a) As I explained earlier it wasn't that the bill was being hidden - it was so complex and underwent so many revisions that no-one had a clue as to what the details of the plan were. Obamacare is huge (906 pages according to Wikipedia), and the regulations that followed after are 5931 additional pages.
The complexity is so huge that the CBO recently revised the 10 year cost of Obamacare from an original $940 billion to $1.76 trillion - a huge disparity and demonstrates that the law's creators used a lot of gimmicks to hide what was really in the law from other law makers and the public.
b) Yes, the general big picture themes of what Obamacare does are very popular.
This news story has been debunked hundreds of times.
I suggest you stop reading misleading news articles and start reading the CBO reports, which is linked in the news article.
CBO and JCT now estimate that the insurance coverage provisions of the ACA will have a net cost of just under $1.1 trillion over the 2012–2021 period—about $50 billion less than the agencies’ March 2011 estimate for that 10-year period
So why is CBO claiming that the total cost is more? Because the new CBO projection calculates the COST of an extra year of Obamacare, but not the savings. Over the same time frame of the previous report the net effect is that Obamacare will cost $50 billion less than the previous estimate. For the extra year, 2022, CBO has only estimated the cost, but they haven't estimated the savings. But if we look at CBO's projections, CBO estimates Obamacare will save money, and while the cost increases rapidly, the saving increases even more rapidly. Read the report.
You're argument is like saying, "OMG Blizzard spend $500 million running the WoW servers in 2010, that's $400 million dollars up from 2005. Blizzard is BROKE," while completely ignoring the fact that Blizzard made, say $700 million dollars from WoW subscriptions. Just as you cannot make informed financial decisions by looking only at the expense, but not the revenue, you cannot make informed economic decisions by looking only at the costs, but not the savings.
No, my argument is that it will COST more than initially projected - about 2X more. You do realize that the revenue the government gets to pay for the cost comes from taxpayers, right?
No, it will not COST more than originally projected over the years of the original projection: 2012-2021.
The updated CBO cost figures are for 2013-2022, which excludes a year of nothing, and includes a year of operation.
You're comparing to different timepoints, so this comparison is invalid. I suggest you read the CBO report instead of watching Fox News.
And costs do not matter. Cost - savings is what matters, and cost - savings < 0, i.e. it reduces the deficit.
It is not cost - savings, it is cost - (revenue + savings) with revenue far exceeding the savings. So if the cost is 2X the taxes are basically 2X as well.
Let me correct my last post, Obamacare was sold to the public as a $900B over 10 year plan when the costs are ~ 2X that. The difference being gimmicks where different taxes and benefits are phased in over time. It is NOT accurate to say it is $900B over 10 years when *GOTCHA* the price tag doubles in a couple short years.
/sigh
I've been telling you to read the CBO report for the last 3 replies and you continue to demonstrate that you haven't.
The updated $1.76 trillion figure mentioned in the headline of your article is the gross cost of the insurance coverage provision from Table 2 of the report:
Gross Cost of Coverage Provisions (2012 - 2022, last number is total, numbers are in billions): 3 6 66 130 175 197 210 224 234 250 265 1,762
The cost in 2021 is $250 billion and the cost in 2022 is $265. So where's the massive doubling in costs? There is none, it's a misleading news article quoting and comparing unrelated numbers.
And about the $900 billion dollars over 10 years, I'm not sure where your getting that from but the net cost of the insurance coverage provisions is $1.1 trillion over the 10 years from 2012–2021 period (first page of the report, and cheaper than was previously estimated by the CBO).
There are many separate concepts that you and the article mix up, probably because it's standard Republican spin, and you're too lazy to read the source: 1) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,497 billion 2) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,083 billion 3) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,762 billion 4) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,252 billion 5) Net cost of entire Obamacare law 2012-2021 (i.e. the bottom line on the budget): $-210 billion
My guess is that your article is comparing a very old version of 2) with 3).
Obamacare was originally priced at $900B over 10 years. Now it is $1.7T over 10 years.
Yes, the years involved changed. But that doesn't change the fact that the program costs 2X what the public was first told it would cost by independent CBO pricing. If the problem is that the law phases in over time then the CBO should have found a way to account for that so that the public would not be mislead.
