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On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it.
Marvel, could you explain this? I had an early scumread and said so a few times, definetly not spamming the thread about it. I also said I preferred to keep the reason to myself for the moment. What was wrong about that? Why did you want me to either reveal evidence early D1 or stop with light pressure on a random townie?
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On August 08 2012 20:21 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Marvel, could you explain this? I had an early scumread and said so a few times, definetly not spamming the thread about it. I also said I preferred to keep the reason to myself for the moment. What was wrong about that? Why did you want me to either reveal evidence early D1 or stop with light pressure on a random townie?
Because calling someone scum without reasoning or recourse to defend themselves isn't productive, and it isn't "pressure" - there's no pressure, because it's meaningless. I left you to it the first couple of times you did it, but when you start pointing others to your 'read' (prplhz), still without explanation, then it should be called out.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
any of you care to comment on my case on mord?
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On August 08 2012 20:47 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 20:21 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Marvel, could you explain this? I had an early scumread and said so a few times, definetly not spamming the thread about it. I also said I preferred to keep the reason to myself for the moment. What was wrong about that? Why did you want me to either reveal evidence early D1 or stop with light pressure on a random townie? Because calling someone scum without reasoning or recourse to defend themselves isn't productive, and it isn't "pressure" - there's no pressure, because it's meaningless. I left you to it the first couple of times you did it, but when you start pointing others to your 'read' (prplhz), still without explanation, then it should be called out.
I asked one player, prplhz, because I wanted a confirmation if he saw the same thing I saw. What's wrong with saying "I think X looks bad", and wait with clarifying why? I'll do it eventually, of course, but why right Now?
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did you read? I didn't say 'right now'. I only pressed you on it when you kept repeating the accusation without anything else to back it up. Again, it's not pressure if it's not done in a style that can elicit any sort of response other than "lol ok".
Shiao: yes I will, and hopefully a couple of others when I grab an hour this afternoon.
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On August 08 2012 21:06 ShiaoPi wrote:
any of you care to comment on my case on mord? I like your case on mord, he posts lots of fluff and no substance. I'll have to take a closer look when I get to my computer.
On August 08 2012 21:25 marvellosity wrote:
did you read? I didn't say 'right now'. I only pressed you on it when you kept repeating the accusation without anything else to back it up. Again, it's not pressure if it's not done in a style that can elicit any sort of response other than "lol ok".
Shiao: yes I will, and hopefully a couple of others when I grab an hour this afternoon.
I know it wasn't a very effective pressure, I had allready admitted that, but I must have had a reason for still going on. You called me out as if you wanted confirmation if I had something, so that you could deal with it now. I didn't see any harm in my action, so there was no reason for you to stop me on behalf of a random townie, that's what feels wrong to me.
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I disagree, casting pointless suspicion about is worth putting a stop to. If it feels wrong to you, tough titties. For your viewing pleasure, a quote of mine from movie mafia:
On June 25 2012 09:01 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 08:58 slOosh wrote:
Let's not WIFOM at who we would shoot as scum. It won't produce anything substantial and allows scum to blend in and derails thread from what is truly important: hunting and lynching scum. Since there is finally some thread activity going on, I'll be happy to sit down and think carefully what the heck is going on. Probulous I'm still unhappy about your play this game, starting with the oversight in your Zentor vote. Of course this could be an honest mistake so I'm gonna sit on it for now. Still waiting for von Klaust as well. If you ignore me I'ma hound you down. You need to stop doing this. You keep asking people about Probulous and telling him you're suspicious, but all you're willing to say is that you didn't like his Zentor vote oversight. Either make a case or don't. Stop expecting others to answer for you, or telling Probulous he's suspicious with no way to make a defence as you won't actually make a case.
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On August 08 2012 22:06 marvellosity wrote:I disagree, casting pointless suspicion about is worth putting a stop to. If it feels wrong to you, tough titties. For your viewing pleasure, a quote of mine from movie mafia: Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 09:01 marvellosity wrote:On June 25 2012 08:58 slOosh wrote:
Let's not WIFOM at who we would shoot as scum. It won't produce anything substantial and allows scum to blend in and derails thread from what is truly important: hunting and lynching scum. Since there is finally some thread activity going on, I'll be happy to sit down and think carefully what the heck is going on. Probulous I'm still unhappy about your play this game, starting with the oversight in your Zentor vote. Of course this could be an honest mistake so I'm gonna sit on it for now. Still waiting for von Klaust as well. If you ignore me I'ma hound you down. You need to stop doing this. You keep asking people about Probulous and telling him you're suspicious, but all you're willing to say is that you didn't like his Zentor vote oversight. Either make a case or don't. Stop expecting others to answer for you, or telling Probulous he's suspicious with no way to make a defence as you won't actually make a case. Okay, you have me convinced. There was nothing nefarious about you telling me to stop calling people scum without explanation.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 10:08 sciberbia wrote:OK I've made brief notes on everybody. Here are the people I find sketchiest so far: ShiaopiShow nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote:
Well well, let's get started!
Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
I agree with Forumite that this post seems off. Shiaopi is no vet, yet he starts off the thread with this bravado, confidence, and authority. It just doesn't seem to fit with the more reserved Shiaopi I remember from NMM XIV. I see this post as a conscious attempt to look bold, which fits in more with scum goals than town goals. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:39 ShiaoPi wrote:
@HiroPro:
Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 06:28 ShiaoPi wrote:
@risk:
It's more the general concept of Hiro to use a tracker claim as means of confirming town that I am against, not against claiming in general, but scum can easily counterclaim so it won't work that way. Shiaopi's analysis of HiroPro's innocent child proposal really doesn't sit well with me. He objects to the innocent child plan on the grounds that the tracker wouldn't even be confirmed town because scum might counterclaim. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:36 ShiaoPi wrote:
While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
This is the part I have an issue with. He admits that it would actually be suboptimal for scum to counterclaim, but says that you should consider the possibility anyway. This suggests to me that he was just nitpicking the plan for the sake of nitpicking the plan. Why would townie Shiaopi object to a plan on the grounds that scum will play suboptimally and defeat the plan? Shouldn't he be assuming scum plays optimally? I'd really like other people's opinions on this point, because I might be biased by my own view of the innocent child proposal. prplhzShow nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote:
Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? This post seems sketchy. He is basically just criticizing Fortumite's play for the sake of criticizing Fortumite's play. This isn't constructive in any way -- prplhz doesn't say or even directly imply that Fortumite is scummy. ForumiteI'm surprised nobody is calling out Forumite as I write this. His wishy/washy suspicions on Shiaopi are clearly sketchy: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote:
I think ShiaoPi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote:
I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! ShiaoPi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 ShiaoPi wrote:
Well well, let's get started!
Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. On August 08 2012 07:00 Forumite wrote:
On ShiaoPi, I wanted to see if my scumsenses were working after my break with a quick read. No, I´m not convinced he´s scum. Seems like he makes a falsely confident read, voices a falsely confident case, and then backs off when marv and prplhz call him out on it.
I'd appreciate some thoughts on any of the points I brought up.
Spoilered is scib's post on Shiao/prplhz/Forumite.
On ShiaoPi. I don't read too much into the apparent 'bravado' in his first post. Moreover, my read on his post saying he didn't like discussing policy is that it was simply a dumb post, not a scummy post. People aren't going to stop discussing policy/setup because someone (further - someone who is not relatively a 'vet' in this game) expressed their displeasure at it. The only actual results of the post are that a) he looks bad when other people want to talk about shit like that which they always always do, b) he looks bad when inevitably he gets drawn into conversations about setup/policy. What's the scumplan with the post? It's ludicrous to imagine he thought he could stop town talking with it (!?), so rather it reads to me as a poorly thought through "let's get the fuck on with this guys!"
On prplhz. At the moment doesn't seem to give a shit about town. Will elaborate a little in a post a bit later.
On Foru. Will hopefully respond to the longer case fairly shortly after I've gone through Mordanis again. Briefly here, a point about Forumite calling Shiao out so early is that it puts his head above the parapet to be examined. Doesn't seem like a worthwhile thing to do as scum. My memory of Foru's scumplay from WoF is that he simply blended in.
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ShiaoPi's Mordanis case:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 19:00 ShiaoPi wrote:I just read sciberbia's case on Forumite, while it has merit, I am unsure of him being scum. I can also see the early scumread on me simply as an early attempt to get some discussion/pressure going, he succeeded in that regard for sure. Regarding the logical inconsistencies they are a concern, but for now I would just like to keep an eye on him. @Custos I would really like you to contribute more. All you have done until now is pointing out a rather silly (read almost nonexistent) contradiction in one of sciberbia's posts and voicing some concern regarding me and prphlz. Mind elaborating why? Currently I am having an issue with Mordanis:Take a look at his opening post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 03:34 Mordanis wrote:
I actually disagree that talking policy early on is bad. It is only bad when the policy talk tells scum how to get off free. "We will only lynch active players" tells scum that they can get one or two players to the late-game with as little content to hold against them as possible. On a similar note, it's probably not a good idea to discuss your heuristics for finding scum until you find examples of them in people's play. If you start talking about them right now, unless you list 173 of them, scum probably will actively avoid fitting your heuristic, thus ruining your chance of finding scum. Discussing when/how to use novel mechanics is simply a rational thing to do early in the game, though. Personally, I haven't had too much time to think about when/how to use the double lynch mechanic, but I can say that in my experience it happens fairly often that neither candidate up for lynching D1 is scum, and going from 9 town 3 scum D1 to 6 town 3 scum D2 would be pretty brutal. In short, I am strongly against D1 multi-lynching unless something very convincing happens to change my mind. Aside from that, the only other bit of policy I have to offer is that we should probably wait until night to discuss power roles, NKs, etc. During the day, all that really matters (in the absence of Day-vigis) is town/mafia. Daytime is for hunting scum, not deciding power role strategy. Enough with the policy now, I'm off to find scum. He is against cutting policy talk short and proceeds to do a good amount of it. The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid. But then he goes back to say that policytalk is useful based on the ground that there is nothing else to be done. This entire paragraph is extremely redundant and makes me think of him trying to boost the look of his filter by seemingly contributing in a circular logic pattern. His next two posts are hitting Custos, he questions why he quotes that part of scib. + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:
-snip-
Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? He is again extremely wishy-washy. Just look at it, first he critisizes scib for claiming alignment (which is pretty much a nulltell in my opinion), but then he also "does not see" how that could be called out. When Hiro says that it is a nulltell and differentiates between alignment claim and VT claim Mord responds like this: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote:
He is still implying that he's VT though, or else just asking for scum to kill him. When someone claims town, they are trying to make other people perceive them as VT. Why else would you claim town? Now he suddenly is much more concerned about claiming alignment (which he again links to VT). Flip-flopping at its best. Also on his latest post: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote:
Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming. Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff. I feel that Mord has a higher chance of flipping scum than Forumite does, so ##vote: Mordanis
Hopefully you can flesh/further explain somethings for me Shiao. Firstly, Mordanis can be pretty damn wishy-washy as either alignment. Why do you think it's alignment-indicative here?
