 08 2012 21:25 marvellosity wrote: did you read? I didn't say 'right now'. I only pressed you on it when you kept repeating the accusation without anything else to back it up. Again, it's not pressure if it's not done in a style that can elicit any sort of response other than "lol ok".
Shiao: yes I will, and hopefully a couple of others when I grab an hour this afternoon. I know it wasn't a very effective pressure, I had allready admitted that, but I must have had a reason for still going on. You called me out as if you wanted confirmation if I had something, so that you could deal with it now. I didn't see any harm in my action, so there was no reason for you to stop me on behalf of a random townie, that's what feels wrong to me.
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I disagree, casting pointless suspicion about is worth putting a stop to. If it feels wrong to you, tough titties. For your viewing pleasure, a quote of mine from movie mafia:
On June 25 2012 09:01 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:58 slOosh wrote: Let's not WIFOM at who we would shoot as scum. It won't produce anything substantial and allows scum to blend in and derails thread from what is truly important: hunting and lynching scum. Since there is finally some thread activity going on, I'll be happy to sit down and think carefully what the heck is going on. Probulous I'm still unhappy about your play this game, starting with the oversight in your Zentor vote. Of course this could be an honest mistake so I'm gonna sit on it for now. Still waiting for von Klaust as well. If you ignore me I'ma hound you down. You need to stop doing this. You keep asking people about Probulous and telling him you're suspicious, but all you're willing to say is that you didn't like his Zentor vote oversight. Either make a case or don't. Stop expecting others to answer for you, or telling Probulous he's suspicious with no way to make a defence as you won't actually make a case.
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On August 08 2012 22:06 marvellosity wrote:I disagree, casting pointless suspicion about is worth putting a stop to. If it feels wrong to you, tough titties. For your viewing pleasure, a quote of mine from movie mafia: Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 09:01 marvellosity wrote:On June 25 2012 08:58 slOosh wrote: Let's not WIFOM at who we would shoot as scum. It won't produce anything substantial and allows scum to blend in and derails thread from what is truly important: hunting and lynching scum. Since there is finally some thread activity going on, I'll be happy to sit down and think carefully what the heck is going on. Probulous I'm still unhappy about your play this game, starting with the oversight in your Zentor vote. Of course this could be an honest mistake so I'm gonna sit on it for now. Still waiting for von Klaust as well. If you ignore me I'ma hound you down. You need to stop doing this. You keep asking people about Probulous and telling him you're suspicious, but all you're willing to say is that you didn't like his Zentor vote oversight. Either make a case or don't. Stop expecting others to answer for you, or telling Probulous he's suspicious with no way to make a defence as you won't actually make a case. Okay, you have me convinced. There was nothing nefarious about you telling me to stop calling people scum without explanation.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 10:08 sciberbia wrote:OK I've made brief notes on everybody. Here are the people I find sketchiest so far: ShiaopiShow nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
I agree with Forumite that this post seems off. Shiaopi is no vet, yet he starts off the thread with this bravado, confidence, and authority. It just doesn't seem to fit with the more reserved Shiaopi I remember from NMM XIV. I see this post as a conscious attempt to look bold, which fits in more with scum goals than town goals. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:39 ShiaoPi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 06:28 ShiaoPi wrote: @risk: It's more the general concept of Hiro to use a tracker claim as means of confirming town that I am against, not against claiming in general, but scum can easily counterclaim so it won't work that way. Shiaopi's analysis of HiroPro's innocent child proposal really doesn't sit well with me. He objects to the innocent child plan on the grounds that the tracker wouldn't even be confirmed town because scum might counterclaim. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:36 ShiaoPi wrote: While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
This is the part I have an issue with. He admits that it would actually be suboptimal for scum to counterclaim, but says that you should consider the possibility anyway. This suggests to me that he was just nitpicking the plan for the sake of nitpicking the plan. Why would townie Shiaopi object to a plan on the grounds that scum will play suboptimally and defeat the plan? Shouldn't he be assuming scum plays optimally? I'd really like other people's opinions on this point, because I might be biased by my own view of the innocent child proposal. prplhzShow nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? This post seems sketchy. He is basically just criticizing Fortumite's play for the sake of criticizing Fortumite's play. This isn't constructive in any way -- prplhz doesn't say or even directly imply that Fortumite is scummy. ForumiteI'm surprised nobody is calling out Forumite as I write this. His wishy/washy suspicions on Shiaopi are clearly sketchy: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote: I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. On August 08 2012 07:00 Forumite wrote: On ShiaoPi, I wanted to see if my scumsenses were working after my break with a quick read. No, I´m not convinced he´s scum. Seems like he makes a falsely confident read, voices a falsely confident case, and then backs off when marv and prplhz call him out on it.
I'd appreciate some thoughts on any of the points I brought up.
Spoilered is scib's post on Shiao/prplhz/Forumite.
On ShiaoPi. I don't read too much into the apparent 'bravado' in his first post. Moreover, my read on his post saying he didn't like discussing policy is that it was simply a dumb post, not a scummy post. People aren't going to stop discussing policy/setup because someone (further - someone who is not relatively a 'vet' in this game) expressed their displeasure at it. The only actual results of the post are that a) he looks bad when other people want to talk about shit like that which they always always do, b) he looks bad when inevitably he gets drawn into conversations about setup/policy. What's the scumplan with the post? It's ludicrous to imagine he thought he could stop town talking with it (!?), so rather it reads to me as a poorly thought through "let's get the fuck on with this guys!"
On prplhz. At the moment doesn't seem to give a shit about town. Will elaborate a little in a post a bit later.
On Foru. Will hopefully respond to the longer case fairly shortly after I've gone through Mordanis again. Briefly here, a point about Forumite calling Shiao out so early is that it puts his head above the parapet to be examined. Doesn't seem like a worthwhile thing to do as scum. My memory of Foru's scumplay from WoF is that he simply blended in.
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ShiaoPi's Mordanis case:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote:I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis:Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote: -snip- Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis
Hopefully you can flesh/further explain somethings for me Shiao. Firstly, Mordanis can be pretty damn wishy-washy as either alignment. Why do you think it's alignment-indicative here?
You write this - "The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid" which was in reference to Mordanis talking about not revealing heuristics for scumreads. Scumcatching heuristics is not the same as policy talk, why are you conflating the two?
With the stuff talking about Costa Luna's quote of scib's town/VT claiming stuff. This kinda stuff is just made for making people walk around in circles and look confused/contradictory. So I will talk about this in a later post with regards to CL, rather than Mordanis.
I take particular issue with your final paragraph:
Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff.
Forumite accusing you was not a major thread event, and doesn't particularly require everyone to make mention of it. Hiro asked him about it... and he answered? How is this a point? Further, the fact that Mordanis doesn't mind talking about policy does not automatically equate to the idea that he should find anyone who doesn't like talking about policy scummy. Disagree != scum.
Overall I think the case is pretty bad. I'm not sure atm if maliciously so.
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Clarification about my opinion of Mordanis Big posts but very few, talking about me, possible VT-claim and policy, with a lot of fluff. Overall lots of text but next to no content, which looks bad. His post about "funnily enough" asking CL feels off somehow. Mordanis needs to shape up, or at least post more.
I'm anxiosly awaiting the time when CL gets back.
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On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote:my case on Forumite. Sorry for the length, but I think it's worth a thorough read. His read on shiaopi (the logical inconsistencies) 1) Why didn't he explain his initial read on shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote: I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them. I find it suspicious that Forumite tried to provide townie motivation for his behavior, but it didn't really make sense. 2) What exactly did Forumite find scummy about shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. When I asked Forumite to explain precisely why he has changed his mind about shiaopi, Forumite said this: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. What I gather from this is that: -- Forumite's main beef with shiaopi was shiaopi's stance on policy discussion -- Forumite later decided to null this suspicion because shiaopi showed willingness to discuss the setup This logic is dubious to me, but what I find really suspicious is that Forumite continued to talk about his bold, red scumread on shiaopi even after shiaopi made some posts about setup and policy. The timing doesn't match up. Here are the relevant posts in chronological order: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 00:51 shiaopi wrote: @scib:
I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches. In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1 wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK. Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side?
On August 08 2012 00:55 shiaopi wrote: Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch. On August 08 2012 00:58 shiaopi wrote: Ah so another doublelynch instead of a single one. Makes sense now. On August 08 2012 05:39 shiaopi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 05:54 shiaopi wrote:So your scenario would not differ much from a standard claim and therefore it should be examined and then judged based on the situation and not just accepted (like child claim would be), would be too easy for scum then. Too bad I thought you found a way to circumvent the gamerules to modconfirm a tracker On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:21 shiaopi wrote: But stilll there is no need for him to claim. Just with his presence it would let our doc work much easier as scum cannot do too many RB's with his potential check. Do not see the need to lynch both claimers, just evaluate on the claims independently,I dislike both options , whether it is giving it a freepass or lynching. On August 08 2012 06:36 shiaopi wrote: While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
On the other hand I could see it working out for the better if he claims as early as you suggest. He would leave scum fishing for the doc between the other townies. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. ... On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. To recap 1) shiaopi is aganist discussing setup/policy 2) Forumite finds shiaopi very suspicious for not discussing setup/policy 3) shiaopi discusses a good deal of setup/policy 4) Forumite still finds shiaopi quite suspicious ... 5) Forumite no longer finds shiaopi suspicious because of the posts shiaopi made in phase (3) I trust you can all see the inconsistency here. In Forumite's explanation to me on why he has retracted his suspicions on shiaopi, Forumite references that "shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post". But this did not stop Forumite from telling prplhz all about how shiaopi is scum. And I don't believe for a second that Forumite wasn't paying close attention to shiaopi's posts after he stuck his neck out and accused shiaopi. I see a significant contradiction here. 3) Why exactly did Forumite change his mind on shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +This post took him 28 minuts to come up with after I asked him to more fully explain why he changed his opinion on shiaopi: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done.
That´s about it, I´m back to square one on shiaopi. OK so let me break this down: 1) shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup -- I discussed my issues with this logic previously 2) Forumite knew he wasn't getting anywhere -- This means nothing to me 3) Forumite didn't have much to start with and got conflicting reads -- That's not what it sounded like when he told prplhz how shiaopi is scum 4) The vets didn't agree This last point about the vets I find especially bad. Forumite references marv, HiroPro, and prplhz marvOn August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. This is all marv says on shiaopi. Marv doesn't actually give any read on shiaopi whatsoever. Marv merely expresses displeasure at Forumite's behavior. This does not count as 'disagreeing with the case' HiroProOn August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote: (directed at Mordanis) What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote: Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way. prplhzOn August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign shiaopi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? prplhz does think that Forumite's case on shiaopi is bad, but like Keirathi said, why on earth is Forumite taking prplhz's opinion into account here? First of all, prplhz has done nothing to convince anyone that he is town. And secondly, prplhz doesn't even explain why the case on shiaopi is bad. Put yourself in Forumite's shoes: 1) You have a scumread on shiaopi that you feel good enough about to announce to the thread 2) some vet comes into the thread and calls you an idiot but doesn't justify himself 3) You conclude that you must have been wrong about your scumread??? It just doesn't follow. See his thoughts on prplhz here: On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On prplhz Right now I´m in danger of falling into the OMGUS-trap, because the only thing I´ve gotten from him is the greeting and him calling me out. prplhz calling me out makes me think there´s something wrong with MY play, which makes prplhz a nulltell. I have a hard time believing that this would be any townie's reaction to essentially being called an idiot with no justification given. Other scummy points the way in which he discredits his own reads + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
I find this response suspicious. It looks like he is trying to garner sympathy and not inflate the issue. I don't know why a townie would call his own cases bad and cast doubt on his own scumhunting ability. he seems scared of marv, prplhz, me + Show Spoiler +Not sure if all of this really fits under the term buddying, but I get the feeling that he is playing a bit scared of influential players: marv-- Forumite explains his read on shiaopi only when demanded by marv -- "I agree with marvellosity, not tracking nightkills make the Tracker and Watcher too weak." -- changes his read on shiaopi based on opinion of vet marv prplhzHis interactions with prplhz seem really odd. It's like he worships prplhz. I looked through Forumite's D1 of Wheel of Fortune, where Forumite was scum and spent some time defending prplhz, so I find this especially suspicious. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. -- backs off his read on shiaopi after scolded by prplhz -- concludes that he himself must be playing bad because prplhz thinks he is scummy meOn August 08 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:
@sciberbia Fair enough, we´ve talked too much about the innocent child and need to scumhunt. Any tips on where to start? On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
It's actually remarkable how much of his filter I take issue with considering we are like 15 hours into D1. As I've been writing this case, I have a pretty good feeling about it. The only thing that really makes me hesitate is it seems almost too obvious, and that no scum would be so obvious on D1. Forumite doesn't seem like a bad/noob player, and I think he made it to the end of Wheel of Fortune as scum. I really want opinions on this case. If you are online, please post your thoughts. I think Forumite is more likely scum than not, and he is far and away my top scum candidate at this point, so ##Vote Forumite
There are some pretty good things about this case. The strongest thing about the whole case is contained within the first section.
On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger.
scib comments thusly: "If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them."
Totally valid. There are two contradicting stories. Forumite has repeatedly alluded to creating 'pressure' on ShiaoPi with his early accusation. But there's no pressure in such an empty accusation - see Shiao's repsonse just there. But Forumite replies to him that he's more likely to scumslip if he doesn't think there's any danger. So... why point the finger at him? That 100% makes someone more vigilant. There's a big contradiction in wanting to create pressure and thinking someone will scumslip if there is... no pressure!
Further, I agree with scib's point about calling your own cases/confidence bad. There's no town motivation for wanting to have lower credibility with your reads, but it does provide an excuse for bad reads later (e.g. 'accidentally' mislynching a townie at some point).
I dislike that Forumite has replied several times in thread but has not in fact addressed sciberbia's case against him. In fact his reply was to *slOosh*, who merely passed a little bit of comment on it, but nothing back at scib. Why?
A couple of things on the flip side: I don't particularly agree with the whole vet stuff. At that point it's kinda a lose-lose situation. Foru could have gone the other way and pursued his post 1 read despite fairly influential townies being quite sceptical. In that case he would have been accused of blindly tunnelling with zero support.
Like I mentioned a couple of posts ago, I don't know why scum Foru would make himself so noticeable like that when my read of his scumplay was blendy, and scib alludes to this too. Also the fact that Foru poked me about how I picked him up on it - why bring further thread exposure to the whole issue? Why bring me back to the topic?
Basically I'm getting conflicting reads from various things. The whole contradiction with pressure vs more likely to scumslip without danger is a big point to me, because it makes him sound like squirmy scum who can't quite explain himself. Against this being a good player drawing attention to himself where unnecessary.
People should be discussing scib's case/Forumite today please.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@marv:
While I agree that he can be wishy-washy regardless of alignment, I am having a lot more trouble with his discussion within his own post. I cannot quite word it the way I want to. It's like he is purposefully filling up his posts to make them harder to read and harder to understand. Also with a lot of filler which is not really beneficial at all.
I put heuristics and policytalk together as I would use them as synonyms in this case. Isn't the heuristic of scumreading, things you look out for when hunting scum? Policytalk is also a general way to establish a basic frame in which you think certain stuff is agreeable. Therefore I see it as contradiction of himself.
Regarding the final paragraph, maybe you can call it being self-centered much, but wasn't it the first accusation in thread? I would say it qualifies as a thread event. You can call me nitpicky if you want, but the accusation had been around for a while and when asked Mord replies with: "Wow, I totally did not see it coming?" That's more the general sentiment his post gives out. It gives me the feel that he is just acting surprised for the sake of it. Furthermore mord says he has "no idea" how that could be scummy, when he says that cutting policy talk is bad. I would equal bad in this case as scummy/anti-town behaviour therefore my conclusion at the last paragraph.
Feel free to disregard the case if you want, as long as Mord does not show up and give me some scumhunting done by himself I am happy with the situation right now. What would be your preferred lynch for the day then?
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I apologize friends, the moon is very demanding today (busy day at work). I want to make a nice post when I get some time. Just letting it be known that I am here and reading, I just haven't had the time to write a comprehensive post.
Also: Last night when I said ShiaoPi was triggering my scumdar, I meant Scib. Combination of tired brain + new names for me. This was just preliminary thinking before sleep. All opinions subject to change.
A couple things I can quickly address:
On August 08 2012 17:48 Forumite wrote: Hey, Custos Luna! You are supposed to be a well-known Veteran, what are your reads on the game so far, apart from weak suspicion on prplhz and ShiaoPi?
So far, most reads are weak, and there doesn't seem to be much commital aside from a few players. That said:
I agree with Shiao's case on Mordanis. The biggest one that stands out is his last post
On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming.
Of all the players here, Mord is the most non-commital of them all. It's not even wishy-washy, it's just flat out grey space. He seems shocked that Forumite would create an accusation so early, but doesn't really do anything with it. So here is the moon's demand, mord:
Take a stand. Faith or heresy. Ignorance or truth. The moon does not like goblins.
##vote Mordanis
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Final post for now.
People who don't care about town:
prplhz. For your convenience, his posts so far:
On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum?
On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do?
Posting to say he isn't reading, and casting doubt with seemingly no purpose. This is seriously pants. I'd be happier to vote for him if I hadn't seen him do similar as town before.
Custos Moony
This dude is worse. DoYouHas talked about him a little yesterday, and I agree with what he said. To expand:
On August 08 2012 01:40 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote: Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf,
...
Thoughts on roleclaims: Vanilla Townies Please do not roleclaim without a very good reason.
This goes back to part of Shiao's case on Mordanis, where Mordanis tied himself up in knots a bit about it. However, I see the root cause of that particular problem as Luna's post here (of course sciberbia was the originator, but Luna is the one to highlight it). The problem I have with this post is that it's highlighting something without providing your own commentary on it. As DYH said, it's highlighting a contradiction that wasn't even really a contradiction. What it *is* doing is planting an idea into town, an idea that can't be fruitful, and then letting town shit itself up with it. I see strong scum motive in this.
On August 08 2012 04:31 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:CVSTO LVNA PRO SVVS ABVTOR GENITIVI PROVOCO ET AVT NOMEN SVVS MVTAVERIT AVT DABO SENSVS MEVS EI + Show Spoiler [Translation] +For his abuse of the genitive I am calling out Custo Luna, and he must either change his name or I will vote for him. + Show Spoiler +Not really, this was just a fun may to make my 4 years of latin worthwhile, and for anyone who's taken latin: Come on, Luna is a first declension noun. Easiest one to learn, and CL has it wrong in his name (Unless his name is just supposed to be two unrelated nouns, like JingleHell, VisceraEyes, and if you allow one word to be an adjective, BlazingHand, BloodyCobbler, etc, etc, etc.). This is therefore a joke. Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? I took 6 years of Latin, but it's been 5 years since I took my last class D= you should petition the mods to change it for me Mostly just poking for now, I'm at work and reading when I can, so I'm making note of things I see. To everyone: stop discussing the possibilities of a D1 double lynch when you have 0 candidates. There is no point to posit the idea of killing 2 when there isn't even 1 on the table.
Again as DYH points out, everyone wasn't talking about a D1 double lynch at all. It was mentioned offhandedly as a bad idea a couple of times, but never seriously proposed in any way. In an empty filter, it's empty filler devoid of content for the sake of saying something. Further to note - he's at work and reading where he can, and just "poking". Excuse for not being substantial.
On August 08 2012 08:30 Custos Luna wrote: Watcher tracks and Tracker watches. got it
Just pointless. If it was sandwiched between content, fine, but it isn't. The fact of the matter is that Custos was around the thread at at least three points yesterday (just check the timestamps of what I quoted) but when he's around he contributes nothing or even causes thread disruption.
On August 08 2012 13:18 Custos Luna wrote: hmm, had less time than i anticipated tonight, can't do much heavy analysis.
shiaopi triggers my scumdar. prplhz raised an eyebrow, but i keep looking
night - gotta go protect the moon
Second excuse for doing nothing.
In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target.
##Vote: Custos Luna
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
fuck me, I just got epically ninjad.
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@prplhz:
Where you at bro. You've made 2 posts and said absolutely nothing. Vaguely shedding suspicion on Forumite with questions, but not actually doing anything.
Whatcha feelin mang?
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On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote:HiroProShow nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote: (directed at Mordanis) What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote: Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way.
mm, you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't agreeing with the case - there's no contradiction there (setup and policy aren't the same thing). What I was more interested in was that two of Forumite's main points were that ShiaoPi wasn't sharing his own thoughts and was trying to "shut down discussion". However, right after Forumite made his inital accusation, Shiao was willing to discuss the setup, which doesn't really fit with his points. I wanted to know whether that changed his read.
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On August 09 2012 00:31 marvellosity wrote:Final post for now. People who don't care about town: prplhz. For your convenience, his posts so far: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? Posting to say he isn't reading, and casting doubt with seemingly no purpose. This is seriously pants. I'd be happier to vote for him if I hadn't seen him do similar as town before. Custos MoonyThis dude is worse. DoYouHas talked about him a little yesterday, and I agree with what he said. To expand: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:40 Custos Luna wrote:On August 08 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote: Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf,
...
Thoughts on roleclaims: Vanilla Townies Please do not roleclaim without a very good reason.
This goes back to part of Shiao's case on Mordanis, where Mordanis tied himself up in knots a bit about it. However, I see the root cause of that particular problem as Luna's post here (of course sciberbia was the originator, but Luna is the one to highlight it). The problem I have with this post is that it's highlighting something without providing your own commentary on it. As DYH said, it's highlighting a contradiction that wasn't even really a contradiction. What it *is* doing is planting an idea into town, an idea that can't be fruitful, and then letting town shit itself up with it. I see strong scum motive in this. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:31 Custos Luna wrote:On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:CVSTO LVNA PRO SVVS ABVTOR GENITIVI PROVOCO ET AVT NOMEN SVVS MVTAVERIT AVT DABO SENSVS MEVS EI + Show Spoiler [Translation] +For his abuse of the genitive I am calling out Custo Luna, and he must either change his name or I will vote for him. + Show Spoiler +Not really, this was just a fun may to make my 4 years of latin worthwhile, and for anyone who's taken latin: Come on, Luna is a first declension noun. Easiest one to learn, and CL has it wrong in his name (Unless his name is just supposed to be two unrelated nouns, like JingleHell, VisceraEyes, and if you allow one word to be an adjective, BlazingHand, BloodyCobbler, etc, etc, etc.). This is therefore a joke. Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? I took 6 years of Latin, but it's been 5 years since I took my last class D= you should petition the mods to change it for me Mostly just poking for now, I'm at work and reading when I can, so I'm making note of things I see. To everyone: stop discussing the possibilities of a D1 double lynch when you have 0 candidates. There is no point to posit the idea of killing 2 when there isn't even 1 on the table. Again as DYH points out, everyone wasn't talking about a D1 double lynch at all. It was mentioned offhandedly as a bad idea a couple of times, but never seriously proposed in any way. In an empty filter, it's empty filler devoid of content for the sake of saying something. Further to note - he's at work and reading where he can, and just "poking". Excuse for not being substantial. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 08:30 Custos Luna wrote: Watcher tracks and Tracker watches. got it Just pointless. If it was sandwiched between content, fine, but it isn't. The fact of the matter is that Custos was around the thread at at least three points yesterday (just check the timestamps of what I quoted) but when he's around he contributes nothing or even causes thread disruption. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 13:18 Custos Luna wrote: hmm, had less time than i anticipated tonight, can't do much heavy analysis.
shiaopi triggers my scumdar. prplhz raised an eyebrow, but i keep looking
night - gotta go protect the moon Second excuse for doing nothing. In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target. ##Vote: Custos Luna
My friend, I'm sad you think I don't care for town. The moon cares for nothing but the truth. But you are right, my content was...lacking, and I will try to address your points.
The logical fallicy I quoted from Scib was based on the first thing I learned playing Mafia many moons ago. A town player will feel no guilt or extra drive to appear as town. A scum player wants to point out that he's town. He wants to establish his innocense so he can fly under the radar.
In general, I am against deep policy discussion. It is very easy for scum to hide among that, and people will almost never agree on a blanket statement procedure. This is why I wanted to curb the double lynch discussion as it was a non-value add discussion at the time (especially Day 1, unless something out of the ordinary happens).
Now, a question for you.
On August 09 2012 00:16 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote:my case on Forumite. Sorry for the length, but I think it's worth a thorough read. His read on shiaopi (the logical inconsistencies) 1) Why didn't he explain his initial read on shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote: I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them. I find it suspicious that Forumite tried to provide townie motivation for his behavior, but it didn't really make sense. 2) What exactly did Forumite find scummy about shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. When I asked Forumite to explain precisely why he has changed his mind about shiaopi, Forumite said this: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. What I gather from this is that: -- Forumite's main beef with shiaopi was shiaopi's stance on policy discussion -- Forumite later decided to null this suspicion because shiaopi showed willingness to discuss the setup This logic is dubious to me, but what I find really suspicious is that Forumite continued to talk about his bold, red scumread on shiaopi even after shiaopi made some posts about setup and policy. The timing doesn't match up. Here are the relevant posts in chronological order: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote: I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 00:51 shiaopi wrote: @scib:
I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches. In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1 wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK. Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side?
On August 08 2012 00:55 shiaopi wrote: Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch. On August 08 2012 00:58 shiaopi wrote: Ah so another doublelynch instead of a single one. Makes sense now. On August 08 2012 05:39 shiaopi wrote: @HiroPro: Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 05:54 shiaopi wrote:So your scenario would not differ much from a standard claim and therefore it should be examined and then judged based on the situation and not just accepted (like child claim would be), would be too easy for scum then. Too bad I thought you found a way to circumvent the gamerules to modconfirm a tracker On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:21 shiaopi wrote: But stilll there is no need for him to claim. Just with his presence it would let our doc work much easier as scum cannot do too many RB's with his potential check. Do not see the need to lynch both claimers, just evaluate on the claims independently,I dislike both options , whether it is giving it a freepass or lynching. On August 08 2012 06:36 shiaopi wrote: While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
On the other hand I could see it working out for the better if he claims as early as you suggest. He would leave scum fishing for the doc between the other townies. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. ... On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. To recap 1) shiaopi is aganist discussing setup/policy 2) Forumite finds shiaopi very suspicious for not discussing setup/policy 3) shiaopi discusses a good deal of setup/policy 4) Forumite still finds shiaopi quite suspicious ... 5) Forumite no longer finds shiaopi suspicious because of the posts shiaopi made in phase (3) I trust you can all see the inconsistency here. In Forumite's explanation to me on why he has retracted his suspicions on shiaopi, Forumite references that "shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post". But this did not stop Forumite from telling prplhz all about how shiaopi is scum. And I don't believe for a second that Forumite wasn't paying close attention to shiaopi's posts after he stuck his neck out and accused shiaopi. I see a significant contradiction here. 3) Why exactly did Forumite change his mind on shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +This post took him 28 minuts to come up with after I asked him to more fully explain why he changed his opinion on shiaopi: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote: Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done.
That´s about it, I´m back to square one on shiaopi. OK so let me break this down: 1) shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup -- I discussed my issues with this logic previously 2) Forumite knew he wasn't getting anywhere -- This means nothing to me 3) Forumite didn't have much to start with and got conflicting reads -- That's not what it sounded like when he told prplhz how shiaopi is scum 4) The vets didn't agree This last point about the vets I find especially bad. Forumite references marv, HiroPro, and prplhz marvOn August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. This is all marv says on shiaopi. Marv doesn't actually give any read on shiaopi whatsoever. Marv merely expresses displeasure at Forumite's behavior. This does not count as 'disagreeing with the case' HiroProOn August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote: (directed at Mordanis) What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote: Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way. prplhzOn August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign shiaopi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? prplhz does think that Forumite's case on shiaopi is bad, but like Keirathi said, why on earth is Forumite taking prplhz's opinion into account here? First of all, prplhz has done nothing to convince anyone that he is town. And secondly, prplhz doesn't even explain why the case on shiaopi is bad. Put yourself in Forumite's shoes: 1) You have a scumread on shiaopi that you feel good enough about to announce to the thread 2) some vet comes into the thread and calls you an idiot but doesn't justify himself 3) You conclude that you must have been wrong about your scumread??? It just doesn't follow. See his thoughts on prplhz here: On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On prplhz Right now I´m in danger of falling into the OMGUS-trap, because the only thing I´ve gotten from him is the greeting and him calling me out. prplhz calling me out makes me think there´s something wrong with MY play, which makes prplhz a nulltell. I have a hard time believing that this would be any townie's reaction to essentially being called an idiot with no justification given. Other scummy points the way in which he discredits his own reads + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
I find this response suspicious. It looks like he is trying to garner sympathy and not inflate the issue. I don't know why a townie would call his own cases bad and cast doubt on his own scumhunting ability. he seems scared of marv, prplhz, me + Show Spoiler +Not sure if all of this really fits under the term buddying, but I get the feeling that he is playing a bit scared of influential players: marv-- Forumite explains his read on shiaopi only when demanded by marv -- "I agree with marvellosity, not tracking nightkills make the Tracker and Watcher too weak." -- changes his read on shiaopi based on opinion of vet marv prplhzHis interactions with prplhz seem really odd. It's like he worships prplhz. I looked through Forumite's D1 of Wheel of Fortune, where Forumite was scum and spent some time defending prplhz, so I find this especially suspicious. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. -- backs off his read on shiaopi after scolded by prplhz -- concludes that he himself must be playing bad because prplhz thinks he is scummy meOn August 08 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:
@sciberbia Fair enough, we´ve talked too much about the innocent child and need to scumhunt. Any tips on where to start? On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On me HiroPro called me out too. I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
It's actually remarkable how much of his filter I take issue with considering we are like 15 hours into D1. As I've been writing this case, I have a pretty good feeling about it. The only thing that really makes me hesitate is it seems almost too obvious, and that no scum would be so obvious on D1. Forumite doesn't seem like a bad/noob player, and I think he made it to the end of Wheel of Fortune as scum. I really want opinions on this case. If you are online, please post your thoughts. I think Forumite is more likely scum than not, and he is far and away my top scum candidate at this point, so ##Vote Forumite There are some pretty good things about this case. The strongest thing about the whole case is contained within the first section. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. scib comments thusly: "If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them."Totally valid. There are two contradicting stories. Forumite has repeatedly alluded to creating 'pressure' on ShiaoPi with his early accusation. But there's no pressure in such an empty accusation - see Shiao's repsonse just there. But Forumite replies to him that he's more likely to scumslip if he doesn't think there's any danger. So... why point the finger at him? That 100% makes someone more vigilant. There's a big contradiction in wanting to create pressure and thinking someone will scumslip if there is... no pressure! Further, I agree with scib's point about calling your own cases/confidence bad. There's no town motivation for wanting to have lower credibility with your reads, but it does provide an excuse for bad reads later (e.g. 'accidentally' mislynching a townie at some point). I dislike that Forumite has replied several times in thread but has not in fact addressed sciberbia's case against him. In fact his reply was to *slOosh*, who merely passed a little bit of comment on it, but nothing back at scib. Why? A couple of things on the flip side: I don't particularly agree with the whole vet stuff. At that point it's kinda a lose-lose situation. Foru could have gone the other way and pursued his post 1 read despite fairly influential townies being quite sceptical. In that case he would have been accused of blindly tunnelling with zero support. Like I mentioned a couple of posts ago, I don't know why scum Foru would make himself so noticeable like that when my read of his scumplay was blendy, and scib alludes to this too. Also the fact that Foru poked me about how I picked him up on it - why bring further thread exposure to the whole issue? Why bring me back to the topic? Basically I'm getting conflicting reads from various things. The whole contradiction with pressure vs more likely to scumslip without danger is a big point to me, because it makes him sound like squirmy scum who can't quite explain himself. Against this being a good player drawing attention to himself where unnecessary. People should be discussing scib's case/Forumite today please.
You make this nice post discussing Forumite and scib, and then request that everyone focus on these two as the candidates. However, then you make a post (further down on the same page) as a case against me and vote for me, completely contradicting your previous post. Why so flip-floppy?
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you misread: scib's case = Forumite, not scib AND forumite. i.e. I want people to be discussing Forumite (something you have avoided doing three times already on this page) but you were my current strongest read.
Clear?
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marv, what game are you referring to when you say that you've seen prplhz play this way before? I've never seen town prplhz be so abrasive and disinterested.
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On August 09 2012 00:59 HiroPro wrote: marv, what game are you referring to when you say that you've seen prplhz play this way before? I've never seen town prplhz be so abrasive and disinterested.
huh. you might well be right actually. I went back to look at WoF and he actually started quite actively and only later was he like "let's lynch x" without really giving reason. The two other frames of reference I had in mind are IGCOM (invite + replacement) and Liar (PM invite game) which aren't that comparable.
Alternative explanation then? prplhz is totally pissed off at rolling scum in like his 3rd consecutive mini and is totally uninterested. Hmm.
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Checking in from work.
Mordanis I don't feel that strongly about him one way or the other. I'll look closer at him and provide more detailed thoughts if he is still up for lynching when I get home this evening.
Custos Luna I'm kinda surprised marv is voting for CL when he seemed to like my case on Forumite. As far as I can tell, the bulk of marv's issue with CL is that CL didn't provide much content (until recently). Marv clearly sees this as alignment indicative, but not contributing any content isn't good town play or good scum play, so I wouldn't be comfortable voting CL on the evidence thus far.
Forumite Nobody has really dissuaded me from my case on Forumite. I still think he is most likely to flip scum. I just want to point out this further, direct contradiction since my last posts:
On August 08 2012 17:45 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 16:35 slOosh wrote: Read sciberbia's case and it's pretty good - there are some clear inconsistencies in Forumite's play, and he does seem to be "taking the temperature" of the thread according to player sentiments. I'd disagree with some of your interpretations of said players' intentions but it doesn't change the fact of Forumite's reactionary play. It could possibly be a result of lowered confidence in play due to a period of inactivity, so I'll be waiting to see how he responds to it. I think it went like; "Hey guys, ShiaoPi looks scum to me! Let´s pressure him!" "Nah, I don´t see it, let´s not pressure him." "Oh, okay, nevermind then." ... Even my first post accusing ShiaoPi of being scum was premature, it would have been better to take that initial read as a sign to watch ShiaoPi more closely, but at the time I wanted to create some pressure.
Forumite clearly states that he wanted to pressure shiaopi. If Forumite had explained his read and asked for other players' opinions, that would have constituted a legitmate attempt at pressure.
But, what Forumite did, stating that you think somebody is scum, not explaining why, and then talking about other things in the thread, is not creating pressure. Forumite's early posts don't look like at attempt to create pressure at all IMO.
On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 ShiaoPi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. Furthermore, you can see from that early Forumite quote that he was consciously trying not to make Shiaopi feel too much pressure. Am I missing something here? Because it looks like Forumite is directly contradicting his earlier stated intentions.
I still have a hard time believing that Forumite is townie.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Vote Count
Mordanis (2): ShiaoPi, Custos Luna Forumite (1): Sciberbia Custos Luna (1): Marvellosity
Mordanis is currently set to be lynched.
The deadline is in ~22.5 hours at Thursday, Aug 09 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). The person with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
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On August 09 2012 01:23 sciberbia wrote:Checking in from work. MordanisI don't feel that strongly about him one way or the other. I'll look closer at him and provide more detailed thoughts if he is still up for lynching when I get home this evening. Custos LunaI'm kinda surprised marv is voting for CL when he seemed to like my case on Forumite. As far as I can tell, the bulk of marv's issue with CL is that CL didn't provide much content (until recently). Marv clearly sees this as alignment indicative, but not contributing any content isn't good town play or good scum play, so I wouldn't be comfortable voting CL on the evidence thus far. ForumiteNobody has really dissuaded me from my case on Forumite. I still think he is most likely to flip scum. I just want to point out this further, direct contradiction since my last posts: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 17:45 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 16:35 slOosh wrote: Read sciberbia's case and it's pretty good - there are some clear inconsistencies in Forumite's play, and he does seem to be "taking the temperature" of the thread according to player sentiments. I'd disagree with some of your interpretations of said players' intentions but it doesn't change the fact of Forumite's reactionary play. It could possibly be a result of lowered confidence in play due to a period of inactivity, so I'll be waiting to see how he responds to it. I think it went like; "Hey guys, ShiaoPi looks scum to me! Let´s pressure him!" "Nah, I don´t see it, let´s not pressure him." "Oh, okay, nevermind then." ... Even my first post accusing ShiaoPi of being scum was premature, it would have been better to take that initial read as a sign to watch ShiaoPi more closely, but at the time I wanted to create some pressure. Forumite clearly states that he wanted to pressure shiaopi. If Forumite had explained his read and asked for other players' opinions, that would have constituted a legitmate attempt at pressure. But, what Forumite did, stating that you think somebody is scum, not explaining why, and then talking about other things in the thread, is not creating pressure. Forumite's early posts don't look like at attempt to create pressure at all IMO. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 01:12 ShiaoPi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. Furthermore, you can see from that early Forumite quote that he was consciously trying not to make Shiaopi feel too much pressure. Am I missing something here? Because it looks like Forumite is directly contradicting his earlier stated intentions. I still have a hard time believing that Forumite is townie.
Thanks for repeating what I stated about the Foru pressure thing, sciby I do like your case, and the reason I particularly want people to talk about is it because of the niggles I also talked about, I want to know how others view it.
Regarding CL; it's not good scumplay or good townplay, of course. From a personal standpoint this is coming hot off the heels of Bureaucracy, where towards the end of Day 1 sandroba asked town to consolidate on gonzaw, saying basically "unless you can tell me one point gonzaw cares about town, vote for him" - gonzaw also posted excuses day 1 and gonzaw was also scum. The fact that CL has posted a few times in the last few hours but still hasn't addressed Forumite at all is another negative against his name.
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On August 09 2012 00:50 marvellosity wrote: you misread: scib's case = Forumite, not scib AND forumite. i.e. I want people to be discussing Forumite (something you have avoided doing three times already on this page) but you were my current strongest read.
Clear? Not clear at all.
Why do you want people talking about one case, while you're voting for a different one? That makes so little sense that I can't wrap my head around it :o
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I read the above. I still don't really "get" it. You have some circumstantial evidence that CL is scum. Great! But how does talking about Forumite further your case against CL, whom at this point you believe is scum?
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my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking?
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On August 09 2012 01:43 marvellosity wrote: my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? I'm not nitpicking. I honestly think you're not making any sense. You don't want to get your scumread lynched, but instead want to talk about Forumite, and you try to discredit me for standing up to you about it.
About Forumite: I really don't have much to add. He's said some dumb things and been stupidly wishy-washy, but I have a hard time believing scum would be so openly bad this early on day1. Not that its impossible, but I've never seen a scum be so transparent this early.
And you dismissed it, but basically admitting that he was going to be sheeped by the "vets" still completely boggles me mind.
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On August 09 2012 01:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:43 marvellosity wrote: my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? I'm not nitpicking. I honestly think you're not making any sense. You don't want to get your scumread lynched, but instead want to talk about Forumite, and you try to discredit me for standing up to you about it. About Forumite: I really don't have much to add. He's said some dumb things and been stupidly wishy-washy, but I have a hard time believing scum would be so openly bad this early on day1. Not that its impossible, but I've never seen a scum be so transparent this early. And you dismissed it, but basically admitting that he was going to be sheeped by the "vets" still completely boggles me mind.
Are you on drugs? Where did I say that?
Scum are openly bad all the time. The just-abandoned XXIII had YourHarry throwing votes around with no explanation and he was scum. Normal Mini Mafia had prplhz throw around votes followed by a terrible cop claim and we all didn't lynch him because we didn't believe scum could be so bad, but he was scum and he was that bad.
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On August 09 2012 01:43 marvellosity wrote: my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? Are you referring to Forumite's boldness at bringing back a potentially attention grabbing issue?
On August 08 2012 20:21 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Marvel, could you explain this? I had an early scumread and said so a few times, definetly not spamming the thread about it. I also said I preferred to keep the reason to myself for the moment. What was wrong about that? Why did you want me to either reveal evidence early D1 or stop with light pressure on a random townie? Because when you said the same thing to me in Movie Mafia (?), I never responded but just took it to note, thinking oh what I'm doing is being perceived as scummy better go about it a better way, and I did that as a townie. I agree it's strange but I don't see how it is an alignment indicative strange.
But on that note now I find Forumite guilty of the exact reverse: the next time he mentions a scum (?) read:
On August 09 2012 00:14 Forumite wrote: Clarification about my opinion of Mordanis Big posts but very few, talking about me, possible VT-claim and policy, with a lot of fluff. Overall lots of text but next to no content, which looks bad. His post about "funnily enough" asking CL feels off somehow. Mordanis needs to shape up, or at least post more.
I'm anxiosly awaiting the time when CL gets back. He doesn't actually call Mordanis scum. He critiques his play in every way, but concludes with a "needs to shape up". A totally unnecessary bye for him, and moving onto waiting for CL. And he doesn't address scib's case against him but merely comments to me - either you see it as a townie pushing for your mislynch and you want that cleared up, or you think it's a scum push and you prove to everyone about it - dismissing it is a scum reaction. I think Forumite is a good D1 lynch.
##Vote: Forumite I also request that people start casting votes earlier if possible. The (for me) morning deadline is hard to be around and I want to be able to make the best decision prior. Plurality lynches are dangerous if we don't consolidate since scum votes have more sway in who they want to lynch, and I don't want my vote wasted.
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On August 09 2012 02:08 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:43 marvellosity wrote: my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? Are you referring to Forumite's boldness at bringing back a potentially attention grabbing issue?
yeah - why would he bring it up with me again? It just goes to highlight the whole thing. What do you think?
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On August 09 2012 00:50 marvellosity wrote: you misread: scib's case = Forumite, not scib AND forumite. i.e. I want people to be discussing Forumite (something you have avoided doing three times already on this page) but you were my current strongest read.
Clear?
Ah, understood.
I'm not intentionally avoiding the topic of Forumite, I just don't have much to say about it at this point. I understand the case, and it does have some merit. However, I have been in Forumite's position before as town, so I'm still trying to decide if it was blind aggression to generate discussion (and as a result he has now been forced to backpedal), or just general scum activity. I will be rereading to try and get a better idea/feel.
I do wish to hear from Mord/prplhz soon though
On August 09 2012 01:57 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:54 Keirathi wrote:On August 09 2012 01:43 marvellosity wrote: my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? I'm not nitpicking. I honestly think you're not making any sense. You don't want to get your scumread lynched, but instead want to talk about Forumite, and you try to discredit me for standing up to you about it. About Forumite: I really don't have much to add. He's said some dumb things and been stupidly wishy-washy, but I have a hard time believing scum would be so openly bad this early on day1. Not that its impossible, but I've never seen a scum be so transparent this early. And you dismissed it, but basically admitting that he was going to be sheeped by the "vets" still completely boggles me mind. Are you on drugs? Where did I say that? Scum are openly bad all the time. The just-abandoned XXIII had YourHarry throwing votes around with no explanation and he was scum. Normal Mini Mafia had prplhz throw around votes followed by a terrible cop claim and we all didn't lynch him because we didn't believe scum could be so bad, but he was scum and he was that bad.
That's a rather ignorant blanket statement. You have clearly not been utterly destroyed by some of the scum teams on this forum.
Also, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to look back and pluck examples like that, but there are just as many, if not more, examples of townies being bad and throwing votes around.
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I'm not going to get into a stupid flame war with you.
You're right about YourHarry, but that was exactly how he played town as well so it made some modicum of sense for him to play like that. I'll go look at Normal Mini though, since I don't know anything about prplhz.
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Kei - Normal Mini 2 for reference, the one recently hosted by GMarshal
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On August 09 2012 02:10 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 01:57 marvellosity wrote:On August 09 2012 01:54 Keirathi wrote:On August 09 2012 01:43 marvellosity wrote: my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? I'm not nitpicking. I honestly think you're not making any sense. You don't want to get your scumread lynched, but instead want to talk about Forumite, and you try to discredit me for standing up to you about it. About Forumite: I really don't have much to add. He's said some dumb things and been stupidly wishy-washy, but I have a hard time believing scum would be so openly bad this early on day1. Not that its impossible, but I've never seen a scum be so transparent this early. And you dismissed it, but basically admitting that he was going to be sheeped by the "vets" still completely boggles me mind. Are you on drugs? Where did I say that? Scum are openly bad all the time. The just-abandoned XXIII had YourHarry throwing votes around with no explanation and he was scum. Normal Mini Mafia had prplhz throw around votes followed by a terrible cop claim and we all didn't lynch him because we didn't believe scum could be so bad, but he was scum and he was that bad. That's a rather ignorant blanket statement. You have clearly not been utterly destroyed by some of the scum teams on this forum. Also, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to look back and pluck examples like that, but there are just as many, if not more, examples of townies being bad and throwing votes around.