When someone says "$900B over 10 years" people assume a degree of linearity to that number - "about $90B a year" - and make a judgement call if they think the program is worth it or not.
But instead we have this situation where every year that goes by the 10 year price tag jumps by a very substantial amount until the program is fully implemented. By then it will be how much? $2.5T over 10 years?
At some price people will think Obamacare is too expensive. Obamacare was clearly designed to be deceptive about how much it would cost.
5) Government is not a business. There is no such thing as a "bottom line." What matters is the gross cost and if people think the benefits are worth the gross cost of not.
There is NO massive jump in cost. Here's the GROSS cost of the insurance coverage provision, from my last post. 2020: 234 2021: 250 2022: 265
So over 10 years ~ $2.5 Trillion like I just posted. That's the REAL cost once fully implemented.
From the CBO report:
"The ACA’s provisions related to insurance coverage are now projected to have a net cost of $1,252 billion over the 2012–2022 period (see Table 2, following the text); that amount represents a gross cost to the federal government of $1,762 billion, offset in part by $510 billion in receipts and other budgetary effects (primarily revenues from penalties and other sources)."
Gross cost is paid for with taxes. Gross cost is what matters. You do not buy SC2 based on the net cost to Blizzard. You buy it for the retail price. The retail price for Obamacare is (roughly) the gross cost.
You dodged almost all of my post. So where's that massive jump up in costs?
And where are you now pulling this $2.5 trillion number from?
$1762 billion is the GROSS cost of ONE provision of Obamacare it is not the NET cost of ALL of Obamacare.
The NET cost of ALL of Obamacare is what matters, not the gross cost of one provision. No, you don't buy SC2 based on the net cost to Blizzard, you buy it based on the net cost to you, including any benefits to your utility, that offsets the monetary cost. If you were just obsessed with gross costs, you may dismiss buying SC2 for say, $100, even though you might get more than $100 of value and fun out of SC2.
The gross cost is not paid for with taxes only, there are both spending cuts and taxes, and savings, and other economic effects.
Calling for Obamacare to be repealed because of an argument about costs is calling for a permanent increase in the deficit, in the range of $210 billion from 2012-2021.
This is getting ridiculous. Can we try to get on the same page? I'm working off of the CBO report: "Updated Estimates for the Insurance Coverage Provisions of the Affordable Care Act"
The only "net cost" line I see is gross cost less taxes. (Table 2 page 11).
If there's some other 'net cost' I'm not aware of let me know.
Otherwise I'm guessing that you are either taking gross cost and subtracting all the benefits you will get (the SC2 example) or taking the gross cost and subtracting all the taxes the government will receive (deficit example). Or both?
So why is CBO claiming that the total cost is more? Because the new CBO projection calculates the COST of an extra year of Obamacare, but not the savings. Over the same time frame of the previous report the net effect is that Obamacare will cost $50 billion less than the previous estimate. For the extra year, 2022, CBO has only estimated the cost, but they haven't estimated the savings. But if we look at CBO's projections, CBO estimates Obamacare will save money, and while the cost increases rapidly, the saving increases even more rapidly. Read the report.
You're argument is like saying, "OMG Blizzard spend $500 million running the WoW servers in 2010, that's $400 million dollars up from 2005. Blizzard is BROKE," while completely ignoring the fact that Blizzard made, say $700 million dollars from WoW subscriptions. Just as you cannot make informed financial decisions by looking only at the expense, but not the revenue, you cannot make informed economic decisions by looking only at the costs, but not the savings.
No, my argument is that it will COST more than initially projected - about 2X more. You do realize that the revenue the government gets to pay for the cost comes from taxpayers, right?
No, it will not COST more than originally projected over the years of the original projection: 2012-2021.
The updated CBO cost figures are for 2013-2022, which excludes a year of nothing, and includes a year of operation.
You're comparing to different timepoints, so this comparison is invalid. I suggest you read the CBO report instead of watching Fox News.
And costs do not matter. Cost - savings is what matters, and cost - savings < 0, i.e. it reduces the deficit.
It is not cost - savings, it is cost - (revenue + savings) with revenue far exceeding the savings. So if the cost is 2X the taxes are basically 2X as well.
Let me correct my last post, Obamacare was sold to the public as a $900B over 10 year plan when the costs are ~ 2X that. The difference being gimmicks where different taxes and benefits are phased in over time. It is NOT accurate to say it is $900B over 10 years when *GOTCHA* the price tag doubles in a couple short years.