You write this - "The next sentence marks Mord as anti-lurker, but then he says that policy-talk should not be done, since it gives scum a pattern to avoid" which was in reference to Mordanis talking about not revealing heuristics for scumreads. Scumcatching heuristics is not the same as policy talk, why are you conflating the two?
With the stuff talking about Costa Luna's quote of scib's town/VT claiming stuff. This kinda stuff is just made for making people walk around in circles and look confused/contradictory. So I will talk about this in a later post with regards to CL, rather than Mordanis.
I take particular issue with your final paragraph:
Keep in mind that Forumite had already accused me much earlier than Mord posted. He only gives his opinion on it when Hiro asked him specifialy to do so. Mord sees no reason to suspect me, but hadn't he said that he also dislikes cutting policy short? Shouldn't he agree with Forumite's accusation based on that? Furthermore examine the rest of the post after the part I bolded. It is actually pure fluff.
Forumite accusing you was not a major thread event, and doesn't particularly require everyone to make mention of it. Hiro asked him about it... and he answered? How is this a point? Further, the fact that Mordanis doesn't mind talking about policy does not automatically equate to the idea that he should find anyone who doesn't like talking about policy scummy. Disagree != scum.
Overall I think the case is pretty bad. I'm not sure atm if maliciously so.
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Clarification about my opinion of Mordanis
Big posts but very few, talking about me, possible VT-claim and policy, with a lot of fluff. Overall lots of text but next to no content, which looks bad. His post about "funnily enough" asking CL feels off somehow. Mordanis needs to shape up, or at least post more.
I'm anxiosly awaiting the time when CL gets back.
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On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote:my case on Forumite. Sorry for the length, but I think it's worth a thorough read. His read on shiaopi (the logical inconsistencies) 1) Why didn't he explain his initial read on shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote:
I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote:
I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote:
Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them. I find it suspicious that Forumite tried to provide townie motivation for his behavior, but it didn't really make sense. 2) What exactly did Forumite find scummy about shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote:
Well well, let's get started!
Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. When I asked Forumite to explain precisely why he has changed his mind about shiaopi, Forumite said this: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:
Current read:
Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. What I gather from this is that: -- Forumite's main beef with shiaopi was shiaopi's stance on policy discussion -- Forumite later decided to null this suspicion because shiaopi showed willingness to discuss the setup This logic is dubious to me, but what I find really suspicious is that Forumite continued to talk about his bold, red scumread on shiaopi even after shiaopi made some posts about setup and policy. The timing doesn't match up. Here are the relevant posts in chronological order: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote:
I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 00:51 shiaopi wrote:
@scib:
I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches.
In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1
wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK.
Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side?
On August 08 2012 00:55 shiaopi wrote:
Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch. On August 08 2012 00:58 shiaopi wrote:
Ah so another doublelynch instead of a single one. Makes sense now. On August 08 2012 05:39 shiaopi wrote:
@HiroPro:
Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 05:54 shiaopi wrote:So your scenario would not differ much from a standard claim and therefore it should be examined and then judged based on the situation and not just accepted (like child claim would be), would be too easy for scum then. Too bad I thought you found a way to circumvent the gamerules to modconfirm a tracker  On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:21 shiaopi wrote:
But stilll there is no need for him to claim. Just with his presence it would let our doc work much easier as scum cannot do too many RB's with his potential check. Do not see the need to lynch both claimers, just evaluate on the claims independently,I dislike both options , whether it is giving it a freepass or lynching. On August 08 2012 06:36 shiaopi wrote:
While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
On the other hand I could see it working out for the better if he claims as early as you suggest. He would leave scum fishing for the doc between the other townies. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote:
Well well, let's get started!
Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. ... On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:
Current read:
Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. To recap 1) shiaopi is aganist discussing setup/policy 2) Forumite finds shiaopi very suspicious for not discussing setup/policy 3) shiaopi discusses a good deal of setup/policy 4) Forumite still finds shiaopi quite suspicious ... 5) Forumite no longer finds shiaopi suspicious because of the posts shiaopi made in phase (3) I trust you can all see the inconsistency here. In Forumite's explanation to me on why he has retracted his suspicions on shiaopi, Forumite references that "shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post". But this did not stop Forumite from telling prplhz all about how shiaopi is scum. And I don't believe for a second that Forumite wasn't paying close attention to shiaopi's posts after he stuck his neck out and accused shiaopi. I see a significant contradiction here. 3) Why exactly did Forumite change his mind on shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +This post took him 28 minuts to come up with after I asked him to more fully explain why he changed his opinion on shiaopi: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:
Current read:
Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done.
That´s about it, I´m back to square one on shiaopi. OK so let me break this down: 1) shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup -- I discussed my issues with this logic previously 2) Forumite knew he wasn't getting anywhere -- This means nothing to me 3) Forumite didn't have much to start with and got conflicting reads -- That's not what it sounded like when he told prplhz how shiaopi is scum 4) The vets didn't agree This last point about the vets I find especially bad. Forumite references marv, HiroPro, and prplhz marvOn August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. This is all marv says on shiaopi. Marv doesn't actually give any read on shiaopi whatsoever. Marv merely expresses displeasure at Forumite's behavior. This does not count as 'disagreeing with the case' HiroProOn August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote:
(directed at Mordanis)
What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote:
Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way. prplhzOn August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote:
Too weak?