Custos - you're missing what I was saying. I'm not saying all scum are bad. Kei made the point that he didn't think scum would be bad so early. I was providing counterexamples.
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On August 09 2012 02:10 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 02:08 slOosh wrote:On August 09 2012 01:43 marvellosity wrote: my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? Are you referring to Forumite's boldness at bringing back a potentially attention grabbing issue? yeah - why would he bring it up with me again? It just goes to highlight the whole thing. What do you think? Like I said, it is strange but I don't find it a strong alignment indicative strange. It could be a town action trying to come to mutual understanding with another player, or it could be scum action fearful of repercussions if left unsaid and so addressing it early. I mentioned how I chose to internally take the advice (if I recall correctly), but scum could also do that in fear of being exposed. In either case I don't find it weighty enough to override my read on his general play.
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@HiroPro Hey Hiro, could we get some current opinions / reads from you?
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@Marv: oh yea, I remember this game. I missed the first day or two of it, but read the later days.
So point taken, scum can play really..."badly" on day1. How often does it happen though? I can link you to a lot more examples where the person with the most Scummy Marks on day1 was actually a townie.
This is part of why I always hate about the day1 lynch. Do I just vote the person who has the most scummy points? Or do I WIFOM around it because playing badly as scum just doesn't make sense most of the time?
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On August 09 2012 02:42 Keirathi wrote: @Marv: oh yea, I remember this game. I missed the first day or two of it, but read the later days.
So point taken, scum can play really..."badly" on day1. How often does it happen though? I can link you to a lot more examples where the person with the most Scummy Marks on day1 was actually a townie.
This is part of why I always hate about the day1 lynch. Do I just vote the person who has the most scummy points? Or do I WIFOM around it because playing badly as scum just doesn't make sense most of the time?
yeah, I get what you're saying. What I'm getting at is that you should try not to WIFOM yourself out of lynches. The fact is that town and scum can play badly or well day 1 or otherwise. So all other things being equal, the guy who plays like scum has a decent chance of flipping scum.
That very same game (Normal 2), I WIFOMed myself out of yet another scum lynch day 2 with Zentor, because I simply could not believe scum would play so scummily and pick a fight with me... but again, it was in fact the case.
If you're not gonna lynch someone for playing scummily day 1, what are you going to lynch for?
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Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
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On August 09 2012 02:51 marvellosity wrote: If you're not gonna lynch someone for playing scummily day 1, what are you going to lynch for?
That IS the problem, isn't it?
In I Can't Believe, Vivax was easily the "scummiest" person day1. But his play really fit his town meta (and he was a blue), so I went with DropBear who I felt was playing scummily (and actually WAS scum), but in much less obvious ways.
But in NMM XXII, I went with the scummiest player in Golbat. I was 100% wrong and lynched a blue.
So, I don't know what the best way to make the decision on who to vote for is. Forumite is the most obviously scummy so far in this game, but my personal past experiences with day1 lynches have left me gunshy towards voting the most obvious scum.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote: Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
This post of DoYouHas makes me suspicious of him.
1) Perhaps I am biased, but I don't like his reasons for soft defending Forumite. I don't know how announcing a read but keeping it to yourself is 'transparent' and 'trying to move the thread forward'. His stance on Forumite seems wishy/washy and I'm not a fan. 2) He says that Mordanis reads as 'very likely scum', but then he votes prplhz for lurking? wtf? If you think somebody is very likely scum, and they already have two votes on them, you as a townie should add your vote, not vote for a lurker to 'keep him in the spotlight'.
FoS DoYouHas
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On August 09 2012 03:28 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote: Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
This post of DoYouHas makes me suspicious of him. 1) Perhaps I am biased, but I don't like his reasons for soft defending Forumite. I don't know how announcing a read but keeping it to yourself is 'transparent' and 'trying to move the thread forward'. His stance on Forumite seems wishy/washy and I'm not a fan. 2) He says that Mordanis reads as 'very likely scum', but then he votes prplhz for lurking? wtf? If you think somebody is very likely scum, and they already have two votes on them, you as a townie should add your vote, not vote for a lurker to 'keep him in the spotlight'. FoS DoYouHas
To be fair, that's pretty much what marvel did with Forumite/me. I'm not sure how suspicious marvel still finds me, but he has at least been very vocal and forthright with his thoughts as opposed to DoYouHas.
I will add a point to your thoughts though. Day 1, it is extremely difficult to distinguish scummy play from poor/misinformed town play. In my eyes, it is not the blatantly bad people that need to be as heavily focused on - they will continue to be bad and always be under the microscope. It is the complacent, quiet, and appeasing ones that are worrisome for town because they can slide under the radar and stay there.
In DYH's posts, he hasn't really added much at all. In his 3 content posts, he mainly focused on double-lynch discussion, prplhz's 2 useless posts, and really nothing else. There has been very little added from his posts. Nothing really new has been brought up. He's agreeing with arguments without building upon it in an attempt to keep blame off of him.
I do agree with DYH in that prpl needs to show up, but DYH also needs to be watched closely.
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On August 09 2012 00:37 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote:HiroProOn August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote: (directed at Mordanis) What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote: Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way. mm, you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't agreeing with the case - there's no contradiction there (setup and policy aren't the same thing). What I was more interested in was that two of Forumite's main points were that ShiaoPi wasn't sharing his own thoughts and was trying to "shut down discussion". However, right after Forumite made his inital accusation, Shiao was willing to discuss the setup, which doesn't really fit with his points. I wanted to know whether that changed his read. I was ninja'd, I only read his first post before replying. Yes, his later posts did make me undure about my initial read, but I didn't want to retreat immediately.
@scrib Is there anything specific you want answered by me? I hear people saying that I haven't responded to your case, but I thought I had done that allready, although while replying to others.
@CL Any other suspicions other than mord?
With how the game looks right now, I want to lynch prplhz or mord. Prplhz doesn't play anything like I'm used to seing him play (as town), and mord is lurking too much for his few big but empty posts.
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Wow, I picked the anti-timing to sleep -.-
I'll do some defense first, because it takes less time, and in a while I'll come back with my reads so far.
First things first: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 16:00 slOosh wrote:Hey guys, didn't anticipate the early deadline so yea ... Anyways, any of the blue roles can be used to the "innocent child" effect. Scum are extremely limited in their ability to fakeclaim because it is a blue-wise open setup (we might not know the 2nd blue identity but we can still cc any blue claim instantly). I recommend whoever is blue to consider this and not hastily throw away a potential advantage here by claiming early (mainly tracker but same thing extends to watcher/cop). No go on double lynch. Too exploitable / volatile in a game this small. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Hey Mordanis, could you explain this contradiction? If this was an attempt to draw scum out, you have now just alerted them all with the second post, which goes against what you said in the first post. You said you are currently null on Forumite yet it seems like you are leaning a certain direction in your read of him. I don't see how noticing what seems to be planned play tells scum how to play. Plans scare the shit out of me because, though they aren't alignment-indicative, they tend to be very unpredictable in my experience. I think its much better play to simply hunt scum through analysis. Furthermore, saying that I'm wary of plans cannot inform scum strategy, since scum always need an overlying plan. Unless the scum abandon their QT or use it purely for social interaction, their play will be somewhat "planned". Also, townies are just as capable as scum to plan their play, so "planned play" isn't a scum-tell, its just something that scares me.
Moving on, there's ShiaoPi's case on me + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote:I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis:Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote: -snip- Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis First off, I never said that I was against policy talking. On the contrary, I think that establishing a common attitude of how to use power roles, how to use common mechanics and new mechanics, and some other things. The problem with talking policy is that if you do it wrong it can inform scum strategy. If you say "I find that 90% of the time I see a certain behavior, the person exhibiting that behavior is scum", you've told scum what to avoid in order to avoid detection. On a similar note, in several of the games I've played in, people have said they won't lynch lurkers unless they basically claim scum. This is really dumb because it gives scum an easy way to get into the mid to late game without anything to hold against them, plus it disincentivizes contribution to the scum-hunt. Talking policy in this way is very harmful to town.
About my questions to CL, I honestly don't see any wishy-washiness. I said that it didn't make sense to claim town and tell VTs not to claim VT in the same post, but that it doesn't seem particularly scummy. I don't really see any reason for scum to do this. Later I said that if you are claiming town you are really claiming VT because it makes sense. If you claim town, you are saying that you're either green or blue. If you claim a blue role at this point, you're either really bad or scum. It makes much more sense to interpret someone claiming town as claiming VT. This does not contradict what I said earlier. Going further, there is no analysis of why potential wishy-washiness would be alignment indicative.
Finally, Shiao mentions that he thinks that I should have voted for him because I didn't agree with him that policy talking is unnecessary or unimportant or even scummy. I don't see how Shiao can criticize my logic when a large part of his reason for voting for me is based on how I did not vote arbitrarily for someone because I didn't agree with them.
BRB, I'm going to go get some lunch, and then I'll do some scum-hunting.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@Mord:
Is it just me feeling this way or did you defend yourself using the things (fluffs/filler and policy talk with no content) I critisized about you? I also do not understand what you are talking about in your last paragraph. I did not say I am voting for you because you did not arbitrarily vote for someone on terms of disagreement. I have said that you are simply doing nothing for town, while appearing to be contributing due to the large size and redundancy of your posts.
You better do some good scum-hunting in order for me to get off your back.
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@mordanis You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched.
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On August 09 2012 03:28 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote: Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
This post of DoYouHas makes me suspicious of him. 1) Perhaps I am biased, but I don't like his reasons for soft defending Forumite. I don't know how announcing a read but keeping it to yourself is 'transparent' and 'trying to move the thread forward'. His stance on Forumite seems wishy/washy and I'm not a fan. 2) He says that Mordanis reads as 'very likely scum', but then he votes prplhz for lurking? wtf? If you think somebody is very likely scum, and they already have two votes on them, you as a townie should add your vote, not vote for a lurker to 'keep him in the spotlight'. FoS DoYouHas
1) I found Forumite's initial suspicion of Shiao to be extremely transparent, honestly, what possible reasons could he have had that early in the game? Either he picked Shiao arbitrarily for early pressure as a conversation starter or he picked up on something in Shiao's initial posts. And those were the explanations he gave us. The timings of his explanations were a bit off and his pandering to more well known players came off badly, but lets look at the rest of his filter. He has been defending himself (how he handles this is the heart of your case I believe scrib). But he also is addressing most of the topics that have been brought up, he is asking players questions, and he is making his stances known. That moves the thread forward. My stance isn't wishy-washy, it was quite clear. He mishandled some of his play but I feel his motivation is more likely to be town.
2) You are being short sighted and misrepresenting my reasons for voting prplz. His lurking is only a 4th of why I voted him, even though it is an important 4th.
1. Just based off his 2 posts, if that was all I was considering, would make me guess scum over town for him. I have already mentioned how I don't like his first post and his second post seemed designed to tear Forumite down rather than to gain information. Maybe if he followed up, but he didn't. 2. As mentioned by 1-2 people, he is not playing into his town meta. 3. He is lurking, which hurts town and is worse because he had potential to help lead town. 4. I needed to get this vote out there now because prplhz was getting pushed out of consideration for the lynch, which is wrong.
I have more reasons for voting prplhz than I do Mord right now, and my opinion is only reenforced as time goes by without prplhz contributing.
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On August 09 2012 04:03 Mordanis wrote:Wow, I picked the anti-timing to sleep -.- I'll do some defense first, because it takes less time, and in a while I'll come back with my reads so far. First things first: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 16:00 slOosh wrote:Hey guys, didn't anticipate the early deadline so yea ... Anyways, any of the blue roles can be used to the "innocent child" effect. Scum are extremely limited in their ability to fakeclaim because it is a blue-wise open setup (we might not know the 2nd blue identity but we can still cc any blue claim instantly). I recommend whoever is blue to consider this and not hastily throw away a potential advantage here by claiming early (mainly tracker but same thing extends to watcher/cop). No go on double lynch. Too exploitable / volatile in a game this small. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Hey Mordanis, could you explain this contradiction? If this was an attempt to draw scum out, you have now just alerted them all with the second post, which goes against what you said in the first post. You said you are currently null on Forumite yet it seems like you are leaning a certain direction in your read of him. I don't see how noticing what seems to be planned play tells scum how to play. Plans scare the shit out of me because, though they aren't alignment-indicative, they tend to be very unpredictable in my experience. I think its much better play to simply hunt scum through analysis. Furthermore, saying that I'm wary of plans cannot inform scum strategy, since scum always need an overlying plan. Unless the scum abandon their QT or use it purely for social interaction, their play will be somewhat "planned". Also, townies are just as capable as scum to plan their play, so "planned play" isn't a scum-tell, its just something that scares me.Moving on, there's ShiaoPi's case on me + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote:I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis:Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote: -snip- Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis First off, I never said that I was against policy talking. On the contrary, I think that establishing a common attitude of how to use power roles, how to use common mechanics and new mechanics, and some other things. The problem with talking policy is that if you do it wrong it can inform scum strategy. If you say "I find that 90% of the time I see a certain behavior, the person exhibiting that behavior is scum", you've told scum what to avoid in order to avoid detection. On a similar note, in several of the games I've played in, people have said they won't lynch lurkers unless they basically claim scum. This is really dumb because it gives scum an easy way to get into the mid to late game without anything to hold against them, plus it disincentivizes contribution to the scum-hunt. Talking policy in this way is very harmful to town. About my questions to CL, I honestly don't see any wishy-washiness. I said that it didn't make sense to claim town and tell VTs not to claim VT in the same post, but that it doesn't seem particularly scummy. I don't really see any reason for scum to do this. Later I said that if you are claiming town you are really claiming VT because it makes sense. If you claim town, you are saying that you're either green or blue. If you claim a blue role at this point, you're either really bad or scum. It makes much more sense to interpret someone claiming town as claiming VT. This does not contradict what I said earlier. Going further, there is no analysis of why potential wishy-washiness would be alignment indicative. Finally, Shiao mentions that he thinks that I should have voted for him because I didn't agree with him that policy talking is unnecessary or unimportant or even scummy. I don't see how Shiao can criticize my logic when a large part of his reason for voting for me is based on how I did not vote arbitrarily for someone because I didn't agree with them. BRB, I'm going to go get some lunch, and then I'll do some scum-hunting.
Townies are NOT as capable of making plans as scum. You're talking out of your ass now. Scum have a private means with which to make plans with people they all know are with each other. Town is limited to the thread with the constant threat of dissent due to a warranted lack of trust caused by the burden of misinformation.
P.S.: your posts are awful to read and even worse to try and quote. Being verbose does not make your argument better.
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On August 09 2012 04:34 Forumite wrote: @mordanis You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched. Not that I disagree with you that his posts have fluff, but take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315&user=137393
This is just his posting style. He always used a lot of words to get his point across in that game. I don't necessarily condone the practice, because his posts were generally hard to read, but to blindly condemn him for it is just as bad. All it takes is a little research to see that this isn't some new scheme he's using to try to pull the rug over our eyes.
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@ShiaoPi: And you. You obs'd that game. You should know that his posting style fits with his general playstyle, so using that as a basis to vote him is silly. Do you think the content is different? Do you just want him to change his playstyle? Or are you a scum and know that he was almost an easy mislynch because of his verbosity in XXII and you think you can argue good enough to get it this time?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 09 2012 04:54 Keirathi wrote: @ShiaoPi: And you. You obs'd that game. You should know that his posting style fits with his general playstyle, so using that as a basis to vote him is silly. Do you think the content is different? Do you just want him to change his playstyle? Or are you a scum and know that he was almost an easy mislynch because of his verbosity in XXII and you think you can argue good enough to get it this time?
you pick many holes but have yet to take a proper stance
care to do so?
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@Forumite I know you asked me a question, but I don't have time to address it right now.
On August 09 2012 04:34 DoYouHas wrote: I have more reasons for voting prplhz than I do Mord right now, and my opinion is only reenforced as time goes by without prplhz contributing.
@DYH Please answer the following question for me: who do you think is more likely to be scum: Mordanis or prplhz? I'm not asking about who you have more reasons for voting for, or who you want to keep in the spotlight. If you had to bet your life savings right now on who is scum, who would you bet on?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
##Unvote
Custos is actually getting involved in town affairs
##Vote: prplhz
prplhz very much is not.
I'm going to look more into the Forumite situation. Need to mull over what slOosh said to me and also see if I can make anything out of what seems to be a lot of 'meh' from people about it.
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On August 09 2012 04:45 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 04:34 Forumite wrote: @mordanis You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched. Not that I disagree with you that his posts have fluff, but take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315&user=137393This is just his posting style. He always used a lot of words to get his point across in that game. I don't necessarily condone the practice, because his posts were generally hard to read, but to blindly condemn him for it is just as bad. All it takes is a little research to see that this isn't some new scheme he's using to try to pull the rug over our eyes. I don't care, he must be able to make it clear to us what his reads are. It could just as well be him posting in hexadecimal code, or with posts of exactly two sentences that always rhyme. Too much fluff makes it hard to understand what he means, that's not transparency.
Note: risk.nuke is lurking
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:27 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 04:45 Keirathi wrote:On August 09 2012 04:34 Forumite wrote: @mordanis You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched. Not that I disagree with you that his posts have fluff, but take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315&user=137393This is just his posting style. He always used a lot of words to get his point across in that game. I don't necessarily condone the practice, because his posts were generally hard to read, but to blindly condemn him for it is just as bad. All it takes is a little research to see that this isn't some new scheme he's using to try to pull the rug over our eyes. I don't care, he must be able to make it clear to us what his reads are. It could just as well be him posting in hexadecimal code, or with posts of exactly two sentences that always rhyme. Too much fluff makes it hard to understand what he means, that's not transparency. Note: risk.nuke is lurking
you ask him to make his scumreads clear yet with ShiaoPi you yourself were nowhere near
In all seriousness, can you answer the point raised by scib/me about voting to pressure VS more likely to scumslip not under pressure?
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Let's kill prplhz. As town he may act overwhelmed at times but he certainly doesn't display the attitude or lack of interest that he does here.
This is much more like his scum games (Normal Mini II and Movie Star) where he acts annoyed and angry for no reason and does nothing.
As for Forumite, I'll wait and see. The contradiction that sciberbia and slOosh talk about (wanting to pressure Shiao but at the same time withholding reasoning because ) is certainly present but he's brought a lot more attention onto himself actively than I would expect from a scum player and definitely looks interested in town affairs. We shouldn't lynch him today.
##Vote prplhz
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EBWOP: because he wants to see what he does without pressure
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@Kei: Yes, I know his playstyle well, playing with him for the 2nd time already, it does not mean I can give him a freepass since he is wishy washy also as scum. I point it out as everyone should if they find someone with that much filler/fluff. But I also know that he can be precise, so I am waiting for his scumhunt to see. If he does a good enough job to convince me of his town-alignment than I will switch my vote to other candidates such as the lurky ones (risk, prphlz) or Forumite, although I would be more hesitant to vote him.
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On August 09 2012 05:12 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 04:54 Keirathi wrote: @ShiaoPi: And you. You obs'd that game. You should know that his posting style fits with his general playstyle, so using that as a basis to vote him is silly. Do you think the content is different? Do you just want him to change his playstyle? Or are you a scum and know that he was almost an easy mislynch because of his verbosity in XXII and you think you can argue good enough to get it this time? you pick many holes but have yet to take a proper stance care to do so? On Mord? Not particularly, no.
His posts are extremely verbose, but so were his posts in XXII. 100% Null tell The whole policy vs heuristics thing was a misunderstanding that I believe you cleared up. They just aren't the same thing.
Nothing he has done so far jumps out at me as particularly scummy. Both of those things are very similar to townie Mord in XXII, which Shiao obs'd, which was why I questioned him. I find that much more scummy than anything Mord has done to this point.
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Just as a quick aside, I was really only defending my logic and thoughts that you said didn't make sense because all you said was "He's wishy-washy, he posts 'filler', he doesn't agree with me, ergo scum" It is a non-sequitur. I pointed out that your case didn't make logical sense. Since that was all you were attacking, that's all I could rebut. Unless you want me to explain how "It's like he is purposefully filling up his posts to make them harder to read and harder to understand", in which all I can say is that I like to post abstractions because they are more generalizeable and therefore more useful in more situations, so if I don't say something that applies to only one situation, I don't think that's a bad thing.
@ CL: Just because townies aren't capable of planning as scum doesn't make them incapable of planning as townies. As a specific example, in NMM 14 Release (town) went fishing for a kp by tunelling one player all night cycle. When he wasn't killed, he assumed that the player he had tunneled wasn't scum, and thought of that person as confirmed town. He was wrong. He made a plan to find a scum, and it backfired and would have lost the game had it not ended earlier due to a hardcore lurker. This is a large part of why plans scare me~ they backfire as often as not if hatched by a townie, and they're really susceptible to WIFOM, which is a great thing for scum to hide behind.
Moving to the pertinent bits, I think the scummiest player so far has been ShiaoPi. + Show Spoiler +Before anyone claims OMGUS, please read through. I am not accusing Shiao because I'm pissed, but because his play seems aligned with scum goals
He starts the game off with a really bad post. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
As the first post of any kind, you have to think about its purpose. Regardless of how a game progresses, it always starts with policy-talking. There is simply nothing to talk about before this. Really, what do people talk about at the beginning of a game if there is no policy talk? I see this as anti-discussion, which obviously helps scum. Furthermore, by posting zero content while coming out against policy, Shiao is trying to grab town cred. Trying to gain town's trust seems more scum motivated than town-motivated. Town wants scum found, doesn't really care if one VT dies in the process. The life of any scum is much more valued though, so survival is much more important. This makes town trust much more valuable to scum than to town. Overall, this is pretty suspicious.
+ Show Spoiler +As a digression, literally less than an hour after yelling that policy is bad, Shiao is discussing the multi-lynch mechanic. In fact, Shiao makes 8 posts centered on policy after coming out as anti-policy. And he calls my play wishy-washy ^^
His next non-policy non-probing post is his accusation of me. + Show Spoiler [for your convenience] +On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote:I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis:Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote: -snip- Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis My problem with this is that he is not hunting for mistakes, not scum-slips or scum motivations. Everyone makes mistakes, so looking for mistakes seems like a really bad way to hunt for scum. Now in my previous games, I'd have dismissed this as an inexperienced townie who simply doesn't know how to hunt scum. Shiao does not fit this however. He has played several non-newbie games, which means that he has much more experience than I and Keir. Should he not then be capable of hunting scum via analysis, and not pushing for a lynch based on bad logic?
Even further, this is the first true case of the game, unless you count Forumite's claim that Shiao is scum. Again, posting the first case of the game is generally a good way to gain town trust in my experience. So far Shiao has seemed pretty desperate to gain a place of trust within the town. The reason I have been focusing on this is because of a post by Marv in the obs QT for NMM 22, in which Shiao has been fairly active, where he says + Show Spoiler [names edited out for active game prote…] +yes, that was (Player A)'s big mistake. Miscalculation of the consequences of doing so and of(Player B)'s town-standing (which was very high; perhaps (Player A) got misled that (Player C)'s attacks on (Player B) = not high standing? but that wasn't the case)
Effectively you should not pick fights with townies who have a higher town-standing than you. (Player A) had a decent town-standing at the time but not as high as (Player B).
Further to this point, it goes to show the very high value of being super townie as scum (i.e. how i play). Because then if someone decides to take you on, town sides with you. The higher your town-standing, the more town are willing to passively accept your arguments without too much criticism.
Lylo in LIV was a really good example of this - I used pure WIFOM to explain away the fact I didn't die the night before and town just lapped it up because I was so established. But if you haven't got high town credit you can't get away with that kinda stuff at all. While this doesn't prove that this is ShiaoPi's strategy or that he read it, it does prove that it is a fairly common scum strategy, and ShiaoPi seems to be going with it.
@ Forumite, I hope this is clear enough for you: ##FoS ShiaoPi For now, I need to go back and do some more analyzing and see SP's response before voting.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 09 2012 05:37 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:12 marvellosity wrote:On August 09 2012 04:54 Keirathi wrote: @ShiaoPi: And you. You obs'd that game. You should know that his posting style fits with his general playstyle, so using that as a basis to vote him is silly. Do you think the content is different? Do you just want him to change his playstyle? Or are you a scum and know that he was almost an easy mislynch because of his verbosity in XXII and you think you can argue good enough to get it this time? you pick many holes but have yet to take a proper stance care to do so? On Mord? Not particularly, no. His posts are extremely verbose, but so were his posts in XXII. 100% Null tell The whole policy vs heuristics thing was a misunderstanding that I believe you cleared up. They just aren't the same thing. Nothing he has done so far jumps out at me as particularly scummy. Both of those things are very similar to townie Mord in XXII, which Shiao obs'd, which was why I questioned him. I find that much more scummy than anything Mord has done to this point.
No, I meant anyone/anything. Who is your strongest read and why?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
Mordanis, you're going to have to explain to me how posting something with zero content while coming out against policy is trying to buy town cred in your eyes.
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On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote: Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming.
He starts the game off with a really bad post. + Show Spoiler + As the first post of any kind, you have to think about its purpose. Regardless of how a game progresses, it always starts with policy-talking. There is simply nothing to talk about before this. Really, what do people talk about at the beginning of a game if there is no policy talk? I see this as anti-discussion, which obviously helps scum. Furthermore, by posting zero content while coming out against policy, Shiao is trying to grab town cred. Trying to gain town's trust seems more scum motivated than town-motivated. Town wants scum found, doesn't really care if one VT dies in the process. The life of any scum is much more valued though, so survival is much more important. This makes town trust much more valuable to scum than to town. Overall, this is pretty suspicious.
Explain.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
HiroPro your objection was better than mine. fuuuu
mine was valid but yours especially so
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OK, the reason for the contradiction is quite simple. When I wrote the first thing, I hadn't looked too hard at that post and I was criticizing Forumite for calling something scummy without saying why. If you say something is scummy, the burden of explanation is on you, you need to "prove it". Since the post in question wasn't a blatant slip, I needed explanation for why he thought what he thought before before I would accept his accusation. Later though, when I had time to analyze it myself, I found mostly scum motivation for posting it.
Marv: I'm assuming that you're referring to my analysis of his first post as well. The reason I believe that his first post is an attempt to buy town cred is because it is generically pro-town without offering any details or actually helping town. Needing to seem pro-town but not contributing to discussion is patently scummy, as it is supposed to give him all the benefits of a high level of trust while stalling D1 discussion.
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Hey guys
Forumite is the scummiest in the thread right now. There was only one right answer to my question about what his ShiaoPi accusations were about and that was "I was just trying to create discussion", but instead Forumite actually says that he was testing if his scumsenses were working after a break. This makes absolutely no sense because Forumite did not throw any sort of accusation together. This seems like scum making something up under light pressure and it just collapses under him, he is trying to make it seem like what he did was absolutely townie and only townie instead of just telling the truth, only scum are that afraid of appearing slightly non-townie that they make up an excuse like that.
I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day).
##Vote Forumite
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On August 09 2012 05:23 sciberbia wrote: @Forumite I know you asked me a question, but I don't have time to address it right now. I asked you if you had any pressing questions for me about your case on me, but I assume you don´t.
On August 09 2012 05:30 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 05:27 Forumite wrote:On August 09 2012 04:45 Keirathi wrote:On August 09 2012 04:34 Forumite wrote: @mordanis You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched. Not that I disagree with you that his posts have fluff, but take a look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315&user=137393This is just his posting style. He always used a lot of words to get his point across in that game. I don't necessarily condone the practice, because his posts were generally hard to read, but to blindly condemn him for it is just as bad. All it takes is a little research to see that this isn't some new scheme he's using to try to pull the rug over our eyes. I don't care, he must be able to make it clear to us what his reads are. It could just as well be him posting in hexadecimal code, or with posts of exactly two sentences that always rhyme. Too much fluff makes it hard to understand what he means, that's not transparency. Note: risk.nuke is lurking you ask him to make his scumreads clear yet with ShiaoPi you yourself were nowhere near In all seriousness, can you answer the point raised by scib/me about voting to pressure VS more likely to scumslip not under pressure? Are you talking about how I didn´t follow up my initial accusation of scum with real pressure? I accused him of being scum based in the first post. Since then I realised that my initial my read was unsure and my case weak. Once I had called ShiaoPi scum on weak grounds it was a lose-lose situation. I could drop it and look wishy-washy, or keep it up and look like I was secretive with important information. I opted for the second one, because then at least scum would have to keep guessing, and I might keep a bit of pressure on them. That´s why I didn´t like that you asked me to reveal or shut up, and why I questioned you about it earlier today. It made me (that post was a big part of the reason I dropped the "case") abandon my plan and show that I really had nothing on ShiaoPi.
On August 09 2012 05:38 Mordanis wrote: @ Forumite, I hope this is clear enough for you: ##FoS ShiaoPi
Quite clear, at least that part. Are you confident enough in your read to put down your vote too?
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Not yet. Still reading through more.
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On August 09 2012 06:19 prplhz wrote: Hey guys
Forumite is the scummiest in the thread right now. There was only one right answer to my question about what his ShiaoPi accusations were about and that was "I was just trying to create discussion", but instead Forumite actually says that he was testing if his scumsenses were working after a break. This makes absolutely no sense because Forumite did not throw any sort of accusation together. This seems like scum making something up under light pressure and it just collapses under him, he is trying to make it seem like what he did was absolutely townie and only townie instead of just telling the truth, only scum are that afraid of appearing slightly non-townie that they make up an excuse like that.
I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day).
##Vote Forumite prplhz, you are back!
You are correct, the only good answer is "create discussion", and I knew that allready, but that wasn´t what happened. I thought I was on to something, I was wrong, and that mistake has been one of the most important topics of D1. I did create discussion in the end, but it wasn´t my intention. My intention was to find scum and pressure him, but it backfired, tough but true.
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On August 09 2012 06:25 Forumite wrote: Are you talking about how I didn´t follow up my initial accusation of scum with real pressure? I accused him of being scum based in the first post. Since then I realised that my initial my read was unsure and my case weak. Once I had called ShiaoPi scum on weak grounds it was a lose-lose situation. I could drop it and look wishy-washy, or keep it up and look like I was secretive with important information. I opted for the second one, because then at least scum would have to keep guessing, and I might keep a bit of pressure on them. That´s why I didn´t like that you asked me to reveal or shut up, and why I questioned you about it earlier today. It made me (that post was a big part of the reason I dropped the "case") abandon my plan and show that I really had nothing on ShiaoPi.
@Forumite I don't think that is what marv was asking about.
Can you explain why you didn't simply explain your (supposedly legitimate) read on shiaopi in your first couple posts where you called him scum?
Please clearly explain 1) Why you thought it was a good idea to announce your read 2) Why you thought it was a good idea to not explain your read
@prplhz If you are going to lurk, and admit to being lurkish, could you at least give a good reason for your lurking? Are you just disinterested in the game for some reason? Will you contribute more in future?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Just read Mord's case on me.
looks like I have to repeat what I said already towards Forumite:
On August 08 2012 06:42 ShiaoPi wrote: -snip- I wanted to get started, so I posted, probably should have proofread it to avoid misunderstandings like this one. I am not against shutting down policytalk completely, I have already done some of it myslef by now. I was more stating the intent to not go overboard with it, since scumhunting is our priority.
I wanted to get going and posted, nothing more nothing less. If I wanted to shut down policy stuff and discussion in general, why did I post a good deal of policy talk myself? Also how the hell is that supposed to gain town cred? It had more the effect of being called out immediately first by marv, then Forumite now you. Does that add up as "gaining town cred" to you?
On the argument of me not searching for scum properly with my case, I clearly state that I see it as attempts to seem contributing while doing nothing at all, it also clutters up the thread. The most damning evidence seems to be the timing of my post as being the "first case". You show a lack of careful reading here, if sciberbia's post on Forumite was no case than I have no clue what my post was. Aren't you trying too hard to twist my posts in some scheme of gaining towncred when there is actually none?
Also if you are convinced that I am scum, why don't you put down that vote? Keeping it to yourself right now does not really have an effect.
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Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia).
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On August 09 2012 06:42 sciberbia wrote: @Forumite I don't think that is what marv was asking about.
Can you explain why you didn't simply explain your (supposedly legitimate) read on shiaopi in your first couple posts where you called him scum?
Please clearly explain 1) Why you thought it was a good idea to announce your read 2) Why you thought it was a good idea to not explain your read 1) I thought it was a good idea to call him out, to pressure him for a bit. 2) I thought leaving him to wonder what he had done wrong for a while was better, that might also give me a few more posts to build a case on, making it stronger once finally revealed. I didn´t see a need to reveal everything right away, so I didn´t.
On August 09 2012 06:46 prplhz wrote: Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia). I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post.
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On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote:[...] Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:46 prplhz wrote: Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia). I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post. Your excuse is a lie, you were not testing out your reads.
You are now trying to take credit for something which you inadvertently caused which makes no sense at all. You appear to be overly worried about what people think about you and your explanations don't make sense. This is why you are the scummiest in the thread.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
ugh this Forumite stuff is soooo dense.
can't tell if mordanis is scum or just made a really atrocious case. as you're here, what did you make of mordanis' case on ShiaoPi, prplhz?
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On August 09 2012 08:02 marvellosity wrote: ugh this Forumite stuff is soooo dense.
What do you mean by dense? Also, I'd like to hear who you currently think is most likely scum.
On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote: I thought leaving him to wonder what he had done wrong for a while was better, that might also give me a few more posts to build a case on, making it stronger once finally revealed. I didn´t see a need to reveal everything right away, so I didn´t.
For some reason, I find this quote extremely funny. Just thought I'd point it out. I'm really not impressed by Forumite's explanation, and as prplhz pointed out, the line about "just testing my scumsense" seems like another contradictory attempt at an explanation.
I'll be afk for the next 2 hours or so.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
scib, I meant all the questions/explanations/possible contradictions in the explanations for Forumite's play.
Most likely to be scum? ick. to be continued.
For when you return - please talk about Mordanis' case on shiaopi.
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On August 09 2012 07:53 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote:[...] On August 09 2012 06:46 prplhz wrote: Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia). I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post. Your excuse is a lie, you were not testing out your reads. You are now trying to take credit for something which you inadvertently caused which makes no sense at all. You appear to be overly worried about what people think about you and your explanations don't make sense. This is why you are the scummiest in the thread. Yeah, this isn´t the prplhz I´m used to. I can take the fact that you think I´m scum, but I can´t understant why you are not reading what I write and are deliberately misunderstand things. Do you really think I´m trying to take town-credit for being the cause of a discussion about wether or not I´m scum? I don´t think you have any interest in this game at all, you are among the top candidates for a lynch and your defence is nonexistant. On August 09 2012 06:19 prplhz wrote: I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day). You are an easy target because you are scummy, and you haven´t tried to change anyones mind about you since returning, you´d rather throw some suspicion around and hope it blows over. I was ready to vote you earlier when you had posted twice in total, now you are back and I´m even more sure that you are scum.
##Vote prplhz
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On August 09 2012 08:19 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote: I thought leaving him to wonder what he had done wrong for a while was better, that might also give me a few more posts to build a case on, making it stronger once finally revealed. I didn´t see a need to reveal everything right away, so I didn´t.
For some reason, I find this quote extremely funny. Just thought I'd point it out. I'm really not impressed by Forumite's explanation, and as prplhz pointed out, the line about "just testing my scumsense" seems like another contradictory attempt at an explanation. Well, it wasn´t my best play. I´m not trying to polish it up afterwards, I played suboptimal and I´ve posted my reasons for why I did it. Of course you don´t like the reasons for my actions, neither do I, but I thought it was the right way to go at the time. In hindsight I should probably have made a note to include ShiaoPi's first post in any future cases on him and kept my suspicion a secret, at least until I had more evidence to build a case on.
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lol nice OMGUS Forumite. Yes, your D1 play was shit. You look scummy because of it. I want to see some real serious op kinda shit in the near future.
Still waiting on Mord's actual scumhunting. A FoS on shipoopi does not cut it. I want commitment. No more dodging, take a stance and stand by it. And idk if it's just me, but I still find it incredibly difficult to follow your logic in the couple posts you've made today.
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Sorry marv, I went out for the afternoon.
If deadline was coming up in 10 minutes and I had to vote *NOW*, I would probably vote prplhz. He just hasn't shown much interest in the game so far.
However, I'm a bit intrigued by Custos.
On August 09 2012 00:26 Custos Luna wrote: Also: Last night when I said ShiaoPi was triggering my scumdar, I meant Scib. Combination of tired brain + new names for me. This was just preliminary thinking before sleep. All opinions subject to change.
Since then, you haven't mentioned what actually triggered your scumdar on scib. In fact, you went on to quote a post where you agreed and added more information to his case DYH. Unless your opinion did, in fact, change without you mentioning it, then I don't see why you would go out of your way to reinforce the case of someone you think is scum.
also marv, I still don't understand your reasoning for forcing the discussion about Forumite when you think Custos is scum. You said you didn't need to perpetuate the case, but were you just planning to leave your vote on him and hope people hopped on at some point based on your meta case? It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
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On August 09 2012 08:28 marvellosity wrote: For when you return - please talk about Mordanis' case on shiaopi.
I'm not sure if you want to know how the case affects my opinion of Mordanis or how it affects my opinion of Shiaopi. Here are my opinions on the validity of each point in the case:
accusation that Shiaopi's first post is scummy+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 05:38 Mordanis wrote:He starts the game off with a really bad post. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
As the first post of any kind, you have to think about its purpose. Regardless of how a game progresses, it always starts with policy-talking. There is simply nothing to talk about before this. Really, what do people talk about at the beginning of a game if there is no policy talk? I see this as anti-discussion, which obviously helps scum. Furthermore, by posting zero content while coming out against policy, Shiao is trying to grab town cred. Trying to gain town's trust seems more scum motivated than town-motivated. Town wants scum found, doesn't really care if one VT dies in the process. The life of any scum is much more valued though, so survival is much more important. This makes town trust much more valuable to scum than to town. Overall, this is pretty suspicious. I think Mordanis makes a couple of valid points. I agree that Shiaopi's first post discouraged discussion. As I said before, Shiaopi's first post also seems uncharacteristically brazen for a relatively newbie player starting off a normal mini. I could see this as an attempt to 'grab town cred' although those aren't the words I would use. I do think Mordanis (intentionally or not) overplays the importance of these points. I wouldn't describe Shiaopi's first post as "pretty suspicious". Maybe a bit concerning, but that is all. The fluff about how it is important for scum to gain town's trust is just that -- fluff.
accusation that Shiaopi's scumhutning is scummy+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 05:38 Mordanis wrote: My problem with this is that he is not hunting for mistakes, not scum-slips or scum motivations. Everyone makes mistakes, so looking for mistakes seems like a really bad way to hunt for scum. Now in my previous games, I'd have dismissed this as an inexperienced townie who simply doesn't know how to hunt scum. Shiao does not fit this however. He has played several non-newbie games, which means that he has much more experience than I and Keir. Should he not then be capable of hunting scum via analysis, and not pushing for a lynch based on bad logic? Mordanis says that bad logic isn't necessarily scummy. This is a view he earlier shared when asking CL was equating my own "bad logic" with scumminess. I agree with Mordanis that bad logic is rarely a good scumtell. However, I really don't think Shiaopi's accusation on Mordanis is based on bad logic. Shiaopi's accusations on Mordanis are wishy/washiness, flip-flopping, and self-contradiction, which are all different from bad logic, and are often legitamate scumtells. So, I don't think Mordanis's argument here is very good.
Mordanis goes on to discuss some more fluff about trust.
The fact that Mordanis directly contradicted his earlier conjecture that Shiaopi's first post is not scummy is somewhat suspicious, but I like that he gave a reasonable explanation for the contradiction only like 10 minutes or so after being called out.
I really don't have any strong feelings about this case, what it says about Mordanis, or what it says about Shiaopi. You, marv, described this case as 'atrocious'. I agree that it is unconvincing, but I don't think Mordanis is a great scumhunter or anything (no offense to Mordanis) so I don't think that making unconvincing cases is a scumtell against Mordanis.
My overall thoughts on Mordanis+ Show Spoiler + I'm thinking town on Mordanis.
-- His stuff about "Don't tell the scum how to survive" is something he actually feels strong about. He has talked about it both in discussion about XIV and in-thread in another NMM where he was town -- He assumed a roleclaim from one of Keirathi's posts in another NMM that wasn't at all a roleclaim. Idk why he sees roleclaims everywhere he goes, but his thoughts about my first post seem sincere enough. -- His early question to CL gives me a townie feel. Questioning a smurfing vet so early in the game would be a bit gutsy as scum, and I think his question is valid.
My overall thoughts on Shiaopi+ Show Spoiler + I'm suspicious of Shiaopi. Not really because of anything that mordanis said in his case, though. I don't want to write a full case on Shiaopi right now because I have more important things to do (like figure out what to do about the Forumite and prplhz situations). Here are my reasons for suspicion in brief: -- first post a bit concerning -- I already said how I took issue with him objecting to a town plan by stating "suboptimal" scum counterstrats -- I think his case on Mordanis is quite a stretch -- some other stuff he says about Mordanis seems suspicious to me
Also, why is the thread so quiet right now? Where is everybody? It's 12 hours until lynch and most of us have to sleep through a good portion of that time.
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I find it very alarming that general consensus of town seems to be lynch prplhz, not because he looks particularly townish but because the same group of people have not even talked about scib's case against Forumite, nor are pushing an alternative such as Shiaopi or Mordanis in earnest.
In particular our votes are split pretty evenly which is worst case scenario. We should look at consolidation with what we have now - D1 lynch matters people. I'll be catching up on thread reviewing the other cases, but unless people are finding issue with the case on Forumite I urge you to consolidate.
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On August 09 2012 12:39 slOosh wrote: I find it very alarming that general consensus of town seems to be lynch prplhz, not because he looks particularly townish but because the same group of people have not even talked about scib's case against Forumite, nor are pushing an alternative such as Shiaopi or Mordanis in earnest.
Why are you so unwilling to name names and call out people?
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On August 09 2012 13:01 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 12:39 slOosh wrote: I find it very alarming that general consensus of town seems to be lynch prplhz, not because he looks particularly townish but because the same group of people have not even talked about scib's case against Forumite, nor are pushing an alternative such as Shiaopi or Mordanis in earnest.
Why are you so unwilling to name names and call out people? I have limited time and going through the thread to make a list isn't a productive use of my time. Why are you so intent on drawing discussion away from him again?
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On August 09 2012 10:28 Keirathi wrote:Sorry marv, I went out for the afternoon. If deadline was coming up in 10 minutes and I had to vote *NOW*, I would probably vote prplhz. He just hasn't shown much interest in the game so far. However, I'm a bit intrigued by Custos. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:26 Custos Luna wrote: Also: Last night when I said ShiaoPi was triggering my scumdar, I meant Scib. Combination of tired brain + new names for me. This was just preliminary thinking before sleep. All opinions subject to change.
Since then, you haven't mentioned what actually triggered your scumdar on scib. In fact, you went on to quote a post where you agreed and added more information to his case DYH. Unless your opinion did, in fact, change without you mentioning it, then I don't see why you would go out of your way to reinforce the case of someone you think is scum. also marv, I still don't understand your reasoning for forcing the discussion about Forumite when you think Custos is scum. You said you didn't need to perpetuate the case, but were you just planning to leave your vote on him and hope people hopped on at some point based on your meta case? It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Last night before I went to bed, I posted a couple of preliminary reads, but I accidentally wrote shipoopi instead of scib. I was just clarifying for my own sake. My opinions have not necessarily changed, but they have been put on the backburner for now.
Seeing as I have yet to see any significant scum hunting from Mord, my vote will stay on him.
The moon is calling me, I will see you guys when her journey til sunrise is complete.
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@CL Wait what? Will you be back by the deadline or not? If not, I ask that you consolidate onto Forumite, because you said he is scummy, and he stands a good chance of being lynched today, unlike Mordanis.
Also, how likely do you think prplhz is to be scum?