/sigh
I've been telling you to read the CBO report for the last 3 replies and you continue to demonstrate that you haven't.
The updated $1.76 trillion figure mentioned in the headline of your article is the gross cost of the insurance coverage provision from Table 2 of the report:
Gross Cost of Coverage Provisions (2012 - 2022, last number is total, numbers are in billions): 3 6 66 130 175 197 210 224 234 250 265 1,762
The cost in 2021 is $250 billion and the cost in 2022 is $265. So where's the massive doubling in costs? There is none, it's a misleading news article quoting and comparing unrelated numbers.
And about the $900 billion dollars over 10 years, I'm not sure where your getting that from but the net cost of the insurance coverage provisions is $1.1 trillion over the 10 years from 2012–2021 period (first page of the report, and cheaper than was previously estimated by the CBO).
There are many separate concepts that you and the article mix up, probably because it's standard Republican spin, and you're too lazy to read the source: 1) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,497 billion 2) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,083 billion 3) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,762 billion 4) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,252 billion 5) Net cost of entire Obamacare law 2012-2021 (i.e. the bottom line on the budget): $-210 billion
Obamacare was originally priced at $900B over 10 years. Now it is $1.7T over 10 years.
Yes, the years involved changed. But that doesn't change the fact that the program costs 2X what the public was first told it would cost by independent CBO pricing. If the problem is that the law phases in over time then the CBO should have found a way to account for that so that the public would not be mislead.
When someone says "$900B over 10 years" people assume a degree of linearity to that number - "about $90B a year" - and make a judgement call if they think the program is worth it or not.
But instead we have this situation where every year that goes by the 10 year price tag jumps by a very substantial amount until the program is fully implemented. By then it will be how much? $2.5T over 10 years?
At some price people will think Obamacare is too expensive. Obamacare was clearly designed to be deceptive about how much it would cost.
5) Government is not a business. There is no such thing as a "bottom line." What matters is the gross cost and if people think the benefits are worth the gross cost of not.
There is NO massive jump in cost. Here's the GROSS cost of the insurance coverage provision, from my last post. 2020: 234 2021: 250 2022: 265
So over 10 years ~ $2.5 Trillion like I just posted. That's the REAL cost once fully implemented.
From the CBO report:
"The ACA’s provisions related to insurance coverage are now projected to have a net cost of $1,252 billion over the 2012–2022 period (see Table 2, following the text); that amount represents a gross cost to the federal government of $1,762 billion, offset in part by $510 billion in receipts and other budgetary effects (primarily revenues from penalties and other sources)."
Gross cost is paid for with taxes. Gross cost is what matters. You do not buy SC2 based on the net cost to Blizzard. You buy it for the retail price. The retail price for Obamacare is (roughly) the gross cost.
You dodged almost all of my post. So where's that massive jump up in costs?
And where are you now pulling this $2.5 trillion number from?
$1762 billion is the GROSS cost of ONE provision of Obamacare it is not the NET cost of ALL of Obamacare.
The NET cost of ALL of Obamacare is what matters, not the gross cost of one provision. No, you don't buy SC2 based on the net cost to Blizzard, you buy it based on the net cost to you, including any benefits to your utility, that offsets the monetary cost. If you were just obsessed with gross costs, you may dismiss buying SC2 for say, $100, even though you might get more than $100 of value and fun out of SC2.
The gross cost is not paid for with taxes only, there are both spending cuts and taxes, and savings, and other economic effects.
Calling for Obamacare to be repealed because of an argument about costs is calling for a permanent increase in the deficit, in the range of $210 billion from 2012-2021.
This is getting ridiculous. Can we try to get on the same page? I'm working off of the CBO report: "Updated Estimates for the Insurance Coverage Provisions of the Affordable Care Act"
The only "net cost" line I see is gross cost less taxes. (Table 2 page 11).
If there's some other 'net cost' I'm not aware of let me know.
Otherwise I'm guessing that you are either taking gross cost and subtracting all the benefits you will get (the SC2 example) or taking the gross cost and subtracting all the taxes the government will receive (deficit example). Or both?
I've already laid it all out, you're the one getting confused.