Callign shiaopi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? prplhz does think that Forumite's case on shiaopi is bad, but like Keirathi said, why on earth is Forumite taking prplhz's opinion into account here? First of all, prplhz has done nothing to convince anyone that he is town. And secondly, prplhz doesn't even explain why the case on shiaopi is bad. Put yourself in Forumite's shoes: 1) You have a scumread on shiaopi that you feel good enough about to announce to the thread 2) some vet comes into the thread and calls you an idiot but doesn't justify himself 3) You conclude that you must have been wrong about your scumread??? It just doesn't follow. See his thoughts on prplhz here: On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote:
On prplhz
Right now I´m in danger of falling into the OMGUS-trap, because the only thing I´ve gotten from him is the greeting and him calling me out. prplhz calling me out makes me think there´s something wrong with MY play, which makes prplhz a nulltell. I have a hard time believing that this would be any townie's reaction to essentially being called an idiot with no justification given. Other scummy points the way in which he discredits his own reads + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote:
On me
HiroPro called me out too.
I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
I find this response suspicious. It looks like he is trying to garner sympathy and not inflate the issue. I don't know why a townie would call his own cases bad and cast doubt on his own scumhunting ability. he seems scared of marv, prplhz, me + Show Spoiler +Not sure if all of this really fits under the term buddying, but I get the feeling that he is playing a bit scared of influential players: marv-- Forumite explains his read on shiaopi only when demanded by marv -- "I agree with marvellosity, not tracking nightkills make the Tracker and Watcher too weak." -- changes his read on shiaopi based on opinion of vet marv prplhzHis interactions with prplhz seem really odd. It's like he worships prplhz. I looked through Forumite's D1 of Wheel of Fortune, where Forumite was scum and spent some time defending prplhz, so I find this especially suspicious. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. -- backs off his read on shiaopi after scolded by prplhz -- concludes that he himself must be playing bad because prplhz thinks he is scummy meOn August 08 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:
@sciberbia
Fair enough, we´ve talked too much about the innocent child and need to scumhunt. Any tips on where to start? On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote:
On me
HiroPro called me out too.
I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
It's actually remarkable how much of his filter I take issue with considering we are like 15 hours into D1. As I've been writing this case, I have a pretty good feeling about it. The only thing that really makes me hesitate is it seems almost too obvious, and that no scum would be so obvious on D1. Forumite doesn't seem like a bad/noob player, and I think he made it to the end of Wheel of Fortune as scum. I really want opinions on this case. If you are online, please post your thoughts. I think Forumite is more likely scum than not, and he is far and away my top scum candidate at this point, so ##Vote Forumite
There are some pretty good things about this case. The strongest thing about the whole case is contained within the first section.
On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote:
Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger.
scib comments thusly: "If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them."
Totally valid. There are two contradicting stories. Forumite has repeatedly alluded to creating 'pressure' on ShiaoPi with his early accusation. But there's no pressure in such an empty accusation - see Shiao's repsonse just there. But Forumite replies to him that he's more likely to scumslip if he doesn't think there's any danger. So... why point the finger at him? That 100% makes someone more vigilant. There's a big contradiction in wanting to create pressure and thinking someone will scumslip if there is... no pressure!
Further, I agree with scib's point about calling your own cases/confidence bad. There's no town motivation for wanting to have lower credibility with your reads, but it does provide an excuse for bad reads later (e.g. 'accidentally' mislynching a townie at some point).
I dislike that Forumite has replied several times in thread but has not in fact addressed sciberbia's case against him. In fact his reply was to *slOosh*, who merely passed a little bit of comment on it, but nothing back at scib. Why?
A couple of things on the flip side: I don't particularly agree with the whole vet stuff. At that point it's kinda a lose-lose situation. Foru could have gone the other way and pursued his post 1 read despite fairly influential townies being quite sceptical. In that case he would have been accused of blindly tunnelling with zero support.
Like I mentioned a couple of posts ago, I don't know why scum Foru would make himself so noticeable like that when my read of his scumplay was blendy, and scib alludes to this too. Also the fact that Foru poked me about how I picked him up on it - why bring further thread exposure to the whole issue? Why bring me back to the topic?
Basically I'm getting conflicting reads from various things. The whole contradiction with pressure vs more likely to scumslip without danger is a big point to me, because it makes him sound like squirmy scum who can't quite explain himself. Against this being a good player drawing attention to himself where unnecessary.
People should be discussing scib's case/Forumite today please.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@marv:
While I agree that he can be wishy-washy regardless of alignment, I am having a lot more trouble with his discussion within his own post. I cannot quite word it the way I want to. It's like he is purposefully filling up his posts to make them harder to read and harder to understand. Also with a lot of filler which is not really beneficial at all.
I put heuristics and policytalk together as I would use them as synonyms in this case. Isn't the heuristic of scumreading, things you look out for when hunting scum? Policytalk is also a general way to establish a basic frame in which you think certain stuff is agreeable. Therefore I see it as contradiction of himself.
Regarding the final paragraph, maybe you can call it being self-centered much, but wasn't it the first accusation in thread? I would say it qualifies as a thread event. You can call me nitpicky if you want, but the accusation had been around for a while and when asked Mord replies with: "Wow, I totally did not see it coming?" That's more the general sentiment his post gives out. It gives me the feel that he is just acting surprised for the sake of it.
Furthermore mord says he has "no idea" how that could be scummy, when he says that cutting policy talk is bad. I would equal bad in this case as scummy/anti-town behaviour therefore my conclusion at the last paragraph.
Feel free to disregard the case if you want, as long as Mord does not show up and give me some scumhunting done by himself I am happy with the situation right now.
What would be your preferred lynch for the day then?
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I apologize friends, the moon is very demanding today (busy day at work). I want to make a nice post when I get some time. Just letting it be known that I am here and reading, I just haven't had the time to write a comprehensive post.