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on prplhz
suspicions against him+ Show Spoiler + me -- rather minor suspicion based on one post forumite -- orignally: prplhz is null. now: wants to lynch prplhz custos -- prplhz raised an eyebrow risk.nuke -- prplhz has done nothing marv -- votes him essentially for lurking DYH -- votes him essentially for lurking as far as I can tell HiroPro -- votes him for lurking (based on meta) keirathi -- for lurking
Lynching prplhz would be a lurker lynch. In general, I really dislike lurker lynches, because in my experience, lurkers are town just as often as anyone else. I'd rather lynch somebody I have an actual read on. Looking at prplhz's filter from this game, I see nothing that makes me think he is town, and only a bit of minorly suspicious stuff: unconstrutive posting, lurky. IMO, lurking in and of itself is only mildly suspicious. Just because someone is busy and/or disinterested doesn't mean that they are scum.
The only reason I am not strongly against a prplhz lynch is HiroPro's post about prplhz meta. As HiroPro says, prplhz does seem to show a lot more interest in games where he is town than in games where is scum. So, I agree that prplhz's behavior is suspicious. But, I still feel uneasy about lynching somebody off meta alone, and prplhz has pledged to contribute more in future. Isn't it possible that he was actually just quite busy?
In summary, I agree that prplhz is suspicious, but I don't think he's our best lynch. I still think Forumite is more likely to flip scum than not. I'll probably be making another post on him to try to convince you guys.
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Sort of caught up on the Mordanis thing.
I'm finding general inconsistency in his posting, almost like he is making stuff up as he goes along. Explanations seem more convoluted than the situation calls for.
Furthermore, he is also of the party that has not talked about the scib's case, and by his tone it seems he is null / town on Forumite, which would warrant defense of him yet he doesn't do that, i.e. doesn't care who gets lynched.
Only thing I'm iffy on is the of the case against him runs directly counter to the case on Forumite and people's general excuses and hesitation to speak on the matter. I feel much more comfortable with a Forumite lynch.
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Right I'm getting kicked out of the cafe (where I get my internets) so this will probably be last post of the night unless my new apartment internet finally starts working.
Everyone should say something about Forumite. Votes should accompany whatever stance you take. Additionally, votes should start consolidating.
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On August 09 2012 13:33 sciberbia wrote: @CL Wait what? Will you be back by the deadline or not? If not, I ask that you consolidate onto Forumite, because you said he is scummy, and he stands a good chance of being lynched today, unlike Mordanis.
Also, how likely do you think prplhz is to be scum?
I'll be back in the morning before deadline. I will reevaluate after I sleep.
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My opinions on the main lynch candidates:
-- Forumite -- I already said this, but his d1 play has been extraordinarily wishy-washy and boggling. I still can't believe that the general consensus is that him changing his mind solely because the "vets" pressured him wasn't particularly scummy. However, I've found that its much rarer that the scummiest day 1 candidate is actually scum. I would consolidate on to him in the morning if that's the consensus, but I think there's just as much chance of him being bad town as bad scum.
-- Mordanis -- His play fits the way he played as town in NMM XXII so far. However, his lack of scumhunting is kind of bothering me, because even despite the verbosity and the absurb "discussion" case to start the game, he still had a reasonable case (or two?) before day 1 deadline. He did end up having good reads in that game though, once you waded through all the verbosity, so hopefully he gets some cases out soon.
-- prplhz -- I really don't know what to think. He has lurked and hasn't contributed much at all. The 1 liners, and jumping on the most popular case once he did contribute doesn't help his standing in my eyes, and fits with his Normal Mini II scum play. For now, he gets my vote.
##vote prplhz
I'll be around for a couple of hours for discussion though.
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Why is everyone being so cautious? Especially you, Marv. You've played in or cohosted every game I've been in. You should be the expert on me whom everyone asks questions about my play, rather than deferring to other players. You've sent out tentative fingers of suspicion out to a few players, but you haven't really done anything to convince anyone of your read/reads. The only analysis you've given to support your vote is "well, X doesn't seem to care, might as well vote for him". I feel like the only people sticking their heads out to get things done are we "newbies" (I'm including the honorable participants of NMM 14 in this). I thought experienced players were fairly aggressive, but this has been by far the most passive game I've played in so far.
Anyways, my case on Shiao was kind of shitty (especially in the fact department. I'm actually really ashamed to have forgotten about the case on Forumite.), so I'll brb with new thoughts.
One final question: Sciberbia, are you basing your estimation of my scumhunting on NMM XIV? I really don't think its fair to label me as a mediocre or worse scumhunter based on a game where I was in fact on the mafia side.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Vote Count
prplhz (5): DoYouHas, Marvellosity, HiroPro, Forumite, Keirathi Forumite (3): Sciberbia, slOosh, prplhz Mordanis (2): ShiaoPi, Custos Luna
prplhz is currently set to be lynched.
The deadline is in ~9.75 hours at Thursday, Aug 09 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). The person with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
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@Mordanis From what I know about you, I just don't think you write the most convincing cases (as either town or scum). As to how good you are at actually identifying scum when you are town, I really have no idea.
-- I found your case on hegeo in XIV unconvincing -- Here are cases from NMM XXI that I found unconvincing + Show Spoiler +On July 27 2012 07:43 Mordanis wrote:Rather than sitting in a circle and deciding whom to lynch based on who sing "Kum ba yah, My Lord" the most off key (what kind of villainous scum would do such a thing?), I think its time to begin the scumhunt. Anyways, I apologize in advance if this seems somewhat rushed. I want to get the hunt going as early as possible, and I feel we've wasted the first hour and a half. So without further ado, here comes (hopefully) the first case of the game: Mordanis's's case on KeirathiK (for some reason your name is really hard for me to type) began this game by virtually claiming Town RB. + Show Spoiler +On July 27 2012 05:41 Keirathi wrote: First things first:
If we have a town roleblocker, I think its best not to use your role early. You generally have as much chance of hurting a teamate as you do a scum. I'm not saying to NEVER use it, but think carefully and only use it if you are reasonably sure that you are blocking a scum.
Some policy discussion:
Lynch All Liars - I'm of the opinion that there are very, very few cases where lying as a townie is beneficial to town. With that said, there ARE cases where it is a realistic option, so I think blanket policy lynching is a fairly bad thing. Case-by-case basis.
Lynch All Lurkers - As much as lurking hurts town, I feel like at least in newbie games, lurking is almost guaranteed. I encourage everyone to try as hard as they can to avoid lurking sot hat we won't have to discuss this later. Lurking as a townie hurts town. Please don't do it. Again, case-by-case basis.
Are all roleblocks notified, or only people with power roles? I've seen games where it works both ways, so best to clarify early.
. Now this may have been a case of extreme newbiness, which would be understandable, but Mr. K has played in at least 2 other games, so I believe he knew how this post would be interpreted. This brings up 3 possibilities: 1: Mr. K is VT, and he is trying to "take one for the team". He knows that the scum will see this post and read him blue, and he'll die tonight instead of a real blue. If this were to happen, he'd have helped town. If he gets lynched today, it'll be bad for town, but it will be deal-with-able. 2: Mr. K is actually townie RB. Perhaps he is trying to make his "claim" so obvious the scum will think option 1 is happening. Trying to hide out in the open. If he is killed during the night, we're in pretty bad shape. But if this option is the case and he's lynched today, we're in even worse shape, because he won't have used his power even once. That said, he implied that he wouldn't want to use it N1 anyway, so the options are virtually the same. 3: Mr. K is scum, and is trying to use this as means to get himself out of trouble. If he ever gets some heat brought to him, he just says "Dude, I basically claimed town RB, I don't think its a good idea to lynch me" The claim also puts pressure on any real blues to claim, and when everyone claims, a claim isn't worth anything. Basically, this post seems mildly non-protown, and it gives him a way to defend himself. Destabilizing town and giving yourself an extra cycle seems very scummy to me. If we lynch him today, we're off to a great start. And if this option is the case, scum aren't killing him tonight. Of these three, option 2 seems by far the least probable. So that being said, I think that right now Keirathi is the best candidate for lynching. Still, its pretty early so I don't think it would be wise in any way to commit right now. Last thing: I have to go to work now, and I'll be back in probably 5 hours (rakin in the cash makin pizza), just FYI. + Show Spoiler +On July 28 2012 06:36 Mordanis wrote:I'm starting to get a really bad feeling about Shady. Remember his post that said that no game in 20 lynched scum D1? + Show Spoiler +On July 27 2012 09:02 Shady Sands wrote: So pretty much, I looked through about 20 mafia games and found not a single night one lynch resulting in a red kill. This suggests one thing:
Day 1 scumhunting actually has a lower success rate than a random day 1 lynch. If the lynches had been truly random, then maybe 20-30% of the games should have had day 1 lynches turn up red, but none of them did. Here are the D1 lynches from several games: NMM XXI: blue NMM XX: red NMM XIX: blue NMM XVIII: green NMM XVII: red NMM XVI: blue (I couldn't find XV or XIV, so I chose to go to the SNMMs) SNMM XI: red SNMM X: green SNMM IX: green So we have 3 blues lynched, 3 VT lynched, and 3 scum lynched. So it would appear that in Newbie mini mafia games, there is about a 1/3 chance of lynching scum D1. With 3/13 chance a random lynch would hit scum (~24%), and historically a 1/3 chance of hitting scum through hunting, the choice is clear. This is for future reference really, as we're already hunting. But this brings up the fact that Shady almost certainly lied. Now there is sometimes a reason for a townie to lie. If it opens up an avenue for them to discover scum, or take one for the team, or accomplishes another goal it can be a boon to lie to the town. On the other hand, by suggesting that scum hunting D1 is useless, Shady is 1) discouraging discussion (why discuss when it only lowers the probability of hitting scum?), 2) stalling the game (mafia wants to stall as long as possible. they use their kp regardless of where our lynch ends up), and 3) trying to influence newbies' thinking (if analysis/scum hunt isn't the main priority, then mafia get off free for mistakes while being able to penalize some other player. This goes with stalling). In short, Shady lied in a pretty baldfaced manner, and the lie only serves the interest of mafia. Also, after reading through Obvious's filter last game, I saw that his behavior was almost identical to Golbat's. Golbat, you need to contribute, because if you don't, you're going to be looking even scummier. But I have seen almost identical play from a townie (Obvious was lynched D1 though), so for now I am going to switch my vote. ##Unvote ##Vote: Shady_Sands -- I was also unimpressed by your case on Shiaopi this game
So sorry if I've insulted you, but I've read through a few of your cases(as scum, town, and unknown alignment), and of the cases I've looked at, none look very convincing. Hence why I don't think you are scum just because of one questionable case on Shiaopi.
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EBWOP: To clarify, I didn't mean to say that you are a bad townie or that you make bad reads. I just don't expect to be wowed by your cases.
+ Show Spoiler +For what it's worth, I thought you played a fine scum game in NMM XIV and you had me fooled. Balancing out a criticism with a compliment here <3
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@scib: the "case" against me wasn't intended to be convincing, I think. Hence I brushed it off with a few words. His case against Shady did have merit, but only because if a misunderstanding that was cleared up later.
Without talking too much about a game that is still going, his post-day1 cases were pretty solid in general though, imo.
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@keir, mordanis whoops didn't realize it was still going.
Gah you're making me feel really bad lol. I think I came off as more harsh than I meant to. OK basically, I find a LOT of cases to be unconvincing, and Mordanis isn't a superstar vet, so one unconvincing case doesn't make me think he is scum, as marv was kinda suggesting it might.
If the same case was made by marv/gonzaw/HiroPro, I might see it as a cause for concern, but I don't expect the same cases from Mordanis as I do from those players.
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@scib: Ah, I get what you're saying. I just want to make sure you aren't discrediting his reads outright.
And marv's stances this game are really weird to me :o
Anyways, I think I'm going to head to bed so I can be up an hour or two before the deadline. G'nite.
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This is a bit of a throwback but it deserves answering.
On August 09 2012 05:23 sciberbia wrote: @DYH Please answer the following question for me: who do you think is more likely to be scum: Mordanis or prplhz? I'm not asking about who you have more reasons for voting for, or who you want to keep in the spotlight. If you had to bet your life savings right now on who is scum, who would you bet on? At the time of your asking my answer would definitely have been prplhz. After chewing over their more recent posts for a while I still would bet on prplhz over Mord.
There are a few things in the way Mord has been posting that makes me want to keep him around. They are shown well in his latest post. That is a willingness to be wrong/admit mistakes and a seemingly genuine frustration with the passivity of the thread.
prplhz on the other hand hasn't done much to dissuade me from my read on him. His posts since coming back are all focused on pushing Forumite. And while I will admit that the reason he gives for his vote isn't a bad one, the first thing I thought was "of course he went after Forumite, the easy target and the safe bandwagon". Which is kind of ironic to me because he sites himself as the victim of being an easy target in that very same post.
I am uncomfortable lynching Forumite, as I previously said, I just don't read mafia motivations behind his posts. I have found a few reasons to keep Mord around at least for today. I just don't have the same kind of hesitation in voting prplhz, so that is where my vote is staying unless something drastic changes.
@ scrib - What in Forumite's mistakes do you see as hiding mafia motivations?
- I am going to be around for the next ~30 minutes. I will also try to wake up and be around an hour before the deadline.
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Further suspicious behavior by Forumite
his willingness to throw suspicion around+ Show Spoiler +I find it suspicious when a player states suspicions of many other players, but either doesn't have townreads, or is unwilling to defend townreads. If Forumite is town, he should have some townreads that he is willing to defend. But, I feel like Forumite is supporting any lynch but his own in an effort to survive: -- mordanis: forumite agreed with shiaopi's case on him and expressed interest in lynching him -- shiaopi: forumite is currently null on shiaopi -- risk.nuke: forumite called out risk.nuke for lurking -- prplhz: forumite is supposedly confident that prplhz is scum I find Forumite's vote on prplhz especially suspicious. See these quotes: On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote: On prplhz Right now I´m in danger of falling into the OMGUS-trap, because the only thing I´ve gotten from him is the greeting and him calling me out. prplhz calling me out makes me think there´s something wrong with MY play, which makes prplhz a nulltell. On August 09 2012 03:57 Forumite wrote: With how the game looks right now, I want to lynch prplhz or mord. Prplhz doesn't play anything like I'm used to seing him play (as town), and mord is lurking too much for his few big but empty posts.
On August 09 2012 08:53 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:53 prplhz wrote:On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote:[...] On August 09 2012 06:46 prplhz wrote: Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia). I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post. Your excuse is a lie, you were not testing out your reads. You are now trying to take credit for something which you inadvertently caused which makes no sense at all. You appear to be overly worried about what people think about you and your explanations don't make sense. This is why you are the scummiest in the thread. Yeah, this isn´t the prplhz I´m used to. I can take the fact that you think I´m scum, but I can´t understant why you are not reading what I write and are deliberately misunderstand things. Do you really think I´m trying to take town-credit for being the cause of a discussion about wether or not I´m scum? I don´t think you have any interest in this game at all, you are among the top candidates for a lynch and your defence is nonexistant. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:19 prplhz wrote: I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day). You are an easy target because you are scummy, and you haven´t tried to change anyones mind about you since returning, you´d rather throw some suspicion around and hope it blows over. I was ready to vote you earlier when you had posted twice in total, now you are back and I´m even more sure that you are scum. ##Vote prplhz 1) I grow weary of pointing out Forumite's blatant self-contradictions, but originally, after prplhz's first two posts, Forumite lists prplhz as a nulltell. Then suddenly, without any new posts from prplhz, Forumite wants to lynch prplhz or mord. And later, Forumite clarifies that prplhz actually did seem scummy from the first two posts alone. Blatant contradiction. 2) I think his vote on prplhz is way too confident. I don't see anything in prplhz's behavior that justifies such confidence that prplhz is scum. This is slightly scummy on its own, and moreso after considering Forumite's meta, which I will address shortly.
suspicion on meta+ Show Spoiler +Here are some personal notes I made myself on Forumite's meta: + Show Spoiler + SCUM FORTUMITE (source: wheel of fortune) nitpicks some dumb policy stuff tunnels an easy target hard likes to point out bad town play gives some helpful blue advice "who is scum and where are the lurkers?" acts very sure about his easy case casts a rather small net.
TOWN FORTUMITE(source: arkham city (vig)) casts wider net willing to change opinions less sure about everything hepful policy talk
I just compared his filter this game to my notes, and I definitely see more similarity to his scum meta than his townie meta. Disagreeing with other people's policy ideas in WoF: + Show Spoiler +On April 22 2012 07:15 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 07:08 prplhz wrote: SamuelLJackson needs to sign their posts and you need to show that you're actually two people playing for town. You're likely going to be the strongest town player and I expect that to show in your play and I'm gonna complain about any weird stuff from you because, no. Not following, why do they need to sign their posts? Doesn´t that defeat the point of having a hydra-account? On April 22 2012 07:27 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 07:17 prplhz wrote: Uh, because then we know who said what, duh. Do you have a problem with them signing their posts?
When I say "need" I don't mean that it's a game rule or anything, it's just something I want them to do to show transparency. Otherwise there can be big discussion about "Oh, not that wasn't be that was him who said that I don't know what it's about". Signing posts is never going to hurt anyone and it might prevent a great deal of confusion so they're going to sign their posts.
Agree? Partly agree. It´s good in most situations to know who said what, because otherwise it´s impossible to read their play due to old games. On the other hand, just like in Couples Therapy Mafia, they are both responsible for what the other one do. They can´t blame the other player, so most of the time I´ll ignore who said what. On April 22 2012 07:49 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 07:27 prplhz wrote:Oh you mean like "they're going to talk to each other and agree on some opinion and then they're going to post it"? I doubt that's a realistic scenario, they're both going to have opinions and they're not necessarily going to be the same. And even though sandroba can be really persuasive, Toadesstern knows that this game essentially revolves around him. They're both going to have opinions. We hydra'd that time in that Palmar game and I don't believe we agreed on a single thing? No matter what, there's no harm in them signing their posts, if they both have the same opinion then they can just sign with both their names or whatever. How do you feel about random lynching day1 based on sports results? I know, they will probably not agree on everything, I don´t expect them to, but if one of them makes a mistake then the other one is probably just playing better. I agree that they might as well sign their posts, I just disagree with how we use that information. On April 23 2012 05:59 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:33 Ace wrote: Well I didn't read wbg's last game, but s&b has a point Forumite. I've said it many times in the past that a pair of Masons are the most dangerous roles that a Scum team has to deal with in most games. He also alluded to Masons fast claiming Day 1 in the last game and wrecking shit. I'd be suspicious of any player that doesn't even want to talk about going this route also.
As for your encryption plan that makes sense S&B but Samuel brings up a good point: They aren't guaranteed to be in the game. Let's not make ourselves do extra work that probably won't pay off. For now the fact that anyone even lazily reading the thread knows that a Mason claim is very likely by Day 2 is good enough. I don´t have the same experience with masons as you. In the games I´ve played, confirmed townies die soon after getting confirmed. In that light, it might be better to wait until day 3 to claim, and breadcrumb in a foolproof way so that if one mason die before the claim, the other one can confirm himself. During D3, when there are fewer people alive, one confirmed makes a much bigger difference. On April 23 2012 06:51 Forumite wrote: I think I see what you mean, giving scum 2 more targets will give them way too many to shoot down with all the veterans here, especially if one or two in the mason pair are newbies who would never normally attract bullets. In that case, why wait until tomorrow? Why not claim now in that case? Why tomorrow? We are most likely one less player tomorrow, maybe 2. 2 confirmed among 12 is not far from 2 confirmed among 14, it´s not enough to single out scum.
The way I see it, either we give scum more targets, or we make sure to get as many confirmed town as possible. If the first, then the masons should claim now, if the second, then we wait until day 3 and have the masons and DTs claim all at once. Disagreeing with other people's policy ideas in DF: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 ShiaoPi wrote: Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. On Double-lynching: I´m opposed to double-lynching because of the danger of gobbos manipulating the vote, either to save their buddy or to kill two town at once. I´m also opposed to it because of the ease of blending in when the discussion is about a package of 2 people dying, when there are two candidates players can just say "Meh, I don´t really want to lynch B but since it´s the only way to get you all to agree on lynching A, I guess we´ll lynch both together". I will not agree to double-lynching unless there´s a VERY good reason to double-lynch. I will vote to hammer anyone who creates a double-lynch without the second candidate flipping gobbo. On August 08 2012 06:03 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. You mean claim, and if counterclaimed (by scum or the real tracker) we kill them both? I don´t think it´s a good plan. A Tracker is not as good as a DT, but he´s not useless. An innocent child will just get killed if he claims D1. The Tracker can track the one doing the nightkill and the roleblocker, and know if his target is a Doc (no roleblock claim and survives), so basically a DT that misses the one scum that does nothing. Can scum send the roleblocker to perform the nightkill AND roleblock even when there are other goblins alive, thereby reducing the number of people at risk of being Tracked? (Only usefull in a Tracker+Doc setup, but still) Acting very sure about easy targets in WoF: + Show Spoiler +He basically just tunnels MrZentor for 2 days. Here are a few examples of his confidence in the read: On April 22 2012 11:08 Forumite wrote: You on the other hand are grasping at straws, you make a weak case on prplhz to divert attention from yourself, and you are generally not acting town (why DID you vote yourself?). It´s very, very early in the game, and only about a third of the players have shown themselves so far, but your play so far scream scum.
##Vote MrZentor On April 22 2012 20:22 Forumite wrote: I know most scum wouldn´t start the game like he does, because it´s too obvious, but that can´t be a defence of those who actually do. On April 27 2012 03:21 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 01:30 MrZentor wrote:Don't worry; I won't change my vote. If you want a mislynch, you're going to get one. I just hope town can make a comeback after my death. + Show Spoiler +Considering town has prphlz and forumite, I doubt that that's going to happen. If I had any doubts about you, you silenced them with that post. There is no way you can be Town, not after the way you´ve been playing. Acting very sure about easy targets in DF: + Show Spoiler +Shiaopi is maybe not an easy target, but certainly not a hard one. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. And also with prplhz: On August 09 2012 08:53 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:53 prplhz wrote:On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote:[...] On August 09 2012 06:46 prplhz wrote: Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia). I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post. Your excuse is a lie, you were not testing out your reads. You are now trying to take credit for something which you inadvertently caused which makes no sense at all. You appear to be overly worried about what people think about you and your explanations don't make sense. This is why you are the scummiest in the thread. Yeah, this isn´t the prplhz I´m used to. I can take the fact that you think I´m scum, but I can´t understant why you are not reading what I write and are deliberately misunderstand things. Do you really think I´m trying to take town-credit for being the cause of a discussion about wether or not I´m scum? I don´t think you have any interest in this game at all, you are among the top candidates for a lynch and your defence is nonexistant. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:19 prplhz wrote: I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day). You are an easy target because you are scummy, and you haven´t tried to change anyones mind about you since returning, you´d rather throw some suspicion around and hope it blows over. I was ready to vote you earlier when you had posted twice in total, now you are back and I´m even more sure that you are scum. ##Vote prplhz His 'confidence' that prplhz is scum in particular is what I find really suspicious. It looks a lot like his 'confidence' that MrZentor was scum from WoF. I was expecting to find more similarities, but I guess that's it on meta. Anyway, the best example of a town game I could find of him (Arkham city) looks significantly different.
To summarize, here is everything I find suspicious about Forumite: -- his contradictory logic about not explaining his read on shiaopi due to wanting shiaopi to scumslip -- forumite kept talking about his scum read on shiaopi even after he supposedly realized that his case wasn't good -- his reaction to prplhz calling him scummy was to assume that prplhz must be right and his case on shiaopi must be bad -- the post to me in which he calls his own case bad and casts doubt on his own scumhunting ability -- overall tone toward vets and active players is a bit too passive/friendly IMO -- contradicts himself about his initial views on prplhz -- doesn't have any townread that he is willing to defend from lynching. I don't think he has explicitly disagreed with any scumread or case presented thus far -- acts very sure that prplhz is scum. Unjustifiably so, IMO -- fits his scum meta better than his townie meta IMO
@DYH I don't really see Forumite as trying to push a scum agenda. I just see him trying to fake being a townie (aka survive), but not doing a good enough of a job. His contradictions make me think he has been lying about reads, reasons for reads, and reasons for changing reads. Scum don't have reads, so they need to lie about that kind of stuff. Not defending other people is a scum trait: he doesn't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't him. Being friendly toward vets and casting doubt on his own scumhunting are both ways to try to gain friends, but don't have good townie motivations.
I still think Forumite has a pretty good chance of being scum. It's possible I'm wrong about him, but I don't think I am.
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I'm going to bed. I'll be up very shortly before the deadline.
My views on anyone that might be in contention for lynching: very suspicious: Forumite suspicious: prplhz, shiaopi not suspicious: Mordanis
I agree with Mordanis that this D1 has been a bit frustrating. It's actually remarkable how little our 'vets' have done today now that I think about it. prplhz, risk.nuke, CL, HiroPro, and marv to an extent.
On the upside, I think we have a pretty good shot at lynching scum tomorrow, especially if we lynch forumite, but I could also see us hitting scum with prplhz.
Good night.
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Alright, hopefully I can organize myself a little bit better than before.
Marv:
Anyways, I don't really trust Marv's motives so far. His reason for voting for CL: + Show Spoiler [Reasoning] +On August 09 2012 00:31 marvellosity wrote:Final post for now. People who don't care about town: prplhz. For your convenience, his posts so far: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote: Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote: Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? Posting to say he isn't reading, and casting doubt with seemingly no purpose. This is seriously pants. I'd be happier to vote for him if I hadn't seen him do similar as town before. Custos MoonyThis dude is worse. DoYouHas talked about him a little yesterday, and I agree with what he said. To expand: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:40 Custos Luna wrote:On August 08 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote: Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf,
...
Thoughts on roleclaims: Vanilla Townies Please do not roleclaim without a very good reason.
This goes back to part of Shiao's case on Mordanis, where Mordanis tied himself up in knots a bit about it. However, I see the root cause of that particular problem as Luna's post here (of course sciberbia was the originator, but Luna is the one to highlight it). The problem I have with this post is that it's highlighting something without providing your own commentary on it. As DYH said, it's highlighting a contradiction that wasn't even really a contradiction. What it *is* doing is planting an idea into town, an idea that can't be fruitful, and then letting town shit itself up with it. I see strong scum motive in this. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:31 Custos Luna wrote:On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:CVSTO LVNA PRO SVVS ABVTOR GENITIVI PROVOCO ET AVT NOMEN SVVS MVTAVERIT AVT DABO SENSVS MEVS EI + Show Spoiler [Translation] +For his abuse of the genitive I am calling out Custo Luna, and he must either change his name or I will vote for him. + Show Spoiler +Not really, this was just a fun may to make my 4 years of latin worthwhile, and for anyone who's taken latin: Come on, Luna is a first declension noun. Easiest one to learn, and CL has it wrong in his name (Unless his name is just supposed to be two unrelated nouns, like JingleHell, VisceraEyes, and if you allow one word to be an adjective, BlazingHand, BloodyCobbler, etc, etc, etc.). This is therefore a joke. Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? I took 6 years of Latin, but it's been 5 years since I took my last class D= you should petition the mods to change it for me Mostly just poking for now, I'm at work and reading when I can, so I'm making note of things I see. To everyone: stop discussing the possibilities of a D1 double lynch when you have 0 candidates. There is no point to posit the idea of killing 2 when there isn't even 1 on the table. Again as DYH points out, everyone wasn't talking about a D1 double lynch at all. It was mentioned offhandedly as a bad idea a couple of times, but never seriously proposed in any way. In an empty filter, it's empty filler devoid of content for the sake of saying something. Further to note - he's at work and reading where he can, and just "poking". Excuse for not being substantial. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 08:30 Custos Luna wrote: Watcher tracks and Tracker watches. got it Just pointless. If it was sandwiched between content, fine, but it isn't. The fact of the matter is that Custos was around the thread at at least three points yesterday (just check the timestamps of what I quoted) but when he's around he contributes nothing or even causes thread disruption. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 13:18 Custos Luna wrote: hmm, had less time than i anticipated tonight, can't do much heavy analysis.
shiaopi triggers my scumdar. prplhz raised an eyebrow, but i keep looking
night - gotta go protect the moon Second excuse for doing nothing. In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target. ##Vote: Custos Luna Long story short, its either the worst "scum-tell" in history or a pressure vote. First off, lurking/inactivity is a really bad scum-tell. One prominent example comes to mind+ Show Spoiler + Mufaa/Skware in NMM 14, where one player was replaced because he didn't post at all in a cycle or two, and his replacement posted a total of like 4 times in 4 cycles, and 3 of them were in the first cycle he replaced into. He literally didn't post for at least 2 cycles and missed at least 2 votes, and he was town. Even if this isn't meant as anti-lurker, looking for players who "don't care about town" doesn't make any sense at all. It's saying that he wants to lynch people for low town standing. I really don't think marv thought that CL was scum because he didn't have 3 pages in his filter yet, so it makes a lot more sense to me to assume that marv's vote was for pressure. In that perspective, it worked, as CL posted a fair amount of analyzable content afterwards. The vote doesn't quite make sense as a pressure vote though either. (explanation for previous statement in next paragraph)
Marv later posts + Show Spoiler [Similar Reasoning] +On August 09 2012 05:24 marvellosity wrote: ##Unvote
Custos is actually getting involved in town affairs
##Vote: prplhz
prplhz very much is not.
I'm going to look more into the Forumite situation. Need to mull over what slOosh said to me and also see if I can make anything out of what seems to be a lot of 'meh' from people about it. On one hand, it could simply be more pressure. The problem is that if you remove these two votes and their reasoning, Marv has posted basically only questions, answers, and requests. So if these two posts are purely for pressure and Marv is not convinced that inactivity is scummy, then Marv hasn't really posted any content. And if the votes were legitimate (not for pressure), then Marv is using a heuristic to find scum that I think is just dumb. Simply put, his play doesn't line up.
Before I begin my next point, I want to point out again that Marv has either played in or cohosted every game I've played. Assumably this means that he has read every post of mine, and known my alignment for most of them the entire time. Marv must know my habits, foibles, tells, and what to do to get me lynched at this point. This is rather important. Here I'd like to point out these posts + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 08:28 marvellosity wrote: scib, I meant all the questions/explanations/possible contradictions in the explanations for Forumite's play.
Most likely to be scum? ick. to be continued.
For when you return - please talk about Mordanis' case on shiaopi. On August 09 2012 08:02 marvellosity wrote: ugh this Forumite stuff is soooo dense.
can't tell if mordanis is scum or just made a really atrocious case. as you're here, what did you make of mordanis' case on ShiaoPi, prplhz? Marv has the sickest meta-read opportunity in history right now, but instead of using his experience of 100% of my play, he defers to others. To someone whom he ostensibly believes is scum. It seems like he's scared to come out and say that he thinks I'm scummy. Or townie. Hell, his "pressure votes" read the same way to me, like he's afraid of offering his reads, and so instead he'll do the townie thing and discourage lurking by pressuring lurkers. Even his multitudinous requests, questions, and instructions read the same way, as if he wants someone else to do the work for him. Either he is truly being lazy, or he is trying to hide behind others. Why he would try to hide behind others as town is beyond me. As town your goal is to spread information that leads to lynching scum. As scum you want to delay scum lynches while using your kp at night. Making other people do work without doing any of your own fits only the goal of scum.
In short, marv is either extremely light on sharing his opinions, or is trying to find scum in a really bad way. Also, he seems to be afraid to take responsibility, which seems very scummy.
##Vote marvellosity
Also, I'm going to be up for like 15 minutes, and then I'll sleep for like 4 hours, be awake for the deadline, and then probably crash 5 minutes later.
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Prplhz as people have already pointed out don't play like this as town and I prefer to hang him rather then Forumite. ##Vote: prplhz
Worth to note - Mordanis votes for a a new lynch candidate a couple of hours before the deadline and then says he will go to bed. If he honestly thinks he can get someone lynched on that short notice without staying in the thread absolutely screaming and arguing then I'm a horse. So what I can make of that is Mordanis pretty much doesn't care who dies.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:59 Mordanis wrote: ##Vote: Custos Luna [/spoiler] Long story short, its either the worst "scum-tell" in history or a pressure vote. First off, lurking/inactivity is a really bad scum-tell. One prominent example comes to mind+ Show Spoiler + Mufaa/Skware in NMM 14, where one player was replaced because he didn't post at all in a cycle or two, and his replacement posted a total of like 4 times in 4 cycles, and 3 of them were in the first cycle he replaced into. He literally didn't post for at least 2 cycles and missed at least 2 votes, and he was town. Even if this isn't meant as anti-lurker, looking for players who "don't care about town" doesn't make any sense at all. It's saying that he wants to lynch people for low town standing.[/QUOTE]
this is so frighteningly bad I can't believe it.
carry on mordanis.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
ugh, fuck formatting. just calling mordanis bad.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:47 sciberbia wrote: @DYH I don't really see Forumite as trying to push a scum agenda. I just see him trying to fake being a townie (aka survive), but not doing a good enough of a job.
That's the problem, I don't see why if he was trying to fake a townie he'd have thrown out that pointless read so early. It doesn't add up.
I'm happy with my vote on prplhz.
I'm perplexed by Mordanis's cases so far (on me or otherwise), and sorry bro, I don't know your posting well enough to understand if it's scum motivation or if they're just awful and full of contradictions.
Kinda a bit suspicious of HiroPro at the moment for content and very suspicious of Keirathi. He's made one post with his opinions on lynch candidates, and apart from that his entire filter is jabs, picking, poking, criticising.
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1) I grow weary of pointing out Forumite's blatant self-contradictions, but originally, after prplhz's first two posts, Forumite lists prplhz as a nulltell. Then suddenly, without any new posts from prplhz, Forumite wants to lynch prplhz or mord. And later, Forumite clarifies that prplhz actually did seem scummy from the first two posts alone. Blatant contradiction.
Hm this is a good point.
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Alright, I'll vote for Forumite. I suppose prplhz could just be genuinely busy.
##Unvote ##Vote Forumite
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Reasons people are voting me:
On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote: [...] prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
Voting for me because I am lurkish. It's a little wobbly between scum and pressure vote but
On August 09 2012 05:24 marvellosity wrote: ##Unvote
Custos is actually getting involved in town affairs
##Vote: prplhz
prplhz very much is not.
I'm going to look more into the Forumite situation. Need to mull over what slOosh said to me and also see if I can make anything out of what seems to be a lot of 'meh' from people about it.
Voting for me because I am lurkish.
On August 09 2012 05:32 HiroPro wrote:Let's kill prplhz. As town he may act overwhelmed at times but he certainly doesn't display the attitude or lack of interest that he does here. This is much more like his scum games ( Normal Mini II and Movie Star) where he acts annoyed and angry for no reason and does nothing. As for Forumite, I'll wait and see. The contradiction that sciberbia and slOosh talk about (wanting to pressure Shiao but at the same time withholding reasoning because ) is certainly present but he's brought a lot more attention onto himself actively than I would expect from a scum player and definitely looks interested in town affairs. We shouldn't lynch him today. ##Vote prplhz I don't know what to think of this, when I am busy I play like I am playing right now. I appreciate the effort but if you look at Mad Men Mafia you'll see me play lurkish too (and get lynched on day1) and I was town that game. HiroPro, why are you ignoring Mad Men Mafia? Also, how exactly do you feel that my play looks like Normal Mini Mafia II and Movie Star Mafia but not like Mad Men Mafia?
On August 09 2012 08:53 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:53 prplhz wrote:On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote:[...] On August 09 2012 06:46 prplhz wrote: Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia). I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post. Your excuse is a lie, you were not testing out your reads. You are now trying to take credit for something which you inadvertently caused which makes no sense at all. You appear to be overly worried about what people think about you and your explanations don't make sense. This is why you are the scummiest in the thread. Yeah, this isn´t the prplhz I´m used to. I can take the fact that you think I´m scum, but I can´t understant why you are not reading what I write and are deliberately misunderstand things. Do you really think I´m trying to take town-credit for being the cause of a discussion about wether or not I´m scum? I don´t think you have any interest in this game at all, you are among the top candidates for a lynch and your defence is nonexistant. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:19 prplhz wrote: I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day). You are an easy target because you are scummy, and you haven´t tried to change anyones mind about you since returning, you´d rather throw some suspicion around and hope it blows over. I was ready to vote you earlier when you had posted twice in total, now you are back and I´m even more sure that you are scum. ##Vote prplhz Why are you as town saying something that you don't mean? I read the thread and then I react to that, you shouldn't say stuff you don't mean if you are town because the best you can achieve is that some guy will misunderstand you. Like it's already been pointed out this looks very OMGUS and you were just waiting for me to post so that you could put your vote on me (you'd already expressed the desire to do this but also some scummy reluctance to do it).
On August 09 2012 13:51 Keirathi wrote: [...] -- prplhz -- I really don't know what to think. He has lurked and hasn't contributed much at all. The 1 liners, and jumping on the most popular case once he did contribute doesn't help his standing in my eyes, and fits with his Normal Mini II scum play. For now, he gets my vote.
##vote prplhz
I'll be around for a couple of hours for discussion though. You don't know what to think so you'll just lynch me? Since when are 1 liners something that scum primarily do and how did I just jump on Forumite? I wrote what I liked about the sciberbia case, the point about his weird explanation of his ShiaoPi vote was really good. Forumite is writing something that very literally makes no sense just because he is under light pressure, this is really scummy. You are voting me for being lurkish and for voting someone else for a legit reason.
On August 09 2012 18:52 risk.nuke wrote: Prplhz as people have already pointed out don't play like this as town and I prefer to hang him rather then Forumite. ##Vote: prplhz [...]
Is this legit? Seriously, you are all voting for an easy target, not because I am scummy but because I lurked a bit. Then you are vaguely referring to the only actual case against me (HiroPro's) which is in itself really vague and also has a big flaw in it (in that he ignores my most recent game where this exact same thing happened as town). People should just notice this if I get lynched, HiroPro is the only one who actually ever brought out any arguments against me, the rest were a pressure vote and a bunch of vague references to that case, and I think it looks like HiroPro is being set up.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
First off regarding Mord: While I can agree on your point that marv seems overly cautious I cannot agree with your points about his vote. What he does by pressure voting first custos then prphlz is to discourage inactivity and not getting involved with the discussion. How can you say that this is not playing with townmotivation in mind if it helps combat anti-town play?
But nevertheless, this seems to me at least an improvement from your case on me. It is correct to be wary of marv.
At the moment I really do not know if it is that good to lynch prphlz...It is a lurker lynch bascially, flipping a coin on the chance that it really is different from his meta because he is scum or that he simply lacked time.
Reading through the latest points of scib got me convinced that Forumite might actually be scum. Coupled with Mord actually starting to make sense, when I look at it from his point of view (no offense ) and my discomfort with a prphlz lynch I expressed above, I will change my vote to Forumite. Since my vote on Mord achieved some success in getting him to post more sensible and it probably won't get any traction looking at it in 3 hours to deadline.
##unvote ##Vote: Forumite
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
oh wow, got double ninja'ed, reading
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I'm literally going out the door the Olympics (woo!)
could someone rustle up a votecount? gonna check in on phone en route
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
I like prhplz response to the votes, adds up onto my thoughts that he is just busy. @Marv: I think currently Forumite is set to be lynched
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Other stuff I noticed about Forumite
On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 10:43 sciberbia wrote: @forumite Can you more fully explain your initial read on shiaopi, your current read on shiaopi, and why your read has changed? That last post makes it look like you have completely thrown out your initial suspicions on shiaopi. Is this solely because people such as prplhz have disagreed with you? Initial read: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. Basically I thought I saw some kind of anti-town motivation here. I´ve gotten good reads from initial posts in other games, so I thought I had found something here. Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as ShiaoPi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done. That´s about it, I´m back to square one on ShiaoPi. [/b][/b] It's okay that you read what other people say but listening to them because of how many games they've played makes no sense. Townies are ever paranoid and Forumite wants to hear the opinions of three people so that he can adjust his reads according to them. I think that townies mostly just stick with what they think (and if they're new at the game and someone disagrees with them then they'll call those disagreeing people scum). Forumite put his read out there so that he could adjust his behavior according to what three people thought without ever clarifying why he is assuming that they're town (he's even very suspicious of me at this point).
His filter has a decent size (considering that it's day1) but there's nothing in there that I would think is townie. He is poking a little at people "Where is Custos Luna" and "risk.nuke is lurking" but he is not following up on it. Other than that, it's primarily defending himself and then trying to get his vote down. His posting has a really constructed look over it like he thinks too much about not making any missteps.
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+ Show Spoiler [Fixed formatting on the post above it] +Other stuff I noticed about Forumite On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 10:43 sciberbia wrote: @forumite Can you more fully explain your initial read on shiaopi, your current read on shiaopi, and why your read has changed? That last post makes it look like you have completely thrown out your initial suspicions on shiaopi. Is this solely because people such as prplhz have disagreed with you? Initial read: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote: Well well, let's get started! Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. Basically I thought I saw some kind of anti-town motivation here. I´ve gotten good reads from initial posts in other games, so I thought I had found something here. Current read: Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as ShiaoPi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done. That´s about it, I´m back to square one on ShiaoPi. It's okay that you read what other people say but listening to them because of how many games they've played makes no sense. Townies are ever paranoid and Forumite wants to hear the opinions of three people so that he can adjust his reads according to them. I think that townies mostly just stick with what they think (and if they're new at the game and someone disagrees with them then they'll call those disagreeing people scum). Forumite put his read out there so that he could adjust his behavior according to what three people thought without ever clarifying why he is assuming that they're town (he's even very suspicious of me at this point). His filter has a decent size (considering that it's day1) but there's nothing in there that I would think is townie. He is poking a little at people "Where is Custos Luna" and "risk.nuke is lurking" but he is not following up on it. Other than that, it's primarily defending himself and then trying to get his vote down. His posting has a really constructed look over it like he thinks too much about not making any missteps.
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@scrib -I've allready answered why I kept saying I thought ShaioPi was scum even when I got unsure. -I got suspicious of prplhz earlier, but didn't trust my read at first, because I thought it might have been anger at him voting for me. Then he came back and didn't change my opinion after three posts, so I went with my earlier read, that he's scum.
About mord I don't think he's scum. I don't like his long posts, but he's actually my strongest townread right now.
I'm not sure if I'll be around anymore before the deadline.
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On August 09 2012 21:06 prplhz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Reasons people are voting me: On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote: [...] prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz Voting for me because I am lurkish. It's a little wobbly between scum and pressure vote but On August 09 2012 05:24 marvellosity wrote: ##Unvote
Custos is actually getting involved in town affairs
##Vote: prplhz
prplhz very much is not.
I'm going to look more into the Forumite situation. Need to mull over what slOosh said to me and also see if I can make anything out of what seems to be a lot of 'meh' from people about it. Voting for me because I am lurkish. On August 09 2012 05:32 HiroPro wrote:Let's kill prplhz. As town he may act overwhelmed at times but he certainly doesn't display the attitude or lack of interest that he does here. This is much more like his scum games ( Normal Mini II and Movie Star) where he acts annoyed and angry for no reason and does nothing. As for Forumite, I'll wait and see. The contradiction that sciberbia and slOosh talk about (wanting to pressure Shiao but at the same time withholding reasoning because ) is certainly present but he's brought a lot more attention onto himself actively than I would expect from a scum player and definitely looks interested in town affairs. We shouldn't lynch him today. ##Vote prplhz I don't know what to think of this, when I am busy I play like I am playing right now. I appreciate the effort but if you look at Mad Men Mafia you'll see me play lurkish too (and get lynched on day1) and I was town that game. HiroPro, why are you ignoring Mad Men Mafia? Also, how exactly do you feel that my play looks like Normal Mini Mafia II and Movie Star Mafia but not like Mad Men Mafia? On August 09 2012 08:53 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:53 prplhz wrote:On August 09 2012 07:34 Forumite wrote:[...] On August 09 2012 06:46 prplhz wrote: Yes I will contribute more, no I will not give you any reason other than the very generic "I'm busy" (because I don't think that it's fair when people bring things into mafia that don't belong in mafia). I´m still waiting for your contribution, and your answer to my latest post. Your excuse is a lie, you were not testing out your reads. You are now trying to take credit for something which you inadvertently caused which makes no sense at all. You appear to be overly worried about what people think about you and your explanations don't make sense. This is why you are the scummiest in the thread. Yeah, this isn´t the prplhz I´m used to. I can take the fact that you think I´m scum, but I can´t understant why you are not reading what I write and are deliberately misunderstand things. Do you really think I´m trying to take town-credit for being the cause of a discussion about wether or not I´m scum? I don´t think you have any interest in this game at all, you are among the top candidates for a lynch and your defence is nonexistant. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 06:19 prplhz wrote: I don't like most of the votes on me, it seems like they're just picking an easy target in a lurkish person which is silly (at least so early on in the day). You are an easy target because you are scummy, and you haven´t tried to change anyones mind about you since returning, you´d rather throw some suspicion around and hope it blows over. I was ready to vote you earlier when you had posted twice in total, now you are back and I´m even more sure that you are scum. ##Vote prplhz Why are you as town saying something that you don't mean? I read the thread and then I react to that, you shouldn't say stuff you don't mean if you are town because the best you can achieve is that some guy will misunderstand you. Like it's already been pointed out this looks very OMGUS and you were just waiting for me to post so that you could put your vote on me (you'd already expressed the desire to do this but also some scummy reluctance to do it). On August 09 2012 13:51 Keirathi wrote: [...] -- prplhz -- I really don't know what to think. He has lurked and hasn't contributed much at all. The 1 liners, and jumping on the most popular case once he did contribute doesn't help his standing in my eyes, and fits with his Normal Mini II scum play. For now, he gets my vote.