You talk about net costs and gross costs, but net cost and gross cost of what? Of the insurance coverage provision or of all of Obamacare? These two (insurance coverage provision and Obamacare) are different.
That CBO report you linked, which I cited before you, which is what you're talking about gives the gross/net costs of the insurance coverage provision, not the gross/net cost of all of Obamacare.
There are many separate concepts that you and the article mix up, probably because it's standard Republican spin, and you're too lazy to read the source: 1) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,497 billion 2) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,083 billion 3) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,762 billion 4) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,252 billion 5) Net cost of entire Obamacare law 2012-2021 (i.e. the bottom line on the budget): $-210 billion
No, my argument is that it will COST more than initially projected - about 2X more. You do realize that the revenue the government gets to pay for the cost comes from taxpayers, right?
No, it will not COST more than originally projected over the years of the original projection: 2012-2021.
The updated CBO cost figures are for 2013-2022, which excludes a year of nothing, and includes a year of operation.
You're comparing to different timepoints, so this comparison is invalid. I suggest you read the CBO report instead of watching Fox News.
And costs do not matter. Cost - savings is what matters, and cost - savings < 0, i.e. it reduces the deficit.
It is not cost - savings, it is cost - (revenue + savings) with revenue far exceeding the savings. So if the cost is 2X the taxes are basically 2X as well.
Let me correct my last post, Obamacare was sold to the public as a $900B over 10 year plan when the costs are ~ 2X that. The difference being gimmicks where different taxes and benefits are phased in over time. It is NOT accurate to say it is $900B over 10 years when *GOTCHA* the price tag doubles in a couple short years.
/sigh
I've been telling you to read the CBO report for the last 3 replies and you continue to demonstrate that you haven't.
The updated $1.76 trillion figure mentioned in the headline of your article is the gross cost of the insurance coverage provision from Table 2 of the report:
Gross Cost of Coverage Provisions (2012 - 2022, last number is total, numbers are in billions): 3 6 66 130 175 197 210 224 234 250 265 1,762
The cost in 2021 is $250 billion and the cost in 2022 is $265. So where's the massive doubling in costs? There is none, it's a misleading news article quoting and comparing unrelated numbers.
And about the $900 billion dollars over 10 years, I'm not sure where your getting that from but the net cost of the insurance coverage provisions is $1.1 trillion over the 10 years from 2012–2021 period (first page of the report, and cheaper than was previously estimated by the CBO).
There are many separate concepts that you and the article mix up, probably because it's standard Republican spin, and you're too lazy to read the source: 1) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,497 billion 2) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,083 billion 3) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,762 billion 4) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,252 billion 5) Net cost of entire Obamacare law 2012-2021 (i.e. the bottom line on the budget): $-210 billion
Obamacare was originally priced at $900B over 10 years. Now it is $1.7T over 10 years.
Yes, the years involved changed. But that doesn't change the fact that the program costs 2X what the public was first told it would cost by independent CBO pricing. If the problem is that the law phases in over time then the CBO should have found a way to account for that so that the public would not be mislead.
When someone says "$900B over 10 years" people assume a degree of linearity to that number - "about $90B a year" - and make a judgement call if they think the program is worth it or not.
But instead we have this situation where every year that goes by the 10 year price tag jumps by a very substantial amount until the program is fully implemented. By then it will be how much? $2.5T over 10 years?
At some price people will think Obamacare is too expensive. Obamacare was clearly designed to be deceptive about how much it would cost.
5) Government is not a business. There is no such thing as a "bottom line." What matters is the gross cost and if people think the benefits are worth the gross cost of not.
There is NO massive jump in cost. Here's the GROSS cost of the insurance coverage provision, from my last post. 2020: 234 2021: 250 2022: 265
So over 10 years ~ $2.5 Trillion like I just posted. That's the REAL cost once fully implemented.
From the CBO report:
"The ACA’s provisions related to insurance coverage are now projected to have a net cost of $1,252 billion over the 2012–2022 period (see Table 2, following the text); that amount represents a gross cost to the federal government of $1,762 billion, offset in part by $510 billion in receipts and other budgetary effects (primarily revenues from penalties and other sources)."
Gross cost is paid for with taxes. Gross cost is what matters. You do not buy SC2 based on the net cost to Blizzard. You buy it for the retail price. The retail price for Obamacare is (roughly) the gross cost.