Also: Last night when I said ShiaoPi was triggering my scumdar, I meant Scib. Combination of tired brain + new names for me. This was just preliminary thinking before sleep. All opinions subject to change.
A couple things I can quickly address:
On August 08 2012 17:48 Forumite wrote:
Hey, Custos Luna! You are supposed to be a well-known Veteran, what are your reads on the game so far, apart from weak suspicion on prplhz and ShiaoPi?
So far, most reads are weak, and there doesn't seem to be much commital aside from a few players. That said:
I agree with Shiao's case on Mordanis. The biggest one that stands out is his last post
On August 08 2012 05:23 Mordanis wrote:
Right, and so saying that you shouldn't claim VT when you make a statement that's only purpose is to make yourself be perceived as VT seems illogical to me. Enough on that subject though ^^
Wow, Forumite's accusation came much earlier than I expected. All Shiao had done was come out as anti-policy, and then when pressed came out against lying and lurking. What in that is scummy, I have no idea. I think its clear that Forumite has some type of plan hatching, but until we find out what the plan is, his early accusation is sort of weightless. It could be an attempt to draw scum out or to force townie mistakes in order to mislynch. Or it could be something completely different, or even some amazing, irrefutable meta-read that paints Shiao as scum already. I don't see how that could be possible, but without further information, it's sort of a null read on Forumite for now. I think Forumite does deserve some extra attention, as I'm always kind of wary of people who are scheming.
Of all the players here, Mord is the most non-commital of them all. It's not even wishy-washy, it's just flat out grey space. He seems shocked that Forumite would create an accusation so early, but doesn't really do anything with it. So here is the moon's demand, mord:
Take a stand. Faith or heresy. Ignorance or truth. The moon does not like goblins.
##vote Mordanis
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Final post for now.
People who don't care about town:
prplhz. For your convenience, his posts so far:
On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum?
On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote:
Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do?
Posting to say he isn't reading, and casting doubt with seemingly no purpose. This is seriously pants. I'd be happier to vote for him if I hadn't seen him do similar as town before.
Custos Moony
This dude is worse. DoYouHas talked about him a little yesterday, and I agree with what he said. To expand:
On August 08 2012 01:40 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote:
Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf,
...
Thoughts on roleclaims:
Vanilla Townies
Please do not roleclaim without a very good reason.
This goes back to part of Shiao's case on Mordanis, where Mordanis tied himself up in knots a bit about it. However, I see the root cause of that particular problem as Luna's post here (of course sciberbia was the originator, but Luna is the one to highlight it). The problem I have with this post is that it's highlighting something without providing your own commentary on it. As DYH said, it's highlighting a contradiction that wasn't even really a contradiction. What it *is* doing is planting an idea into town, an idea that can't be fruitful, and then letting town shit itself up with it. I see strong scum motive in this.
On August 08 2012 04:31 Custos Luna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:CVSTO LVNA PRO SVVS ABVTOR GENITIVI PROVOCO ET AVT NOMEN SVVS MVTAVERIT AVT DABO SENSVS MEVS EI + Show Spoiler [Translation] +For his abuse of the genitive I am calling out Custo Luna, and he must either change his name or I will vote for him. + Show Spoiler +Not really, this was just a fun may to make my 4 years of latin worthwhile, and for anyone who's taken latin: Come on, Luna is a first declension noun. Easiest one to learn, and CL has it wrong in his name (Unless his name is just supposed to be two unrelated nouns, like JingleHell, VisceraEyes, and if you allow one word to be an adjective, BlazingHand, BloodyCobbler, etc, etc, etc.). This is therefore a joke. Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? I took 6 years of Latin, but it's been 5 years since I took my last class D= you should petition the mods to change it for me  Mostly just poking for now, I'm at work and reading when I can, so I'm making note of things I see. To everyone: stop discussing the possibilities of a D1 double lynch when you have 0 candidates. There is no point to posit the idea of killing 2 when there isn't even 1 on the table.
Again as DYH points out, everyone wasn't talking about a D1 double lynch at all. It was mentioned offhandedly as a bad idea a couple of times, but never seriously proposed in any way. In an empty filter, it's empty filler devoid of content for the sake of saying something. Further to note - he's at work and reading where he can, and just "poking". Excuse for not being substantial.
On August 08 2012 08:30 Custos Luna wrote:
Watcher tracks and Tracker watches. got it
Just pointless. If it was sandwiched between content, fine, but it isn't. The fact of the matter is that Custos was around the thread at at least three points yesterday (just check the timestamps of what I quoted) but when he's around he contributes nothing or even causes thread disruption.
On August 08 2012 13:18 Custos Luna wrote:
hmm, had less time than i anticipated tonight, can't do much heavy analysis.
shiaopi triggers my scumdar.
prplhz raised an eyebrow, but i keep looking
night - gotta go protect the moon
Second excuse for doing nothing.
In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target.
##Vote: Custos Luna
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
fuck me, I just got epically ninjad.
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@prplhz:
Where you at bro. You've made 2 posts and said absolutely nothing. Vaguely shedding suspicion on Forumite with questions, but not actually doing anything.
Whatcha feelin mang?
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On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote:HiroProShow nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote:
(directed at Mordanis)
What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote:
Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way.
mm, you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't agreeing with the case - there's no contradiction there (setup and policy aren't the same thing). What I was more interested in was that two of Forumite's main points were that ShiaoPi wasn't sharing his own thoughts and was trying to "shut down discussion". However, right after Forumite made his inital accusation, Shiao was willing to discuss the setup, which doesn't really fit with his points. I wanted to know whether that changed his read.
