|
Introduction
There is always a lot of discussion who the best SC2 players are. Some automated ELO rankings like TLPD (or sc2charts.net) provide an idea but are not satisfying. Based on KalWarkov`s Top30 Foreigner Ranking, I present you my Top30 Koreans.
The players should be ranked by their current overall skill.
To judge this, obviously recent results count more, but a GSL win doesnt put you on #1 automically and an established player who is slumping a bit won't fall too far.
I hope we can get a nice discussion going like in the other thread. I will regard your opinions for the next ranking. Please consider that the skill-gaps are pretty small and there is no real difference between 3-4 places (especially in the lower part).
I could give explanations why I placed the players in this order but I guess I wait for your critics.
Ranking
1.  TaeJa (Liquid)
2.  MC (SK)
3. MarineKing (Prime)
4.  DongRaeGu (MVP)
5. Squirtle (Startale)
6. Byun (Prime)
7. Seed (IM)
8. Symbol (TSL)
9. NesTea (IM)
10. CoCa (Slayers)
11. MVP (IM)
12. HerO (Liquid)
13. Curious (Startale)
14. Creator (Prime)
15. MMA (Slayers)
16. Leenock (FXO)
17. PartinG (Startale)
18. Oz (Fnatic)
19. Life (Startale)
20. Alicia (Slayers)
21. San (NS HoSeo)
22. Puzzle (Slayers)
23. Jjakji (NS HoSeo)
24. Genius (Slayers)
25. GuMiho (FXO)
26. Polt (TSL)
27. Sniper (MVP)
28. aLive (Fnatic)
29. YoDa (IM)
30. viOLet (-)
Teams: Slayers 5, IM 4, Startale 4, Prime 3, Liquid 2, MVP 2, TSL 2, Fnatic 2, FXO 2, NsHoseo 2, SK 1
 
|
I'd really like to see the explanations right away instead of waiting for them. At least the top 10..
You can say whatever you want but without using ELO or charts and not giving justification.. it's a strange way to go about it.
|
Yeah, to echo what probe said, I'd like to see explanations as well. I don't necessarily disagree with your ranking, but how can a commenter construct a valid refutation of your ranking if they are unsure how or why you ranked where you did in the first place?
|
I don't see any reason at all for Byun to be that high, after his losses in GSL and OSL he's been losing to randoms in every online qualifier he enters.
Also, where is Losira? He's been beasting in team leagues plus a good performance at the Summer Arena. ( I put him above every other player on IM except Seed atm )
I think First should be somewhere on there as well, his run through the lower bracket at the MLG Summer Arena was insane.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Summer/Arena
2-1 Snute
2-0 TOP
2-0 Puma
2-0 Ganzi
2-1 Alive
2-0 Losira
|
United States8476 Posts
Don't really know exactly what you're basing this on, but I'll comment:
Don't think Taeja deserves top spot just yet.
Would rate DRG above MKP. Both are slumping, but I would argue MKP slumping more.
I'm a Byun fan, but don't think he deserves 6th. Top 10 perhaps, but not 6th. Definitely below Symbol imo.
San too high even after OSL ro16. Can't justify him above Genius imo.
aLive, even thought I don't like him, should be a bit higher.
violet should be a lot higher imo.
You should make it a bit more clear what you weigh more, recent results or overall past results. Also, how much you weigh GSL/foreign LANS/online tournaments.
Also, should probably add a CBNC section.
|
United States8476 Posts
On August 02 2012 12:12 Dodgin wrote:I don't see any reason at all for Byun to be that high, after his losses in GSL and OSL he's been losing to randoms in every online qualifier he enters. Also, where is Losira? He's been beasting in team leagues plus a good performance at the Summer Arena. ( I put him above every other player on IM except Seed atm ) I think First should be somewhere on there as well, his run through the lower bracket at the MLG Summer Arena was insane. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Summer/Arena2-1 Snute 2-0 TOP 2-0 Puma 2-0 Ganzi 2-1 Alive 2-0 Losira
You forgot or conveniently missed 0-2 SortOf. =P Also, one LAN showing isn't really enough to justify top 30 imo.
|
On August 02 2012 12:22 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 12:12 Dodgin wrote:I don't see any reason at all for Byun to be that high, after his losses in GSL and OSL he's been losing to randoms in every online qualifier he enters. Also, where is Losira? He's been beasting in team leagues plus a good performance at the Summer Arena. ( I put him above every other player on IM except Seed atm ) I think First should be somewhere on there as well, his run through the lower bracket at the MLG Summer Arena was insane. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Summer/Arena2-1 Snute 2-0 TOP 2-0 Puma 2-0 Ganzi 2-1 Alive 2-0 Losira You forgot or conveniently missed 0-2 SortOf. =P Also, one LAN showing isn't really enough to justify top 30 imo.