##vote prplhz
I'll be around for a couple of hours for discussion though. You don't know what to think so you'll just lynch me? Since when are 1 liners something that scum primarily do and how did I just jump on Forumite? I wrote what I liked about the sciberbia case, the point about his weird explanation of his ShiaoPi vote was really good. Forumite is writing something that very literally makes no sense just because he is under light pressure, this is really scummy. You are voting me for being lurkish and for voting someone else for a legit reason. On August 09 2012 18:52 risk.nuke wrote: Prplhz as people have already pointed out don't play like this as town and I prefer to hang him rather then Forumite. ##Vote: prplhz [...]
Is this legit? Seriously, you are all voting for an easy target, not because I am scummy but because I lurked a bit. Then you are vaguely referring to the only actual case against me (HiroPro's) which is in itself really vague and also has a big flaw in it (in that he ignores my most recent game where this exact same thing happened as town). People should just notice this if I get lynched, HiroPro is the only one who actually ever brought out any arguments against me, the rest were a pressure vote and a bunch of vague references to that case, and I think it looks like HiroPro is being set up.
I didnt know you were in Mad Men. I looked at the games that I had played/observed with you in them (Poison, Liar, Movie, NMM II).
The similarity was in your attitude. In NMM II you screamed for the first half of the day that marv was scum but didnt say anything beyond that. In Movie you pretended to get angry about Zentor being in the game and proceeded to tunnel. This game was similar in that you came in not caring about what was going on, acted annoyed by Forumite, and then didnt do anything else.
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Ok, my morning evaluation:
prplhz: I do not feel that the prplhz wagon has that much merit. He had a few poor posts early, but in the whole, he has responded fairly well to the case against him. He has defended himself logically and presented a counter argument against Forumite.
In my experience, the D1 lurker lynch is almost always inaccurate. The prplhz wagon started because it was easy. The easy way isn't always the right way. I'm glad people are starting to reconsider the vote on prpl for this reason. That's not to say I think he's town, I just think he is less likely to be scum than others at this point.
Forumite: I can see a scenario with Forumite flipping scum. He has been flip floppy all game, and people have pointed out his contradictions. However, he's still not the scummiest in my eyes.
Mordanis: Am I really the only one who sees the COMPLETELY blatant lack of commitment from Mord all game?
-First Half D1: Very fluffy posts with the promise to start scumhunting.
-Second Half D1: Still more fluff. Makes a long post and FoSs shipoopi (still no commitment). He does not cast a vote until very late D1 (sleepy time in my time zone). His vote is on marvel. I would normally have no issue with this if it were at a reasonable time. However, this is crunch time. A lynch on marvel isn't on the table at this point. He makes a case and commitment on something that more than likely will not happen.
Mord's posts are long and filled with nothing. He talks a lot but doesn't say anything. His posts are difficult to follow, and a lack of transparency hurts town. He avoids commitment to a case as much as he can.
[b]I'm sticking with my gut on this one. Mordanis is scum
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EBWOP:
I'm sticking with my gut on this one. Mordanis is scum.
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What I don't get about Mord is why he tried to push marv so late. When pushed to commit to the ShaioPi case and vote, he went for marv instead, a player that will definetly no be lunched today. Mord is wasting his vote.
I'm still leaning town on him. His posts are too few and too long, and he needs to be more aggressive, but there have been a few things that outweigh that.
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Mord change your vote to me or prplhz, there's no point in voting for marv, he's not going to be lynched today. Consolidate to one of the leading lynches, otherwise you are helping scum.
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On August 09 2012 22:47 Forumite wrote: Mord change your vote to me or prplhz, there's no point in voting for marv, he's not going to be lynched today. Consolidate to one of the leading lynches, otherwise you are helping scum. How so? unless we go to a double-lynch or no-lynch situation, whether I'm one of the ones to pile on a bad case or not seems irrelevant. I notice that CL is still voting me, so why am I the one you're mentioning?
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I believe this is the current votecount(If it is not please post an official one Blue or BH):
prplhz(5): DYH, Marvel, Forumite, Keirathi, risk.nuke
Forumite(5): Scib, slOosh, prplhz, Hiropro, Shiaopi
Mordanis(1): CL
Marvel(1): Mordanis
Unless people's opinions have completely changed since the beginning of today, we are about to do exactly what none of us wanted, a day 1 double lynch. This is actually the ideal scenario because they both have their votes tied up on each other, but that is beside the point. It is not ok to risk being at 6-3 at the start of day 2 based on just the limited information of today. That is why you need to switch Mord, we ARE in a double lynch scenario, and it actually has potential of going through.
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Forumite, it's the 11th hour and your neck is in the noose. Are you planning on just letting yourself hang? If you are town and there is anything that needs to be said, now is the time to do it. If you flip scum, well then good on town for not faltering.
@Mord: The difference between you and I is that I established my case early and have backed it up and stuck to it. Your vote on marvel is fairly baseless and further shows your lack of commitment to anything in this game.
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On August 09 2012 23:23 Custos Luna wrote: Forumite, it's the 11th hour and your neck is in the noose. Are you planning on just letting yourself hang? If you are town and there is anything that needs to be said, now is the time to do it. If you flip scum, well then good on town for not faltering.
@Mord: The difference between you and I is that I established my case early and have backed it up and stuck to it. Your vote on marvel is fairly baseless and further shows your lack of commitment to anything in this game. No. Your vote is useless too, and you should vote on a real candidate.
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EBWOP: DYH, looking back, that does appear to be fairly accurate. I had thought more people unvoted off prplhz and onto Forumite.
If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you.
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On August 09 2012 23:25 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:23 Custos Luna wrote: Forumite, it's the 11th hour and your neck is in the noose. Are you planning on just letting yourself hang? If you are town and there is anything that needs to be said, now is the time to do it. If you flip scum, well then good on town for not faltering.
@Mord: The difference between you and I is that I established my case early and have backed it up and stuck to it. Your vote on marvel is fairly baseless and further shows your lack of commitment to anything in this game. No. Your vote is useless too, and you should vote on a real candidate.
Trying to decide the best course of action. You're right, I want to get my vote on a real candidate. Scenarios running through my head:
-I vote Forumite: Mord can force the double lynch. If both Forumite and prplhz are town, this puts us at 6v3 for tomorrow, something I'd really like to avoid.
-I wait for Mord to vote for a real candidate: causes him to choose and I can avoid the double lynch.
If one of prpl and Forumite are scum, the double lynch benefits us. However, I'm still not entirely convinced and I'm trying to figure out how to give us the best chance into this lynch.
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Well, of the two bad cases up right now, the scummier is Forumite. He gives no reason for changing his mind from
+ Show Spoiler [This] +On August 09 2012 00:14 Forumite wrote: Clarification about my opinion of Mordanis Big posts but very few, talking about me, possible VT-claim and policy, with a lot of fluff. Overall lots of text but next to no content, which looks bad. His post about "funnily enough" asking CL feels off somehow. Mordanis needs to shape up, or at least post more.
I'm anxiosly awaiting the time when CL gets back. On August 09 2012 04:34 Forumite wrote: @mordanis You still fill your posts with fluff. It makes you look bad and makes it harder to understand what you mean. I don't want you to defend yourself about this, it's done, but if your scumhunting looks like the last post then I'm going to vote to have you lynched. to + Show Spoiler [that] +On August 09 2012 21:27 Forumite wrote: @scrib -I've allready answered why I kept saying I thought ShaioPi was scum even when I got unsure. -I got suspicious of prplhz earlier, but didn't trust my read at first, because I thought it might have been anger at him voting for me. Then he came back and didn't change my opinion after three posts, so I went with my earlier read, that he's scum.
About mord I don't think he's scum. I don't like his long posts, but he's actually my strongest townread right now.
I'm not sure if I'll be around anymore before the deadline. The main thing though is that it seems like he is just trying to muck up the thread once he dies. I don't understand why a townie close to being lynched would share town reads instead of trying to throw in some final analysis on who's scummy.
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EBWOP ## Unvote ## Vote Forumite
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Welp, I guess that's that. I'm going back to bed.
Custos, don't pull any funny business.
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On August 09 2012 23:49 Keirathi wrote: Welp, I guess that's that. I'm going back to bed.
Custos, don't pull any funny business.
I would never!
Still unsure on Forumite. But I'm less sure on prpl, and I want to pad some security against a last minute swap/double lynch.
Therefore:
##unvote Mordanis ##vote Forumite
The moon is shocked that Mord has actually committed to something.
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we are lynching forumite by 1 vote? wow
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Nice. Lets lynch this scum.
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On August 09 2012 23:56 sciberbia wrote: we are lynching forumite by 1 vote? wow
2 votes now
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Deadline over, making night post nao
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Night 1
The Dwarves were getting paranoid, and in this state, they put out Forumite in the line of fire, and he was caught by a flying axe. People were getting sick of his crafts presumably.
This is truly getting fun, if you know what i mean
It is now Night 1. Those who have actions send them to Blazinghand, I have a school event tommorow that obliges me to stay in school overnight. Deadline is around 23 hours and 50 minutes.
Forumite the Dwarf CraftsDwarf has been lynched.
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Yeah, not that surprised. Love it when townies just roll over and die.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Try to send actions to me earlier in the night if possible, though sending them later in the night is fine. Deadline is in the morning for me and doing lots of extra thinking makes my brain hurt.
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fuck......
sorry guys. sorry Forumite. gg
ugh this feels terrible. I was really expecting him to flip red and to be happy about this all day. I hope I can make up for this..
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So do we wan't to kill prplhz or mordanis tomorrow.
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Oh well, not surprising after my play early D1. Good luck town, kill the gobbos!
GG
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Forumite. Don't beat yourself up because some scrubs can't tell cowboy play from scum play. Sit your pretty self down and watch me catch the gobbo bastards.
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On August 10 2012 01:07 risk.nuke wrote: Forumite. Don't beat yourself up because some scrubs can't tell cowboy play from scum play. Sit your pretty self down and watch me catch the gobbo bastards.
Yes, because you werea bastion of helpfulness D1. The goblins falling down at your feet already.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
uhh.. gg Forumite
Don't understand you though risk, not like you have been doing that much on D1
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I don't understand you Shia you thought Forumite was scum so why after you kill him do you type a gg instead of a damn you for playing bad?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
I almost always type gg to dead players, it's just a habit/thing of manners to me. Yes, he played stupid as town but that is no reason to insult him beyond lynching him already. As he got mislynched he obviously knows now that his play can be better, no need to rub it into his face again.
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I'm lonely T_T No one to talk to.
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Well why don't you ask your scumbuddies? I'm sure they would love to have a conversation on what to do tonight.
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Talk to me HiroPro. Just got home.
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EBWOP: Actually I'm off to play tennis. sorry lol -- You can talk with CL instead. I'll be back in about 3 hours at which time I plan to catch up on everything I haven't read, reread everyone's filters, and reevaluate my preliminary reads.
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On August 10 2012 07:18 Custos Luna wrote: Well why don't you ask your scumbuddies? I'm sure they would love to have a conversation on what to do tonight.
I would love an invitation. Are you offering me one?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Sooo let's see what we can gather from the mislynch of Forumite. I am taking a closer look onto the votes and how they accumulated as it should give us some info.
The final votecount looked like this (if I am not mistaken):
prplhz(5): DYH, Marvel, Forumite, Keirathi, risk.nuke
Forumite(7): Scib, slOosh, prplhz, Hiropro, Shiaopi, Mord, CL
Scib was the one who began applying pressure by writing out a (imo) really good case and he stuck to it til the end, successfully convincing enough people to get his scumread lynched, I see no need to suspect him for now.
Sloosh voted Forumite early and continuously tried to garner support for said lynch after having a good look at the Mord case which went parallel with it. Nothing to see here as well.
prphlz: Lurks away for most of the first half of Day 1, comes in guns blazing at the moment he is under threat of getting lynched. Although I initially said I liked his response and also stated my general intent to oppose a lynch on him, now taking a look at this with some distance his timing seems quite "fitting". I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt that he was busy and just happened to have time as it turned out to be. Also his response to the votes was good. soo slightly suspicious on him for now.
HiroPro: Initially he looked okay to me but then this post here:
On August 09 2012 21:01 HiroPro wrote: Alright, I'll vote for Forumite. I suppose prplhz could just be genuinely busy.
##Unvote ##Vote Forumite
Notice that he posts it before prphlz is back in the thread responding to the votes. What makes you switch suddenly, when you were all to happy to lynch him based on meta and prphlz' few unhelpful posts at the beginning? After noticing this I also took a closer look at his filter and it is kind of empty without the post on prphlz. Also the switch from this here: + Show Spoiler +[QUOTE]On August 09 2012 05:32 HiroPro wrote: -snip-
As for Forumite, I'll wait and see. The contradiction that sciberbia and slOosh talk about (wanting to pressure Shiao but at the same time withholding reasoning because ) is certainly present but he's brought a lot more attention onto himself actively than I would expect from a scum player and definitely looks interested in town affairs. We shouldn't lynch him today. /QUOTE] to voting him off is rather quick. His filter offers some explanation via quoting an argument of scib and I cannot blame him for that as I was also convinced by scib, but coupled with the kind of unexplained switch off prphlz, I am more than raising an eyebrow. Why did you unvote prhplz before you had any new input from his side?
Mord: I believe my stance on him is quite clear from my filter. What I really do not understand is, while he is kind of right to place some distrust on marv his vote seems like such a throwaway especially with him being absent right after. But in regards to his voteswitch he delievers explanation and he makes sense with it. Also I think his play got a tad better since I called him out. I guess wait and see has to be the course of action on him. If he does some (wholly) decent case not like the against me or parts of the one against Marv I could see him as town, but until then no.
Custos: I liked his play a lot (maybe biased because he was agreeing with me), he is also taking clear stances, trying to convince people of his opinions and as a bonus also did not doublelynch when he had the possibility (that would have been suicidal as scum though if both flipped town, so it might not matter that much.)
Conclusively I want to keep an eye open on prphlz and Mordanis, while I want Hiro to answer my question before I judge him. as a heads-up I won't have too much time tomorrow and might not make it back before the deadline, will try though. Crashing out now at later than 1 AM. Night!
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I have a few questions:
@Hiropro - What are your thoughts on Shiao? on marv? Who on the Forumite wagon looks most suspicious to you? on the prplhz wagon?
@prplhz - What are your thoughts on Keirathi?
@Mordanis - Has your stance on marv changed at all?
@slOosh - With Forumite flipped townie where do you stand now?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I'm pretty curious about slOosh's lack of thread presence actually.
As for Mordanis. The meta read I get off him at the moment is town because of the fact he made a case on me. The game I remember him winning as scum he basically blended into the woodwork. Taking me on doesn't seem like the kind of risk or play he'd make as scum I don't think.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
also @risk, don't insult town if you're not willing to take steps to help direct or aid town.
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[QUOTE]On August 10 2012 08:23 ShiaoPi wrote: Sooo let's see what we can gather from the mislynch of Forumite. I am taking a closer look onto the votes and how they accumulated as it should give us some info.
The final votecount looked like this (if I am not mistaken):
prplhz(5): DYH, Marvel, Forumite, Keirathi, risk.nuke
Forumite(7): Scib, slOosh, prplhz, Hiropro, Shiaopi, Mord, CL
Scib was the one who began applying pressure by writing out a (imo) really good case and he stuck to it til the end, successfully convincing enough people to get his scumread lynched, I see no need to suspect him for now.
Sloosh voted Forumite early and continuously tried to garner support for said lynch after having a good look at the Mord case which went parallel with it. Nothing to see here as well.
prphlz: Lurks away for most of the first half of Day 1, comes in guns blazing at the moment he is under threat of getting lynched. Although I initially said I liked his response and also stated my general intent to oppose a lynch on him, now taking a look at this with some distance his timing seems quite "fitting". I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt that he was busy and just happened to have time as it turned out to be. Also his response to the votes was good. soo slightly suspicious on him for now.
HiroPro: Initially he looked okay to me but then this post here: [QUOTE]On August 09 2012 21:01 HiroPro wrote: Alright, I'll vote for Forumite. I suppose prplhz could just be genuinely busy.
##Unvote ##Vote Forumite[/QUOTE]
Notice that he posts it before prphlz is back in the thread responding to the votes. What makes you switch suddenly, when you were all to happy to lynch him based on meta and prphlz' few unhelpful posts at the beginning? After noticing this I also took a closer look at his filter and it is kind of empty without the post on prphlz. Also the switch from this here: + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 05:32 HiroPro wrote: -snip-
As for Forumite, I'll wait and see. The contradiction that sciberbia and slOosh talk about (wanting to pressure Shiao but at the same time withholding reasoning because ) is certainly present but he's brought a lot more attention onto himself actively than I would expect from a scum player and definitely looks interested in town affairs. We shouldn't lynch him today. /QUOTE] to voting him off is rather quick. His filter offers some explanation via quoting an argument of scib and I cannot blame him for that as I was also convinced by scib, but coupled with the kind of unexplained switch off prphlz, I am more than raising an eyebrow. Why did you unvote prhplz before you had any new input from his side?
Mord: I believe my stance on him is quite clear from my filter. What I really do not understand is, while he is kind of right to place some distrust on marv his vote seems like such a throwaway especially with him being absent right after. But in regards to his voteswitch he delievers explanation and he makes sense with it. Also I think his play got a tad better since I called him out. I guess wait and see has to be the course of action on him. If he does some (wholly) decent case not like the against me or parts of the one against Marv I could see him as town, but until then no.
Custos: I liked his play a lot (maybe biased because he was agreeing with me), he is also taking clear stances, trying to convince people of his opinions and as a bonus also did not doublelynch when he had the possibility (that would have been suicidal as scum though if both flipped town, so it might not matter that much.)
Conclusively I want to keep an eye open on prphlz and Mordanis, while I want Hiro to answer my question before I judge him. as a heads-up I won't have too much time tomorrow and might not make it back before the deadline, will try though. Crashing out now at later than 1 AM. Night!
I glanced at prplhz's profile and he wasnt posting anywhere so I figured he really was busy.
[QUOTE]On August 10 2012 08:43 DoYouHas wrote: I have a few questions:
@Hiropro - What are your thoughts on Shiao? on marv? Who on the Forumite wagon looks most suspicious to you? on the prplhz wagon?
@prplhz - What are your thoughts on Keirathi?
@Mordanis - Has your stance on marv changed at all?
@slOosh - With Forumite flipped townie where do you stand now? [/QUOTE]
You'll have to wait for my deadline post.
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Still at work - will be able to post in couple hours.
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Marv: Were you genuinely interested in who was actually lynched yesterday? I'm getting the feeling that you're kind of waiting for a couple of flips before jumping into scum-hunting in earnest.
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I've been reviewing D1 in light of the flip. It was pretty difficult in consolidating as many people had aversion to it for reasons that weren't "he looks like town", and would think that scum would have been more eager to jump on an easy mislynch spearheaded by townies like that but instead chose instead to split up votes among several candidates.
Which leads me to look into the prplhz lynch group based on that heuristic of being fearful of getting caught on a mislynch, where I find some independent agreement with my analysis. This will probably serve as my deadline post as I am not confident in my ability to wake up early.
marvellosity: General wishy-washyness on D1 lynch I find marv to be extremely laid back / on the fence this game. He was pretty on the fence about Forumite and I thought it could have been reasonable town confusion / indecision. However as CL has pointed out, as he invites people to discuss the case he then quickly follows up with a case and vote on CL.
On August 09 2012 00:16 marvellosity wrote: People should be discussing scib's case/Forumite today please.
On August 09 2012 00:31 marvellosity wrote: In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target. ##Vote: Custos Luna It doesn't matter if he was truly ninja'd or not. His train of thought doesn't align - he is confused about Forumite and wants more discussion, which is totally fine, but then he follows with a case and vote on CL.
On August 09 2012 00:50 marvellosity wrote: you misread: scib's case = Forumite, not scib AND forumite. i.e. I want people to be discussing Forumite (something you have avoided doing three times already on this page) but you were my current strongest read.
Clear? On August 09 2012 01:43 marvellosity wrote: my case against CL does not need to be furthered.
I am unsure about aspects of Forumite which is why I particularly want it discussed.
Now why don't you actually do so instead of nitpicking? He calls CL his strongest read. However he doesn't push that for a lynch despite being uncertain about Forumite. Looks like he wants to be seen as involved with the case but doesn't quite take a stance, nor pushes something which is more certain to him.
On August 09 2012 05:24 marvellosity wrote: I'm going to look more into the Forumite situation. Need to mull over what slOosh said to me and also see if I can make anything out of what seems to be a lot of 'meh' from people about it. On August 09 2012 08:02 marvellosity wrote: ugh this Forumite stuff is soooo dense. Ends up leaving his vote on prplhz without a final stance on Forumite we can hold him accountable to.
Discrediting Mordanis while calling him town There is also the issue with the way he pressures:
On August 09 2012 19:03 marvellosity wrote:Long story short, its either the worst "scum-tell" in history or a pressure vote. First off, lurking/inactivity is a really bad scum-tell. One prominent example comes to mind + Show Spoiler + Mufaa/Skware in NMM 14, where one player was replaced because he didn't post at all in a cycle or two, and his replacement posted a total of like 4 times in 4 cycles, and 3 of them were in the first cycle he replaced into. He literally didn't post for at least 2 cycles and missed at least 2 votes, and he was town. Even if this isn't meant as anti-lurker, looking for players who "don't care about town" doesn't make any sense at all. It's saying that he wants to lynch people for low town standing. this is so frighteningly bad I can't believe it.carry on mordanis. On August 09 2012 00:31 marvellosity wrote: In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target. ##Vote: Custos Luna This is the exact same reason that marv first votes for CL!!!
Not only that, notice that he calls him bad. Again, he does it:
On August 09 2012 19:34 marvellosity wrote: I'm perplexed by Mordanis's cases so far (on me or otherwise), and sorry bro, I don't know your posting well enough to understand if it's scum motivation or if they're just awful and full of contradictions.
This is of course on someone who has a "town" read on.
On August 10 2012 08:46 marvellosity wrote:As for Mordanis. The meta read I get off him at the moment is town because of the fact he made a case on me. The game I remember him winning as scum he basically blended into the woodwork. Taking me on doesn't seem like the kind of risk or play he'd make as scum I don't think. Notice the subtle contradiction. He is content calling Mordanis town, but is willing to openly call him bad as to discredit anything he has said / will say. This is treatment usually reserved for scum if done at all, yet this is what marv does.
All in all I find marv to be scummiest out of the bunch. I'll be here for lil bit (cafe closes in ~15 minutes), and then probably try to squeeze in some posting around lunch time tomorrow. Internet problem should be fixed by the weekend though if I live that long.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
eh slOosh
1) if I had wanted to be less wishy-washy about Foru I could easily have stuck my neck out, called him scum, and not got in trouble with it. The fact that my gut instinct on Foru was town while I believed the case was good was where the indecision came from.
2) Someone can be bad and town. What of it?
3) My case on CL was similar to my case on s0lstice in Not Themed where I backed down from it after he started contributing. There's no point in it if CL thinks it's just light pressure (this is where foru and I differ on what 'pressure' is...)
Basically you're saying I've been wishy washy in a situation as scum I could easily have come down firmly, and you're saying I'm calling Mordanis bad for being bad.
That's not a case, that's you not liking my play.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 10 2012 13:35 slOosh wrote:There is also the issue with the way he pressures: Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 19:03 marvellosity wrote:Long story short, its either the worst "scum-tell" in history or a pressure vote. First off, lurking/inactivity is a really bad scum-tell. One prominent example comes to mind + Show Spoiler + Mufaa/Skware in NMM 14, where one player was replaced because he didn't post at all in a cycle or two, and his replacement posted a total of like 4 times in 4 cycles, and 3 of them were in the first cycle he replaced into. He literally didn't post for at least 2 cycles and missed at least 2 votes, and he was town. Even if this isn't meant as anti-lurker, looking for players who "don't care about town" doesn't make any sense at all. It's saying that he wants to lynch people for low town standing. this is so frighteningly bad I can't believe it.carry on mordanis. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 00:31 marvellosity wrote: In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target. ##Vote: Custos Luna This is the exact same reason that marv first votes for CL!!!
also this is a complete misrepresentation of what occurred in thread. I was calling Mordanis bad for saying that looking for players who don't care about town doesn't make sense. So of course it's the same fucking reason I voted for CL...
Why did you choose to edit out the formatting from my post that made it clear that it was not I, myself, talking in the first quote there?
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Alright guys. Posting this now so that it can be followed upon should I be killed tonight.
I can completely see a situation in which the scum team is as follows: Mordanis, prplhz, HiroPro
I am making the assumption, for the sake of argument, that prplhz is scum. This is because he has the least content to go off of. However, it all plays out rather nicely.
Since you've all heard my original case on Mordanis, I will start with HiroPro. Hiro's D1 posts were pretty useless. His entire filter is mostly 1 to 2 liners. He jumps on the prplhz wagon. He wants to distance himself from his scumbuddy. However, this wagon actually started to gain some momentum, and as you can see in this post about halfway through D1:
On August 09 2012 14:15 Blazinghand wrote: Vote Count
prplhz (5): DoYouHas, Marvellosity, HiroPro, Forumite, Keirathi Forumite (3): Sciberbia, slOosh, prplhz Mordanis (2): ShiaoPi, Custos Luna
prplhz is currently set to be lynched.
The deadline is in ~9.75 hours at Thursday, Aug 09 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). The person with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
prplhz was set to be lynched. If you then look at this post by DYH:
On August 09 2012 23:23 DoYouHas wrote: I believe this is the current votecount(If it is not please post an official one Blue or BH):
prplhz(5): DYH, Marvel, Forumite, Keirathi, risk.nuke
Forumite(5): Scib, slOosh, prplhz, Hiropro, Shiaopi
Mordanis(1): CL
Marvel(1): Mordanis
Unless people's opinions have completely changed since the beginning of today, we are about to do exactly what none of us wanted, a day 1 double lynch. This is actually the ideal scenario because they both have their votes tied up on each other, but that is beside the point. It is not ok to risk being at 6-3 at the start of day 2 based on just the limited information of today. That is why you need to switch Mord, we ARE in a double lynch scenario, and it actually has potential of going through.
You'll notice that HiroPro is the ONLY one who switched from prplhz to Forumite. You'll notice that both of his votes were 3rd/4th in chronological order, which is a classic scum position (one that has gotten me caught as scum in the past). It is late enough so he doesn't get blame for starting the votes, but also not so late that he gets the credit for getting the lynch to pass. His voting position shows the dilemma he was in. His scumbuddy was set to be lynched, so he needed to get momentum onto the other popular candidate, Forumite.
Now, for Mordanis. My case still stands, and I am now going to expand upon it. He was screwed over by his own lack of commitment D1. He did his best to distance himself from everything. However, at EOD1, he was forced to make a decision on the lynch. I was NOT going to let a double lynch go through, and I made that very clear. He could bus prplhz to look more townie, but since he was forced to make the decision, it was not truly his own, and he would still be scummy in my eyes. It would also leave his team with 2 members after D1, a situation no scum team wants to be in.
For his own safety, and the greatest benefit for his team, Mordanis was forced to vote Forumite. He ended up placing his vote because if there was a double lynch, it would have left his team at a disadvantage anyway.
Now, this argument isn't as strong if prplhz isn't scum. But I am fairly comfortable with a prplhz lynch D2 at this point.
I may have overlooked things, but these are my thoughts, and I'm very open to discussion and flexibility should I live through the night. May the moon protect me.
(This is my last post before deadline, hopefully I won't be back too long afterwards.)
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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We're coming for you, scum!
So here are the people I'm most interested in today (in no particular order):
risk.nuke 1)Did nothing on day 1 except talk about policy and setup until his vote on prplhz. 2)He didn't have a single mention of any scumhunting in his filter besides 2 one-liners about prplhz: calling him out for lurking, and voting him. 3)Made no mention whatsoever of the Forumite or Mordanis cases, but after the night flip he says "Forumite. Don't beat yourself up because some scrubs can't tell cowboy play from scum play. Sit your pretty self down and watch me catch the gobbo bastards.". Why weren't you there defending him pre-flip if you were so sure he was a "cowbow"? 4) Just being off the Forumite vote makes me more weary of him.
prplhz Nothing really new to add here. I still think he has a good chance of flipping scum. Lurking/uninterested, his one "contribution" was hopping on his counterwagon. Promise of more contributions, so lets see what happens today.
HiroPro The timing and reasoning for his switch onto Forumite is suspicious. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 05:32 HiroPro wrote:Let's kill prplhz. As town he may act overwhelmed at times but he certainly doesn't display the attitude or lack of interest that he does here. This is much more like his scum games ( Normal Mini II and Movie Star) where he acts annoyed and angry for no reason and does nothing. As for Forumite, I'll wait and see. The contradiction that sciberbia and slOosh talk about (wanting to pressure Shiao but at the same time withholding reasoning because ) is certainly present but he's brought a lot more attention onto himself actively than I would expect from a scum player and definitely looks interested in town affairs. We shouldn't lynch him today. ##Vote prplhz Extremely strong stance: Lynch prplhz, don't lynch Forumite. But then: + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 20:23 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote + 1) I grow weary of pointing out Forumite's blatant self-contradictions, but originally, after prplhz's first two posts, Forumite lists prplhz as a nulltell. Then suddenly, without any new posts from prplhz, Forumite wants to lynch prplhz or mord. And later, Forumite clarifies that prplhz actually did seem scummy from the first two posts alone. Blatant contradiction.
Hm this is a good point. into On August 09 2012 21:01 HiroPro wrote: Alright, I'll vote for Forumite. I suppose prplhz could just be genuinely busy.
##Unvote ##Vote Forumite .
You seemed really confident in your initial read, so I find it hard to believe that this weak reasoning was enough for you to do a complete 180 on yourself. The fact that is was just 5 minutes before prplhz came into the thread to defend himself is icing on the cake.
Also, I'm still extremely wary of marv. He made a case on CL then didn't want to talk about it anymore because "it didn't need to be furthered". What, were you just expecting people to hop on at some point for no more reasoning/discussion? Was it just a pressure vote? I really did't understand your reasoning, and got called out for "being on drugs" when I tried to get you to explain.
Secondly, the style of his questioning is just weird compared to other games of his when he is town. Take a look at his filter in I Can't Believe It's Not Themed ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147&user=140487 for reference) and compare his poking and prodding to here. Its hard to put into words what exactly I find different, but his questioning this game feels...open ended? Like he doesn't have a clear goal in mind when he asks them. Nor did he seem very invested into who was actually lynched. Also he just feels less "bulldog"-y this game, but I'm not sure how much of that is because he's been busy.
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I have a RL issue to take care of, so this will be my last post.
I don't have the time to go through filters again but I'll summarize my thoughts.
sciberbia is town. His case on Forumite had a lot of effort and he's been consistently townie throughout this game.
Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case.
Luna is scum. No experienced player would make a post like the one he just did as town. He makes a big assumption in calling prplhz scum and then uses that to justify everything else. This is especially strange since all of yesterday he was saying prplhz's alignment is unclear.
Shiao and Keirathi should be looked at very closely. Shiao pushed Mordanis for reasons that had nothing to do with him being scum and he seems very nervous and reluctant to call people scum (look at his night post on the Forumite voters). Keirathi is not sharing his ideas really at all. Marv is not playing the way that I'm used to seeing him as town, dunno about him.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Day 2
Goblins aren't the only creatures that thirst for the blood of dwarves. The obvious threats aside, some creatures with benign names or descriptions can be alarmingly deadly. A sudden wildlife attack can cripple or destroy an unprepared fortress. I know personally of many a fortress overrun with Elephants, Eagles and other horrifying creatures. You probably do too.
It is for this reason that the Dwarven Rangers exist. These Dwarves, ever brave, ever watchful, journey far beyond the comfortable depths of the mountain homes, braving the elements of the above-ground world. They do so not just to travel to new fortresses or to take part in great wars, but as part of their daily lives. Working as hunters and scouts, they are integral parts of any Fortress. In the choice between what's right and what's easy, they choose what is right. Living above grounds, in the harsh cold and bitterly bright sunlight, they go daily where few Dwarves go ever.
They are the first line of defense against the darkness, and with their crossbows they fight off many an ambush, unheralded heroes of any settlement. Oh, sure, the Militia Captain wrestled a dragon to death, or perhaps a legendary miner sunk his pick into the dark heart of a Demon from below... but who stops the baby snatchers and thieves? Who stops the rampaging lions and vultures? The few, the proud, the Rangers. And it's not unusual for them to turn up dead and maimed in the wilderness, either. Still, it's unsettling, and the wounds aren't claw marks but stab wounds. No, Marvellosity roamed too far, and he faced the Goblins alone. His death is a tragedy we must all share.
He will be buried in a tomb fit for a Hero of the Mountainhomes, since he gave his life in the line of duty. He died fighting Goblins, just like a Dwarf, just like any Dwarf would be proud to. A good death.
Marvellosity the Dwarven Ranger was found dead!
The deadline is in ~48 hours at Sunday, Aug 12 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). The person with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
you're having a fucking laugh....
gg.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
sorry dude posting via phone is hard ;_; I promise awesome fluff/flavor when I have lunch break, you will have died honorably as only a dwarf can
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
it was directed at the fact I died, not your lack of content dearest.
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gg marv
Looking back at marv's filter, I think there's a good possibility he was an intentional watcher-snipe. Keep in mind that scum knew this was a watcher setup, and then look at these quotes from marv:
On August 08 2012 00:50 marvellosity wrote: Relatedly, and it should go without saying but sometimes I see people not adhere to this, everyone must let town know when they've been roleblocked.
On August 08 2012 06:28 marvellosity wrote: that's fucking ridiculous. so you have one setup - cop, which is already by far the most powerful
then you neuter the other two setups completely by denying watcher/tracker of like 90% of their power.
wtf is that about.
On August 08 2012 08:47 marvellosity wrote: I think postulating about a setup we only have 1/3 of the time with various unknown lynches/nightkills in the way is quite an unproductive use of thread space. Even in your post you say "for things without Hiro realises" without expanding upon them. Looks like crap designed to spam up the thread.
Also, apparently everybody noticed a difference in marv's scumhunting from what we were expecting. He seemed much more restrained in calling out scum than he did in my last game with him where he was VT.
In conclusion, I think there is a reasonably good chance marv was killed because scum thought he was the watcher.
Anyway, I didn't get to as much filter reading last night as I would have liked, and I really don't know who I'd most like to lynch today. I agree that HiroPro's vote switch was suspicious, but it probably means nothing is prplhz is town, and possibly means everything if prplhz is scum, so I'm not sure what to make of the situation, as I am pretty null on prplhz right now.
I'll reread more this evening when I get home from work, and can hopefully find someone I feel really good about lynching today.
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EBWOP: also, check PMs and claim if you were roleblocked. I was not.
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Gah! Wow ... Just got the rug pulled out under me ...
I'll be rereading in light of the flip and also the 3 deadline posts from CL, Keirathi and HiroPro, and hopefully have some thoughts ready by early today.
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On August 11 2012 01:01 sciberbia wrote:
In conclusion, I think there is a reasonably good chance marv was killed because scum thought he was the watcher.
This is possible. However, I believe that the scum team is trying to incriminate me. They want to set me up for a lynch. They are using the fact that marvel placed a vote on me and they want town to think that marvel was killed because of it.
If you notice in Hiro's last post (before day post), he posts claiming I'm scum:
On August 11 2012 00:04 HiroPro wrote: I have a RL issue to take care of, so this will be my last post.
I don't have the time to go through filters again but I'll summarize my thoughts.
sciberbia is town. His case on Forumite had a lot of effort and he's been consistently townie throughout this game.
Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case.
Luna is scum. No experienced player would make a post like the one he just did as town. He makes a big assumption in calling prplhz scum and then uses that to justify everything else. This is especially strange since all of yesterday he was saying prplhz's alignment is unclear.
Shiao and Keirathi should be looked at very closely. Shiao pushed Mordanis for reasons that had nothing to do with him being scum and he seems very nervous and reluctant to call people scum (look at his night post on the Forumite voters). Keirathi is not sharing his ideas really at all. Marv is not playing the way that I'm used to seeing him as town, dunno about him.
He and his scumbuddies have created a situation in which they can try to get me killed.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Day Post flavor is up! Check it out: (link)
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On August 11 2012 02:14 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 01:01 sciberbia wrote:
In conclusion, I think there is a reasonably good chance marv was killed because scum thought he was the watcher.
This is possible. However, I believe that the scum team is trying to incriminate me. They want to set me up for a lynch. They are using the fact that marvel placed a vote on me and they want town to think that marvel was killed because of it. If you notice in Hiro's last post (before day post), he posts claiming I'm scum: Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:04 HiroPro wrote: I have a RL issue to take care of, so this will be my last post.
I don't have the time to go through filters again but I'll summarize my thoughts.
sciberbia is town. His case on Forumite had a lot of effort and he's been consistently townie throughout this game.
Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case.
Luna is scum. No experienced player would make a post like the one he just did as town. He makes a big assumption in calling prplhz scum and then uses that to justify everything else. This is especially strange since all of yesterday he was saying prplhz's alignment is unclear.
Shiao and Keirathi should be looked at very closely. Shiao pushed Mordanis for reasons that had nothing to do with him being scum and he seems very nervous and reluctant to call people scum (look at his night post on the Forumite voters). Keirathi is not sharing his ideas really at all. Marv is not playing the way that I'm used to seeing him as town, dunno about him. He and his scumbuddies have created a situation in which they can try to get me killed. Sweet WIFOM.
I'll tell you what, I'll play along too. CL is scum and engineered the kill to make it look like people were out to get him so he'd have a couple of easy mislynches. Or perhaps CL knew that he'd be called out for WIFOM so he made himself seem paranoid in a good paranoid-townie way, and he's trying to buy town cred. Or perhaps WIFOM isn't a good way to play.
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On August 11 2012 03:29 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:14 Custos Luna wrote:On August 11 2012 01:01 sciberbia wrote:
In conclusion, I think there is a reasonably good chance marv was killed because scum thought he was the watcher.
This is possible. However, I believe that the scum team is trying to incriminate me. They want to set me up for a lynch. They are using the fact that marvel placed a vote on me and they want town to think that marvel was killed because of it. If you notice in Hiro's last post (before day post), he posts claiming I'm scum: On August 11 2012 00:04 HiroPro wrote: I have a RL issue to take care of, so this will be my last post.
I don't have the time to go through filters again but I'll summarize my thoughts.
sciberbia is town. His case on Forumite had a lot of effort and he's been consistently townie throughout this game.
Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case.
Luna is scum. No experienced player would make a post like the one he just did as town. He makes a big assumption in calling prplhz scum and then uses that to justify everything else. This is especially strange since all of yesterday he was saying prplhz's alignment is unclear.
Shiao and Keirathi should be looked at very closely. Shiao pushed Mordanis for reasons that had nothing to do with him being scum and he seems very nervous and reluctant to call people scum (look at his night post on the Forumite voters). Keirathi is not sharing his ideas really at all. Marv is not playing the way that I'm used to seeing him as town, dunno about him. He and his scumbuddies have created a situation in which they can try to get me killed. Sweet WIFOM. I'll tell you what, I'll play along too. CL is scum and engineered the kill to make it look like people were out to get him so he'd have a couple of easy mislynches. Or perhaps CL knew that he'd be called out for WIFOM so he made himself seem paranoid in a good paranoid-townie way, and he's trying to buy town cred. Or perhaps WIFOM isn't a good way to play.
What I presented wasn't even WIFOM. It's a scum plan that I recognize because I have done the exact same thing in the past and succeeded. I am not about to let it happen to me. I'm being logical, you're talking out your ass as you have done all game.
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On August 11 2012 03:37 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 03:29 Mordanis wrote:On August 11 2012 02:14 Custos Luna wrote:On August 11 2012 01:01 sciberbia wrote:
In conclusion, I think there is a reasonably good chance marv was killed because scum thought he was the watcher.
This is possible. However, I believe that the scum team is trying to incriminate me. They want to set me up for a lynch. They are using the fact that marvel placed a vote on me and they want town to think that marvel was killed because of it. If you notice in Hiro's last post (before day post), he posts claiming I'm scum: On August 11 2012 00:04 HiroPro wrote: I have a RL issue to take care of, so this will be my last post.
I don't have the time to go through filters again but I'll summarize my thoughts.
sciberbia is town. His case on Forumite had a lot of effort and he's been consistently townie throughout this game.
Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case.
Luna is scum. No experienced player would make a post like the one he just did as town. He makes a big assumption in calling prplhz scum and then uses that to justify everything else. This is especially strange since all of yesterday he was saying prplhz's alignment is unclear.
Shiao and Keirathi should be looked at very closely. Shiao pushed Mordanis for reasons that had nothing to do with him being scum and he seems very nervous and reluctant to call people scum (look at his night post on the Forumite voters). Keirathi is not sharing his ideas really at all. Marv is not playing the way that I'm used to seeing him as town, dunno about him. He and his scumbuddies have created a situation in which they can try to get me killed. Sweet WIFOM. I'll tell you what, I'll play along too. CL is scum and engineered the kill to make it look like people were out to get him so he'd have a couple of easy mislynches. Or perhaps CL knew that he'd be called out for WIFOM so he made himself seem paranoid in a good paranoid-townie way, and he's trying to buy town cred. Or perhaps WIFOM isn't a good way to play. What I presented wasn't even WIFOM. It's a scum plan that I recognize because I have done the exact same thing in the past and succeeded. I am not about to let it happen to me. I'm being logical, you're talking out your ass as you have done all game. No. He's right, your post was literally the definition of WIFOM.
I'm not saying you aren't right, because I am suspicious of HiroPro too, but trying to outguess the scum, who aren't guessing to begin with, is what WIFOM is.
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Ok, I suppose, since I'm looking at it from a different way, I'm not seeing it as WIFOM.
Regardless, I want to nip it in the butt before it starts.
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To clarify, what I was referring to as WIFOM wasn't your statement of "Hey don't kill me based on marv being killed", it was "Yo dawgs, don't kill me because marv was killed, lynch these other guys who set me up.". I agree that it isn't good to read into a NK too much, because you get into really bad WIFOM territory. I just think it doesn't make any sense to be against reading into the NK to lynch you but for reading into the NK to lynch other people.
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As far as nightkills goes I think it's more likely they just killed one of the vets who they didn't think would be medicprotected.
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I didn't say "don't kill me because marvel died". I'm laying out what I see. I'm stating the situation and I want everyone to look at the sequence of events. I'm not against reading into the NK in any situation. I'm advocating that everyone read into the situation as a whole.
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That's where you're getting into WIFOM though. To say scum killed for one reason and therefore we should act in your prescribed way is absurd. Let's go back to that scene from Princess Bride- You say you know what the scum are trying to accomplish with their kill. But they could have known that a wily veteran would catch on to their plan, and put you on the wrong track by killing "the wrong person". But you could have seen through their attempt to put you on the wrong track, and voted for someone else. But they could have known that you'd see through their ruse, and the cycle repeats.
In short, it makes a lot of sense to me to say "Don't lynch me because in one situation I'd be trying to get rid of marv because he voted for me", but it makes none to then say "now lynch these other dudes because in one situation they're trying to set me up". By calling out 3 players and calling them a scumteam and then saying that the scumteam is trying to screw you over with their KP you are arguing for lynching all 3 of the players you called out. You can't argue (well) that the best course of action is to lynch 3 people in a row based on a logical jump (that prplhz is scum) plus connection play based on that leap.
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CL, I don't like that you have brought out a connection case this early in the game. My experiences with connection cases is that they are rarely accurate when presented on day3 and you posted this at the end of N1. I also don't like your WIFOM. You, risk, and scib have all posted possible reasons marv was hit, and they are all equally possible. Speculating on night hits is pointless without corroborating evidence.