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On August 09 2012 00:31 marvellosity wrote:Final post for now. People who don't care about town: prplhz. For your convenience, his posts so far: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote:
Too weak?
Callign ShiaoPi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? Posting to say he isn't reading, and casting doubt with seemingly no purpose. This is seriously pants. I'd be happier to vote for him if I hadn't seen him do similar as town before.
Custos MoonyThis dude is worse. DoYouHas talked about him a little yesterday, and I agree with what he said. To expand: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:40 Custos Luna wrote:On August 08 2012 00:39 sciberbia wrote:
Hello everyone! Top of the morning to ya :D
First thing's first: I can truthfully report that I have rolled Dwarf,
...
Thoughts on roleclaims:
Vanilla Townies
Please do not roleclaim without a very good reason.
This goes back to part of Shiao's case on Mordanis, where Mordanis tied himself up in knots a bit about it. However, I see the root cause of that particular problem as Luna's post here (of course sciberbia was the originator, but Luna is the one to highlight it). The problem I have with this post is that it's highlighting something without providing your own commentary on it. As DYH said, it's highlighting a contradiction that wasn't even really a contradiction. What it *is* doing is planting an idea into town, an idea that can't be fruitful, and then letting town shit itself up with it. I see strong scum motive in this. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:31 Custos Luna wrote:On August 08 2012 04:26 Mordanis wrote:CVSTO LVNA PRO SVVS ABVTOR GENITIVI PROVOCO ET AVT NOMEN SVVS MVTAVERIT AVT DABO SENSVS MEVS EI + Show Spoiler [Translation] +For his abuse of the genitive I am calling out Custo Luna, and he must either change his name or I will vote for him. + Show Spoiler +Not really, this was just a fun may to make my 4 years of latin worthwhile, and for anyone who's taken latin: Come on, Luna is a first declension noun. Easiest one to learn, and CL has it wrong in his name (Unless his name is just supposed to be two unrelated nouns, like JingleHell, VisceraEyes, and if you allow one word to be an adjective, BlazingHand, BloodyCobbler, etc, etc, etc.). This is therefore a joke. Funnily enough, the first person I'd like to ask a question is Mr. CL himself. In a way, Sciberbia's post telling people not to claim VT doesn't make any sense, especially when he comes out and says that he's a dwarf. On the other hand though, I don't see why you called out that illogical passage. Are you implying that bad logic is scummy? Or are you just poking fun at him? I took 6 years of Latin, but it's been 5 years since I took my last class D= you should petition the mods to change it for me Mostly just poking for now, I'm at work and reading when I can, so I'm making note of things I see. To everyone: stop discussing the possibilities of a D1 double lynch when you have 0 candidates. There is no point to posit the idea of killing 2 when there isn't even 1 on the table. Again as DYH points out, everyone wasn't talking about a D1 double lynch at all. It was mentioned offhandedly as a bad idea a couple of times, but never seriously proposed in any way. In an empty filter, it's empty filler devoid of content for the sake of saying something. Further to note - he's at work and reading where he can, and just "poking". Excuse for not being substantial. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 08:30 Custos Luna wrote:
Watcher tracks and Tracker watches. got it Just pointless. If it was sandwiched between content, fine, but it isn't. The fact of the matter is that Custos was around the thread at at least three points yesterday (just check the timestamps of what I quoted) but when he's around he contributes nothing or even causes thread disruption. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 13:18 Custos Luna wrote:
hmm, had less time than i anticipated tonight, can't do much heavy analysis.
shiaopi triggers my scumdar.
prplhz raised an eyebrow, but i keep looking
night - gotta go protect the moon Second excuse for doing nothing. In short, Custos Luna doesn't give a shit about town. His original quote-post of scib's was unexplained with his own opinion and served to disrupt the thread by making people talk about an irrelevant non-contradiction. He excuses himself for scumhunting. He is currently my favourite lynch target. ##Vote: Custos Luna
My friend, I'm sad you think I don't care for town. The moon cares for nothing but the truth. But you are right, my content was...lacking, and I will try to address your points.
The logical fallicy I quoted from Scib was based on the first thing I learned playing Mafia many moons ago. A town player will feel no guilt or extra drive to appear as town. A scum player wants to point out that he's town. He wants to establish his innocense so he can fly under the radar.
In general, I am against deep policy discussion. It is very easy for scum to hide among that, and people will almost never agree on a blanket statement procedure. This is why I wanted to curb the double lynch discussion as it was a non-value add discussion at the time (especially Day 1, unless something out of the ordinary happens).
Now, a question for you.
On August 09 2012 00:16 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 15:52 sciberbia wrote:my case on Forumite. Sorry for the length, but I think it's worth a thorough read. His read on shiaopi (the logical inconsistencies) 1) Why didn't he explain his initial read on shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote:
I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 01:09 Forumite wrote:
I´d prefer not to discuss my read yet though, I hope you understand. On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote:
Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them. I find it suspicious that Forumite tried to provide townie motivation for his behavior, but it didn't really make sense. 2) What exactly did Forumite find scummy about shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote:
Well well, let's get started!
Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. When I asked Forumite to explain precisely why he has changed his mind about shiaopi, Forumite said this: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:
Current read:
Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. What I gather from this is that: -- Forumite's main beef with shiaopi was shiaopi's stance on policy discussion -- Forumite later decided to null this suspicion because shiaopi showed willingness to discuss the setup This logic is dubious to me, but what I find really suspicious is that Forumite continued to talk about his bold, red scumread on shiaopi even after shiaopi made some posts about setup and policy. The timing doesn't match up. Here are the relevant posts in chronological order: + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 00:46 Forumite wrote:
I think shiaopi is a Goblin
On August 08 2012 00:51 shiaopi wrote:
@scib:
I can agree with your thoughts about the roleclaims, but I have a question about the 1+ Lynches.