I don't know his formula but if I was putting together a list of top 30 in recent times I would include a player who made a good run like that, It's hard to tell how much the OP favors old results and his own opinion on player skill compared to anything else since we didn't get an explanation yet.
Also another random comment, I also agree Taeja doesn't deserve the top spot yet. Lots of players ( and I mean lots ) have had similar streaks to him in the past, his recent performance is really impressive but not enough to just instantly put him at #1 as much as I like him. He is being hyped a lot more than he should be because he's on TL and getting a ton of attention.
|
Teams: Slayers 5, IM 4, Startale 4, Prime 3, Liquid 2, MVP 2, TSL 2, Fnatic 2, FXO 2, NsHoseo 2, SK 1
^ is the real tale of the teamleague right now. totally makes sense too.
also : 29. YoDa (IM) . Yes.
|
Seed should be way higher.
Win a GSL, get ranked 7?
|
I pretty much agree with Taeja and MC. They are currently at the very least top 3. But everything beyond that is wild speculation ^^
Also, Seed should probably be higher considering he just won the most prestigeous sc2 tournament...
On August 02 2012 12:24 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 12:22 NrGmonk wrote:On August 02 2012 12:12 Dodgin wrote:I don't see any reason at all for Byun to be that high, after his losses in GSL and OSL he's been losing to randoms in every online qualifier he enters. Also, where is Losira? He's been beasting in team leagues plus a good performance at the Summer Arena. ( I put him above every other player on IM except Seed atm ) I think First should be somewhere on there as well, his run through the lower bracket at the MLG Summer Arena was insane. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Summer/Arena2-1 Snute 2-0 TOP 2-0 Puma 2-0 Ganzi 2-1 Alive 2-0 Losira You forgot or conveniently missed 0-2 SortOf. =P Also, one LAN showing isn't really enough to justify top 30 imo. I don't know his formula but if I was putting together a list of top 30 in recent times I would include a player who made a good run like that, It's hard to tell how much the OP favors old results and his own opinion on player skill compared to anything else since we didn't get an explanation yet. Also another random comment, I also agree Taeja doesn't deserve the top spot yet. Lots of players ( and I mean lots ) have had similar streaks to him in the past, his recent performance is really impressive but not enough to just instantly put him at #1 as much as I like him. He is being hyped a lot more than he should be because he's on TL and getting a ton of attention.
Not sure if Taeja deserves the top spot but he is currently on an absurdly hot streak. Also the question remains, who has been more impressive recently.
|
ok, thanks for the input 
My judgement is mostly based on the actual results and other rankings. As I said more on recent results (how much can not really be measured), more on GSL and generally more on LAN, but I look for consistency and not single big wins. Like when Seed won GSL, that certainly moved him up in the ranking, but the players in the Ro8 were pretty close and I'm pretty sure we would have a different winner if we play that out twice.
I also don't say player XY will dominate because of his sick mechanics (or something like that) because I don't think I can really judge that.
The top4 is pretty clear for me (the players, not the order). These are the players who have performed well in almost all tournaments they entered in the last months. I didnt want to put Taeja on #1 at first, because during his insane run he hasnt met to many top class players, but I couldnt really justify anyone else.
Taeja barely lost to MC in GSL and then won MLG. His LAN nerve issues seem to be (mostly) over. His online domination (ESV, IPL, TSL qualifier) was scary since quite some time. I don't think he lacks something else to beat the other top players (as there are no really big skillgaps), so I expect him to be the favourite in nearly all of his next encounters.
MCs run is not far behind Taeja and MC has been a top player since over 1,5 years. If you look at his last results pages on TLPD you won't find a player with that record (except Taeja). Only big losses were vs Stephano and Nerchio. I guess judged a bit by playing style here. Well, MC get critized a lot that he doesnt have the best macro and mostly wins by great execution of his builds. I think as well that Taeja is the more wellrounded player and can improve even more. That gave him spot #1.
MKP and DRG were the top players 1-3 months ago. But both have fallen of a bit, especially DRG. Well he got to Ro4 in GSL, but a 3-2 vs Naniwa in ZvP isnt that impressing, he then got smashed by MC. MKP managed to qualify for OSL and win his group there. They may not be performing as well as other Top10 players, but they have tons of former results and will win someting again soon.
Squirtle has been one of the most consistent players in 2012 and also was recently successful with #2 in the ESV Grand Prix, IPL Fight Club and TSL. Not the caliber of the top4, but the first after.
Byun was considered a top player for a long time. If he wouldnt have been banned, we could have seen an earlier GSL run from him. This season he won both his groups, beat Nestea 3-0 and could have (should have) beaten Seed. He also qualified for OSL (which is a big feat alone) where he lost to San and Symbol (well Bo1). MKP and other praise him high, I believe in him, too.
Seed was the surprise winner this GSL. And his wins were convincing. Sadly he hasnt showed anything before or anything in other tournaments. Difficult to place him, I figured out he should be in the top10.