However, I do agree some of your points and who you are suspicious of.
The fact that it took vote switching instead of a clear majority to lynch Forumite increases the chance that prplhz is scum and that his scumbuddies manipulated the vote. That would make Hiro, Shiao, and Mord the suspicious parties day1. This is convienent as those are the people I have been most suspicious of after prplhz already.
I'm going to withold my vote for now. I need to do some more filter digging and put together an actual case before I commit to pushing someone.
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Actually, in my mind, the scummiest thing in the entire game so far has been your argument to lynch 3 players in a row based on the assumption that one of the players is scum, and then connection-based logic on Hiro.
##Vote Custos Luna
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On August 11 2012 08:07 DoYouHas wrote: CL, I don't like that you have brought out a connection case this early in the game. My experiences with connection cases is that they are rarely accurate when presented on day3 and you posted this at the end of N1. I also don't like your WIFOM. You, risk, and scib have all posted possible reasons marv was hit, and they are all equally possible. Speculating on night hits is pointless without corroborating evidence.
However, I do agree some of your points and who you are suspicious of.
The fact that it took vote switching instead of a clear majority to lynch Forumite increases the chance that prplhz is scum and that his scumbuddies manipulated the vote. That would make Hiro, Shiao, and Mord the suspicious parties day1. This is convienent as those are the people I have been most suspicious of after prplhz already.
I'm going to withold my vote for now. I need to do some more filter digging and put together an actual case before I commit to pushing someone. CL also changed his vote to Forumite.
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On August 09 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: EBWOP: DYH, looking back, that does appear to be fairly accurate. I had thought more people unvoted off prplhz and onto Forumite.
If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you. EBWOP: I think this makes it clear that CL wouldn't have voted for prplhz, so by DYH's logic CL should also be under scrutiny.
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Aww, you really are quite adorable Mord.
I am going to preface this post with the fact that I have been completely and utterly transparent with town this entire game. Because of this, nothing that I'm saying will be new, but purely reiteration. It seems, though, that Mord needs a refresher. Understandable though, as it's hard to keep track of the thread as well as the mafia QT at the same time.
Before the EOD1, prplhz and Forumite were tied. I told you to make a commitment, and you chose Forumite. Regardless of who you chose, I was going to go the same way as you. I was NOT going to let a double lynch happen. If you did not end up switching your vote, I was going to vote Forumite to avoid the double lynch. I was not convinced on either case, but since prplhz had less to go on, Forumite would have been the choice.
On August 11 2012 08:12 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: EBWOP: DYH, looking back, that does appear to be fairly accurate. I had thought more people unvoted off prplhz and onto Forumite.
If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you. EBWOP: I think this makes it clear that CL wouldn't have voted for prplhz, so by DYH's logic CL should also be under scrutiny.
By all means, scrutinize away.
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I'm going to reread the thread. I'm in kind of a unique position 'cause I know that scum wasn't worried about getting one of their own lynched yesterday so I think they were on the lurky side. Will report back.
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On August 11 2012 08:07 DoYouHas wrote: CL, I don't like that you have brought out a connection case this early in the game. My experiences with connection cases is that they are rarely accurate when presented on day3 and you posted this at the end of N1. I also don't like your WIFOM. You, risk, and scib have all posted possible reasons marv was hit, and they are all equally possible. Speculating on night hits is pointless without corroborating evidence.
However, I do agree some of your points and who you are suspicious of.
The fact that it took vote switching instead of a clear majority to lynch Forumite increases the chance that prplhz is scum and that his scumbuddies manipulated the vote. That would make Hiro, Shiao, and Mord the suspicious parties day1. This is convienent as those are the people I have been most suspicious of after prplhz already.
I'm going to withold my vote for now. I need to do some more filter digging and put together an actual case before I commit to pushing someone.
Yes, I understand a connection case this early is very unprecedented. I already said it may not be fully accurate and that I'm very open to discussion about it. It does bring a nice bowl of scummy activity for town to observe though.
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You still would have chosen Foru in any case except for me voting for prplhz. DYH was saying that people changing their vote to Foru were suspicious. Your first choice and actual action was a vote for Foru. Ergo by DYH's logic, you should have been on the list of suspicion. Your name was not featured, and it should have been.
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Hunting scum on the premise that I'm scum is bad scum hunting (and it's also bad because I'm not scum and you're not going to find anything from this premise).
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On August 11 2012 08:39 prplhz wrote: Hunting scum on the premise that I'm scum is bad scum hunting (and it's also bad because I'm not scum and you're not going to find anything from this premise).
Not hunting scum at all is bad scum hunting. Would love for you to actually do something
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Hey CL, if you're so certain you've found the scum-team, why haven't you voted?
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Why would it be necessary for me to jump the gun? Everyone knows where my mind is at, I've been quite public about it, if you haven't noticed. There are still many hours for my vote to be cast. I have no need to rush at this point.
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Waiting to see which bandwagon forms and jump in at around 3rd or 4th place? Why would you wait? Do you think that a 2 hour day cycle would benefit town? All waiting for the inevitable does is take away time from discussion, and make you look more scummy. If you're truly as transparent as you claim to be, you should be voting for your strongest of your 3 reads. Delaying only gives you the oppurtunity to jump on whatever bandwagon you please and takes time away. Which of prplhz, me, and Hiro are you most convinced is scum? Since you're pretty into commitment and transparency, I'm sure you'll be glad to tell us all.
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Thank you thank you thank you Mordanis. Your point about me not including CL was absolutley right, and I was pondering my answer in the shower when I had a bit of a revelation.
CL's voteswitch was unique from the others in a very specific way. He let you pick for him Mord.
On August 09 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you.
On August 09 2012 23:36 Custos Luna wrote: Trying to decide the best course of action. You're right, I want to get my vote on a real candidate. Scenarios running through my head:
-I vote Forumite: Mord can force the double lynch. If both Forumite and prplhz are town, this puts us at 6v3 for tomorrow, something I'd really like to avoid.
-I wait for Mord to vote for a real candidate: causes him to choose and I can avoid the double lynch.
If one of prpl and Forumite are scum, the double lynch benefits us. However, I'm still not entirely convinced and I'm trying to figure out how to give us the best chance into this lynch. He implies multiple times that voting Forumite is what he wants to do, so why not actually do it? His reason is that he fears that Mord will force the double lynch if he votes first. But is this a rational fear? no. If Mord is town then he would realize that everyone does not want a double lynch day1 and would not cause one. He probably would have sat on marv and been content that CL took the decision out of his hands. If Mord is scum then he would realize that the town is going to lynch him day2 if he forces a last minute double lynch and that a 2 for 1 trade isn't bad for town day1. Neither alignment would have forced that double lynch in Mord's position.
So why would CL put Mord (someone he is supposed to believe is scum, drastically increasing the chance of a mislynch) firmly in the driver's seat of yesterday's lynch? I can think of only one answer: CL knew that either choice would end in a townie flip and did not want to be tied to the blame for it. The language he uses leading up to the lynch only strengthens my belief that this is the case. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: EBWOP: DYH, looking back, that does appear to be fairly accurate. I had thought more people unvoted off prplhz and onto Forumite.
If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you. Firm stance on wanting to switch to Forum, immediately hands reins over to Mord to choose Forum or prplhz. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 23:36 Custos Luna wrote: If one of prpl and Forumite are scum, the double lynch benefits us. However, I'm still not entirely convinced and I'm trying to figure out how to give us the best chance into this lynch. Begins to distance himself from a Forumite lynch and even entertains double lynching. + Show Spoiler [Important One] +On August 09 2012 23:54 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:49 Keirathi wrote: Welp, I guess that's that. I'm going back to bed.
Custos, don't pull any funny business. I would never! Still unsure on Forumite. But I'm less sure on prpl, and I want to pad some security against a last minute swap/double lynch. Therefore: ##unvote Mordanis ##vote ForumiteThe moon is shocked that Mord has actually committed to something. This is a very important post tone-wise. It starts with a mischievous tone with the bantering line of "I would never!". This bantering statement tells me that CL just relaxed a bit, or even is feeling a bit victorious. This is immediately is followed by an even bigger distancing statement, "Still unsure on Forumite. But I'm less sure on prpl". Then his 'moon' closing is even a bit off of the normal. Up until this point the moon comments by CL have been either normal signoffs or threats. This one is different, it reads to me like a self satisfied dig at Mord, which seems out of place until I fit it to my theory.
Custos Luna is SCUM
##Vote: Custos Luna
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On August 10 2012 23:08 Custos Luna wrote: Since you've all heard my original case on Mordanis, I will start with HiroPro. Hiro's D1 posts were pretty useless. His entire filter is mostly 1 to 2 liners. He jumps on the prplhz wagon. He wants to distance himself from his scumbuddy.
Could you explain how this is scummy? Because if you can't it means your read on HiroPro is entirely based off prplhz's unknown alignment.
On August 09 2012 13:51 Keirathi wrote: -- Mordanis -- His play fits the way he played as town in NMM XXII so far. However, his lack of scumhunting is kind of bothering me, because even despite the verbosity and the absurb "discussion" case to start the game, he still had a reasonable case (or two?) before day 1 deadline. He did end up having good reads in that game though, once you waded through all the verbosity, so hopefully he gets some cases out soon.
What's your opinion on Mordanis in light of his marv case? Also Shiaopi in general.
Catching up on DYH's case.
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Mmm ...
I think scum are quite unlikely to pull off a double lynch hammer ever since it is a 1 for 1 trade (cause it assumes you can get a mislynch without it) ... but DYH is definitely correct that giving lynch decision to your scum read makes absolutely no sense and is shirking responsibility.
Shiaopi what do you make of the Mordanis - CL issue?
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On August 11 2012 13:18 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 13:51 Keirathi wrote: -- Mordanis -- His play fits the way he played as town in NMM XXII so far. However, his lack of scumhunting is kind of bothering me, because even despite the verbosity and the absurb "discussion" case to start the game, he still had a reasonable case (or two?) before day 1 deadline. He did end up having good reads in that game though, once you waded through all the verbosity, so hopefully he gets some cases out soon.
What's your opinion on Mordanis in light of his marv case? Also Shiaopi in general. His case on marv actually shared a lot of similarities to my personal problems with marv's play this game. However, I realized that it wasn't worth it to post a case on him that late in the day because it would literally lead to nothing. The day was 99.9% going to come down to Forumite vs prplhz, so I personally spent my time weighing the merits of each of those cases.
My problem with his case, though, was that he voted marv with a 100% throwaway vote. Marv wasn't going to get lynched, so what was the point?
On the other hand, I find it extremely unlikely that scum Mordanis, being a relative newbie, would want to pick a fight with marv if he knew marv was town.
Overall, I'm leaning slightly town on him still.
Regarding ShiaoPi, when I was making my list of suspects for my night post, I didn't find anything particularly overtly scummy. His case on Mord didn't make much sense to me because the things he called Mord out for (being overly verbose, and wishy-washy) is just how Mord is, no matter what his alignment is. It's like calling Chezinu out for trolling.
Overall, pretty thoroughly null, maybe leaning slightly on the red side. I wouldn't be interested in pushing him today as I feel there are much better candidates.
I'm really intrigued by DYH's case on Custos. Something about his late day1 play was bothering me, but I couldn't pinpoint exactly what it was. Sheeping someone that you believe is scum makes ZERO FUCKING SENSE.
He's moved up pretty high on my current scum list.
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EBWOP: Actually, until I hear a good explanation:
##Vote Custos Luna
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DYH: Your first post indicating that the people who switched their votes were suspicious was based on prplhz being scum. Your accusation of CL assumes that prplhz is town. So how are you leaning right now?
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DoYouHas pulling out some big guns. I like that. ##unvote: prplhz ##vote: Custos Luna
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I'm done digging through filters, and unfortunately no one person sticks out at me as particularly scummy. This is troubling since we really need a scum lynch today. Anyway, here are some of my most current and relevant thoughts:
on Custos Luna DYH made some good points. I have no idea why CL thought it was a good idea to let his primary scumread decide who got lynched yesterday. I'm very interested to hear CL's explanation of his actions.
That said, I'm not comfortable with the overwhelming anti-CL sentiment in the thread right now. There are several things in his filter that suggest to me that he is townie. But before I try to dissuade anyone from voting him today, I'd like to see his response to DYH's case.
on Shiaopi and DYH I voiced suspicions of both of these players yesterday, but I have changed my mind about both of them, and I'm not interested in lynching either of them today. I'll explain why I changed my mind if either of them becomes a lynch candidate.
risk.nuke, slOosh, HiroPro, prplhz This is the group that I'd like us to lynch into today. I am neutral or leaning town on all of the more active players right now, and these 4 are not only lurky and therefore difficult to read, but they are also supposedly 'vets', which makes their lack of activity especially alarming. The lurkiness would stick out more, if not for the fact that all 4 of them are doing it..
slOosh and risk.nuke are the very definition of 'under the radar'. We've hardly talked about them at all. prplhz lurked most of the day yesterday, and still has yet to contribute much. HiroPro also lacks much content. Additionally there are 2 things in his filter I take issue with (his voteswitch and his confident assertion that CL is scum).
Additionally, I want to point out of that CL is a vet who has recently emerged from lurkiness, and we are all biting his head off for his activity, when I think we really ought to be more concerned about the lurky vets right now.
I really, really want to see more from all of these players. If I had to pick 1 person to lynch right now, it would probably be HiroPro. I'll post more about him a bit later, but I'm taking a break for now. I've been staring at filters and my notes for hours.
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Activity this game is really low
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Oh dear, so this is what happens when I leave you guys unsupervised for a night?
Ok then, let's get to work. (My responses in his quote)
On August 11 2012 11:31 DoYouHas wrote:Thank you thank you thank you Mordanis. Your point about me not including CL was absolutley right, and I was pondering my answer in the shower when I had a bit of a revelation. CL's voteswitch was unique from the others in a very specific way. He let you pick for him Mord. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:36 Custos Luna wrote: Trying to decide the best course of action. You're right, I want to get my vote on a real candidate. Scenarios running through my head:
-I vote Forumite: Mord can force the double lynch. If both Forumite and prplhz are town, this puts us at 6v3 for tomorrow, something I'd really like to avoid.
-I wait for Mord to vote for a real candidate: causes him to choose and I can avoid the double lynch.
If one of prpl and Forumite are scum, the double lynch benefits us. However, I'm still not entirely convinced and I'm trying to figure out how to give us the best chance into this lynch. He implies multiple times that voting Forumite is what he wants to do, so why not actually do it? Actually, I stated many times that I was very unsure that Forumite was scum, which is why I left my vote on Mord for so long. His reason is that he fears that Mord will force the double lynch if he votes first. But is this a rational fear? no. If Mord is town then he would realize that everyone does not want a double lynch day1 and would not cause one. He probably would have sat on marv and been content that CL took the decision out of his hands. If Mord is scum then he would realize that the town is going to lynch him day2 if he forces a last minute double lynch and that a 2 for 1 trade isn't bad for town day1. Would the town chastise Mord for causing the double lynch?! Because, quite honestly, I have huge doubts whether they would. Neither alignment would have forced that double lynch in Mord's position. So why would CL put Mord (someone he is supposed to believe is scum, drastically increasing the chance of a mislynch) firmly in the driver's seat of yesterday's lynch? I can think of only one answer: CL knew that either choice would end in a townie flip and did not want to be tied to the blame for it. The language he uses leading up to the lynch only strengthens my belief that this is the case. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: EBWOP: DYH, looking back, that does appear to be fairly accurate. I had thought more people unvoted off prplhz and onto Forumite.
If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you. Firm stance on wanting to switch to Forum, immediately hands reins over to Mord to choose Forum or prplhz. How is that at all a firm stance on wanting to switch to Forumite? I said "if it is necessary" because I did NOT necessarily want to switch Forumite. I had said that, at the time, Forumite looked scummier than prplhz because prplhz has had next to 0 presence all game, but I wasn't convinced that Forumite was scum. I had also stated my misgivings with a double lynch and that I would avoid doing that if I could. Mord had been avoiding the commitment all game and I was now forcing it upon him. I was hoping that the town would see what I saw and follow my train of thought, but clearly that is not the case. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 23:36 Custos Luna wrote: If one of prpl and Forumite are scum, the double lynch benefits us. However, I'm still not entirely convinced and I'm trying to figure out how to give us the best chance into this lynch. Begins to distance himself from a Forumite lynch and even entertains double lynching. + Show Spoiler [Important One] +On August 09 2012 23:54 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:49 Keirathi wrote: Welp, I guess that's that. I'm going back to bed.
Custos, don't pull any funny business. I would never! Still unsure on Forumite. But I'm less sure on prpl, and I want to pad some security against a last minute swap/double lynch. Therefore: ##unvote Mordanis ##vote ForumiteThe moon is shocked that Mord has actually committed to something. This is a very important post tone-wise. It starts with a mischievous tone with the bantering line of "I would never!". This bantering statement tells me that CL just relaxed a bit, or even is feeling a bit victorious. This is immediately is followed by an even bigger distancing statement, "Still unsure on Forumite. But I'm less sure on prpl". Then his 'moon' closing is even a bit off of the normal. Up until this point the moon comments by CL have been either normal signoffs or threats. This one is different, it reads to me like a self satisfied dig at Mord, which seems out of place until I fit it to my theory. Oh good lord this one is a stretch, but ok. My "moon" statements have all been flavor. Let's be serious, my name is fucking Custos Luna, I'm making some fun out of the game. This one post is no different. But you're right, I was feeling satisfaction. I was satisfied that Mord had been forced to make a choice. NB: responses in above spoilers ^^^Custos Luna is SCUM##Vote: Custos Luna
And now to respond to this:
On August 11 2012 09:07 Mordanis wrote: Waiting to see which bandwagon forms and jump in at around 3rd or 4th place? Why would you wait? Do you think that a 2 hour day cycle would benefit town? All waiting for the inevitable does is take away time from discussion, and make you look more scummy. If you're truly as transparent as you claim to be, you should be voting for your strongest of your 3 reads. Delaying only gives you the oppurtunity to jump on whatever bandwagon you please and takes time away. Which of prplhz, me, and Hiro are you most convinced is scum? Since you're pretty into commitment and transparency, I'm sure you'll be glad to tell us all.
What's interesting about this whole thing is that since DYH has created his post on me, all 3 of you have completely flown under the radar. And I really wish I did have multiple votes. The sad thing is that nobody is remotely questioning prplhz or HiroPro. Neither of them have been present, and prplhz even promised to get back to us on his findings.
##vote HiroPro
You need to stop lurking bro.
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On August 11 2012 16:10 Mordanis wrote: DYH: Your first post indicating that the people who switched their votes were suspicious was based on prplhz being scum. Your accusation of CL assumes that prplhz is town. So how are you leaning right now?
Right now CL is my best read. And if he is scum then chances are both yourself and prplhz are town. This isn't based on your play, but rather that I don't think that CL would have gone through that song and dance with a scumbuddy and he wouldn't have given a townie the option of killing his scumbuddy. Those are my assumptions right now, but it is pointless to work off them until I know I'm right about CL.
@scib - You seem overly ready to let CL off the hook for his play that is not only bad, but implies knowledge that only scum would have. You want to focus on the people who aren't writing anything. I want to focus on the person I've caught being scummy. So unless CL has a damn good reason for his actions, I'm sticking with my vote.
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EBWOP: ninjaed, reading CL's defense now.
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@CL: You still didn't give a good reason for why you let someone that you thought was scum decide your vote. That's the real point here. If you believed Mord was scum, wouldn't his vote almost assuredly go onto a townie at that point if he was the deciding vote?
The way I look at it is that you put yourself into a position that no matter what choice Mord made, nor what alignment that choice flipped, you could pressure him because of it. "Yea, ofc Mord picked the townie when I forced him to choose. He's scum." or "Yep, Mord was bussing because I was pressuring him to make a choice and he couldn't make the obvious wrong one. He's scum." Hell, you even said as much in your night post:
On August 10 2012 23:08 Custos Luna wrote: He could bus prplhz to look more townie, but since he was forced to make the decision, it was not truly his own, and he would still be scummy in my eyes. It would also leave his team with 2 members after D1, a situation no scum team wants to be in.
For his own safety, and the greatest benefit for his team, Mordanis was forced to vote Forumite. He ended up placing his vote because if there was a double lynch, it would have left his team at a disadvantage anyway.
You backed Mord up against a wall that you planned to use to get him lynched.
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CL: Why would you vote Hiro? Your case on him is based on prplhz being scum, so shouldn't you try to go for prplhz first, and if he does flip the way you expect him to go after Hiro at that point? Gahh you're not making sense...
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So the very first thing I notice about this defense is that it is ignoring the most damning part of my case. That CL allowed his biggest scum read to pick the person we lynched. His justification is that he forced Mord to actually commit to something. What I don't see is how gaining that bit of information on Mord was worth handing control over to someone you think is scum.
I can't say with absolute certainty about everyone else, but I know that I would absolutely lynch someone who caused the double lynch of 2 townies AND did it with a last minute vote switch. I would tunnel such a person into the ground. And maybe this is me having taken the temperature of the town incorrectly, but I don't think I would be the only one by a long shot. Oh, and then there is this: On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote: Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Which, on top of everything else, would easily be enough to bury Mord if he double lynched and missed scum.
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There is nothing else I can say. I am only going to end up repeating myself over and over. If you guys are going to lynch me, so be it. But it's going to be hilarious when I flip town, and you guys are going to be entirely fucked because of it.
But maybe you guys are right. Maybe it was poor decision making on my part. I never claimed to be perfect. That does not change the fact that you are all sheeping an easy bandwagon and completely ignoring all the right people.
On August 12 2012 02:26 Mordanis wrote: CL: Why would you vote Hiro? Your case on him is based on prplhz being scum, so shouldn't you try to go for prplhz first, and if he does flip the way you expect him to go after Hiro at that point? Gahh you're not making sense...
It is impossible for me to get information from people WHO DO NOT FUCKING TALK. It didn't matter which player my vote went on, I'm more than certain you had an argument for each choice I had.
The sun speaks in deceit, the moon lies in truths.
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On August 11 2012 21:16 sciberbia wrote: on Custos Luna That said, I'm not comfortable with the overwhelming anti-CL sentiment in the thread right now. There are several things in his filter that suggest to me that he is townie. But before I try to dissuade anyone from voting him today, I'd like to see his response to DYH's case.
I think it would be good if you brought them out.
I'm wavering on him because his end of N1 reads included HiroPro, whom I have also had suspicions on but not yet voiced. He did it before people started to openly express that suspicion, indicating that it was probably not a temperature gauge of picking who the town thinks is scummy and going after them.
@CL - Could you clarify what exactly you found suspicious in HiroPro's posting? I want to see if your train of thought is similar to mine or if you just took a stab in the dark and got lucky.
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@sloosh: His whole filter is filled with basically nothing. Asks questions, doesn't put forward much of his own opinions. Votes for prplhz, but it didn't take much convincing to get him onto Forumite once prplhz was set to be lynched.
Also:
On August 08 2012 05:26 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:15 Keirathi wrote:On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. Why would you want to guarantee one of our only 2 blue roles' death? Tracker might be "fairly useless", but its certainly more useful alive than dead. I'd rather have a confirmed town than a useless blue. And I'm not saying that they should claim now, just that saying that if someone is tracker they should strongly consider claiming at a crucial point (Mylo would be good) rather than waiting endlessly for a useful report that they probably won't get.
has no issues with a blue claiming. Even though he states he doesn't necessarily want it to be now, he puts the idea there.
In his EoN1 post:
On August 11 2012 00:04 HiroPro wrote: I have a RL issue to take care of, so this will be my last post.
I don't have the time to go through filters again but I'll summarize my thoughts.
sciberbia is town. His case on Forumite had a lot of effort and he's been consistently townie throughout this game.
Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case.
Luna is scum. No experienced player would make a post like the one he just did as town. He makes a big assumption in calling prplhz scum and then uses that to justify everything else. This is especially strange since all of yesterday he was saying prplhz's alignment is unclear.
Shiao and Keirathi should be looked at very closely. Shiao pushed Mordanis for reasons that had nothing to do with him being scum and he seems very nervous and reluctant to call people scum (look at his night post on the Forumite voters). Keirathi is not sharing his ideas really at all. Marv is not playing the way that I'm used to seeing him as town, dunno about him.
He says Mordanis is town, I'm scum, and makes the (very brief) case, and then Mordanis picks it right up once D2 starts.
But, again, it's hard to do anything in a town environment in which I'm being tunnelled and no one is talking.@sloosh: His whole filter is filled with basically nothing. Asks questions, doesn't put forward much of his own opinions. Votes for prplhz, but it didn't take much convincing to get him onto Forumite once prplhz was set to be lynched.
Also:
On August 08 2012 05:26 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:15 Keirathi wrote:On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. Why would you want to guarantee one of our only 2 blue roles' death? Tracker might be "fairly useless", but its certainly more useful alive than dead. I'd rather have a confirmed town than a useless blue. And I'm not saying that they should claim now, just that saying that if someone is tracker they should strongly consider claiming at a crucial point (Mylo would be good) rather than waiting endlessly for a useful report that they probably won't get.
has no issues with a blue claiming. Even though he states he doesn't necessarily want it to be now, he puts the idea there.
In his EoN1 post:
On August 11 2012 00:04 HiroPro wrote: I have a RL issue to take care of, so this will be my last post.
I don't have the time to go through filters again but I'll summarize my thoughts.
sciberbia is town. His case on Forumite had a lot of effort and he's been consistently townie throughout this game.
Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case.
Luna is scum. No experienced player would make a post like the one he just did as town. He makes a big assumption in calling prplhz scum and then uses that to justify everything else. This is especially strange since all of yesterday he was saying prplhz's alignment is unclear.
Shiao and Keirathi should be looked at very closely. Shiao pushed Mordanis for reasons that had nothing to do with him being scum and he seems very nervous and reluctant to call people scum (look at his night post on the Forumite voters). Keirathi is not sharing his ideas really at all. Marv is not playing the way that I'm used to seeing him as town, dunno about him.
He says Mordanis is town, that I'm scum, and makes the (very brief) case, and then Mordanis picks it right up once D2 starts.
But, again, it's hard to do anything in a town environment in which I'm being tunnelled and no one is talking.
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On August 12 2012 05:00 Custos Luna wrote:@sloosh: His whole filter is filled with basically nothing. Asks questions, doesn't put forward much of his own opinions. Votes for prplhz, but it didn't take much convincing to get him onto Forumite once prplhz was set to be lynched. Also: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:26 HiroPro wrote:On August 08 2012 05:15 Keirathi wrote:On August 08 2012 04:28 HiroPro wrote: Eh I'd only ever consider double lynching in sciberbia's 3/1 scenario (or a 2/1 if it ever comes up). Anywhere else I don't see the benefit.
Thoughts on using Tracker as an innocent child style role instead (if we have one)? It's fairly worthless in this setup since it can only track medic/RB and mafia will know whether or not a tracker is present. Why would you want to guarantee one of our only 2 blue roles' death? Tracker might be "fairly useless", but its certainly more useful alive than dead. I'd rather have a confirmed town than a useless blue. And I'm not saying that they should claim now, just that saying that if someone is tracker they should strongly consider claiming at a crucial point (Mylo would be good) rather than waiting endlessly for a useful report that they probably won't get. has no issues with a blue claiming. Even though he states he doesn't necessarily want it to be now, he puts the idea there. In his EoN1 post: Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 00:04 HiroPro wrote: I have a RL issue to take care of, so this will be my last post.
I don't have the time to go through filters again but I'll summarize my thoughts.
sciberbia is town. His case on Forumite had a lot of effort and he's been consistently townie throughout this game.
Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case.
Luna is scum. No experienced player would make a post like the one he just did as town. He makes a big assumption in calling prplhz scum and then uses that to justify everything else. This is especially strange since all of yesterday he was saying prplhz's alignment is unclear.
Shiao and Keirathi should be looked at very closely. Shiao pushed Mordanis for reasons that had nothing to do with him being scum and he seems very nervous and reluctant to call people scum (look at his night post on the Forumite voters). Keirathi is not sharing his ideas really at all. Marv is not playing the way that I'm used to seeing him as town, dunno about him. He says Mordanis is town, that I'm scum, and makes the (very brief) case, and then Mordanis picks it right up once D2 starts. But, again, it's hard to do anything in a town environment in which I'm being tunnelled and no one is talking.
Oops, poor formatting, idk how that happened. Fixed in quote
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On August 11 2012 19:29 risk.nuke wrote: DoYouHas pulling out some big guns. I like that. ##unvote: prplhz ##vote: Custos Luna Mind sharing your opinions?
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Yea that's the basic feel I got from him too ... but your quote on HiroPro brought up something.
To everyone who is dismissing Mordanis' suspicious play solely because his posting looks like that regardless of his alignment, how are we going to catch him as scum?
For instance,
On August 11 2012 00:04 HiroPro wrote: Mordanis is probably town. His early case on ShiaoPi was not good at all and his posting style annoys me but I feel that he's legitametly sharing his thoughts and honestly I have a hard time believing that any scum team would let Mordanis post that ShiaoPi case. I looked up Mordanis' scum play in Newbie Mafia XIV and in the scumQT he never ran anything by for double check analysis. It turns out I also happened to spec the game (guess I just forgot that I did), and from what I recall, he wasn't someone who had an inherently difficult to understand playstyle. This is a totally unwarranted excuse to call Mordanis and alleviate suspicions on him.
sciberbia could I get your thoughts on CL soon? I'm wondering if this is indeed a misdirection away from Mordanis onto an easy lynch or if CL was caught doing something scummy and is backpedalling.
To everyone who defended Mordanis on meta, could you please re-clarify how he is town?
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sorry I'm like 80% of the way through a post on CL, but I have to go. I'll finish it and post it when I get back in a couple hours.
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On August 12 2012 05:30 slOosh wrote: To everyone who is dismissing Mordanis' suspicious play solely because his posting looks like that regardless of his alignment, how are we going to catch him as scum?
...
To everyone who defended Mordanis on meta, could you please re-clarify how he is town? Every scum will make mistakes that you can pick up on. My whole point with defending his "meta" was that voting him for having fluffy posts is like voting Chezinu for trolling. He's going to do that as either alignment, so you're just as likely to hit a townie as you are scum. That was my main problem with the Mordanis case day 1.
I originally gave Mord some townie points for making a case on marv. I find it hard to believe that any relative newbie would intentionally pick a fight with marv on day 1 as scum. However, the fact that it was at the end of the day, and that it is possibility that the marv NK was already planned so he didn't have to be extremely threatened about a big vote swing onto him at the end of the day kind of drags him back down to null. Nothing he's said has stuck out as particularly scummy in and of itself though. There is very little chance that I would vote him today over CL/prpl/risk.
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On August 12 2012 03:49 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 21:16 sciberbia wrote: on Custos Luna That said, I'm not comfortable with the overwhelming anti-CL sentiment in the thread right now. There are several things in his filter that suggest to me that he is townie. But before I try to dissuade anyone from voting him today, I'd like to see his response to DYH's case.
I think it would be good if you brought them out.
Custos Luna
I'm willing to believe that his actions yesterday were a brain-fart and did not have malicious intent There are a few things in CL's filter that make me think that, for whatever reason, his brain is/was having issues with the logic surrounding yesterday's lynch, and therefore, his nonsensical action is not alignment-indicative.
On August 10 2012 23:08 Custos Luna wrote: He could bus prplhz to look more townie, but since he was forced to make the decision, it was not truly his own, and he would still be scummy in my eyes.
This is just really bad logic, and I'm surprised anyone would say this as either town or scum. If Mordanis had hammered a goblin yesterday, he should have recieved quite a bit of town cred. Obvious, right? But for some reason, CL seems to think that scum Mordanis might hammer on scum prplhz, when in reality this is extremely unlikely.
On August 11 2012 08:28 Custos Luna wrote: I told you to make a commitment, and you chose Forumite. Regardless of who you chose, I was going to go the same way as you.
Here, CL voluntarily draws attention to the fact that he let Mordanis lead the lynch yesterday. This is before DYH even made his case. I don't know why anyone (especially scum) would draw attention to the fact that they were blatantly sheeping another person's vote (unless in his head it was a sensible thing to do). This is a very important quote in my eyes.
Both of these quotes fit into my theory that CL is/was not looking at the situation logically, and that he thought his actions yesterday were benefitting town.
other things in his filter that make me think he is town corrects himself about being suspicious of me (not shiaopi)+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 00:26 Custos Luna wrote: Also: Last night when I said ShiaoPi was triggering my scumdar, I meant Scib. Combination of tired brain + new names for me. This was just preliminary thinking before sleep. All opinions subject to change.
This gives me a townie feel. Scum are just making reads up as they go along anyway, so I don't know why he'd bother to "correct" himself if he is scum. Nothing against shiaopi, but I think that I had more town cred and more thread control than shiaopi at the time, so I don't know why scum CL would go so out of his way to make me wary of them. has the correct read on Forumite+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 02:10 Custos Luna wrote: I'm not intentionally avoiding the topic of Forumite, I just don't have much to say about it at this point. I understand the case, and it does have some merit. However, I have been in Forumite's position before as town, so I'm still trying to decide if it was blind aggression to generate discussion (and as a result he has now been forced to backpedal), or just general scum activity. I will be rereading to try and get a better idea/feel.
In light of Forumite's flip, I think that this was the correct opinion to have on Forumite yesterday. That the case on him had merit, but that it didn't do enough to show he was scum as opposed to a townie caught in a lie. I give CL townie points for maintaining this view. His post on DYH gave me a townie feel+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 03:39 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 03:28 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 02:57 DoYouHas wrote: Currently I am basing my reads as much on intuition as on logic.
Although scrib makes good points against Forumite I don't find myself convinced. The motive I read behind Forumite's inconsistencies and subsequent posts is an attempt to get things going and then trying to both be transparent and move the thread forward. I completely agree that the way he has handled himself so far has been bad, but both town and scum can play badly. What matters is the motivation behind the actions. I feel like his motivation is more likely to be town than scum at the moment.
I agree with CL's opinion of Mord. I see Mord's focus on the VT claim that wasn't really a VT claim and make note of how that whole exchange gained the town exactly zilch and wasted our time. His first and last posts also bother me. His first post only stands out because of the end. He ends his post with a strong statement about how he is going to go scum hunting. What comes of that? 1 Question to CL. Then Mord completely sidetracks to the "VT claim" thing. Then the only other thing we get from him is the very lackluster response to Hiro about Forumite. It reads as very likely to be scum to me.
prplhz is looking worse and worse in my eyes because of his lack of quality early and his lurking now. I don't really have anything new to bring against him as he hasn't written anything new. But his silence is condemning, his apparent desire to fly under the radar while everyone is focusing on Shiao/Mord/Forum. He needs to be kept in the spotlight with all our other suspects and he has earned my vote.
##Vote: prplhz
This post of DoYouHas makes me suspicious of him. 1) Perhaps I am biased, but I don't like his reasons for soft defending Forumite. I don't know how announcing a read but keeping it to yourself is 'transparent' and 'trying to move the thread forward'. His stance on Forumite seems wishy/washy and I'm not a fan. 2) He says that Mordanis reads as 'very likely scum', but then he votes prplhz for lurking? wtf? If you think somebody is very likely scum, and they already have two votes on them, you as a townie should add your vote, not vote for a lurker to 'keep him in the spotlight'. FoS DoYouHas To be fair, that's pretty much what marvel did with Forumite/me. I'm not sure how suspicious marvel still finds me, but he has at least been very vocal and forthright with his thoughts as opposed to DoYouHas. I will add a point to your thoughts though. Day 1, it is extremely difficult to distinguish scummy play from poor/misinformed town play. In my eyes, it is not the blatantly bad people that need to be as heavily focused on - they will continue to be bad and always be under the microscope. It is the complacent, quiet, and appeasing ones that are worrisome for town because they can slide under the radar and stay there. In DYH's posts, he hasn't really added much at all. In his 3 content posts, he mainly focused on double-lynch discussion, prplhz's 2 useless posts, and really nothing else. There has been very little added from his posts. Nothing really new has been brought up. He's agreeing with arguments without building upon it in an attempt to keep blame off of him. I do agree with DYH in that prpl needs to show up, but DYH also needs to be watched closely. CL doesn't push for a lynch on DYH at any point in time, but points out that it is correct to keep an eye on him. This gives me a concerned townie feel rather than a malicious scum feel. Scum are more concerned in getting mislynches to go down than anything else, and this post didn't really contribute towards the D1 lynch. The feeling I get to this post is that he just wants us to keep an eye on DYH, which I can easily see townie motivation for, and I don't really see any scum motivation. his post calling out a 3-person scumteam+ Show Spoiler + OK. This is another pretty major point in my eyes.
I think it can be very tempting to try to call out the entire scumteam when you are a townie. Sometimes we just get convinced that we are onto something, and we are tempted to point it out to make it look like we are geniuses if and when we happen to be proved correct. So, I can see townie motivation for this post.
I think that this post would be a huge and obvious mistake for a scum CL to make. Think about it. This is a 10 person game, and he just called out 3 people as likely scum. That's not gaining him a lot of friends. I don't know of any player in this game that CL could have reasonably expected to be supportive of his 3-peson scumteam idea. It looks to me like he's trying to take on the world, and this seems much more like a townie move than a scum move.
In conclusion, I'm thinking town on CL, and would really not like to lynch him today.
@Mordanis, @Keirathi, @DoYouHas, @risk.nuke I'd like to know if anything I said will make you reconsider your vote on CL. I hope it does.
If we lynch one person today and are wrong, we will be put at 5 townies vs 3 scum, which is essentially triple MYLO (serious trouble). If we lynch two people today and are wrong on both, we will be put at 4 townies vs 3 scum, which is triple LYLO (not much worse). I think there is a lot to be said for a double-lynch today to maximize the chances of getting at least one scum killed and keeping us out of MYLO/LYLO tomorrow. Just wanted to get this out there before deadline gets near.
I'm still not sure who I'd most like to lynch. SlOosh is at least doing something today whereas risk.nuke/prplhz/HiroPro are still doing nothing. I'll think some more about these guys and make another post on one or more of them.
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On August 12 2012 05:30 slOosh wrote: sciberbia could I get your thoughts on CL soon? I'm wondering if this is indeed a misdirection away from Mordanis onto an easy lynch or if CL was caught doing something scummy and is backpedalling.
To everyone who defended Mordanis on meta, could you please re-clarify how he is town? @slOosh I just gave my thoughts on CL, and I think now would be a good time for you to clearly state your opinion of him.
Also, like Keirathi said, Mordanis's wordiness is a nulltell due to his meta. Nobody it is saying it is a towntell. I've been between neutral and thinking town on him throughout the game, but for reasons that have nothing to do with meta.
Finally, I think you should be wary of thinking that Mordanis and CL have opposite alignments. I'm really unconvinced that either of them is mafia.
On August 12 2012 06:10 Keirathi wrote: (regarding Mordanis) There is very little chance that I would vote him today over CL/prpl/risk. @Keirathi Is there any reason you didn't include HiroPro on this list, or are you still suspicious of HiroPro? I ask because I'm very interested in a possible HiroPro lynch today.
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Scib, you haven't convinced me enough to retract my vote. But you have got me listening. Your point about the connection case in particular is a good one. A few of your other points I think are up to interpretation.
This may not have been explicit in your defense, but it is there, and I came to agree. If I'm going to push CL all the way to the deadline, I need to make a case using his whole filter, not just one terrible misstep.
As for a double lynch today, I'm against it. I agree that it would increase our chances of hitting scum. I just don't see us agreeing on 2 candidates and getting the votes organized in time. Double lynch is a great tool, but we are playing with fire. If we don't have a good handle on the votes a good while before the deadline it is just too big a risk.
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P.S. MYLO and LYLO are the same thing in this setup. We can't vote for no lynches, and going for a double lynch when scum have 3/8 or 3/7 of a vote is stupid.
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On August 12 2012 08:18 sciberbia wrote: @Keirathi Is there any reason you didn't include HiroPro on this list, or are you still suspicious of HiroPro? I ask because I'm very interested in a possible HiroPro lynch today. Mostly because in my thorough read-through of filters during the night phase, I started thinking that there's a much higher chance of Hiro being scum if prplhz is. If prplhz is scum, then the few actual things that Hiro did on d1 point towards him being scum as well. But why would scum Hiro feel the need to change his vote from prplhz to Forumite when town was basically evenly split?
Not that its impossible for Hiro to be scum without prpl, but it makes much more sense to me to lynch prplhz first.
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I agree with you DYH that double lynch right now is too risky. At least until we're hit one scum, double lynch should stay on the back burner imo.
I'm really wondering if prpl or hiro are ever going to do anything at all. Risk.nuke also very quiet.
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On August 12 2012 08:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 08:18 sciberbia wrote: @Keirathi Is there any reason you didn't include HiroPro on this list, or are you still suspicious of HiroPro? I ask because I'm very interested in a possible HiroPro lynch today. Mostly because in my thorough read-through of filters during the night phase, I started thinking that there's a much higher chance of Hiro being scum if prplhz is. If prplhz is scum, then the few actual things that Hiro did on d1 point towards him being scum as well. But why would scum Hiro feel the need to change his vote from prplhz to Forumite when town was basically evenly split? Not that its impossible for Hiro to be scum without prpl, but it makes much more sense to me to lynch prplhz first. @Custos What do you think about what Keirathi just said? I've been thinking about this myself and I think it's likely that HiroPro is only scum if prplhz is as well.
If prplhz is town why would scum HiroPro make a dubious voteswitch just to lynch one townie over another townie? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
If prplhz is scum Obviously, the vote switch is very sketchy if prplhz is scum.
Do you think this reasoning is valid? Do you think it therefore makes sense to lynch prplhz before HiroPro?
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and @keirathi If it was all up to you, who would we lynch today? Custos/prphlz/risk.nuke? Did anything I say about CL make you want to reconsider your vote on him?
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On August 12 2012 08:59 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 08:54 Keirathi wrote:On August 12 2012 08:18 sciberbia wrote: @Keirathi Is there any reason you didn't include HiroPro on this list, or are you still suspicious of HiroPro? I ask because I'm very interested in a possible HiroPro lynch today. Mostly because in my thorough read-through of filters during the night phase, I started thinking that there's a much higher chance of Hiro being scum if prplhz is. If prplhz is scum, then the few actual things that Hiro did on d1 point towards him being scum as well. But why would scum Hiro feel the need to change his vote from prplhz to Forumite when town was basically evenly split? Not that its impossible for Hiro to be scum without prpl, but it makes much more sense to me to lynch prplhz first. @Custos What do you think about what Keirathi just said? I've been thinking about this myself and I think it's likely that HiroPro is only scum if prplhz is as well. If prplhz is townwhy would scum HiroPro make a dubious voteswitch just to lynch one townie over another townie? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If prplhz is scumObviously, the vote switch is very sketchy if prplhz is scum. Do you think this reasoning is valid? Do you think it therefore makes sense to lynch prplhz before HiroPro?
I think the logic is sound, and it's pretty aligned with my thinking, but apparently my logic is flawed this game. My vote on Hiro was partially for pressure, but as I was a huge focus at the time (and I'm sure still am), I'm sure he felt no risk from my vote.
Seeing as my connection case is on the basis of prplhz being scum, and he seems very keen to let me sit under the crosshairs and not scumhunt, I'm switching my vote to him. If people are smart, they will join me, or at least find another, more likely scum member.
##unvote HiroPro ##vote prplhz
I will be going out shortly, but I'll be on my phone so I can still follow along and make some posts.
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@Scib: I think the ideal lynch target today is prplhz. As much as I was completely wtf boggled at CL, you were right, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for him as scum to call that kind of attention to himself.
I disagree with some of your other points in your defense of him (ie the "correct read on forumite" - of course scum would know he was town and could soft defend him as well...and the DYH case is a complete null-tell...scum make cases that they don't push quite frequently in my experience), but overall I think I feel less confident in a lynch on Cl than I do prplhz.
##Unvote ##Vote: prplhz
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That being said, I think risk.nuke has a great chance of flipping scum as well, but I don't think his lynch gives us as much information as a prplhz one.
I would say that I feel almost equally confident that either (or both) will flip scum, but I would lynch prpl because his flip gives information that risk's doesn't.
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On August 12 2012 09:17 Keirathi wrote: @Scib: I think the ideal lynch target today is prplhz. As much as I was completely wtf boggled at CL, you were right, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for him as scum to call that kind of attention to himself.