In your 2nd example you say that we can get an extralynch off if we lynch 2 instead of 1 at 6 vs 1
wouldn't it end still in 2 cycles as the night following a double mislynch would be 4-1. with the subsequent nighthit it gets to 3-1 and another mislynch ends the game as it will be 1-1 after the NK.
Just my maths being wrong or an oversight from your side?
On August 08 2012 00:55 shiaopi wrote:
Watcher/Tracker are probably weaker than DT. Speculating on them being in the possible setups does not get us far though imo. Maybe for balance purposes but as marv points out the watcher at least has 2 things to watch. On August 08 2012 00:58 shiaopi wrote:
Ah so another doublelynch instead of a single one. Makes sense now. On August 08 2012 05:39 shiaopi wrote:
@HiroPro:
Seeing as you seem to want a tracker to claim at some point, how do you plan to confirm him (like an innocent child would be)? I don't think we would get mod-confirmation for a tracker and therefore scum could fakeclaim just as well. Kind of defeats the entire purpose you had when you try to confirm a townie via claiming. On August 08 2012 05:54 shiaopi wrote:So your scenario would not differ much from a standard claim and therefore it should be examined and then judged based on the situation and not just accepted (like child claim would be), would be too easy for scum then. Too bad I thought you found a way to circumvent the gamerules to modconfirm a tracker On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. On August 08 2012 06:21 shiaopi wrote:
But stilll there is no need for him to claim. Just with his presence it would let our doc work much easier as scum cannot do too many RB's with his potential check. Do not see the need to lynch both claimers, just evaluate on the claims independently,I dislike both options , whether it is giving it a freepass or lynching. On August 08 2012 06:36 shiaopi wrote:
While it would be sub-optimal play for scum to trade 1 for 1 that early, you cannot dismiss the possibility.
On the other hand I could see it working out for the better if he claims as early as you suggest. He would leave scum fishing for the doc between the other townies. On August 08 2012 06:37 Forumite wrote:Okay. It´s based on the first post, quoted below: Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:08 shiaopi wrote:
Well well, let's get started!
Skip policytalking, we all know lurkers suck, you should not lie etc. etc. LiquidTomb's fallen demand justice, so let's go hammer some goblins.
When I read that I see someone who is rushing a greeting to show that he´s here, doesn´t say anything on his own views and wants to shut down policydiscussion. It´s the very first post of the game, and he wants us to NOT talk about the only thing there is to talk about. ... On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:
Current read:
Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. To recap 1) shiaopi is aganist discussing setup/policy 2) Forumite finds shiaopi very suspicious for not discussing setup/policy 3) shiaopi discusses a good deal of setup/policy 4) Forumite still finds shiaopi quite suspicious ... 5) Forumite no longer finds shiaopi suspicious because of the posts shiaopi made in phase (3) I trust you can all see the inconsistency here. In Forumite's explanation to me on why he has retracted his suspicions on shiaopi, Forumite references that "shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post". But this did not stop Forumite from telling prplhz all about how shiaopi is scum. And I don't believe for a second that Forumite wasn't paying close attention to shiaopi's posts after he stuck his neck out and accused shiaopi. I see a significant contradiction here. 3) Why exactly did Forumite change his mind on shiaopi? + Show Spoiler +This post took him 28 minuts to come up with after I asked him to more fully explain why he changed his opinion on shiaopi: On August 08 2012 11:11 Forumite wrote:
Current read:
Nullread. I´ve thrown out my initial scumread, it was probably just the one odd post, especially as shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup just a few posts after the initial incriminating post. I changed my mind because I knew I wasn´t getting anywhere. I didn´t have much to start with, and I got conflicting reads the first time I reexamined the case. That HiroPro, marvel and prplhz spoke up against me making accusations and/or against the actual case mattered a lot too, because I doubted my read if none of the other "veterans" agreed, and because I didn´t want to distract the thread more than I had allready done.
That´s about it, I´m back to square one on shiaopi. OK so let me break this down: 1) shiaopi showed that he was willing to discuss the setup -- I discussed my issues with this logic previously 2) Forumite knew he wasn't getting anywhere -- This means nothing to me 3) Forumite didn't have much to start with and got conflicting reads -- That's not what it sounded like when he told prplhz how shiaopi is scum 4) The vets didn't agree This last point about the vets I find especially bad. Forumite references marv, HiroPro, and prplhz marvOn August 08 2012 06:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. don't be insidious, explain why you find them scummy or shut up about it. This is all marv says on shiaopi. Marv doesn't actually give any read on shiaopi whatsoever. Marv merely expresses displeasure at Forumite's behavior. This does not count as 'disagreeing with the case' HiroProOn August 08 2012 05:00 HiroPro wrote:
(directed at Mordanis)
What do you think of Forumite witholding his reason for thinking Shiao is scum? On August 08 2012 06:49 HiroPro wrote:
Forumite, what do you make of the fact that Shiao has been willing to discuss the setup right after that? In the first quote, HiroPro casts some doubt on Forumite's behavior, but doesn't address shiaopi at all. In the second quote, unless I'm mistaken, HiroPro is actually supporting the idea that shiaopi is scum, by showing how shiaopi has contradicted his own distaste for discussing setup/policy. HiroPro certainly doesn't "disagree" with the case in any way. prplhzOn August 08 2012 06:43 prplhz wrote:
Too weak?