8,9,10 are 3 zergs. So 1 zerg in the top7, but 4 in the top10. But these 3 have different backstorys, Nestea was always there, Symbol fell off after being a big GSL favourite and Coca recently emerged (again). Symbol slaughtered people in GSTL, qualified for OSL, overall looked so solid that he will be a contender in the next events. Nestea seems to be stuck in a position where he never really disappoints but doesnt get to a final. I actually believe that this is just variance, but you can judge him pretty well off this (#9). Coca is another zerg GSTL hero, also qualified for OSL, beat MKP in fight club. I see him just still a tid-bit behind Symbol and Nestea.
Thats for the top10. Really difficult to give a justification cause its just my evaluation of their results. Maybe its better to compare 2-3 players if you disagree with my ranking.
|
Well, this is a subjective power ranking, so disagreements over who goes where are bound to happen.
It is pretty cool that you are doing this, and it can probably get pretty difficult to keep track of everything.
|
Regarding First:
Pretty much agree with NrGmonk here. One LAN isnt enough to justify top30. Especially when he only one players he beat is barely on this top30 (alive).
Also realize that top30 is really really good. There are so many good koreans who don't make the list.
Regarding LosirA:
Compared to First, LosirA is close to the top30, I thought about him. But his team league wins aren't enough. MLG was nothing special at all, he was off the radar for too long, is currently out of GSL and disappointed in other qualifiers recently.
Regarding Seed:
Well, I wrote a bit about that in my long post. Mainly the point is if you play out Ro8 GSL again you will most likely have another winner because they are so close in skill (Seed won 3-2 vs Symbol and Byun). Luck, build order wins, form of the day play a big role. I won't value Seeds 3 wins in Ro8,Ro4,final so much more than the tons of wins the players above got. Seed got no other results.
Regarding #1 (Taeja):
Who would you put at #1 and why? I posted my explanation. If you wanna switch MC and Taeja, than I don't have big problems there.
|
How can you put MKP up there? He's losing left and right to everyone. DRG lost to MC convincingly, but he still made it to the ro4. How far did MKP get?
I agree with taeja. He has the most solid matchups overall. MC barely beat him, but I don't know if his PvP (although to be fair it's a volatile matchup) and his PvZ (in which he lost badly to nerchio and stephano recently) can be considered on the same level.
|
On August 02 2012 13:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:
How can you put MKP up there? He's losing left and right to everyone. DRG lost to MC convincingly, but he still made it to the ro4. How far did MKP get?
I guess your expectations of MKP are a bit high. And maybe you only looking at the big broadcasted events. MKP lost in GSL to MC and Symbol, that can happen. In teamleagues he recently lost 3 Bo1.
But other than that he won the IPL5 qualifier a month ago and he qualified for OSL and won his group there.
|
I'm still really confused as to how you can put Coca so high on that list while he's in Code B and not put Losira on the top 30 who has been looking just as good as Coca recently. They have both been performing in team leagues, coca lost 0-2 in the ODT while Losira got 5th/6th at MLG. If you use old records, last year Losira was as impressive or more impressive considering he was a GSL and MLG silver medalist. They both had some time out of the spotlight due to different reasons and both came back around the same time. I have no idea how Sniper managed to get on your top 30 but Losira didn't, he lost in the ODT, lost in Code A to Hyun. He got some teamleague wins but that's about all I can find unless I'm missing something huge.
Anyway that's about it, I think your list is mostly really good.
In my opinion Losira is superior to Nestea in actual playing ability these days, he just needs to get back in the GSL circulation to show good results again.
|
supernova is like the most consistent terran player besides mvp. he like always makes it to ro8 and he isnt even on the top 30? granted i think his tvp is his best mu and tvz is weakest but he is still better then someone like polt in overall mathups in my opinion. he is though consistently in code s and has been for as long as i have been watching so that would be at least the past 4 gsls and he isnt even mentioned.....most underrate player in sc2 history because he never gets to the finals and doesnt go overseas and is only in gsl code s
edit: you also dont win gsl code s matches based on luck. there is no "luck factor" in gsl code s besides the ro32 who you get matched up against
|
United States97274 Posts
On August 02 2012 13:49 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 13:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:
How can you put MKP up there? He's losing left and right to everyone. DRG lost to MC convincingly, but he still made it to the ro4. How far did MKP get? I guess your expectations of MKP are a bit high. And maybe you only looking at the big broadcasted events. MKP lost in GSL to MC and Symbol, that can happen. In teamleagues he recently lost 3 Bo1. But other than that he won the IPL5 qualifier a month ago and he qualified for OSL and won his group there.
He also defeated Symbol yesterday in the WCG qualifiers.
I think your rankings are pretty solid. Of course there will always be some dispute since a lot of players in a range as big as 30 will be very close in skill and there will be bias from each individual reader.
|
|
|
Gumiho all kills slayers
Ranked 25 =/
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
some things i might not agree with, but it's very subjective and i think you did a fine effort ^.^