I disagree with some of your other points in your defense of him (ie the "correct read on forumite" - of course scum would know he was town and could soft defend him as well...and the DYH case is a complete null-tell...scum make cases that they don't push quite frequently in my experience), but overall I think I feel less confident in a lynch on Cl than I do prplhz.
##Unvote ##Vote: prplhz
Excellent! OK let's just forgot about my points with the DYH case and Forumite read... nobody seems to like those and I admit they are minor points at best. I'm glad you agree with my more important points.
Anyway, I'm still quite suspicious of HiroPro/slOosh/prplhz/risk.nuke. It's really a question of which is the worst: HiroPro: lurks. states RL issue. lurks some more slOosh: lurks. gives reason for lurking. is in thread but not much presence. fairly under the radar. prplhz: lurks. says he will stop lurking. proceeds to lurk. risk.nuke: clearly doesn't give a shit. And doesn't give a shit that everyone knows he doesn't give a shit
From most suspicious to least suspicious, I think it is HiroPro & prplhz, followed by risk.nuke, followed by slOosh, based on what little reads I can make from their filters.
So I am quite happy with a prplhz lynch today. As I said, I think it makes sense to lynch him before HiroPro. I hope enough people (looking at Mordanis, slOosh, DYH) will reconsider on CL such that we can lynch prplhz instead.
My main issues with prplhz are as follows: -- with the exception of Mad Men, he does clearly seem to care more as town than as scum -- he only became active yesterday when under threat of lynch -- even in his all activity, all he really did was defend himself and insist on the Forumite counterwagon -- he promised to contribute today, but still hasn't done anything -- I'm quite suspicious of HiroPro as well, and I think HiroPro is only likely to be scum if prplhz is as well
##Vote prplhz
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@Shiaopi What the hell is going on with you? After an active D1, you haven't posted in like 48 hours. Care to comment on either the CL or the prplhz wagons?
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Town has been butchered by lack of activity this game.
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current votecount for reference
Custos Luna(3): Mordanis, DYH, risk.nuke prplhz(3): CL, Keirathi, sciberbia
not voted: HiroPro, Shiaopi, prplhz, slOosh
Every vote really matters here. I urge everyone to strongly consider voting prplhz over CL. I don't think any other lynch is really on the table at this point.
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On August 12 2012 10:04 Keirathi wrote: Vote count? lol that was quite the ninja
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Unfortunately I can only post the flip later as I'm not on my laptop
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On August 12 2012 11:00 Bluelightz wrote: Unfortunately I can only post the flip later as I'm not on my laptop You still have 13 hours!
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On August 12 2012 11:02 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 11:00 Bluelightz wrote: Unfortunately I can only post the flip later as I'm not on my laptop You still have 13 hours! PM me both prplhz's and CL's roles. Then I will make the deadline post for you depending on who gets lynched. I'll even write the flavor for you :p
In all seriousness, are you saying the flip will be more than 13 hours from now? Do you know approximately when it will be?
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False alarm.... Oops
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On August 12 2012 12:02 Bluelightz wrote: Deadline done. Prplhz and CL lynched flip a bit later,
Wait wtf. BLUELIGHTZ THE DEADLINE IS NOT FOR 12 MORE HOURS. DON'T FLIP PEOPLE YET
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BlueLightz! Don't flip! Deadline not over yet!!
thought i should make this more clear..
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UMM...... Okay then continue D:, imma check later on my laptop then ;3
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OH LOL I THOUGHT THE DEADLINE WAS NOW OOPS
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Blue, would you mind updating the OP?
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On August 12 2012 08:54 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 08:18 sciberbia wrote: @Keirathi Is there any reason you didn't include HiroPro on this list, or are you still suspicious of HiroPro? I ask because I'm very interested in a possible HiroPro lynch today. Mostly because in my thorough read-through of filters during the night phase, I started thinking that there's a much higher chance of Hiro being scum if prplhz is. If prplhz is scum, then the few actual things that Hiro did on d1 point towards him being scum as well. But why would scum Hiro feel the need to change his vote from prplhz to Forumite when town was basically evenly split? Not that its impossible for Hiro to be scum without prpl, but it makes much more sense to me to lynch prplhz first. I have a huge problem with this - it's essentially lynching for information. We either lynch HiroPro because he looks scummy regardless of prplhz or we lynch prplhz because he looks scummy regardless of HiroPro. Suggesting a pair of lynches like that in a specific order is extremely dangerous.
On August 12 2012 08:18 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 05:30 slOosh wrote: sciberbia could I get your thoughts on CL soon? I'm wondering if this is indeed a misdirection away from Mordanis onto an easy lynch or if CL was caught doing something scummy and is backpedalling.
To everyone who defended Mordanis on meta, could you please re-clarify how he is town? @slOoshI just gave my thoughts on CL, and I think now would be a good time for you to clearly state your opinion of him. I've looked over your post and reread filters and what is still left unaddressed with CL is this - he has dropped his HiroPro read in favor of the prplhz lynch, which was one of the big town cards in my mind. Words are easy - votes and lynches are where you put your money where your mouth is. He hasn't done this.
I find HiroPro more scummier than CL and would vote him but I do not wish to cause an accidental double lynch. I'll be on for another hour or two if people are willing to swap from CL to HiroPro. If people are opposed or we don't have enough time I'm fine with lurker lynching prplhz.
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@DYH Have you thought any more about prplhz and CL? How likely do you think each of them is to be scum? Will you be leaving your vote on CL or are you open to switching?
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On August 11 2012 01:01 sciberbia wrote: Anyway, I didn't get to as much filter reading last night as I would have liked, and I really don't know who I'd most like to lynch today. I agree that HiroPro's vote switch was suspicious, but it probably means nothing is prplhz is town, and possibly means everything if prplhz is scum, so I'm not sure what to make of the situation, as I am pretty null on prplhz right now.
On August 12 2012 08:59 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 08:54 Keirathi wrote:On August 12 2012 08:18 sciberbia wrote: @Keirathi Is there any reason you didn't include HiroPro on this list, or are you still suspicious of HiroPro? I ask because I'm very interested in a possible HiroPro lynch today. Mostly because in my thorough read-through of filters during the night phase, I started thinking that there's a much higher chance of Hiro being scum if prplhz is. If prplhz is scum, then the few actual things that Hiro did on d1 point towards him being scum as well. But why would scum Hiro feel the need to change his vote from prplhz to Forumite when town was basically evenly split? Not that its impossible for Hiro to be scum without prpl, but it makes much more sense to me to lynch prplhz first. If prplhz is townwhy would scum HiroPro make a dubious voteswitch just to lynch one townie over another townie? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If prplhz is scumObviously, the vote switch is very sketchy if prplhz is scum. Do you think this reasoning is valid? Do you think it therefore makes sense to lynch prplhz before HiroPro? On August 12 2012 09:39 sciberbia wrote: -- I'm quite suspicious of HiroPro as well, and I think HiroPro is only likely to be scum if prplhz is as well
Wait, what!?
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Ah nevermind I'm tired and not as focused as I usually am.
I think HiroPro is suspicious for reasons other than his voteswitch was why the last statement looked so off.
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Mind sharing your other reasons?
I'm writing up my reply to your objection now.
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@slOosh This is a tricky situation, but I think prplhz is the smartest lynch.
I've changed my mind slightly about the first quote. I think that if prplhz is town, HiroPro is likely town as well, since as I explain in the second quote, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for scum HiroPro to make a dubious vote switch from one townie to another.
Of course, if prplhz is scum, HiroPro's vote switch looks very suspicious, and HiroPro is likely scum as well.
What I'm saying in the third quote is that I find it unlikely that HiroPro is scum and prplhz is town. This is basically a repeat of what I've said above.
Since I think the least likely scenario is that HiroPro is scum and prplhz is town, I'm looking at these three scenarios: HiroPro town. prplhz town. HiroPro town. prplhz scum. HiroPro scum. prplhz scum
So the most likely way I can see for HiroPro to be scum is if prplhz is also scum. Additionally, I think it's possible that prplhz is scum but HiroPro is town (although at this point I think I'd be very willing to lynch HiroPro tomorrow if prplhz flips scum). Therefore, to maximize our chance of hitting scum today, we should lynch prplhz.
Does that make sense to you or do you see flaws in my logic?
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Nevermind, ninja'd by scib.
I believe prplhz has a good chance of flipping scum, and that has nothing to do with HiroPro.
However, if I'm right and he does flip scum, then HiroPro jumps up pretty far on my scumdar.
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@slOosh Yes I'd be interested to hear your other reasons on HiroPro.
My only real beef with him apart from his vote switch and his lurking is how he goes from saying nothing at all about CL from confidently asserting that CL is scum based on 1 post. And he appeals to 'vet knowledge' in his case against CL, which I think is scummy.
I think it only makes any sense to lynch HiroPro today if you think it is quite possible that HiroPro is scum but that prplhz is town. Do you think this is likely? Do you really see HiroPro making that vote switch in this scenario?
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On August 12 2012 13:12 sciberbia wrote: @slOosh Yes I'd be interested to hear your other reasons on HiroPro.
My only real beef with him apart from his vote switch and his lurking is how he goes from saying nothing at all about CL from confidently asserting that CL is scum based on 1 post. And he appeals to 'vet knowledge' in his case against CL, which I think is scummy.
I think it only makes any sense to lynch HiroPro today if you think it is quite possible that HiroPro is scum but that prplhz is town. Do you think this is likely? Do you really see HiroPro making that vote switch in this scenario? I think it was TL Mafia LIV where town was split between two mislynches, and Risen (scum) switched from one townie to another, much similar to the situation we have here. What ended up happening was that everyone started thinking like you are right now, saying "no way scum would bother doing that", and for that no one suspected him. I'm not saying that HiroPro is scum and prplhz is town - please don't insinuate that I am. I'm saying the possibility is there and pidgeon-holing our mentality like that can really backfire.
My reasons on HiroPro is general feel of his tone and approach. I played with him in PYP: Poison where I he was much more straight forward and clear, and on several occasions this game I find him to do the opposite. So a combination of meta and what I would call indecisiveness (not taking hard stances but willing to cast suspicions no problem).
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In any case it's getting late, so here's probably my last post before deadline.
##Vote: prplhz
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@slOosh Point taken. We shouldn't completely rule out the possibility that HiroPro is scum and prplhz is town. Still, I think the overall chance that prplhz is scum is marginally greater than the overall chance that HiroPro is scum, so I'm staying on prplhz.
@DYH I'm still interested to hear what's going through your mind right now.
I'll be playing some starcraft for the next hour or several.
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On August 12 2012 12:47 sciberbia wrote: @DYH Have you thought any more about prplhz and CL? How likely do you think each of them is to be scum? Will you be leaving your vote on CL or are you open to switching?
Yes, I am willing to switch to prplhz. I did not find as much supporting evidence in CL's filter as I was hoping to. HOWEVER, right now, I am demanding to know who CL actually is. I am seriously frustrated knowing that he is a vet but I can't look into his past games. Is it jcarlsoniv? is that what that whole thing that got edited out was about?
Prplhz really hasn't done anything to ease my suspicions of him from day1, I just loathe backing off my own case in favor of someone else wagon. I still lean slightly scum on CL, but that is the beauty of a prplhz lynch. If prplhz flips town then I'll be pretty confident I'm right about CL, if he flips scum then we get even more information because of how much he was discussed day1 (and I'll know scib is probably right about CL's actions). Win-win for me. And don't yell at me for lynching for information slOosh. prplhz is plenty scummy in his own right. It is just an added benefit that I get extra information from a prplhz flip.
##Unvote ##Vote: prplhz
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On August 12 2012 13:59 DoYouHas wrote: HOWEVER, right now, I am demanding to know who CL actually is. I am seriously frustrated knowing that he is a vet but I can't look into his past games. Is it jcarlsoniv? is that what that whole thing that got edited out was about?
Lol. Isn't that the whole point of playing on a smurf account to begin with? Either to 1) escape your meta so you can try different things, or 2) not have people biased against you just because of who you are.
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On August 12 2012 14:09 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 13:59 DoYouHas wrote: HOWEVER, right now, I am demanding to know who CL actually is. I am seriously frustrated knowing that he is a vet but I can't look into his past games. Is it jcarlsoniv? is that what that whole thing that got edited out was about?
Lol. Isn't that the whole point of playing on a smurf account to begin with? Either to 1) escape your meta so you can try different things, or 2) not have people biased against you just because of who you are.
That is the price you pay for being a vet, you gain skill and experience but you also build a meta. And it isn't like CL is playing some off the wall style or anything, why be afraid of his meta?
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The true reason I'm smurfing is that it has been a long time since I've played, and I wished to walk in with a clean slate, both from your PoV and mine.
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Could someone explain to me why prplhz is so scummy? I've looked through Custodis filter and seen a lot less scumminess than I'd have hoped for. But I don't see to much at all from prplhz. His lurkiness except for when he's fighting for his life doesn't seem all that scummy to me because that was how I played in my last game. D1+D3 I was pretty active, but I spent most of my free time D2 playing DeusEx. The days I was under heavy suspicion: D1+D3. I'm not saying this makes prplhz town, I just think that lynching based on someone's only activity being defensive isn't such a great idea.
Also, somehow Shiao has somehow escaped being labeled a lurker despite not having posted at all this cycle.
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@Mordanis I wouldn't describe prplhz as "so scummy". It's not like there is enough in his filter to even get a good scumread off of. It's just that none of the active players look scummy to me right now, so I think we should lynch into the lurkers. prplhz has done literally nothing this game to make me think he is town. If you suggest another player that you find scummy, I'd be happy to evaluate your case (although I think it's a bit late for a new candidate today).
reasons prplhz is my preferred lynch over other lurkers
On August 12 2012 09:39 sciberbia wrote: My main issues with prplhz are as follows: -- with the exception of Mad Men, he does clearly seem to care more as town than as scum -- he only became active yesterday when under threat of lynch -- even in his all activity, all he really did was defend himself and insist on the Forumite counterwagon -- he promised to contribute today, but still hasn't done anything -- I'm quite suspicious of HiroPro as well, and I think HiroPro is only likely to be scum if prplhz is as well
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As I said earlier, I don't really trust the timing of his activity to be a strong indicator of alignment. So at that point, I see Shiao, Risk, prplhz, and Hiro with basically the same lack of activity, and a growing bandwagon on prpl.
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@Mordanis I think that the extent to which prplhz has not cared about this game is suspicious in light of his meta. I looked at the two games Hiro referenced, in addition to a couple of games where prplhz was town, and he looked clearly more invested in the games where he was town.
Shiao at least has a lot of activity yesterday that we can judge him for. We've discussed Hiro vs prplhz a lot. risk.nuke I haven't looked at all that closely, but there are 1 or 2 things in his filter that give me a townie feel, so I find him slightly less suspicious than Hiro/prplhz.
You seem to be expressing discontent with a lynch on prplhz, but you also do not seem very confident that CL is scum, and you are not suggesting another candidate. Who would you most like to lynch right now?
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Frankly I don't know. On the one hand you have CL who made a large mistake in sheeping me, but it isn't alignment-indicative. It's pretty shitty play regardless. On the other hand, you have prpl who has been inactive save for defense. Really, at this point they both seem like bad cases. I really need to read through for a while before I can return with my thoughts. I will say however that all things being equal I would favor the lurker-lynch on the grounds that it might light a fire under the remaining lurkers' asses and get them posting.
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OK I'm going to bed. I'll be up right before the deadline. Good night.
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What it comes down to is whether to lynch CL for his mistakes. IMO "scumslips" are useful tools to enhance your scumhunting, not auto-lynch heuristics. The idea is that scum are more likely than town to "slip", so you look at players who "slip" to confirm their scumminess or store the information away for later. CL has in my mind 2 slips/mistakes. His "IFoundAllTheScumteam" post and his sheeping my vote. While I was at work, during the slower times I was trying to figure out whether CL's play was scummy or rusty. I couldn't decide. After reading through his filter, I have come to believe that he is not scum. CL is obviously a bit rusty, and so if he were scum I'd expect to be able to find lots of little scum-tells along with the major mistakes. I just didn't find any, and not for lack of effort. In short, it simply doesn't make any sense to me to assume that someone is good enough to have a filter basically free from little scum-tells but bad enough to make massive mistakes unless there isn't anything for that player to hide.
It would be completely worthless to switch my vote to anyone other than prpl at this point, but I still feel that I need to comment on him. I feel it is highly likely at least one of the scum are lurking pretty hard, simply because the setup strongly encourages it. 3 mislynches plus 3 night kills yields victory to the scum. While lurkers by their nature don't really contribute, prpl really hasn't done anything at all the entire game. He voted for his counter-wagon, defended himself, and added more to the counterwagon. Take those away and he has zero content. He obviously cares at least a little to save his own ass but doesn't seem to give a shit about finding scum or even contributing to discussion in any way. I do find that scummy.
## Unvote ## Vote prplhz
Luna diem integram novumque tibi donaverit. Aut nox donaverit. Teneas gratior et leta gobbae. The moon has given you a new and fresh day. Or she has given you a night.You may choose whichever pleases you more and you must kill scum.
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I'm sorry. I started doing some heavy analysing last night with the purpose of finnishing it before the deadline. But unfortunatly I got incredibly bussy trying to secure accommodations for when I start the uni in 2 weeks. There will very likely be something big from me today. Sadly it will not be before the deadline since I'm in step 1/3 and only about 1/3 done with step 1.
Posting to let you know what I'm doing and to let you know I am here.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Just got internet again and won't be alble to stick around soon. Wll be skimming through now to make a decision for my vote
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
First off I am really really sorry for not being able to be active the last couple of days. I expected to have internet access in the hostel I was staying in, obviously my belief was wrong and so I had been stuck with it until I found time/place to get access. Even right now I am on limited time, so I apologize for being brief, I`ll make up for it at night after the deadline when I am back home with internet.
After I read through, I have to say it was surprising how fast the bandwagon on cl gathered steam, considering how townie like he played (at least imo). While DYH had a good argument with CL giving his highest scumread the choice of lynch, it kind of was outweighed by double-lynch shenanigans and the general pro town behaviour he shows in his posts.
Looking through the thread it gets kind of obvious that we have risk.nuke and prhplz not caring at all this game. While I find both suspicious, I would be more happy with a risk.nuke lynch but seeing that as probably not possible in the hour left til deadline, and me being unable to react in time since I won't be around for much longer, I'll put my vote on prhplz
##Vote: prphlz
will post more and answer any questions directed at me as soon as I am back home. sorry again for the inactivity.
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yeah, prplhz lynched. Flavor coming....
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Night 2
It was too great a day, too great, a goblin had been found in the bath's! toiling unnecessarily with all the uknown Dwarven stuffs, it was prplhz.
prplhz was to suffer the worst punishment of all, the guilotine......
*Slash!* and a lot of goblin blood later it was apparent that a goblin had died, the fort rejoiced but a random dwarf fisherman got killed by a stray bolt as a reminder that they were still under siege.
prplhz the Goblin Invader has been lynched, you have 24 hours to send me and Blazinghand your night actions for those who have any.
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Fuck yea. Gg prplhz. Thank god.
On phone now. Busy for next 12 hours or so
Nice lynch guys
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So, how's it goin' HiroPro?
gg prplhz
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On August 13 2012 00:35 Custos Luna wrote: So, how's it goin' HiroPro?
gg prplhz
HiroPro is not available, due to reasons I will not make public, I will not modkill him till the Night 3 post(which is the limit for replacements), if no replacements become available.
oops
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It's really sad that you can get prplhz this easily on meta. Because I generally don't like using meta when I scumhunt.
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On August 13 2012 00:52 risk.nuke wrote: It's really sad that you can get prplhz this easily on meta. Because I generally don't like using meta when I scumhunt. Wait, you've scumhunted this game?
Where!?
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Sweet lynch! I've gotta run, but this was a great start to my day.
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Try that part of my filter where I said prplhz doesn't play like this as town. It's very short very direct and very little place for misinterpretation.
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Oh I see. You used something other people already said. Sorry, let me rephrase: Wait, you've done something useful this game? Where!?
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Keirathi fuck of or accuse me of something. If you think I've been unhelpfull in the bringing of prplhz down. + Show Spoiler + I rarely play mafia for glory or to boost my ego as the worlds greatest detective. I play this in my own tempo with my own notes because I enjoy it.
Free advice: If you got time to sit here and whine you got time to analyse the voteswitch.
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I already did accuse you. Multiple times.
You've done nothing this game. If you're town then you're a detriment to our team. But I don't think you are town.
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EBWOP: For reference
On August 11 2012 00:00 Keirathi wrote: risk.nuke 1)Did nothing on day 1 except talk about policy and setup until his vote on prplhz. 2)He didn't have a single mention of any scumhunting in his filter besides 2 one-liners about prplhz: calling him out for lurking, and voting him. 3)Made no mention whatsoever of the Forumite or Mordanis cases, but after the night flip he says "Forumite. Don't beat yourself up because some scrubs can't tell cowboy play from scum play. Sit your pretty self down and watch me catch the gobbo bastards.". Why weren't you there defending him pre-flip if you were so sure he was a "cowbow"? 4) Just being off the Forumite vote makes me more weary of him.
On August 12 2012 09:19 Keirathi wrote: That being said, I think risk.nuke has a great chance of flipping scum as well, but I don't think his lynch gives us as much information as a prplhz one.
I would say that I feel almost equally confident that either (or both) will flip scum, but I would lynch prpl because his flip gives information that risk's doesn't.
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Well we're each entitled to our own opinions. Even the dumb ones.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
First off yay for red. Gg prphlz! 2nd I just drove 7 hours to get home late at night. Gonna pass out now, so my bigger post will be postponed
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Huh ... looks like scum team is suffering from inactivity just as much as town is. Anyways, 2 for 2 tomorrow with HiroPro?
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Also, was no one roleblocked yesterday?
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Hiro will be my vote tomorrow at this point.
And I wasn't RB'd yesterday.
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No RB here. As of now, yes, HiroPro is top on my list. Although, if he's getting modkilled, we may not need to waste the vote...
Really depends on the next ~30hrs if he ever returns.
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Such a weird cycle... At least now we have a scum flipped so there should be some new analysis possible, but the lack of activity sort of reduces the amount of analysis. Ah well, see you all in the morning ^^
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I'm going to be doing a post before the nightflip. It's center will be analysing the voteswitch and the people/posts of interest there. I've only skimmed over it but I'm pretty sure Custos Luna is scum and should die tomorrow. I'll go over it again and try to secure my stance both for myself and for you. I will also go into a few people and why they are likely town if I got time.
This is not my big shit which is currently put on ice because I'm starting to feel like it's overkill in this game so I couldn't be motivated to work with it as it was quite time consuming.
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Oh my, I must say, I'm waiting excitedly on the edge of my seat. Please don't spare any effort risk.nuke, I'd be offended if you half-assed your accusation of me.
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Day 3
Truly! this has been fun! a goblin has been killed! huzzzah I say huzzah!
Unfortunately sciberbia got too drunk at the party and was stabbed at the dagger a inch before entering the most secure room in the fort!
It's now Day 3, vote before the deadline, if no replacements make themselves available HiroPro will have to be modkilled
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Analysis of the day 1 lynch & the voteswitch So this is basicly two different stories but I'd like to start with the voteswitch because that's what I said I would do and because that's what I feel like doing.
I'd like to direct everyone here clicky We're about to lynch a scum, but what happens? These are some of my points of interests. sciberia reinfoces his case on Forumite Mordanis throws down a very bad case on a new candidate. HiroPro voteswitches prplhz shows up to defend himself Shiaopi voteswitches prplhz attacks Forumite *Custos Lunas morning evalutation Votecount 5-5, 1-1 (back to this later) And well just read everything after this because it would be easier to say which posts between this and the flip not to bother reading.
I'm going to talk about Custos Luna and his actions during the voteswitch now. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 22:10 Custos Luna wrote: Ok, my morning evaluation:
prplhz: I do not feel that the prplhz wagon has that much merit. He had a few poor posts early, but in the whole, he has responded fairly well to the case against him. He has defended himself logically and presented a counter argument against Forumite.
In my experience, the D1 lurker lynch is almost always inaccurate. The prplhz wagon started because it was easy. The easy way isn't always the right way. I'm glad people are starting to reconsider the vote on prpl for this reason. That's not to say I think he's town, I just think he is less likely to be scum than others at this point.
Forumite: I can see a scenario with Forumite flipping scum. He has been flip floppy all game, and people have pointed out his contradictions. However, he's still not the scummiest in my eyes.
Mordanis: Am I really the only one who sees the COMPLETELY blatant lack of commitment from Mord all game?
-First Half D1: Very fluffy posts with the promise to start scumhunting.
-Second Half D1: Still more fluff. Makes a long post and FoSs shipoopi (still no commitment). He does not cast a vote until very late D1 (sleepy time in my time zone). His vote is on marvel. I would normally have no issue with this if it were at a reasonable time. However, this is crunch time. A lynch on marvel isn't on the table at this point. He makes a case and commitment on something that more than likely will not happen.
Mord's posts are long and filled with nothing. He talks a lot but doesn't say anything. His posts are difficult to follow, and a lack of transparency hurts town. He avoids commitment to a case as much as he can.
I'm sticking with my gut on this one. Mordanis is scum First he tries to defend prplhz using logical reasoning. That prplhz has defended himself logicly and that he have presented a counterargument against forumite. The first one of these two are false. prplhz did not defend himself logicly. You can find the post above. Prplhz [b]questions our votes. He does not defend himself and yes there is a difference. Defending yourself is when you argument against your opponants reasoning. Example: Saying - I'm not scum because of reason X or - You are misunderstanding me, what I really ment is sentence Yprplhz goes through a quick [quote]&[comment] spree where he questions our votes but still manages to miss the point entirely on as good as all of them. We're accusing him for beeing scum because of his scum meta and he is trying to twist the light into us accusing him for beeing lurky and trying to play the vicitim of a bandwagon. These [quote]&[comment] roundups are very easy to make, look very good. But it's not actually defense if you twist the voters reasoning and don't argue against it. I feel Custos Luna beeing a claimed Vet should have seen this. Instead CL makes it sound as prplhz actually have defended himself and since he have defended himself logically he gets some townpoints. All a fake mask hidden beneth well chosen typing. (( I have some issues with the coding not getting it work properly, bare with it.))
As for the counterargument. I suggest you look through prplhz filter yourselves. This is what I think it looks like. Cheap shots. Once more it's just some nice words covering up the truth. Custos Luna is trying to persuade people to get off prplhz and he is using a decitfull way to do it because typing Prplhz counterargumented and defended himself sounds better then Prplzh twisted the light of his accusers accusations and took some cheap shots at the only other person that might get lynched instead of him in a chance to make himself look better by pushing someone else down. It makes all the difference when someone says He did this when he actually did something else even if they look simmilar on a quick look because it twists an event and changes the situation. It's very scummy behavior. I'll continue here because I don't like to make to long spoilers and to make sure you read everything.
Mordanis: Why does he bring up Mordanis. What Custos Luna says about Mordanis is true. But why does he bring it up now? I can't see a town-agenda in bringing up another suspect just before the lynch. Especially when he's been treading so carefully and beeing OH SO CAREFULL and explained to us how doubtfull he feels about the lynch candidates. So now he brings up a new candidate who'll have absolutely zero chance of beeing lynched. (And if he actually was lynched it would had been even worse because voteswitches to new targets are almost always a bad idea for town) Custos Luna knows this. However from a scum perspective it makes perfect sense because in a sitaution where Mord is town and Luna scum bringing Mord up both distracts the thread and begins to shift attention to Mord where he begins to get set up for a mislynch because scum doesn't care when they bring up their mis-lynch candidates. They just want to put them under the floodlight and hide in the shadows themselves.
because of coding issues, where I have absolutely no idea where the fault is I'll end this post soon since I can't use any spoilers/quotes/bold/underlined without fucking shit up.
But I need to say atleast one more thing about Luna first. The most significant part which is easiest revieved yourselves. Go to Custos Lunas filter or just read the posts in pages during the voteswitch. Look how CAREFULL Custos Luna is. He is so afraid of putting down an opinion and constantly reminding us how insecure he feels and how he doubts this-and-that and is worried this-is-so. He is so defensive for himself and already before Forumite has been lynched he sets up his defense for the mislynch (which he continues to play out in his post after the flip)
Custos Luna is playing with a scum agenda. We need to kill him. Sorry that the last part is unorganised. Bloody coding. DoYouHas and Keirathi are very likely town.
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awwwwwwwww lame :/ gg and good luck town
obs QT please
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Right now my main suspect would be HiroPro, especially now with knowledge of prphlz flip, the fact that he was the only person to switch off prhplz onto Forumite and his general inactiveness and lack of scumhunting besides prphlz meta-case which he switched off even before he became busy with RL.
Still with the possibility of a modkill on him, we should probably look for scum member 3 now. I got 2 candidates right now:
risk.nuke His general level of activity has been pretty low. I have been farily unimpressed with his first longer post just above. The case on CL lacks in my opinion. What exonerates him a bit is that he was actually the first to vote prhplz come day2. Could have easily been a bus with the lack of scumhunting in general.
@risk: I assume your post is only halfway done. You said you would comment on more than only CL. Also why do you stop after analyzing day1?
Mordanis
He posts this in Day 2, when the CL train started to stutter and the majority swayed by scib switched over to prhplz.
On August 12 2012 15:12 Mordanis wrote: Could someone explain to me why prplhz is so scummy? I've looked through Custodis filter and seen a lot less scumminess than I'd have hoped for. But I don't see to much at all from prplhz. His lurkiness except for when he's fighting for his life doesn't seem all that scummy to me because that was how I played in my last game. D1+D3 I was pretty active, but I spent most of my free time D2 playing DeusEx. The days I was under heavy suspicion: D1+D3. I'm not saying this makes prplhz town, I just think that lynching based on someone's only activity being defensive isn't such a great idea.
Also, somehow Shiao has somehow escaped being labeled a lurker despite not having posted at all this cycle.
It has been stated again and again that prphlz lurking is not his town meta, so the accusations where lack of content (which was obvious when looking through his filter) and a meta-read. Hardly hidden at all. Coupled with his lacking play in Day 1. I got some serious trouble to see townie Mord in this. Also take a look at what he posts when scib summarized the arguments against prphlz and asked him of his reads:
On August 12 2012 16:03 Mordanis wrote: Frankly I don't know. On the one hand you have CL who made a large mistake in sheeping me, but it isn't alignment-indicative. It's pretty shitty play regardless. On the other hand, you have prpl who has been inactive save for defense. Really, at this point they both seem like bad cases. I really need to read through for a while before I can return with my thoughts. I will say however that all things being equal I would favor the lurker-lynch on the grounds that it might light a fire under the remaining lurkers' asses and get them posting.
He had been fairly assertive that CL is scum based on DYH's case, for reference I quoted:
On August 11 2012 08:09 Mordanis wrote: Actually, in my mind, the scummiest thing in the entire game so far has been your argument to lynch 3 players in a row based on the assumption that one of the players is scum, and then connection-based logic on Hiro.
##Vote Custos Luna
Reading both one also has to see that when CL's connection argument was the scummiest thing in the thread why doesn't Mord refer to it again at all, when he was searching for alingment-indicative things on CL?
Now look at his switchpost:
On August 12 2012 17:15 Mordanis wrote: What it comes down to is whether to lynch CL for his mistakes. IMO "scumslips" are useful tools to enhance your scumhunting, not auto-lynch heuristics. The idea is that scum are more likely than town to "slip", so you look at players who "slip" to confirm their scumminess or store the information away for later. CL has in my mind 2 slips/mistakes. His "IFoundAllTheScumteam" post and his sheeping my vote. While I was at work, during the slower times I was trying to figure out whether CL's play was scummy or rusty. I couldn't decide. After reading through his filter, I have come to believe that he is not scum.
-snipped-
How can someone whom you accused of doing the scummiest thing of all time be exonerated of it entirely? You do not say that he could still be scum, you do not say that you are keeping some suspicion on him. It is making a 180°turn in your opinion on him. To me it looks like you are just trying to be on the "right" side of the lynch, prphlz was set to be hammered, even if you had not switched owing to the abysmal activity of the daycycle. You had alleviated some suspicions I had on you but I believe you have the highest chance to be gobbo nr.3
##Vote: Mordanis
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How convenient for the only one to take the time to defend me to die D=
gg scib
@risk.nuke: To save myself from the nightmare that I'm sure is the formatting of your post, I will be quoting segments of your post so I can respond to them:
First he tries to defend prplhz using logical reasoning. That prplhz has defended himself logicly and that he have presented a counterargument against forumite. The first one of these two are false. prplhz did not defend himself logicly. You can find the post above. Prplhz questions our votes. He does not defend himself and yes there is a difference.
Defending yourself is when you argument against your opponants reasoning. Example: Saying -I'm not scum because of reason X or -You are misunderstanding me, what I really ment is sentence Y
prplhz goes through a quick |quote|&[comment] spree where he questions our votes but still manages to miss the point entirely on as good as all of them. We're accusing him for beeing scum because of his scum meta and he is trying to twist the light into us accusing him for beeing lurky and trying to play the vicitim of a bandwagon. These |quote|&[comment] roundups are very easy to make, look very good. But it's not actually defense if you twist the voters reasoning and don't argue against it.
You are correct. I was wrong on my early prplhz read. When I said he defended himself logically, I should have said he was rational about it. As in, he didn't fly off the handle defending himself. But yes, it wasn't until later that I realized he was only showing up to defend himself. Had I realized it earlier, I may have pushed for the prplhz lynch D1.
I feel Custos Luna beeing a claimed Vet should have seen this. Instead CL makes it sound as prplhz actually have defended himself and since he have defended himself logically he gets some townpoints. All a fake mask hidden beneth well chosen typing.
I'm going to repeat myself here. It has been over a year since I've last played. Me being a "vet" does not mean that I know everyone's "meta" in depth. It's one thing to read through someone's game, and another thing to have played with them and experienced their actions in a certain role.
Mordanis: Why does he bring up Mordanis. What Custos Luna says about Mordanis is true. But why does he bring it up now? I can't see a town-agenda in bringing up another suspect just before the lynch. Especially when he's been treading so carefully and beeing OH SO CAREFULL and explained to us how doubtfull he feels about the lynch candidates. So now he brings up a new candidate who'll have absolutely zero chance of beeing lynched. (And if he actually was lynched it would had been even worse because voteswitches to new targets are almost always a bad idea for town) Custos Luna knows this. However from a scum perspective it makes perfect sense because in a sitaution where Mord is town and Luna scum bringing Mord up both distracts the thread and begins to shift attention to Mord where he begins to get set up for a mislynch because scum doesn't care when they bring up their mis-lynch candidates. They just want to put them under the floodlight and hide in the shadows themselves.
I mentioned Mordanis because he was my target from mid D1. I was not faltering on my beliefs that he is scum. When it was clear to me that things needed to happen to decide between Forumite and prplhz, I acted. Perhaps my actions were not completely correct, but what's happened has happened.
But I need to say atleast one more thing about Luna first. The most significant part which is easiest revieved yourselves. Go to Custos Lunas filter or just read the posts in pages during the voteswitch. Look how CAREFULL Custos Luna is. He is so afraid of putting down an opinion and constantly reminding us how insecure he feels and how he doubts this-and-that and is worried this-is-so. He is so defensive for himself and already before Forumite has been lynched he sets up his defense for the mislynch (which he continues to play out in his post after the flip)
How can you possibly say that I've been posting with any level of care higher than anyone would. There is obvious forethought in my posts, as there is in everyone's posts. End of N1 I targetted the scum team in its entirety and almost died to town because of it. I personally wanted Mord lynched D1, and I was unsure of the two candidates at the time. I wasn't covering my ass in saying that, I was being completely open about my thoughts.
@Shippopie:
You beat me to the punch there and pretty much said most of what I wanted to.
Mordanis changed his stance on me very quickly once Scib defended me and it was pretty clear that my lynch was not going to go through. A complete turn around from his previous opinions on my alignment.
Also, since HiroPro is indisposed (and is more than likely a scum member), we know there is only one scum member active. Scib was the first (and really only) person to step up and make a case in my defense. He is now dead because of this. Mord is the only active player left who I have been consistently targeting, calling him out as the remaining scum member.
Assuming Hiro (or a replacement) doesn't return before a modkill, I'm comfortable with a Mordanis lynch today.
##vote Mordanis
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Shiao: You're blatantly misrepresenting facts. You are lying. Let me start with the most blatant of all. You said that I based my vote on and referenced DYH's case on CL. Pure Bullshit. He hadn't posted his case yet. Let's look at timestamps shall we? + Show Spoiler +On August 11 2012 08:09 Mordanis wrote: Actually, in my mind, the scummiest thing in the entire game so far has been your argument to lynch 3 players in a row based on the assumption that one of the players is scum, and then connection-based logic on Hiro.
##Vote Custos Luna On August 11 2012 11:31 DoYouHas wrote:Thank you thank you thank you Mordanis. Your point about me not including CL was absolutley right, and I was pondering my answer in the shower when I had a bit of a revelation. CL's voteswitch was unique from the others in a very specific way. He let you pick for him Mord. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:36 Custos Luna wrote: Trying to decide the best course of action. You're right, I want to get my vote on a real candidate. Scenarios running through my head:
-I vote Forumite: Mord can force the double lynch. If both Forumite and prplhz are town, this puts us at 6v3 for tomorrow, something I'd really like to avoid.
-I wait for Mord to vote for a real candidate: causes him to choose and I can avoid the double lynch.
If one of prpl and Forumite are scum, the double lynch benefits us. However, I'm still not entirely convinced and I'm trying to figure out how to give us the best chance into this lynch. He implies multiple times that voting Forumite is what he wants to do, so why not actually do it? His reason is that he fears that Mord will force the double lynch if he votes first. But is this a rational fear? no. If Mord is town then he would realize that everyone does not want a double lynch day1 and would not cause one. He probably would have sat on marv and been content that CL took the decision out of his hands. If Mord is scum then he would realize that the town is going to lynch him day2 if he forces a last minute double lynch and that a 2 for 1 trade isn't bad for town day1. Neither alignment would have forced that double lynch in Mord's position. So why would CL put Mord (someone he is supposed to believe is scum, drastically increasing the chance of a mislynch) firmly in the driver's seat of yesterday's lynch? I can think of only one answer: CL knew that either choice would end in a townie flip and did not want to be tied to the blame for it. The language he uses leading up to the lynch only strengthens my belief that this is the case. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 23:27 Custos Luna wrote: EBWOP: DYH, looking back, that does appear to be fairly accurate. I had thought more people unvoted off prplhz and onto Forumite.
If it is necessary, I will switch my vote from Mord to Forumite to avoid the double lynch depending on what is said in the next half hour. However, Mord, you need to decide. Forumite or prplhz. Make your choice. Do so before I am required to or the wrath of the moon will fall upon you. Firm stance on wanting to switch to Forum, immediately hands reins over to Mord to choose Forum or prplhz. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 23:36 Custos Luna wrote: If one of prpl and Forumite are scum, the double lynch benefits us. However, I'm still not entirely convinced and I'm trying to figure out how to give us the best chance into this lynch. Begins to distance himself from a Forumite lynch and even entertains double lynching. + Show Spoiler [Important One] +On August 09 2012 23:54 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 23:49 Keirathi wrote: Welp, I guess that's that. I'm going back to bed.
Custos, don't pull any funny business. I would never! Still unsure on Forumite. But I'm less sure on prpl, and I want to pad some security against a last minute swap/double lynch. Therefore: ##unvote Mordanis ##vote ForumiteThe moon is shocked that Mord has actually committed to something. This is a very important post tone-wise. It starts with a mischievous tone with the bantering line of "I would never!". This bantering statement tells me that CL just relaxed a bit, or even is feeling a bit victorious. This is immediately is followed by an even bigger distancing statement, "Still unsure on Forumite. But I'm less sure on prpl". Then his 'moon' closing is even a bit off of the normal. Up until this point the moon comments by CL have been either normal signoffs or threats. This one is different, it reads to me like a self satisfied dig at Mord, which seems out of place until I fit it to my theory. Custos Luna is SCUM##Vote: Custos Luna I voted 3 hours before DYH made his case. How is my vote based on DYH's case then?
It goes further though. He says that there is no reason to be confused about the bandwagon switching to prpl. This is the reason that D2 seemed so weird to me. prpl wasn't a candidate for the lynch so much as the one candidate was sort of exonerated, and he seemed like the backup lynch. Shiao is expecting me to believe someone based purely on their meta-reads. I apologize if I don't have the brain of a sheep. If you ignore prpl's meta, it becomes a lurker lynch. Why everyone was piling on one of the lurkers instead of the several others is confusing.
Finally you literally cut the bits of my quote that explain your concerns about my switch. Here is what you snipped: + Show Spoiler +On August 12 2012 17:15 Mordanis wrote: ....... CL is obviously a bit rusty, and so if he were scum I'd expect to be able to find lots of little scum-tells along with the major mistakes. I just didn't find any, and not for lack of effort. In short, it simply doesn't make any sense to me to assume that someone is good enough to have a filter basically free from little scum-tells but bad enough to make massive mistakes unless there isn't anything for that player to hide.
It would be completely worthless to switch my vote to anyone other than prpl at this point, but I still feel that I need to comment on him. I feel it is highly likely at least one of the scum are lurking pretty hard, simply because the setup strongly encourages it. 3 mislynches plus 3 night kills yields victory to the scum. While lurkers by their nature don't really contribute, prpl really hasn't done anything at all the entire game. He voted for his counter-wagon, defended himself, and added more to the counterwagon. Take those away and he has zero content. He obviously cares at least a little to save his own ass but doesn't seem to give a shit about finding scum or even contributing to discussion in any way. I do find that scummy.
## Unvote ## Vote prplhz
Luna diem integram novumque tibi donaverit. Aut nox donaverit. Teneas gratior et leta gobbae. The moon has given you a new and fresh day. Or she has given you a night.You may choose whichever pleases you more and you must kill scum. How can I make a complete turn on CL? First I am still wary of him and looking for those small scum-tells, but I explained my reasoning. He made 2 really bad mistakes. Either town or scum can make mistakes, therefore I look for scumtells. I assume that if someone is bad enough to make 2 mistakes like that they'll have a filter full of scumtells unless they are not scum. Would you like me to list 3/4 of CL's posts and go "Hmmm, I don't see any scum tells here."? The alternative is that he is scum and deliberately made the mistakes to get someone to give him town cred, but how would he even know that someone would be looking for those criteria? It doesn't make sense. Also, I feel my reasoning for voting prpl was better than most. Meta-reads are pretty easy to abuse. What I saw was that he only cared about himself, and even then he didn't contribute.
Shiao: you better have a really fucking good reason for lying and manipulating what I wrote to make your case against me stronger.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@Mord: Right one point in your favor is the timestamp, that's one thing I messed up with while rereading, does not take away the main effect, that you were piling onto CL as long as you had DYH applying pressure as well. When it subsided a bit due to scib's defense you turned around. Yes your vote was before the case, does not change the fact that you were on the fence about it only as long as you were not the only one doing pressure.
Also regarding prphlz meta, did you check the games that were referenced to? It got pretty obvious that prphlz was different from his town games. I do not believe you to be a mindless sheep, I believe you to check a game in the past to see if the metaargument does any sense. Since you obviously did not check I can only assume two things lazy townie or scum who does not bother to read up on meta, since you know that prphlz is red anyway.
Ever assumed that a "good" scum player might still slip one or two times? If you had been so sure on CL being scum, why switch? That's my main concern with you. What I would like you to do is stick with your convictions and your reads or give out valid reasons for switching. What you wrote seems to me like: "Hmmm...looks like CL won't be lynched, better switch to prphlz and add some speculations about the setup, when it is clear that prphlz is hammered. And you even said that it is scummy that he has zero content, why couldn't you see it earlier or why couldn't you remember like pretty much everyone did?
Also prphlz was always an alternative to CL in regards of D2 lynch. heck he received a vote first (even if it was risk, with little to no reasoning)
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
EBWOP: @Mord: I do like how you get more assertive when I apply pressure though. Who would you want to lynch today?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
nobody wants to talk to me
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Sorry, I've been busy and decided to take a break from the game for a while. I'll be back later tonight to try and make sense of things.
gg scib.
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I got roleblocked last night.
On August 14 2012 02:22 Custos Luna wrote: You beat me to the punch there and pretty much said most of what I wanted to.
Mordanis changed his stance on me very quickly once Scib defended me and it was pretty clear that my lynch was not going to go through. A complete turn around from his previous opinions on my alignment.