Callign shiaopi out for nothing and now you are actually complaining about the setup, in a game that already started. What exactly are you trying to do? prplhz does think that Forumite's case on shiaopi is bad, but like Keirathi said, why on earth is Forumite taking prplhz's opinion into account here? First of all, prplhz has done nothing to convince anyone that he is town. And secondly, prplhz doesn't even explain why the case on shiaopi is bad. Put yourself in Forumite's shoes: 1) You have a scumread on shiaopi that you feel good enough about to announce to the thread 2) some vet comes into the thread and calls you an idiot but doesn't justify himself 3) You conclude that you must have been wrong about your scumread??? It just doesn't follow. See his thoughts on prplhz here: On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote:
On prplhz
Right now I´m in danger of falling into the OMGUS-trap, because the only thing I´ve gotten from him is the greeting and him calling me out. prplhz calling me out makes me think there´s something wrong with MY play, which makes prplhz a nulltell. I have a hard time believing that this would be any townie's reaction to essentially being called an idiot with no justification given. Other scummy points the way in which he discredits his own reads + Show Spoiler +On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote:
On me
HiroPro called me out too.
I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
I find this response suspicious. It looks like he is trying to garner sympathy and not inflate the issue. I don't know why a townie would call his own cases bad and cast doubt on his own scumhunting ability. he seems scared of marv, prplhz, me + Show Spoiler +Not sure if all of this really fits under the term buddying, but I get the feeling that he is playing a bit scared of influential players: marv-- Forumite explains his read on shiaopi only when demanded by marv -- "I agree with marvellosity, not tracking nightkills make the Tracker and Watcher too weak." -- changes his read on shiaopi based on opinion of vet marv prplhzHis interactions with prplhz seem really odd. It's like he worships prplhz. I looked through Forumite's D1 of Wheel of Fortune, where Forumite was scum and spent some time defending prplhz, so I find this especially suspicious. On August 08 2012 06:07 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:38 prplhz wrote:
Hey didn't read thread yet can anybody tell me who is scum? Yay, prplhz! shiaopi looks like scum, just read the few introposts. -- backs off his read on shiaopi after scolded by prplhz -- concludes that he himself must be playing bad because prplhz thinks he is scummy meOn August 08 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:
@sciberbia
Fair enough, we´ve talked too much about the innocent child and need to scumhunt. Any tips on where to start? On August 08 2012 10:39 Forumite wrote:
On me
HiroPro called me out too.
I agree that my case was bad and that it makes me look bad, but I object to one thing; I´m always falsely confident of my bad reads.
It's actually remarkable how much of his filter I take issue with considering we are like 15 hours into D1. As I've been writing this case, I have a pretty good feeling about it. The only thing that really makes me hesitate is it seems almost too obvious, and that no scum would be so obvious on D1. Forumite doesn't seem like a bad/noob player, and I think he made it to the end of Wheel of Fortune as scum. I really want opinions on this case. If you are online, please post your thoughts. I think Forumite is more likely scum than not, and he is far and away my top scum candidate at this point, so ##Vote Forumite There are some pretty good things about this case. The strongest thing about the whole case is contained within the first section. Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:17 Forumite wrote:On August 08 2012 01:12 shiaopi wrote:
Well, I understand if you understand me not taking it serious at all then. That´s okay, you are more likely to scumslip if you don´t think there´s any danger. scib comments thusly: "If Forumite wanted shiaopi to feel a sense of security, why did Forumite voice his suspicions of shiaopi at all? I see no good explanation for why Forumite voiced his suspicions, but would not explain them."Totally valid. There are two contradicting stories. Forumite has repeatedly alluded to creating 'pressure' on ShiaoPi with his early accusation. But there's no pressure in such an empty accusation - see Shiao's repsonse just there. But Forumite replies to him that he's more likely to scumslip if he doesn't think there's any danger. So... why point the finger at him? That 100% makes someone more vigilant. There's a big contradiction in wanting to create pressure and thinking someone will scumslip if there is... no pressure! Further, I agree with scib's point about calling your own cases/confidence bad. There's no town motivation for wanting to have lower credibility with your reads, but it does provide an excuse for bad reads later (e.g. 'accidentally' mislynching a townie at some point). I dislike that Forumite has replied several times in thread but has not in fact addressed sciberbia's case against him. In fact his reply was to *slOosh*, who merely passed a little bit of comment on it, but nothing back at scib. Why? A couple of things on the flip side: I don't particularly agree with the whole vet stuff. At that point it's kinda a lose-lose situation. Foru could have gone the other way and pursued his post 1 read despite fairly influential townies being quite sceptical. In that case he would have been accused of blindly tunnelling with zero support. Like I mentioned a couple of posts ago, I don't know why scum Foru would make himself so noticeable like that when my read of his scumplay was blendy, and scib alludes to this too. Also the fact that Foru poked me about how I picked him up on it - why bring further thread exposure to the whole issue? Why bring me back to the topic? Basically I'm getting conflicting reads from various things. The whole contradiction with pressure vs more likely to scumslip without danger is a big point to me, because it makes him sound like squirmy scum who can't quite explain himself. Against this being a good player drawing attention to himself where unnecessary. People should be discussing scib's case/Forumite today please.
You make this nice post discussing Forumite and scib, and then request that everyone focus on these two as the candidates. However, then you make a post (further down on the same page) as a case against me and vote for me, completely contradicting your previous post. Why so flip-floppy?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
you misread: scib's case = Forumite, not scib AND forumite. i.e. I want people to be discussing Forumite (something you have avoided doing three times already on this page) but you were my current strongest read.
Clear?
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EPT