Also, since HiroPro is indisposed (and is more than likely a scum member), we know there is only one scum member active. Scib was the first (and really only) person to step up and make a case in my defense. He is now dead because of this. Mord is the only active player left who I have been consistently targeting, calling him out as the remaining scum member. ##vote Mordanis OK this is the 2nd time you have tried to interpret the night kill in a favorable way to yourself. First time with marv was WIFOMish - perhaps an innocent mistake. However in this case, it is clear from sciberbia's filter that he was leaning town on Mordanis as well. With his kill you assert that the NK is scum killing your defender and pushing for your mislynch, when scib could also have defended Mordanis should his lynch appear. Why is this?
On August 14 2012 04:43 ShiaoPi wrote: @Mord: Right one point in your favor is the timestamp, that's one thing I messed up with while rereading, does not take away the main effect, that you were piling onto CL as long as you had DYH applying pressure as well. When it subsided a bit due to scib's defense you turned around. Yes your vote was before the case, does not change the fact that you were on the fence about it only as long as you were not the only one doing pressure.
What are you talking about? DYH posted his case after Mordanis' vote, and so how does "piling onto CL" make sense if he did it before? (I doubt you are insinuating DYH is scum as well).
On August 14 2012 04:43 ShiaoPi wrote: Also regarding prphlz meta, did you check the games that were referenced to? It got pretty obvious that prphlz was different from his town games. I do not believe you to be a mindless sheep, I believe you to check a game in the past to see if the metaargument does any sense. Since you obviously did not check I can only assume two things lazy townie or scum who does not bother to read up on meta, since you know that prphlz is red anyway.
On August 09 2012 21:08 ShiaoPi wrote: At the moment I really do not know if it is that good to lynch prphlz...It is a lurker lynch bascially, flipping a coin on the chance that it really is different from his meta because he is scum or that he simply lacked time.
On August 09 2012 21:13 ShiaoPi wrote: I like prhplz response to the votes, adds up onto my thoughts that he is just busy.
What the heck is this?
It's really looking like Mordanis is a suspicious looking towny that's being set-up. Shiaopi is flat out going in with the mentality that Mordanis is scum and nitpicking his filter.
##Vote: Shiaopi
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Sweet activity dudes!
Okey Dokey, I had some time to think about SP's post. First off, I think it is important to recognize that SP manipulated, bordering on barefaced lying, my posts to make his case seem stronger. There is zero possible explanation for good townies to make that case. + Show Spoiler [Wordy Logic] +If SP had been a DT and found scum last night, making a case like his would make sense. Unfortunately, the setup allows only 1 power role besides medic, so SP cannot be a DT, or either of the other power roles. It is therefore clear that SP made a really bad post. At least as bad as CL's mistakes. The problem is, I can't accept that heuristic (big mistakes without small mistakes = town) for defense anymore. Clever scum who were playing well could make one big mistake to gain a town read as long as their filter was clean of scum-tells. This means that scum would be playing well (instead of really well and simultaneously really bad), so that heuristic can't be used for defense for quite a while. It can however still be used for hunting scum. If there is a mistake worth investigation, and the player in question has a filter full of minor "slips", they've been playing pretty bad scum. On the other hand, for scum this is a risky but not awful strategy. If everyone who is paying attention has a lobotomy, or waits for too long, a bandwagon could form leading to my mislynch. If it fails, there is always the option of bussing. That is quite a large risk, but the result is enough WIFOM which combined with the lack of activity could lose town the game. Alternatively, they could be trying to gain the same blessing that CL got from me.
Also, I get the feeling from this post that it is a contrivance. The contradictions to his play (which Sloosh pointed out) within the post plus all of the innacuracies make it seem as though he either had some sort of gut read and didn't really bother to fact check fact check at all, or he wrote something he didn't believe to advance some purpose. As I've said earlier, I really don't trust people who plan.
Another player whom I believe is worthy of more suspicion than he's seen is Risk. Virtually no contribution save one post relatively recently.
This is partially in answer to SP's question about whom I'm suspicios of. I'm about to pass out though, so I'll do some more reading in the morning. See you all then.
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So ... no one playing this game anymore?
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I'm actually compiling my thoughts ATM.
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[QUOTE]On August 13 2012 23:56 risk.nuke wrote:
Analysis of the day 1 lynch & the voteswitch So this is basicly two different stories but I'd like to start with the voteswitch because that's what I said I would do and because that's what I feel like doing.
I'd like to direct everyone here [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=15#297]clicky[/url] We're about to lynch a scum, but what happens? These are some of my points of interests. [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=16#304]sciberia reinfoces his case on Forumite[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=16#306]Mordanis throws down a very bad case on a new candidate.[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=16#312]HiroPro voteswitches[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=16#313]prplhz shows up to defend himself[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=16#314]Shiaopi voteswitches[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=16#319]prplhz attacks Forumite[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=17#322]*Custos Lunas morning evalutation[/url] [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358346¤tpage=17#327]Votecount 5-5, 1-1 (back to this later)[/url] And well just read everything after this because it would be easier to say which posts between this and the flip not to bother reading.
I'm going to talk about Custos Luna and his actions during the voteswitch now. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 22:10 Custos Luna wrote: Ok, my morning evaluation:
prplhz: I do not feel that the prplhz wagon has that much merit. He had a few poor posts early, but in the whole, he has responded fairly well to the case against him. He has defended himself logically and presented a counter argument against Forumite.
In my experience, the D1 lurker lynch is almost always inaccurate. The prplhz wagon started because it was easy. The easy way isn't always the right way. I'm glad people are starting to reconsider the vote on prpl for this reason. That's not to say I think he's town, I just think he is less likely to be scum than others at this point.
Forumite: I can see a scenario with Forumite flipping scum. He has been flip floppy all game, and people have pointed out his contradictions. However, he's still not the scummiest in my eyes.
Mordanis: Am I really the only one who sees the COMPLETELY blatant lack of commitment from Mord all game?
-First Half D1: Very fluffy posts with the promise to start scumhunting.
-Second Half D1: Still more fluff. Makes a long post and FoSs shipoopi (still no commitment). He does not cast a vote until very late D1 (sleepy time in my time zone). His vote is on marvel. I would normally have no issue with this if it were at a reasonable time. However, this is crunch time. A lynch on marvel isn't on the table at this point. He makes a case and commitment on something that more than likely will not happen.
Mord's posts are long and filled with nothing. He talks a lot but doesn't say anything. His posts are difficult to follow, and a lack of transparency hurts town. He avoids commitment to a case as much as he can.
I'm sticking with my gut on this one. Mordanis is scum First he tries to defend prplhz using logical reasoning. That prplhz has defended himself logicly and that he have presented a counterargument against forumite. The first one of these two are false. prplhz did not defend himself logicly. You can find the post above. Prplhz questions our votes. He does not defend himself and yes there is a difference.
Defending yourself is when you argument against your opponants reasoning. Example: Saying -I'm not scum because of reason X or -You are misunderstanding me, what I really ment is sentence Y
prplhz goes through a quick [quote]&[comment] spree where he questions our votes but still manages to miss the point entirely on as good as all of them. We're accusing him for beeing scum because of his scum meta and he is trying to twist the light into us accusing him for beeing lurky and trying to play the vicitim of a bandwagon. These [quote]&[comment] roundups are very easy to make, look very good. But it's not actually defense if you twist the voters reasoning and don't argue against it.
I feel Custos Luna beeing a claimed Vet should have seen this. Instead CL makes it sound as prplhz actually have defended himself and since he have defended himself logically he gets some townpoints. All a fake mask hidden beneth well chosen typing.
((I have some issues with the coding not getting it work properly, bare with it.))
As for the counterargument. I suggest you look through prplhz filter yourselves. This is what I think it looks like. Cheap shots. Once more it's just some nice words covering up the truth. Custos Luna is trying to persuade people to get off prplhz and he is using a decitfull way to do it because typing Prplhz counterargumented and defended himself sounds better then Prplzh twisted the light of his accusers accusations and took some cheap shots at the only other person that might get lynched instead of him in a chance to make himself look better by pushing someone else down.
It makes all the difference when someone says He did this when he actually did something else even if they look simmilar on a quick look because it twists an event and changes the situation. It's very scummy behavior.
I'll continue here because I don't like to make to long spoilers and to make sure you read everything.
Mordanis: Why does he bring up Mordanis. What Custos Luna says about Mordanis is true. But why does he bring it up now? I can't see a town-agenda in bringing up another suspect just before the lynch. Especially when he's been treading so carefully and beeing OH SO CAREFULL and explained to us how doubtfull he feels about the lynch candidates. So now he brings up a new candidate who'll have absolutely zero chance of beeing lynched. (And if he actually was lynched it would had been even worse because voteswitches to new targets are almost always a bad idea for town) Custos Luna knows this. However from a scum perspective it makes perfect sense because in a sitaution where Mord is town and Luna scum bringing Mord up both distracts the thread and begins to shift attention to Mord where he begins to get set up for a mislynch because scum doesn't care when they bring up their mis-lynch candidates. They just want to put them under the floodlight and hide in the shadows themselves.
because of coding issues, where I have absolutely no idea where the fault is I'll end this post soon since I can't use any spoilers/quotes/bold/underlined without fucking shit up.
But I need to say atleast one more thing about Luna first. The most significant part which is easiest revieved yourselves. Go to Custos Lunas filter or just read the posts in pages during the voteswitch. Look how CAREFULL Custos Luna is. He is so afraid of putting down an opinion and constantly reminding us how insecure he feels and how he doubts this-and-that and is worried this-is-so. He is so defensive for himself and already before Forumite has been lynched he sets up his defense for the mislynch (which he continues to play out in his post after the flip)
Custos Luna is playing with a scum agenda. We need to kill him. Sorry that the last part is unorganised. Bloody coding. [b]DoYouHas and Keirathi are very likely town.
So I just noticed this. Why didn't you mention sciberbia in your list of "very likely townies" considering it was your end-of-night post? I don't think anyone has had any suspicion of him at all this game, and I know I certainly had a big townie read on him.
See, what I think happened is that you already knew sciberbia was going to die, so you didn't need to mention him in your analysis.
Maybe thats pretty WIFOM, but on top of the rest of the reasons that I have been suspicious of you (lurking, uninterested, post regarding Forumite flip, etc), you have my vote for today.
##Vote: risk.nuke
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EBWOP: Fixed forumatting.
On August 13 2012 23:56 risk.nuke wrote:Analysis of the day 1 lynch & the voteswitch So this is basicly two different stories but I'd like to start with the voteswitch because that's what I said I would do and because that's what I feel like doing. I'd like to direct everyone here clickyWe're about to lynch a scum, but what happens? These are some of my points of interests. sciberia reinfoces his case on ForumiteMordanis throws down a very bad case on a new candidate.HiroPro voteswitchesprplhz shows up to defend himselfShiaopi voteswitchesprplhz attacks Forumite*Custos Lunas morning evalutationVotecount 5-5, 1-1 (back to this later)And well just read everything after this because it would be easier to say which posts between this and the flip not to bother reading.
I'm going to talk about Custos Luna and his actions during the voteswitch now. + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2012 22:10 Custos Luna wrote: Ok, my morning evaluation:
prplhz: I do not feel that the prplhz wagon has that much merit. He had a few poor posts early, but in the whole, he has responded fairly well to the case against him. He has defended himself logically and presented a counter argument against Forumite.
In my experience, the D1 lurker lynch is almost always inaccurate. The prplhz wagon started because it was easy. The easy way isn't always the right way. I'm glad people are starting to reconsider the vote on prpl for this reason. That's not to say I think he's town, I just think he is less likely to be scum than others at this point.
Forumite: I can see a scenario with Forumite flipping scum. He has been flip floppy all game, and people have pointed out his contradictions. However, he's still not the scummiest in my eyes.
Mordanis: Am I really the only one who sees the COMPLETELY blatant lack of commitment from Mord all game?
-First Half D1: Very fluffy posts with the promise to start scumhunting.
-Second Half D1: Still more fluff. Makes a long post and FoSs shipoopi (still no commitment). He does not cast a vote until very late D1 (sleepy time in my time zone). His vote is on marvel. I would normally have no issue with this if it were at a reasonable time. However, this is crunch time. A lynch on marvel isn't on the table at this point. He makes a case and commitment on something that more than likely will not happen.
Mord's posts are long and filled with nothing. He talks a lot but doesn't say anything. His posts are difficult to follow, and a lack of transparency hurts town. He avoids commitment to a case as much as he can.
I'm sticking with my gut on this one. Mordanis is scum First he tries to defend prplhz using logical reasoning. That prplhz has defended himself logicly and that he have presented a counterargument against forumite. The first one of these two are false. prplhz did not defend himself logicly. You can find the post above. Prplhz questions our votes. He does not defend himself and yes there is a difference.
Defending yourself is when you argument against your opponants reasoning. Example: Saying -I'm not scum because of reason X or -You are misunderstanding me, what I really ment is sentence Y
prplhz goes through a quick quote&comment spree where he questions our votes but still manages to miss the point entirely on as good as all of them. We're accusing him for beeing scum because of his scum meta and he is trying to twist the light into us accusing him for beeing lurky and trying to play the vicitim of a bandwagon. These quote&comment roundups are very easy to make, look very good. But it's not actually defense if you twist the voters reasoning and don't argue against it.
I feel Custos Luna beeing a claimed Vet should have seen this. Instead CL makes it sound as prplhz actually have defended himself and since he have defended himself logically he gets some townpoints. All a fake mask hidden beneth well chosen typing.
((I have some issues with the coding not getting it work properly, bare with it.))
As for the counterargument. I suggest you look through prplhz filter yourselves. This is what I think it looks like. Cheap shots. Once more it's just some nice words covering up the truth. Custos Luna is trying to persuade people to get off prplhz and he is using a decitfull way to do it because typing Prplhz counterargumented and defended himself sounds better then Prplzh twisted the light of his accusers accusations and took some cheap shots at the only other person that might get lynched instead of him in a chance to make himself look better by pushing someone else down.
It makes all the difference when someone says He did this when he actually did something else even if they look simmilar on a quick look because it twists an event and changes the situation. It's very scummy behavior.
I'll continue here because I don't like to make to long spoilers and to make sure you read everything. Mordanis: Why does he bring up Mordanis. What Custos Luna says about Mordanis is true. But why does he bring it up now? I can't see a town-agenda in bringing up another suspect just before the lynch. Especially when he's been treading so carefully and beeing OH SO CAREFULL and explained to us how doubtfull he feels about the lynch candidates. So now he brings up a new candidate who'll have absolutely zero chance of beeing lynched. (And if he actually was lynched it would had been even worse because voteswitches to new targets are almost always a bad idea for town) Custos Luna knows this. However from a scum perspective it makes perfect sense because in a sitaution where Mord is town and Luna scum bringing Mord up both distracts the thread and begins to shift attention to Mord where he begins to get set up for a mislynch because scum doesn't care when they bring up their mis-lynch candidates. They just want to put them under the floodlight and hide in the shadows themselves. because of coding issues, where I have absolutely no idea where the fault is I'll end this post soon since I can't use any spoilers/quotes/bold/underlined without fucking shit up. But I need to say atleast one more thing about Luna first. The most significant part which is easiest revieved yourselves. Go to Custos Lunas filter or just read the posts in pages during the voteswitch. Look how CAREFULL Custos Luna is. He is so afraid of putting down an opinion and constantly reminding us how insecure he feels and how he doubts this-and-that and is worried this-is-so. He is so defensive for himself and already before Forumite has been lynched he sets up his defense for the mislynch (which he continues to play out in his post after the flip)
Custos Luna is playing with a scum agenda. We need to kill him. Sorry that the last part is unorganised. Bloody coding. DoYouHas and Keirathi are very likely town.
So I just noticed this. Why didn't you mention sciberbia in your list of "very likely townies" considering it was your end-of-night post? I don't think anyone has had any suspicion of him at all this game, and I know I certainly had a big townie read on him.
See, what I think happened is that you already knew sciberbia was going to die, so you didn't need to mention him in your analysis.
Maybe thats pretty WIFOM, but on top of the rest of the reasons that I have been suspicious of you (lurking, uninterested, post regarding Forumite flip, etc), you have my vote for today.
##Vote: risk.nuke
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I'll comment on Mord/CL/ShiaoPi in a bit. Need to go grab some food first.
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Custos Luna, at this point I would have liked to have you firmly in my town reads, but I can't. Yes, you have your connection case that doesn't make sense from a scum POV. My initial theory about the voteswitch was disproven when prplhz flipped scum. And you were the first to vote prplhz yesterday. But the number of things you have said that bother me and the number of mistakes you have made keep me from leaning town on you.
First off, what is this crap: On August 14 2012 02:22 Custos Luna wrote: How convenient for the only one to take the time to defend me to die D=
Scib was the first (and really only) person to step up and make a case in my defense. He is now dead because of this. Mord is the only active player left who I have been consistently targeting, calling him out as the remaining scum member.
Are you really this paranoid/narcissistic to believe that scib getting killed was all about you? It couldn't have been because he was the town leader, the towniest player, or for any of the other numerous reads he had over the course of the game? This is the second time you have done something like this. It is WIFOM and what is worse, this time you are using it in your case against Mord.
Add on top of that all the problems I have had with your play so far this game. My initial dislike of CL's first 2 posts. My case against CL. (My theory about prplhz and Forumite both being town was proved wrong, but that doesn't change that CL handed his scum read control of the lynch. Possibly just a mistake, but still bad.)
Then risk.nuke's case had 2 things in it that caught my attention. The first is that it is true that CL seemed overly cautious and afraid of firmly taking a side between Forumite and prplhz, even before I pointed out they were tied in votes. Which brings me to CL's morning evaluation. Right here we get CL's opinion that prplhz is a worse lynch than Forumite. But more importantly, look at the function of this post. It attacks the prplhz wagon, proposes Mord as an alternative, and leaves the Forumite wagon fairly untouched, bolstering it if anything. CL has already admitted to a wrong read on prplhz, but that doesn't change that this post fits neatly into scum agenda.
For those first 3 reasons I gave, I'm not going to vote CL(yet), I want a response and some debate before I make my final decision.
@slOosh & Mord - If you actually are looking to push Shiaopi you need more than 1 contradiction and 1 bad case, those have been everywhere this game. If that was all it took to lynch someone Mord would already be dead. I know that slOosh at least is capable of much better case building than what I just read.
Are we all content with HiroPro sitting on the sidelines through N3? He was a top scum connection if prplhz flipped mafia, but now that he has the possibility of being modkilled you all seem content to forget about him.
@ Keirathi What are you thinking right now? Which of the 3 wagons (CL, Mord, Shiaopi) has most merit to you?
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That was a really good catch Keirathi, and I agree with you.
##Vote: risk.nuke
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Sorry for low activity - super busy at work today. I have been reading along though.
@DYH
Yes, I am that paranoid. Look at it from my point of view. I called out what I believed to be the scum team. If I was right, I would expect them to want to discredit me as much as they can. It almost worked D2, but Scib was the only one to make people think "wait a minute, he might be right".
Concerning HiroPro: If he (or some replacement) shows up, we should strongly consider switching to him. If not, he'll flip anyway. If he's scum, awesome. If he's town, then I'll reevaluate my opinions.
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EBWOP: It is possible that I've been wrong about Mord. When I get some time I'm going to reread Mord vs. risk.nuke
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Well that is just one more thing to add to my list of bad play. If you think the most likely reason mafia killed a vet/watcher and the towniest player in the game was to cast suspicion on you, you are deluded.
What you SHOULD have done is made note of the possibility and attacked anyone who came after you using the very same WIFOM reasoning we are complaining about you using.
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Look, I'm sorry you're not pleased with my play this game. If you think I'm scum, then make a case and vote for me. If not, then get over it.
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Working on my post now.
Should have it up within an hour or two.
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Wait a minute....
Risk wasn't even on the prplhz vote.
Final vote count was:
Custos Luna(1): Mordanis, DYH, Keirathi, risk.nuke prplhz(7): CL, Keirathi, sciberbia, sloosh, DYH, Mordanis, ShiaoPi
No Vote: prplhz, HiroPro
Any thoughts on that?
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Risk was the first person to vote prpl D2 without really saying anything and then switched to me soon after my wagon started.
Still trying to decide how I want to evaluate that.
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Right, I forgot his name at the start of the prplhz list.
Should have been:
Custos Luna(1): Mordanis, DYH, Keirathi, risk.nuke prplhz(7): risk.nuke, CL, Keirathi, sciberbia, sloosh, DYH, Mordanis, ShiaoPi
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So I know I said I was going to write up a big post, but I actually have to head out for the afternoon, so it will have to wait. However, in light of recent risk evidence, I feel pretty confident in my read on him and I hope other people will follow my lead.
HiroPro I would want to lynch him today, but since he is likely to be modkilled, I don't see any reason in it. If he gets replaced, then I feel like we should probably lynch him.
risk.nuke Copying points from my n1 case: 1)Did nothing on day 1 except talk about policy and setup until his vote on prplhz. 2)He didn't have a single mention of any scumhunting in his filter besides 2 one-liners about prplhz: calling him out for lurking, and voting him. 3)Made no mention whatsoever of the Forumite or Mordanis cases, but after the night flip he says "Forumite. Don't beat yourself up because some scrubs can't tell cowboy play from scum play. Sit your pretty self down and watch me catch the gobbo bastards.". Why weren't you there defending him pre-flip if you were so sure he was a "cowbow"? 4) Was on the prplhz vote in a late position.
New points:
5) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15845247 6) What was the point in his "Analyzing the vote switch" post? DYH already analyzed it on D2, and came to the conclusion that CL was scum, too. That post feels like he was just sheeping on DYH's work and opinion after the counter wagon didn't work d2, and using a lot of the same evidence to come to the same conclusion. 7) Analyzing his switch to CL after the DYH case, it makes sense for scum to do that. He started the early bus on prplhz, then switched off once there was a solid case on CL with a few townies on board.
All things considered, my vote for today will stay with him unless someone has something extremely overwhelming.
So since I have to go, some quick comments:
Leaning slightly town on CL and Mord. Neither have posts that scream "SCUM AGENDA" to me, although I question CL's WIFOM posts after both nights a bit.
ShiaoPi: Sloosh's case has some solid reasoning that I would like some answers for. His change of thought about prplhz particularly. I still don't feel like he's a better lynch than risk today though.
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Ok, so looking through prplhz's filter, his last post was:
On August 11 2012 08:39 prplhz wrote: Hunting scum on the premise that I'm scum is bad scum hunting (and it's also bad because I'm not scum and you're not going to find anything from this premise).
This leaves me inclined to think I was at least 2/3 right about my prediction.
Mord, I notice you mentioned that you think risk.nuke should be looked at more closely, but now that he is, you haven't said anything. What are your thoughts?
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@DYH: My cases look nicer in other games simply because there is more content to work with. In a slow game like this there is less to work with. My case is solid regardless of how big / small it is.
Reading up on the risk.nuke thing, didn't notice the timing of the vote switch. With his D1 vote do you think he anticipated a Forumite lynch?
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On August 15 2012 06:24 slOosh wrote: @DYH: My cases look nicer in other games simply because there is more content to work with. In a slow game like this there is less to work with. My case is solid regardless of how big / small it is.
Reading up on the risk.nuke thing, didn't notice the timing of the vote switch. With his D1 vote do you think he anticipated a Forumite lynch?
See, I'm not sure. This is what's confusing me. It would have been rather ballsy to sit on prplhz even in the face of a D1 scum lynch.
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On August 15 2012 06:33 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 06:24 slOosh wrote: @DYH: My cases look nicer in other games simply because there is more content to work with. In a slow game like this there is less to work with. My case is solid regardless of how big / small it is.
Reading up on the risk.nuke thing, didn't notice the timing of the vote switch. With his D1 vote do you think he anticipated a Forumite lynch? See, I'm not sure. This is what's confusing me. It would have been rather ballsy to sit on prplhz even in the face of a D1 scum lynch. Well the fact was that a prplhz was very possible D1 and that only near the end did people sway off. It could have been that he anticipated a prplhz lynch ...
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Ok yea that makes sense. Reread the context and here's what I got:
On August 09 2012 14:15 Blazinghand wrote: Vote Count
prplhz (5): DoYouHas, Marvellosity, HiroPro, Forumite, Keirathi Forumite (3): Sciberbia, slOosh, prplhz Mordanis (2): ShiaoPi, Custos Luna
prplhz is currently set to be lynched.
The deadline is in ~9.75 hours at Thursday, Aug 09 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). The person with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
Following this is a throwaway vote on marv by Mordanis, then risk's vote. I think he voted anticipating prplhz's lynch.
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Which reminds me we should start casting votes to prevent any last-minute switches. I would have liked to discussed ShiaoPi but it seems like he went afk and we might not have time to switch over. risk is looking more and more a good alternative.
##Unvote: ShiaoPi ##Vote: risk.nuke
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you guys (town) are all retarded. please kill me so I don't have to play with you dumb fuckers.
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Oh? You haven't seemed to be putting much effort into playing with us anyway
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On August 15 2012 08:11 risk.nuke wrote: you guys (town) are all retarded. please kill me so I don't have to play with you dumb fuckers.
There will be no more statements of this sort, nor will there be any responses to this statement.
This level of aggression is not okay.
No more statements like this, and no more responses to this statement. This behavior is QUITE undwarfly.
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K, my Internet is completely bombed at my house, so I'll have to deal with my phone.
any chance of a vote count, oh great dwarf lord?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Vote Count
risk.nuke (3): Keirathi, DoYouHas, slOosh Mordanis (2): ShiaoPi, Custos Luna Custos Luna (1): risk.nuke
Not Voting(3): Mordanis, Hiropro
risk.nuke is currently set to be lynched.
The deadline is in ~10 hours at Wednesday, Aug 15 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). The person with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
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Oh I haven't voted yet? Thought I had a vote on Mord O_o
Usually when I see people rage like risk, they turn out to be scum...I'll sleep on it and figure out my vote in the morning. It will probably go on risk barring anything huge
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
ah, it seems I somehow missed that. Editing.
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@BH: He votes for Mordanis, not risk.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
LOL IM RETARDED OK EDITING AGAIN SORRY ITS LATE
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Since he obviously cares about being lynched but not about finding scum (with the possible exception of one semi-contributive analysis of D1 voting posted N2/D3), I'll vote for risk. Putting your own interest before town victory seems pretty scummy. I have to wake up in like 6 hours and go on a 20 mile bike ride, so I probably won't be back before the deadline. ##Vote risk.nuke
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
@sloosh: That's what happens if you miss Day2 almost completely. Those were statements from Day 1, where I thought it might have been possible that he really is just busy. Following Day 2 he still did nothing and if I had been present I would have stated my change of stance on him much earlier, can't do that though without bending time so yeah take this explanation or keep hammering me.
Although it looks like Mord will live another day, I am fine with a risk lynch.
Have to ask though, if risk flips town and Hiro as well, what are your reads?
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So last night I worked 15 hours and then afterwork because it was the last day. I came back and I see the entire thread is wearing pants on their head and they've decided that the smartest thing to do now that they know the day 1 bandwagon was close to hitting scum is ignore the suspicious voteswitchers, ignore the people who was voting the townie. lets kill into the people who voted scum. I also see that people haven't comented my case more then. ehm ehh I don't think it's very good. No further explanation. No specifics. And this is from the only person who probably even mentions it. Then Keirathi who's a mad tunneling dumbass ignores not only my case but every other case in the thread and says. Hey nuke didn't mention scriberia in his post. That's probably because he knew he was going to die. Which is wifom at it's best or more likely a coincidence. Or even more fucking likely a misunderstanding because the reason I didn't tell the thread scriberia was town was because I wasn't sure he was. He had done some good stuff and had some good play but it was not indicitve of his alignment (something that you dumb shits clearly don't understand) it could just have been good play regardless of his alignment. Whilst DYH and Keirathi had several points I thought highly unlikely that scum would do. I also thought about including Mordanis but I didn't do that either because his read was based on the assumption that my other reads were right.
And then DYH says oh that's a good point. I'm going to agree on your weak shit-wifom-1-liner case. that's far more suspicious then any other case right now. Just like eyecolor, lets ignore any cases tomorrow aswell and we can just lynch someone with green eyes next.
On August 15 2012 13:54 Custos Luna wrote: Oh I haven't voted yet? Thought I had a vote on Mord O_o
Usually when I see people rage like risk, they turn out to be scum...I'll sleep on it and figure out my vote in the morning. It will probably go on risk barring anything huge Yes. didn't you have earlier scumreads? I see they are forgotten when you can easiliy jump on me. You know the three names you thought were scum... a while ago... the ones you haven't even mentioned... or compared me to. Say which one of them did I replace. Which was your strongest scumread of the three and are I a stronger scumread then him because I must be right, since you don't push for him. Just make sure to fucking kill Custos Luna when I flipped. Or you know, you could lynch someone for having his shoes untied or something... I don't care.
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I'm not sure Keirathi is town anymore so I'm retracting that in case of you dumbasses goes back and considers that information. His retarded actions are scumfriendly and must be regarded as potential scummoves. Or maybe just blatantly retarded but you never know, leaning scum, leaning town? I don't know. I don't care enought to have another look who the final scum is. I've already said more then you shits desserve but judging your level of play after you've killed CL your best options is probably randomlynching because everyone in this game who could tell scumplay from scummy townplay is dead.
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@ risk.nuke
You cannot possibly be surprised at the lack of people flocking to your defense after the seeming lack of effort and your attitude all game.
That said, I'm not sure why you're so eager to want me killed based on your flip. I'm not the one pushing your lynch. I said that in my experience, the post that you made earlier is indicative of scum lashing out and giving up. However, it does not normally come with the following post that you just made. You've come back to talk to us (albeit still quite abbrasive).
Yes. didn't you have earlier scumreads? I see they are forgotten when you can easiliy jump on me. You know the three names you thought were scum... a while ago... the ones you haven't even mentioned... or compared me to. Say which one of them did I replace. Which was your strongest scumread of the three and are I a stronger scumread then him because I must be right, since you don't push for him.
If you'll kindly take notice, my vote is still on Mordanis. I have not switched to you yet, and after much thought last night/this morning, it is because of the voting patterns. I find it hard to believe that a scum member would bank on a prplhz scum lynch D1. It just doesn't fit too well with me. I would expect the scum team to do their best to make it through the easiest day alive.
But can you explain something for me? If you were so sure that prplhz was scum coming into D2, what made you switch onto me and never switch off, despite scib's defense of me? Why wouldn't you follow through on your first scum lead?
And you ask about my earlier scumreads? Of the 3 I called out, 2 are left, and 1 is MIA. The last remaining one is Mordanis, who I still have my vote on and who, this morning, I still think should be lynched.
D1, my shenanigans caused Mordanis to make a choice between Forumite and prplhz. Was it dumb luck that he chose Forumite? Maybe, but in the light of prplhz's flip, that sheds poor light on Mord. Each following day, Mord has jumped on whatever case was opposite him, and faded into the shadows. D2 he only swapped off of me once it was apparent that prplhz was being lynched and that he himself was safe. D3 (today) he jumps on risk.nuke. He is fading between the votes, and although I realize it's late in the day, I think people need to reconsider their vote.
Also, risk.nuke, the moon says you should calm the fuck down.
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You think mord should be lynched but you set yourself up to voteswitch to me. That adds up jo obv-scum
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Are you purposely ignoring this or did you just not bother to read my post all the way through?
But can you explain something for me? If you were so sure that prplhz was scum coming into D2, what made you switch onto me and never switch off, despite scib's defense of me? Why wouldn't you follow through on your first scum lead?
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Why do you wait until 3 hours until the deadline to make your FIRST POST THIS GAME that actually seems like you are invested in it? zzzz. You've lurked all game and done nothing of substance. Not hard to see why people find that suspicious and want to lynch you.
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K risk, I was trying to throw you a last minute line to get some input. Clearly you don't care enough. If you flip town, you've got no one to blame but yourself.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Night 4
The dwarves gathered together, courageous against the darkness. The drawbridge had been raised and the traps set, and for now they knew they were safe against outside attacks. The arguments began anew as they munched on raw plump helmets and passed around mugs of dwarven wine. It had become clear again that a traitor remained in the fortress, and that he was pulling levers and letting in goblins in the night. This had to be stopped.
They finished their meal and admired a fine statue. Just then, risk.nuke reappeared, hauling microcline blocks. "Where have you been?" the craftsdwarves asked, "we had a meeting, and you didn't show up!" Rumbling passed through the group of dwarves. "Go choke on a pig tail," replied risk.nuke, "I've been working all day."
However, the other dwarves were now eyeing him suspiciously. Did he just finish his own meeting... a meeting with GOBLINS? They gathered around him, and pushed him down, carrying him to the bridge-a-pult, normally used for the ejection of Nobles from the fortress. As risk.nuke stood on the bridge, they pulled the lever together and launched him into the stratosphere.
The dwarves returned to the hall to see what the deceased fellow was hauling. Clearly it was weapons, and not dwarflike objects. They opened the wheelbarrow and saw mechanisms and blocks. Too late, they realied, he was a true dwarf. That microcline he was hauling? He was using it to make more trap mechanisms. To defend the fortress. And they killed him.
A dark shadow fell across the dwarves faces as night fell on LiquidTomb.
risk.nuke the dwarven craftsdwarf was lynched
The deadline is in ~24 hours at Thursday, Aug 16 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). Get night actions to both me and BL by then.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I don't know what's going on with HiroPro. Bluelightz will handle this one he gets back.
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Sigh...so how much longer are you guys gonna let Mord live? The moon is growing impatient.
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HiroPro informed me that he should be replaced, as he informed and no replacements have come up,
HiroPro the Dwarf CraftsDwarf has been modkilled also ooops wanst there fore the deadline because of EU3 ._.
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Zzz I'll just be over here in my corner, crying...
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EBWOP: gg risk/hiro
Hope everything is ok IRL hiro
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
gg to both...
anyone mind thinking about lynching Mord now? :>
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Flavor text is up. Sorry for the delay!
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On August 16 2012 00:07 Blazinghand wrote: "Go choke on a pig tail," replied risk.nuke
pissed as I was this made me laugh. good luck town.
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On August 16 2012 01:04 Custos Luna wrote: EBWOP: gg risk/hiro
Hope everything is ok IRL hiro
It's fine now, thanks.
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Gah. I'll be posting my full thoughts hopefully nearer to deadline this time.
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Well I had a nice pretty night post ready to go but my computer did a surprise reboot last night and I lost it. I apologize if this isn't as thoroughly explained or formatted beautifully.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure SP is scum. Remember his D3 accusation of me? I've thought it seemed way too bad to be something he honestly believed was a viable case that would lead to lynching scum. The factual errors that supported his views more than the truth combined with the way he accused me of something and snipped my explanation from the post he quoted simply didn't add up. But I didn't see any reason for any townie or scum to make a post that bad on purpose. Now I do. SP had been the subject of little debate, but from what I can tell most people had a town read on him. As scum, he won't be dying tonight or during any night. How does he explain that when someone brings it up? He manufactures a case that is so bad that people will become wary of him and it will make sense when he doesn't die. How can we tell that he purposely made the case to be bad instead of convincing? See both my and Sloosh's posts about his case. He changes his views he's held the entire game, misrepresents reality, cuts parts of posts that don't fit with his case, and complete lack of follow-through are proof that he didn't really think his case would ever convince people that I'm scum. There's also the subject of his case. CL has been trying to get me lynched since D1, so SP knows that at least one person will side with him no matter what.
Long story short: SP is not going to die and he is almost certainly scum.
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EBWOP I'll almost certainly be back because an easy lynch like me in LYLO is pretty nice for scum.
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On August 16 2012 23:56 Mordanis wrote: Well I had a nice pretty night post ready to go but my computer did a surprise reboot last night and I lost it. I apologize if this isn't as thoroughly explained or formatted beautifully.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure SP is scum. Remember his D3 accusation of me? I've thought it seemed way too bad to be something he honestly believed was a viable case that would lead to lynching scum. The factual errors that supported his views more than the truth combined with the way he accused me of something and snipped my explanation from the post he quoted simply didn't add up. But I didn't see any reason for any townie or scum to make a post that bad on purpose. Now I do. SP had been the subject of little debate, but from what I can tell most people had a town read on him. As scum, he won't be dying tonight or during any night. How does he explain that when someone brings it up? He manufactures a case that is so bad that people will become wary of him and it will make sense when he doesn't die. How can we tell that he purposely made the case to be bad instead of convincing? See both my and Sloosh's posts about his case. He changes his views he's held the entire game, misrepresents reality, cuts parts of posts that don't fit with his case, and complete lack of follow-through are proof that he didn't really think his case would ever convince people that I'm scum. There's also the subject of his case. CL has been trying to get me lynched since D1, so SP knows that at least one person will side with him no matter what.
Long story short: SP is not going to die and he is almost certainly scum.
You're right, and I've been noticing that too.
Need to be careful today. We at MYLO yo
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We're in LYLO now. Lets stop sucking, k?
Yea, yesterday was probably my fault. I take full responsibility for our terrible lynch. Sorry risk
The way I see it, today is going to come down to Mordanis vs CL (or maybe me? I hope not, but after my abysmal performance yesterday I would understand getting lynched at this point).
Mordanis
1) General wordiness and fluff posts at the beginning of the game - null alignment tell from him 2) Random case on Marv with a throwaway vote at the end of the day - scummy point; I can't see any townie motivation for this when he really needed to be taking a stand on the candidates that were up for lynch. 3) Voted Forumite when pressured by CL to make a vote - minor scummy point 4) Soft defended prplhz on day 2 - minor scummy point 5) General inactivity d3 - null
Custos Luna 1) We all know about him sheeping his scum read on day1 via Mordanis. I can't decide if this is just really terrible play or scum play. 2) His last post before he votes Forumite says something along the lines of "I'm not convinced there's a scum between Forumite and prplhz", then in his night reads post he is suddenly making the assumption that prplhz is scum to make a case on HiroPro and keep pressure on Mordanis. Following this, he votes for Hiro instead of prplhz, although he does eventually switch to prpl in the first position. Pretty easily could have been a bus, but doesn't necessarily have to be one. 3) WIFOM posts on day2 and day3 speculating on the reasons for the NK.
Sorry, I don't have time to finish this before the day post, but just in case I'm the NK, I'll add that with my initial read through, I think CL has more things that don't add up than Mord.
If I'm not killed, I'll write up a full case with quotes and opinions to go along with it.
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Day 5
At night, Keirathi was secretly tendering to the wounds of some dwarves, suddenly, as he was about to amputate a leg, a feeling went down through his spine......... blood streamed down, and he fell dead, his assasins instantly rushed out of the place, as if no one was there.
"It is still worth it?" a Dwarf asks? obviously, he's tired, was Keirathi's efforts enough?, is it in vain?.
we shall find out, as soon as the dwarves leave victorious, or dead.
Keirathi the Chief Medical Dwarf has been stabbed in the back!
You has 48 hours to vote.
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Do we have the option to no-lynch though? If we don't then MYLO=LYLO, unless we can lynch a host or something
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On August 17 2012 00:02 Mordanis wrote:Do we have the option to no-lynch though? If we don't then MYLO=LYLO, unless we can lynch a host or something
No. Someone will die in the end.
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gg all, and good luck.
Sorry Bluelightz for being relatively inactive. It was hard to find motivation to keep playing when the whole town was basically lurking
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Lol christ, we're so boned.
Woulda been nice if you claimed and gave us your protection targets in that last post Keir - we at MYLO (LYLO, same thing this game) anyway, woulda been nice just to know. gg
If I'm not killed, I'll write up a full case with quotes and opinions to go along with it.
Always something you should do just before the day post comes out <3
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On August 17 2012 00:05 Keirathi wrote:gg all, and good luck. Sorry Bluelightz for being relatively inactive. It was hard to find motivation to keep playing when the whole town was basically lurking
Not getting banned is good in my book :D
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On August 16 2012 08:50 slOosh wrote: Gah. I'll be posting my full thoughts hopefully nearer to deadline this time.
Super glad you followed through on this... ~_~
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Hey DYH, where are your thoughts at? Haven't heard from you in a bit
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I think we are screwed. I think I need to review the whole damn thread and do a little filter digging. The only person that I know enough to make a case on right now is CL, which is indicative of tunneling, which I can't afford to be doing in LYLO.
We can't afford this town's general activity level in LYLO. I'm going to be stepping it up today, please do the same.
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I will be doing the same when my time permits.
The remaining 2 scum are in Mord, Shipoopie, and sloosh. I'm leaning Mord/shipoopie, but I want to hear from sloosh. He said he'd be posting near deadline, but he has yet to say anything.
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I think we should definitely double lynch right now. Since town has 2 more people than scum and no medic, the results of lynching no scum are identical for single and double lynch. The chances of winning instantly by nailing 2 scum are low, but possible. The main thing though is that if we double lynch we're much more likely to hit 1 scum, and we get double benefits from this: We go to the second LYLO with 2 town vs. 1 scum (higher chance of getting scum) and of course we are more likely to go to the second LYLO.
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There are 5 people left. You, me, sloosh, shipoopie, DYH (unless I'm missing someone).
If we double lynch and only get 1 scum, we'd be at 2v1 going into night, and D5 it's 1v1 scum wins. We would have to lynch both scum now.
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Lol I miscounted. You're totally right.
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Gah sorry guys, overslept and was late for my presentation.
Double lynch will not work because to do it we need a split of 2-2 on the two scum, which requires co-operation of scum since there are only three of us townies, let alone the danger of if we lynch scum and town, where the scum can just last minute switch so only town dies. We need to consolidate early on one scum target - thinking ahead in this scenario is very dangerous.
The scum we need to lynch today is ShiaoPi.
Vote Analysis: D1:
On August 09 2012 21:08 ShiaoPi wrote:At the moment I really do not know if it is that good to lynch prphlz...It is a lurker lynch bascially, flipping a coin on the chance that it really is different from his meta because he is scum or that he simply lacked time. Reading through the latest points of scib got me convinced that Forumite might actually be scum. Coupled with Mord actually starting to make sense, when I look at it from his point of view (no offense ) and my discomfort with a prphlz lynch I expressed above, I will change my vote to Forumite. Since my vote on Mord achieved some success in getting him to post more sensible and it probably won't get any traction looking at it in 3 hours to deadline. ##unvote ##Vote: Forumite
Toward the end of D1 ShiaoPi puts his vote straight onto Forumite's mislynch after prplhz posts his "defense" and town starts swaying. See how the first bold line supports and encourages people to move their votes away from prplhz. But who is he switching onto? The second bold line shows how he says he is convinced that Forumite might be scum. It's very safe and distancing himself when Forumite flipped town. Also note how he says Mord makes sense - I'll address it later but we can see the start of how he is on the fence with Mord and only goes after him when CL starts to.
D2: ShiaoPi was unable to access internet the whole cycle for a legitimate reason. Unfortunate because he posts 1 hour before deadline when prplhz is already set up to be lynched, and furthermore because his last post before this one prplhz was just another name in a list of equally slightly suspicious people (amongst Mordanis and HiroPro)
On August 10 2012 08:23 ShiaoPi wrote: Mord: I believe my stance on him is quite clear from my filter. What I really do not understand is, while he is kind of right to place some distrust on marv his vote seems like such a throwaway especially with him being absent right after. But in regards to his voteswitch he delievers explanation and he makes sense with it. Also I think his play got a tad better since I called him out. I guess wait and see has to be the course of action on him. If he does some (wholly) decent case not like the against me or parts of the one against Marv I could see him as town, but until then no.
Custos: I liked his play a lot (maybe biased because he was agreeing with me), he is also taking clear stances, trying to convince people of his opinions and as a bonus also did not doublelynch when he had the possibility (that would have been suicidal as scum though if both flipped town, so it might not matter that much.)
Conclusively I want to keep an eye open on prphlz and Mordanis, while I want Hiro to answer my question before I judge him. as a heads-up I won't have too much time tomorrow and might not make it back before the deadline, will try though. Crashing out now at later than 1 AM. Night! We see here that ShiaoPi is ok with Mordanis, and putting him on the sidelines. Also notable is that this is where he buddies up to Custos when Custos was not in any danger of being lynched D1. Scum like to buddy town so they aren't suspected.
Post analysis: I've already pointed out a HUGE contradiction in ShiaoPi's play - that he went in with the mentality that Mordanis is scum and nitpicked his filter for information to incriminate him. This is something only scum do - townies look at information first and then make a conclusion. Since scum already know alignments, they can only pretend to do this, but here he messes up setting up the mislynch and shows how he is just looking for information.
On August 14 2012 07:59 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:43 ShiaoPi wrote: @Mord: Right one point in your favor is the timestamp, that's one thing I messed up with while rereading, does not take away the main effect, that you were piling onto CL as long as you had DYH applying pressure as well. When it subsided a bit due to scib's defense you turned around. Yes your vote was before the case, does not change the fact that you were on the fence about it only as long as you were not the only one doing pressure.
What are you talking about? DYH posted his case after Mordanis' vote, and so how does "piling onto CL" make sense if he did it before? (I doubt you are insinuating DYH is scum as well). Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 04:43 ShiaoPi wrote: Also regarding prphlz meta, did you check the games that were referenced to? It got pretty obvious that prphlz was different from his town games. I do not believe you to be a mindless sheep, I believe you to check a game in the past to see if the metaargument does any sense. Since you obviously did not check I can only assume two things lazy townie or scum who does not bother to read up on meta, since you know that prphlz is red anyway.
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 21:08 ShiaoPi wrote: At the moment I really do not know if it is that good to lynch prphlz...It is a lurker lynch bascially, flipping a coin on the chance that it really is different from his meta because he is scum or that he simply lacked time.
Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 21:13 ShiaoPi wrote: I like prhplz response to the votes, adds up onto my thoughts that he is just busy.
What the heck is this? It's really looking like Mordanis is a suspicious looking towny that's being set-up. Shiaopi is flat out going in with the mentality that Mordanis is scum and nitpicking his filter. ##Vote: Shiaopi
His defense is as follows:
On August 15 2012 18:04 ShiaoPi wrote: @sloosh: That's what happens if you miss Day2 almost completely. Those were statements from Day 1, where I thought it might have been possible that he really is just busy. Following Day 2 he still did nothing and if I had been present I would have stated my change of stance on him much earlier, can't do that though without bending time so yeah take this explanation or keep hammering me.
Although it looks like Mord will live another day, I am fine with a risk lynch.
Have to ask though, if risk flips town and Hiro as well, what are your reads? Now if you read the earlier parts of my case, you would know by now that ShiaoPi thought Mordanis' D1 play was OK! That it was looking better! There are two glaring contradictions here. One is that he is falsifying information to push a case. The second is that the logic he uses to push Mordanis is in fact things that he himself are guilty of. If you read his D1 stance and his D3 stance, they are totally at odds.
On August 16 2012 01:07 ShiaoPi wrote: gg to both...
anyone mind thinking about lynching Mord now? :> Once the risk mislynch happens you can see him trying to redirect us to lynch Mordanis! You see him kinda go-with-the-flow, pretending to push for Mordanis but agreeing with whatever mislynch appears! He doesn't ever fight to get Mordanis lynched, which betrays his hesitation to actually push for the lynch.
ShiaoPi is scum and we need to gather all votes on him. If even just one of our votes are misplaced, scum can do a last minute vote switch. We need to consolidate early and fast.
##Vote: ShiaoPi
I'm going on a trip today where internet access will be iffy, so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to respond / explain, but I'll be back in time for the night to discuss the final scum. We can still do it guys!
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Wait, what do you mean by iffy, slOosh? Will you be able to post later or won't you?
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I don't know, hence the word iffy. Thoughts on my case or do you think there is someone more surefire scum? Because we NEED to hit scum today.
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It matters quite a bit if you can't. If you can't post then our options for lynching are narrowed down to either Shiao or slOosh. We need all 3 townies on the same person to ensure that vote switching at the deadline won't lose the game right there. So if you are not available for switching your vote then the only decision left to the rest of us is whether or not shiaopi or slOosh is more likely scum.
As for your case slOosh, it has merit. I'll elaborate later, busy atm.
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Sloosh, I think your case is pretty spot on. I have been tunneling Mord so hard (I do still think he's likely scum) that Shipoopie flew completely under my radar, and no one is at fault for that other than myself.
Mord pointed out that Shipoopie was hiding behind everything that I was doing involving the Mord case. I missed the fact that he defended Mord D1.
I'm good with shipoopie dead today. I'm looking forward to anything you can add DYH. I'm still in the process of rereading.
##vote ShiaoPi
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Something is very off about this. Think about it. slOosh and CL are voting Shiaopi. This means that to slOosh and CL the remaining scum are shiaopi and Mord. For a while now I have thought that 1 of them was scum, but not both. They have been at one another's throats this whole game, which doesn't scream scum team to me.
So, if they are not the scum team, that means that one of CL and slOosh is scum. Which makes this lynch on Shiaopi much more likely to be a mislynch. If this line of thinking is accurate then 2/3 of slOosh, CL, and Mord are scum.
This is what I want discussed. How likely is a Mord/shiaopi scum team? Because if it isn't likely, then both of you are on the wrong person. I can see the possibility that they have been opposing each other but not actually looking to get each other killed all game for just such a situation as this. But the level of play this game has been pretty low, so I would be surprised if they committed themselves to something like that so early.
Thoughts?
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Really? You wouldn't expect the remaining scum members to want to appear against each other?
They've been somewhat targetting each other, but neither has put ANY real effort into getting the other lynched.
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EBWOP: I also said earlier (higher on this page) that I was leaning Mord/shipoopie scum team
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On August 17 2012 10:59 Custos Luna wrote: EBWOP: I also said earlier (higher on this page) that I was leaning Mord/shipoopie scum team
LOL!
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On August 17 2012 13:03 Custos Luna wrote: O-o
wat
On August 17 2012 10:59 Custos Luna wrote: EBWOP: I also said earlier (higher on this page) that I was leaning Mord/shipoopie scum team
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Yeah. I guess I can see your point CL. They attack each other, but tend to switch off to a different wagon for the vote. Take day 1 for instance. Shiaopi goes after Mord until Mord's posting quality goes up and then drops it. Mord goes after Shiaopi until his case gets attacked and he switches to marv.
It might not be as unlikely as I thought, and it definitely fits my reads. After taking a broader view I don't find that CL's bad play necessarily = scummy play, and I would lynch either shiaopi or Mord before him. And I feel like slOosh has been genuinely scum hunting.
##Vote: ShiaoPi
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Hey CL, I would appreciate it if you wrote my nick correctly or abbreviate it as Shiao, while voting you seem to be able to do so, so it should not take too much effort right?
Reading through in detail now
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Hey shipoopie,
No.
Are you guys seriously just realizing I've been doing this now? I've been doing it all game.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
I realized it earlier and thought you were having an issue with typo... nevermind then I'll just say fuck you all the time as well. Thx!
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
First off I believe Sloosh to be town. Genunine Scumhunting from him, unfortunately he is going after me and I am Town. I can totally understand why I jump out as scummy to him. I can say that my interactions with Mord are largely due to the fact that I have had a gut read of scum on him since D1. I cannot really convince any of you by saying "hey I think Mord is scum" that is where the "nitpicking" sloosh pointed out happened and stems from. I believe him scum and therefore I searched for things that made him scummy in order to convince the rest of town. Regarding my switch at the end of D1 I did not like a lurker lynch D1 and gave prphlz the benefit of the doubt for being busy something I changed after D2. I switched onto Forumite since he could have been scum, I admit I was not really convinced by it, but me voting anyone else would have been a waste of vote.
I did back off Mord a bit D1 as it was clear he was not going to be lynched, having only 2 votes close to deadline with 2 people having 3/4 votes respectively (IIRC). D2 you call me out for "buddying" to CL (fuck you CL btw), I was under the impression he had a chance to be lynched D2 if scib had not defended him and catching up to the thread that close to deadline made me think a comment on general proceedings of the day was warranted. I had him as a town read at that moment, something I have reconsidered right now.
Furthermore I always tried to lynch Mord...D2 I was gone so I couldn't D1 I did it until it got clear that my vote would be worth more on one of the two principal candidates. D3 I pushed him again, only to have the majority of town decide to lynch risk, with what I was okay with.
Hopefully that helps with explaining my play a bit. If it does not work, keep asking maybe I'll convince you that I am town to avoid us losing the game right now. Maybe I should stop tunneling Mord like a madman, gut reads can be wrong anyway.
My other scumread besides Mord would be CL. While D1 halfway through D2 I had him as farily townie it changed with the way he played from then to now. Especially this post is ringing alarm bells:
On August 17 2012 09:20 Custos Luna wrote: Sloosh, I think your case is pretty spot on. I have been tunneling Mord so hard (I do still think he's likely scum) that Shipoopie flew completely under my radar, and no one is at fault for that other than myself.
Mord pointed out that Shipoopie was hiding behind everything that I was doing involving the Mord case. I missed the fact that he defended Mord D1.
I'm good with shipoopie dead today. I'm looking forward to anything you can add DYH. I'm still in the process of rereading.
##vote ShiaoPi
He is in my opinion "safely" bussing Mord since he will not get lynched regardless of how hard I am tunneling Mord also he is blatantly mispresenting facts. I was the one to push Mord first D1 and D3, he always just jumped onto it as only other player basicly (which was also part why I had him as town until now)
##Vote: Custos Luna
Fuck you CL btw, your Latin is hilariously bad!
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Quite enjoying the ad hominem attacks, thanks!
You have not once "pushed" Mord. You've placed your vote on him, made a few points, but, again, made no real effort to see him lynched.
You say you switched to Forumite, but you weren't really convinced. Are you fucking kidding me?
On August 09 2012 21:08 ShiaoPi wrote:First off regarding Mord: While I can agree on your point that marv seems overly cautious I cannot agree with your points about his vote. What he does by pressure voting first custos then prphlz is to discourage inactivity and not getting involved with the discussion. How can you say that this is not playing with townmotivation in mind if it helps combat anti-town play? But nevertheless, this seems to me at least an improvement from your case on me. It is correct to be wary of marv. At the moment I really do not know if it is that good to lynch prphlz...It is a lurker lynch bascially, flipping a coin on the chance that it really is different from his meta because he is scum or that he simply lacked time. Reading through the latest points of scib got me convinced that Forumite might actually be scum. Coupled with Mord actually starting to make sense, when I look at it from his point of view (no offense ) and my discomfort with a prphlz lynch I expressed above, I will change my vote to Forumite. Since my vote on Mord achieved some success in getting him to post more sensible and it probably won't get any traction looking at it in 3 hours to deadline. ##unvote ##Vote: Forumite
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Just as much as I enjoyed them I hope CL!
If I have not pushed Mord how can you say that you tunneled him hard? That's a fucking ridiculous claim.
Also look at the thing you bolded, it says that Forumite "MIGHT ACTUALLY BE SCUM" it does not say HE IS SCUM, LYNCH THE RED DUDE, GO BURN HIM WITH FIRE
Seriously you want to argue semantics and you fail at it, just stop it.
marv, fuck you too! <3
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Hey Town!! You still alive? Right now you are mislynching really really badly, so please... GET THE FUCK IN THE THREAD AND STUFF!!!
Thanks!
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Mmm...kicking and screaming generally doesn't solve anything shipoopie
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Just because you are happy to mislynch me for the win, does not mean I can scratch and bite at you and the rest of this inactive town in an attempt to salvage what chances are left for a town victory
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
EBWOP: Just because you are happy to mislynch me for the win, does not mean I cannot scratch and bite at you and the rest of this inactive town in an attempt to salvage what chances are left for a town victory. stupid me
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Until slOosh confirms that he has internet and can post I have to assume that he will be out of contact through the deadline. That means that the vote is between slOosh and ShiaoPi, period. Shiao is much scummier than slOosh, that is where my vote is staying unless slOosh gets back changes things.
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Oh, lynching you isn't for the win. We still need another day to pop your scum buddy
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
well at least DYH is here and reading. Mord has vanished for the entire cycle thus far which is fucking crap anyway. Seriously I know I played a horrible town game but still loosing this because sloosh might not have internet is the stupidest loss ever.
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Really sorry I haven't been as active as I'd have liked T.T
As I wrote earlier, I'm pretty sure SP is scum, and his lack of scum hunting while under suspicion pretty much seals my vote. There is no reason for a townie in LYLO to only defend himself. His only goal this cycle seems to have been to keep himself from being lynched, which seems much more of a scum goal at this point. As scum, it can't hurt and you also can't slip and give away your scumbuddy.
##Vote: ShiaoPi
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
ahahahaah mordanis with saying I did not scumhunt, where is my vote? Oh wait it ended up on CL.... Obviously it is part of my goal to stay alive since we FUCKING LOSE if you mislynch me....
Well town seems content to sheep the offline guy.
GG scumteam Mord/CL
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
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Deadline is over, Flavor soon(tm)
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You don't know how you're going to flip?
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Endgame
It was one night, the Chief Medical Dwarf, had been found dead earlier in the morning, the Dragons were as usual spewing fire into the fort, but today something different happened.
"YOU!" Custos Luna cried!
"You! You are the source of our troubles!" he remarked again.
"Why?! I was just drinking this booze here!" ShiaoPi replied.
"Yeah I think it was him" Mordanis said
"It ends now." as Custos Luna slit ShiaoPi's throat
To their horror...... green blood spewed out of ShiaoPi's body, then it happened, the Dwarves cowered in fear, with the chief medical dwarf dead, who could save them now? Goblin pity? No. that couldn't be trusted. Then what, they thought? Apparently, nothing.
The next morning, the Dwarves, in horror found 6 dragons and a horde of goblins marching in, and a bolt through their eyes as soon as they awoke, they cried at the sight of Goblins stealing their booze, oh the horror!
ShiaoPi the Dwarf Craft's Dwarf has been Lynched!.
Mordanis, Custos Luna, and sciberbia has been endgamed!
slOosh, the Goblin Kidnapper, and DoYouHas, the Goblin Invader has won the game!
Other Details to be provided later.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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wow, I wasn't anywhere near close lol.
gg guys
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
pretty shoddy last day with slOosh disappearing like that.
really cheap imo.
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It wouldn't have made any difference. I personally felt a slight hesitation with Sloosh's "we need to consolidate early" statement, but that was literally the only thing that I saw between the two...
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
town inactivity = scum MVP
gg all
hope to never participate in a 32 page mini ever again
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Hey marv, how does inactivity = "doesn't care about town" = scum? Were you just going for a lurker lynch D1?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I was going for a scum lynch, and prplhz had a reasonable chance of flipping scum as he clearly didn't give a shit about town.
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GG.
Sorry for fostering the inactivity this game. I was playing way outside my town meta most of the time and the inactivity helped me hide it.
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*shrug* gg
I went way outside my normal play to try and make plays. Didn't work, clearly.
Forumite flopping over without defending himself D1, risk only deciding to care 2 hours before his death, and hiro mod killed. Marvel popped N1 as tracker. Very disheartening.
Surprised though, I was pretty sure DYH was town.
I tried to keep activity up D2 and 3, but I guess I wasn't effective and it felt like I had nothing to work with.
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Vatican City State135 Posts
CL, the thing that got me and all the people I talked to was:
1) sheeping Mordanis day 1. Super dumb thing to do. Hold yourself accountable for your own vote 2) you went from defending prplhz during day 1 lynch to assuming he was scum and making connection theories with him after it.
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Alright guys, Imma going to sleep, hopefully BH will help you guys out w/ the qts and everything(or till I wake up)
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I'm pretty interested to see the obs qt. Hopefully it was more active than the thread.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
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What he said. We discussed it a lot after I died, and I could literally make a case on all 5 people at that point.
E: Also a bit of a series of unfortunate events. I actually had ##protect marvellosity typed out night1, but at the last second I changed it to sciberbia because I convinced myself that marv was scum and scib was the clear second choice.
However, that meant that I couldn't prot scib n2 now, when I was 99% sure he was going to be the one killed.
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If he was town, he was 99% going to be the hit. I don't see any scum-team out of the available players that would let him live, especially with his recent scum lynch streak.
I just convinced myself at the last second that he wasn't town.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Good morning gents!
OBS QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/gts8a2CDre3 GOB QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/ryeZJk6AxwZ
Role list:
prplhz: Goon DoYouHas: Goon slOosh: Roleblocker
Marvellosity: Watcher Keirathi: Doctor
HiroPro: VT Custos Luna: VT sciberbia: VT ShiaoPi: VT Forumite: VT risk.nuke: VT Mordanis: VT
Night Actions:
N1: Scum: Shoot Marvellosity Keirathi: Protect Sciberbia Marvellosity: Watch DoYouHas
N2: Scum: Shoot sciberbia Keirathi: Protect slOosh
N3: Scum: Shoot Keirathi Keirathi: Protect DoYouHas
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From scum QT:
slOosh wrote: Keir is definitely more quiet than usual meta, but I think its probably because this game is so stagnant and it feeds off itself.
Yea, I feel pretty bad about that, but you hit the nail on the head. My lack of motivation kept me from posting more to get conversation running, and the lack of conversation killed my motivation. Catch-22, and I feel pretty terrible for it.
Also: rofl at protecting scum n2 and n3
n2 was basically just a throwaway protect because I was pretty damn sure that scib was going to be hit, and I was pretty sure I wasn't going to want to protect slOosh n3.
The n3 protect was because I started thinking CL was mafia (because lets admit it, he had a lot of extremely scummy plays), and DYH was pushing him the hardest.
In hindsight, I should have been more suspicious of DYH's "Oh yea Keir, good point I agree. ##vote risk".
I dunno, my reads weren't really that great and like I said, at the end I honestly had no clue who the actual scum was because no one had done anything to appear especially townie, and everyone had things that could be construed as scum motivated.
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Holy crap. I got watched N1. I was the one sending in all the kills, so that is scary.
Something that I realized might give me away later was the final vote count from day 1. In a situation where votes are on 2 main candidates, mafia almost always split their vote between them. In this case it was only slightly less likely because prplhz was scum so all scum 'might' have piled onto Forumite. But still, as town, I would have held to the vote splitting theory. Here is where it gets a bit tricky.
prplhz(5): DYH, Marvel, Forumite, Keirathi, risk.nuke
After the hit on Keirathi, I was the only one from the original prplhz wagon left alive. All the others were townie. To me, this would have been a major red flag.
But you got to give me a little credit for those blue snipes.
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I was really floundering on what to do day 3. I didn't know who I wanted to go after. That is why I jumped on your wagon so quickly Keirathi. You gave me an out that also got rid of risk for us. Win-win.
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On August 19 2012 03:37 DoYouHas wrote: Something that I realized might give me away later was the final vote count from day 1. In a situation where votes are on 2 main candidates, mafia almost always split their vote between them. In this case it was only slightly less likely because prplhz was scum so all scum 'might' have piled onto Forumite.
Marv and I actually talked about that specifically after I died (and I believe he talked to VE about it to). We were all of the opinion that all 3 piling onto Forumite to save prplhz wouldn't have been a terrible play, because TL Mafia meta in general is that "scum never does obviously bad things".
E: for reference:
+ Show Spoiler [IRC Chat] +[08/16][16:49:25] <marvellosity> Dwarf is annoying me [08/16][16:49:51] <marvellosity> i dislike not knowing the answer :< [08/16][16:49:57] <Laggy> its been annoying me since i made terrible saves and let the two active people get lynched [08/16][16:49:58] <Laggy> err [08/16][16:50:00] <Laggy> NKd [08/16][16:50:11] <Laggy> two active townies* [08/16][16:50:12] <marvellosity> haha [08/16][16:50:19] <marvellosity> your day 1 save [08/16][16:50:20] <marvellosity> was not a bad one [08/16][16:50:25] <marvellosity> just meant it fucked your day 2 save [08/16][16:50:32] <Laggy> aye [08/16][16:51:15] <marvellosity> games like that make it obvious why i get NKd, i mean i'm a reasonable scumhunter, nothing that glam... but i don't let towns go inactive [08/16][16:51:23] <Laggy> i kind of wish i did save you though [08/16][16:51:23] <marvellosity> fuck that shit [08/16][16:51:27] <Laggy> and then wasted my n2 save [08/16][16:51:31] <Laggy> then saved scib n3 [08/16][16:51:34] <Laggy> would have been epic [08/16][16:51:39] <marvellosity> hehe [08/16][16:51:40] <marvellosity> yeah [08/16][16:51:50] <marvellosity> but like [08/16][16:51:58] <marvellosity> scib came across townier than me day 1, so what can you do [08/16][16:52:02] <Laggy> yea [08/16][16:52:06] <Laggy> hard to make that choice [08/16][16:52:26] <marvellosity> mm [08/16][16:52:32] <marvellosity> especially when you had some suspicions of me [08/16][16:52:34] <marvellosity> if you look back on it [08/16][16:52:36] <Laggy> like i said, if you *WERE* townie, you were pretty obviously going to be the n1 hit [08/16][16:52:37] <marvellosity> you can't blame yourself [08/16][16:52:52] <marvellosity> mm [08/16][16:53:01] <Laggy> i mean, scib might have been more townie than you, but i don't imagine any scum fancies trying to get you lynched [08/16][16:53:08] <marvellosity> no [08/16][16:53:23] <marvellosity> good luck to the one who tries [08/16][16:53:25] <Laggy> and you were already voting prpl [08/16][16:53:31] <marvellosity> mm [08/16][16:53:35] <Laggy> so it made sense from their pov to kill you [08/16][16:53:36] <marvellosity> in hindsight [08/16][16:53:37] <marvellosity> yea [08/16][16:53:40] <marvellosity> with my vote on scum [08/16][16:53:43] <marvellosity> someone who keeps town active [08/16][16:53:47] <marvellosity> who the fuck else are you going to vote [08/16][16:53:52] <Laggy> aye [08/16][16:53:55] <marvellosity> *NK [08/16][16:53:59] <marvellosity> but that info isnt in the thread at the time [08/16][16:54:18] <marvellosity> the day 1 votecount is seriously boggling me [08/16][16:54:27] <marvellosity> if DYH isn't scum, scum went all-in on Forumite [08/16][16:54:32] <Laggy> yea :o [08/16][16:54:48] <marvellosity> more and more [08/16][16:54:50] <marvellosity> i think [08/16][16:54:57] <marvellosity> that's not actually a bad play like everyone thinks it is [08/16][16:55:09] <Laggy> right, because everyone assumes you wouldn't do it [08/16][16:55:15] <marvellosity> yes [08/16][16:55:31] <marvellosity> and it's taken until now for it to become even remotely clear it's a possibility [08/16][16:55:45] <Laggy> meta is clouding people's judgement [08/16][16:55:59] <Laggy> mafia meta, not individual meta [08/16][16:56:06] <marvellosity> yeah. [08/16][16:56:20] <marvellosity> like [08/16][16:56:29] <marvellosity> if 3 people pile on to scum [08/16][16:56:40] <marvellosity> how are town supposed to determine the difference between the scum and the other townies?? [08/16][16:56:49] <marvellosity> if there's 2 on and 3 on, what's the difference [08/16][16:57:10] <marvellosity> *if 3 scum pile on to a candidate [08/16][16:57:17] <Laggy> yea [08/16][16:57:30] <Laggy> i think you have to look at their other arguments to make sense of t heir vote [08/16][16:57:39] <marvellosity> mm [08/16][16:57:46] <Laggy> not just the vote count itself [08/16][16:57:46] <marvellosity> it's why DYH's vote on risk was so weak [08/16][16:57:51] <marvellosity> but so was sloosh's [08/16][16:57:57] <marvellosity> this is why [08/16][16:57:58] <Laggy> and mine, to be fair [08/16][16:57:59] <marvellosity> townies [08/16][16:58:01] <marvellosity> need to not play [08/16][16:58:03] <marvellosity> fucking scummily [08/16][16:58:26] <marvellosity> that's at least as important as benig able to find scum imo [08/16][16:58:29] <Laggy> yea [08/16][16:58:36] <Laggy> risk really did fucking NOTHING [08/16][16:58:42] <Laggy> and then gets pissed when people call him scum [08/16][16:58:42] <marvellosity> meh [08/16][16:58:54] <marvellosity> i think i have more exposure to him [08/16][16:58:55] <marvellosity> remember day 1 [08/16][16:59:01] <marvellosity> when i made the "people who don't care" post [08/16][16:59:05] <Laggy> yea [08/16][16:59:09] <marvellosity> it was prplhz/CL, not prplhz/CL/risk [08/16][16:59:10] <Laggy> and it was just prpl and CL [08/16][16:59:12] <marvellosity> mm [08/16][16:59:23] <marvellosity> like [08/16][16:59:28] <marvellosity> I thought his case on CL was a huge towntell [08/16][16:59:36] <marvellosity> but i don't blame you at all for not seeing the same [08/16][17:00:23] <Laggy> it reminded me of mattchew in I Can't Believe [08/16][17:00:30] <Laggy> how he was just sheeping all of scib's cases [08/16][17:00:43] <Laggy> well, making a case on the same person [08/16][17:00:49] <marvellosity> yea don't do that [08/16][17:00:52] <marvellosity> i used to do that [08/16][17:00:59] <marvellosity> like [08/16][17:01:13] <marvellosity> "person A did x and person A was scum, person B is doing x so person B is scum" [08/16][17:01:22] <marvellosity> it's monumentally misleading [08/16][17:01:28] <Laggy> yea i know [08/16][17:01:34] <marvellosity> took me ages to learn it [08/16][17:01:44] <marvellosity> made quite a few mistakes like that [08/16][17:02:24] <Laggy> the one thing that made me actually second guess myself about risk was [08/16][17:02:34] <Laggy> reading through his late-game filter in bureacracy [08/16][17:02:42] <Laggy> he actually started trying [08/16][17:02:46] <Laggy> once he was under suspicion [08/16][17:03:03] <Laggy> in this game he just got angry [08/16][17:03:11] <marvellosity> hm [08/16][17:03:15] <marvellosity> i don't think that's much of a tell [08/16][17:03:31] <marvellosity> the trick with risk [08/16][17:03:35] <marvellosity> and it's superhard [08/16][17:03:46] <marvellosity> is to work out if he's at all invested even when it seems like he isn't [08/16][17:04:21] <Laggy> maybe [08/16][17:04:31] <Laggy> hard to judge that having never played with them though [08/16][17:04:34] <Laggy> or even know what to look for [08/16][17:04:35] <marvellosity> yup [08/16][17:04:37] <marvellosity> yup [08/16][17:04:46] <marvellosity> dunno if you saw in QT [08/16][17:04:56] <marvellosity> where i said that the risk lynch made me suspicious of DYH/sloosh [08/16][17:05:06] <marvellosity> i.e. the two players who DO know what risk can be like. [08/16][17:05:36] <Laggy> yea [08/16][17:05:37] <Laggy> i saw [08/16][17:05:44] <marvellosity> yea [08/16][17:05:45] <marvellosity> that was why [08/16][17:06:15] <marvellosity> do you know who voted prplhz day 2 that dind't day 1 by any chance? [08/16][17:06:49] <Laggy> i deleted my notes that had my vote-count [08/16][17:06:55] <Laggy> i can check though [08/16][17:07:34] <marvellosity> only if it's not too much effort [08/16][17:09:22] <Laggy> D1: DYH, you, me, forumite, risk.... D2: CL, Keirathi, sciberbia, sloosh, DYH, Mordanis, ShiaoPi [08/16][17:10:08] <Laggy> so scib, CL, sloosh, mord, shaopi all new...risk not on the vote that time [08/16][17:10:12] <marvellosity> mm [08/16][17:10:30] <marvellosity> ugh [08/16][17:10:52] <Laggy> yea doesnt help much [08/16][17:11:11] <Laggy> 4 of the 5 people who switched at still alive :p [08/16][17:11:44] <marvellosity> the interesting thing is where the tipping point is [08/16][17:11:54] <marvellosity> unfortunately that requieres rereading the thread [08/16][17:12:05] <marvellosity> i.e. where prplhz was a clear candidate for death [08/16][17:12:26] <Laggy> well risk voted prplhz like a few hours after the day started [08/16][17:12:45] <Laggy> then unvoted, and CL voted prpl [08/16][17:13:00] <Laggy> then DYH made his case on CL and 3'ish people voted for CL [08/16][17:13:13] <Laggy> then scib made the counter case, and I started the voting back on prpl [08/16][17:14:12] <marvellosity> so if DYH is scum, it's likely CL is town [08/16][17:14:30] <Laggy> fair assumption [08/16][17:14:38] <Laggy> it was a pretty big case that was meant to get him lynched [08/16][17:14:50] <Laggy> although DYH did give it up *kind* of easily [08/16][17:15:03] <Laggy> but scib is pretty convincing, so I dunno for sure [08/16][17:15:31] <Laggy> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15798886 DYH case [08/16][17:15:56] <marvellosity> thing is [08/16][17:16:01] <marvellosity> it's a really strong point he makes [08/16][17:16:03] <marvellosity> on the sheeping [08/16][17:16:23] <Laggy> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15811636 scib's follow-up that gets everyone back onto prpl [08/16][17:17:29] <marvellosity> yea [08/16][17:17:33] <marvellosity> it's why i've been confused on CL [08/16][17:17:38] <marvellosity> scib makes some good points in his defence [08/16][17:17:42] <Laggy> yea [08/16][17:19:43] <Laggy> sometimes i felt like scib and I were sharing a brain in this game :o [08/16][17:19:56] <Laggy> he would always say exactly what I was thinking [08/16][17:26:16] <marvellosity> VE thinks all 3 were on foru day 1 [08/16][17:26:43] <Laggy> its quite possible [08/16][17:27:33] <marvellosity> [23:23:55] <VisceraEyes> So they were probably all on Forumite [08/16][17:27:34] <marvellosity> [23:23:57] <VisceraEyes> Is my guess [08/16][17:27:34] <marvellosity> [23:24:04] <marvellosity> hmm [08/16][17:27:34] <marvellosity> [23:24:08] <VisceraEyes> Mislynch right? [08/16][17:27:34] <marvellosity> [23:24:10] <VisceraEyes> Forumite town? [08/16][17:27:34] <marvellosity> [23:24:16] <marvellosity> yea [08/16][17:27:36] <marvellosity> [23:24:21] <VisceraEyes> Then yeah [08/16][17:27:38] <marvellosity> [23:24:32] <VisceraEyes> They piled on Forumite to save prplhz [08/16][17:27:40] <marvellosity> [23:24:41] <VisceraEyes> Occams bro [08/16][17:30:23] <Laggy> prplhz was leading with 6 votes to 4 on Forumite...then Hiro unvoted prpl and switched to Forumite, and ShiaoPi unvoted Mord and switched to Forumite [08/16][17:30:29] <Laggy> then the Mord/CL thing [08/16][17:30:34] <Laggy> made it 7/5 [08/16][17:30:53] <Laggy> err wait [08/16][17:31:40] <marvellosity> fuck me [08/16][17:31:41] <marvellosity> what was hiro doing [08/16][17:31:42] <marvellosity> god damnit [08/16][17:32:11] <Laggy> 6-3 when Hiro switched, which made it 5-4..then shiaopi made it 5-5 [08/16][17:32:19] <Laggy> yea, no clue [08/16][17:32:25] <marvellosity> 5-4 [08/16][17:32:33] <marvellosity> ugh [08/16][17:33:17] <marvellosity> that CL thing [08/16][17:33:20] <marvellosity> is fucking everything up [08/16][17:33:29] <Laggy> haha [08/16][17:33:48] <Laggy> its so fucking dumb for either alignment [08/16][17:34:15] <Laggy> that its hard to get a read on it [08/16][17:34:15] <marvellosity> the fact we're discussing it [08/16][17:34:18] <marvellosity> gives you the scum motivation for it [08/16][17:35:17] <Laggy> yea, its easy to say "oh scum would never be that bad and call attention to himself" like scib said [08/16][17:35:38] <Laggy> but if you know everyone is going to dismiss it because its so dumb, then you could pull it off [08/16][17:35:44] <Laggy> WIFOM at its finest [08/16][17:35:49] <marvellosity> yes [08/16][17:35:52] <marvellosity> in LIII [08/16][17:36:05] <marvellosity> Risen last-minute voteswitched between two candidates [08/16][17:36:12] <marvellosity> causing the 2nd candidate to get lynched not the first [08/16][17:36:18] <marvellosity> both candidates were town [08/16][17:36:20] <marvellosity> Risen was scum [08/16][17:36:38] <Laggy> haha [08/16][17:36:47] <marvellosity> yeah [08/16][17:36:49] <Laggy> yea someone mentioned that [08/16][17:37:33] <Laggy> i want to play scum [08/16][17:37:38] <Laggy> and just do all the most obvious things [08/16][17:37:45] <Laggy> and see how long it takes me to get lynched [08/16][17:37:54] <Laggy> might not work since i'm a relative newbie though [08/16][17:38:00] <marvellosity> haha yea :p [08/16][17:38:04] <marvellosity> VE thinks CL is town [08/16][17:38:05] <Laggy> and people wouldn't be expecting me to not be dumb [08/16][17:38:07] <marvellosity> didn't buy into scib's defence [08/16][17:38:08] <marvellosity> er [08/16][17:38:10] <marvellosity> CL is scum [08/16][17:38:41] <Laggy> reading its filter, its really, really easy to make a case for him being scum [08/16][17:38:45] <Laggy> his filter* [08/16][17:39:30] <marvellosity> yes [08/16][17:39:31] <marvellosity> super ez, [08/16][17:39:54] <Laggy> his WIFOM posts about the NKs really boggled me too [08/16][17:41:44] <marvellosity> so if we take away the mindboggling stuff [08/16][17:41:46] <marvellosity> we're still left [08/16][17:41:49] <marvellosity> with his bizarrre sheeping [08/16][17:41:52] <marvellosity> and his total about turn on prplhz [08/16][17:41:54] <marvellosity> right? [08/16][17:41:59] <Laggy> yes [08/16][17:42:05] <marvellosity> i mean [08/16][17:42:07] <marvellosity> that's FACTS [08/16][17:42:27] <marvellosity> like [08/16][17:42:35] <marvellosity> his job was to save prplhz day 1 and bus him day 2 [08/16][17:44:10] <Laggy> and he didn't vote for risk on d3, he left his vote on Mordanis P.S. sorry CL we were a bit harsh on you
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
[08/16][17:04:46] <marvellosity> dunno if you saw in QT [08/16][17:04:56] <marvellosity> where i said that the risk lynch made me suspicious of DYH/sloosh [08/16][17:05:06] <marvellosity> i.e. the two players who DO know what risk can be like.
obviously i didn't put enough weight on to this >.<
edit: and yes, DYH - we realised the voting pattern. But we thought it possible all 3 scum were on Forumite. Prevailing TL meta for that not to be the case is too strong though apparently ;p
edit edit: DoYouHasPerson was signed in when posted 08-07-2012 02:48 PM ET (US) Initial read: marvelosity is blue
nicely done, DYH.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On August 19 2012 03:39 DoYouHas wrote: I was really floundering on what to do day 3. I didn't know who I wanted to go after. That is why I jumped on your wagon so quickly Keirathi. You gave me an out that also got rid of risk for us. Win-win.
yes, this was a scumtell for you. you had a couple (you had a bizarre post on CL at some point). sadly, so did shiaopi/CL :<
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The absolutely biggest scum tell from me should have been my meta. If anyone bothered to look at my posting from past games it would have been stupidly obvious that I don't play town like I played this game. The only thing I did this game that looked anything like my town play was my case on CL.
Am I correct in saying what kept people from suspecting me was that case and the fact that I almost got prplhz killed day1? That was an accident btw. I asked him if I could go after him. He said bring it on. Then he almost didn't defend himself. All he had to do was post and my case against him would have been so easy to back off of. But then he didn't start posting and I was stuck bussing him.
E: I really lucked out with having slOosh on my team. He is the person I have played the most with, and we have butted heads a few times. He would have called me out on my meta day 1.
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Vatican City State135 Posts
Well I was dead for most of the game, but
1) I've never really played with you properly before (I remember offing you as scum in LIV I think) 2) the REST of the game was very inactive 3) related to 2), other people were doing scummy things and being inactive too
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DYH saying that Keirathi's point on risk was good should have gotten him lynched. But honestly the game was over way before that.
Assuming that CL would play in a certain way was really bad on my part; I should have read his games before talking about him but I kind of wanted to say something as I knew I wouldnt be able to post after that. Sorry to everyone about having to leave. It wasnt something I expected to happen.
Town really never did anything, but I think scum played well in sniping the blues and avoid suspicion for pretty much the entire game. Time to read the QTs :/
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man, Marv, you really need to get your shit together with this Hydra account.
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Vatican City State135 Posts
why? I don't give a fuck
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On August 19 2012 05:42 DoYouHas wrote: The absolutely biggest scum tell from me should have been my meta. If anyone bothered to look at my posting from past games it would have been stupidly obvious that I don't play town like I played this game. The only thing I did this game that looked anything like my town play was my case on CL.
Am I correct in saying what kept people from suspecting me was that case and the fact that I almost got prplhz killed day1? That was an accident btw. I asked him if I could go after him. He said bring it on. Then he almost didn't defend himself. All he had to do was post and my case against him would have been so easy to back off of. But then he didn't start posting and I was stuck bussing him.
E: I really lucked out with having slOosh on my team. He is the person I have played the most with, and we have butted heads a few times. He would have called me out on my meta day 1.
Part of the reason I backed off prplhz was because of how passive you were :/
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
GG, damn I was sooo on the wrong track and doing scummy stuff all the time.... I played such a terrible game...I should probably just stop playing, feels like I am getting worse from each game to the next
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Vatican City State135 Posts
On August 19 2012 06:23 ShiaoPi wrote:GG, damn I was sooo on the wrong track and doing scummy stuff all the time.... I played such a terrible game...I should probably just stop playing, feels like I am getting worse from each game to the next
naw, you live and learn. carry on brah <3
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gg all. Some thoughts:
Sloosh I was suspicious of because he was so under the radar. I felt like nobody was spending much time in his filter because he didn't give us a good reason to (kudos to him). I thought the death of me was great evidence against him once risk.nuke and HiroPro flipped town. Because I don't know why scum would have wanted me dead if sloosh was also town. Like I'd have just been leading town in all the wrong directions if I were alive D3 and sloosh was town. And they definitely risked a doc save to kill me.
DYH I never saw coming. I dont think any of us did, so we really didn't have a chance. He was one of the few players I didn't do any meta research on. Perhaps that would have helped... Reasons I thought he was town: Nearly getting prplhz lynched D1 His whole thought-of-in-the-shower case against CL Being willing to back off a decent case on CL to kill prplhz
I think I constantly overvalue the correctness of people's reads and the amount of help they were in lynching known scum towards determining their alignment. Really gotta stop doing that..
Also @keirathi I noticed your sharing-brain comment in irc with marv. I had the exact same feeling lol. Read the obs qt where I had a dream in which you were a mod confirmed super mason. Playing town with you was quite fun. Felt like I always had someone to confirm what I was thinking or let me know if I was misguided. Hope to do it again sometime
And @marv Well you were killed partially as a blue snipe so hopefully you can forgive me for my analysis. Hope to play town with you sometime where you make it past N1. I always think "damn if only marv were alive he'd know what to do right now". Probably why u get killed in the first place lol
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
ha, thanks scib, i hope to see you in a day 2 as well. Although the obsQT makes it pretty clear I didn't know what to do! ^_^
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On August 19 2012 07:46 sciberbia wrote: Because I don't know why scum would have wanted me dead if sloosh was also town. Like I'd have just been leading town in all the wrong directions if I were alive D3 and sloosh was town. And they definitely risked a doc save to kill me.
It's hard to say this game because slOosh was scum, but in a hypothetical situation in which you were town *AND* sloosh was town at the end of day2, I really see no reason to kill slOosh over you. You were active, pushing reads, defending cases, and generally taking control over the thread. Scum can't afford someone with that much presence to stay alive, even if he has been off on his reads a bit. You would have eventually gotten it right, and had enough town cred to follow through with it, whereas sloosh might not have.
E: Holy run-on sentence, batman.
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Marv hit: I had a blue read on you because of 3 things. First was that you participated a fair bit in the discussion of how blues were going to work that game. Second was that you were talking about possibilities around watchers when everyone else seemed more interested in trackers and the innocent child thing. Third was that you seemed to be flying under the radar after the blue discussion. Vaguely pro-town but nothing really to make you stand out. Since I had been gone for ~3 months I didn't know that you were a good scum hunter or a vet worth noting. Not doing that research almost had that hit backfire in my face.
Scib hit: We hit you because you were the biggest threat. Nobody was on the right track, but night 2 was going to be our only real chance to kill you (because we figured you were protected N1). The only person with enough influence and momentum to get the thread out of the quagmire it had become was you. And if you happened to make a case against either me or slOosh, or even if you went after someone we didn't want lynched, you had too much town cred to be argued against safely. I had hoped that the mislynch of Forumite would slow you down and keep you from taking control but that wasn't the case.
Keirathi hit: You were the only townie left in the game who seemed like you could still be objective with your scum hunting. Hence, the only real threat left. Also, the carelessness of CL and Mord's play along with how they participated in the blue discussion at the beginning had me cross them off the list of possible docs. (At the end of day 1 my blue reads were Marv for watcher, shiaopi/Keirathi/risk for doc.) Shiaopi I figured was less likely that Keirathi because he was not as cautious or as invested. Keirathi was holding himself apart from most of the cases and drama in the thread, coming in with a few self assured comments and a vote here and there. He was clearly invested in keeping the town moving forward, but also avoided drawing attention to himself. After risk died, Keirathi was the clear choice.
P.S. You will note that a lot of this isn't in the mafia QT. These were my reasons for each hit, (and I had a pretty large say in it) whether or not I needed to use them to convince slOosh/prplhz.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
DYH was the guy who sent in the hits each night and had the final say on who did and didn't get hit-- these reasons seem smart, and helped his team win. I think scum did a good job with their hits this game.
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
mm. definitely going to have to be more careful when i'm blue in the future. his reasons for sniping me seem quite legit.
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Yea the NK's and RB usage (or lack thereof) really could not have been any better even if scum were handed the full role list and knew all our night actions in advance. Overall DYH, I think your's has been the best scum performance I have witnessed so far. Congrats on your win.
If I ever roll scum, I want DYH on my team. Potential hosts, please take note.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5954 Posts
Some thoughts regarding the game.
The main problem was imo that there were few people who successfully established themselves as townie and the few who did (marv, scib come to mind) got shot at first chance, having several scummy-looking players (me, CL, Mord) did not really help as we were pretty much just at each others throats allowing scum to fly by under the radar as sloosh did or even establish themselves as townie like DYH did. Just gave way too much scummy material for actual scum to work on cases :D
The other big aspect of town's loss was inactivtiy. As soon as the more active posters were dead the thread was just crawling along.
So in conclusion I would say, DYH's great play+inactivity+stupid scummy townies = easy scum victory! ^^
In Retrospect I would really know how to establish yourself as townie, I look at least a bit scummy in every game I play (only rolled VT) thus far and it kind of gets annoying that I am not improving on that regard. Any tips?
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
I can't remember details, but at least one of your cases was disastrously weak. Keirathi and I were kinda boggled you used Mordanis' verbosity against him when it's totally alignment-null for him and you know that.
Also there was something about the day 1 lynch voting where you didn't come off too well I think.
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I was suspicious of sloosh because he was so far out of his townmeta but honestly I just forgot about him as I was dealing with first things first. I probably gave DYH to much towncred for his prplhz. Was dead sure he was town untill he sheeped keirathis case just like that. But I was sure CL was scum and I was basing my read on DYH on the false assumption that CL was mafa.
I thought CL + Shia was the scumteam. If Shia flipped town: CL + Sloosh If CL flipped town: Shia + DYH
I was pretty sure scum was controlling the town. It seemed the most plausible scenario since the town was handling situations like idiots. I was pretty shocked when it turned out to be the two lurkers.
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Sorry for not being present last cycle, didn't anticipate the trip would interfere with mafia play. Any excuse for lack of internet etc. were all genuine stuff that I would have had as town, I guess it just meshed well with the inactivity of town.
I feel like me and DYH would have been pretty easy to pick out if people re-read in light of flips and with some objectivity. For instance, when prplhz flipped scum no one really looked into D1, where I pushed scib's Forumite case which helped the mislynch. Risk's lynch didn't really make sense and even when he flipped town no one gave regard for his end post read on CL. In an especially small game like this where filter reading would have been easy, no one actually seemed to do so, and Keirathi's flip should have shown that risk's lynch was townie led but scum supported.
But yes inactivity is killer and this is why - I was never really pressured to say something that would show my contradictions. Not that you couldn't go through my filter and see how I have no direction with my reads, but it is doesn't stand out as much. Honestly if scib hadn't died N2 then we would be in huge trouble because we would have been dragged into the spotlight and our words more closely scrutinized.
Good play by DYH, even though he was uncertain / shy early on he really got involved and comfortable with his role.
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GG scum!
Funny, I had Sloosh and DYH down as townies the whole game
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