You dodged almost all of my post. So where's that massive jump up in costs?
And where are you now pulling this $2.5 trillion number from?
$1762 billion is the GROSS cost of ONE provision of Obamacare it is not the NET cost of ALL of Obamacare.
The NET cost of ALL of Obamacare is what matters, not the gross cost of one provision. No, you don't buy SC2 based on the net cost to Blizzard, you buy it based on the net cost to you, including any benefits to your utility, that offsets the monetary cost. If you were just obsessed with gross costs, you may dismiss buying SC2 for say, $100, even though you might get more than $100 of value and fun out of SC2.
The gross cost is not paid for with taxes only, there are both spending cuts and taxes, and savings, and other economic effects.
Calling for Obamacare to be repealed because of an argument about costs is calling for a permanent increase in the deficit, in the range of $210 billion from 2012-2021.
This is getting ridiculous. Can we try to get on the same page? I'm working off of the CBO report: "Updated Estimates for the Insurance Coverage Provisions of the Affordable Care Act"
The only "net cost" line I see is gross cost less taxes. (Table 2 page 11).
If there's some other 'net cost' I'm not aware of let me know.
Otherwise I'm guessing that you are either taking gross cost and subtracting all the benefits you will get (the SC2 example) or taking the gross cost and subtracting all the taxes the government will receive (deficit example). Or both?
I've already laid it all out, you're the one getting confused.
You talk about net costs and gross costs, but net cost and gross cost of what? Of the insurance coverage provision or of all of Obamacare? These two (insurance coverage provision and Obamacare) are different.
That CBO report you linked, which I cited before you, which is what you're talking about gives the gross/net costs of the insurance coverage provision, not the gross/net cost of all of Obamacare.
There are many separate (concepts that you and the article mix up, probably because it's standard Republican spin, and you're too lazy to read the source: 1) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,497 billion 2) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2021: $1,083 billion 3) Gross cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,762 billion 4) Net cost of insurance coverage provisions 2012-2022: $1,252 billion 5) Net cost of entire Obamacare law 2012-2021 (i.e. the bottom line on the budget): $-210 billion
The first four numbers are from the report you just linked.
OK, lets see if we can't get our numbers in alignment. In table 1 (page 2) "CBO’s Analysis of the Major Health Care Legislation Enacted in March 2010"
The difference between Gross and Net is taxes.
The gross cost of insurance coverage provisions reflects additional spending for Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program, exchange subsidies and related spending, and tax credits for small employers. The net cost of insurance coverage provisions reflects that spending partly offset by penalties paid by uninsured individuals and employers, excise taxes on highpremium insurance plans, and other effects of the provisions on tax revenues and outlays.
So the net cost and gross cost to taxpayers is exactly the same. In this report that is listed (Table 1) as $1.445T between 2012 and 2022 (JUST THE INSURANCE PROVISION). Next, there are other budgetary considerations, correct?
Other provisions affecting direct spending -$732B
A few provisions of the legislation account for most of those projected savings: changes to Medicare’s payment rates in the fee-for-service sector and to Medicare Advantage plans; reductions in Medicaid and Medicare payments to “disproportionate share hospitals” (hospitals that treat a disproportionate number of low-income people); and establishment of a long-term care insurance program (the CLASS Act).
The bulk is basically shifting costs from the government to healthcare providers.
So I see three valid (if rough) "costs" you can use for a cost benefit analysis:
1) Gross cost at $1.445T then weigh against all benefits 2) Net taxes at $813B then weigh against all benefits less Medicare cuts 3) Net outlays at $604B then weigh against all benefits, less Medicare cuts and the value (or lack thereof) of deficit reduction vs additional taxes
Realistically all three versions of cost are the same it's just a matter of where you want to account for the different parts (cost or benefit column).
Or you can do a separate cost benefit analysis each for the $604B outlay for Obamacare, for the Medicare cuts and for the deficit reduction.
The Republican-led House of Representatives voted Wednesday to repeal President Obama’s health-care law, a symbolic gesture meant to highlight the GOP’s continued commitment to ending it despite a ruling from the U.S. Supreme Court that it is constitutional.
The vote to overturn the Affordable Care Act was 244 to 185, with five Democrats joining all Republicans who voted in supporting the law’s elimination.
It was the 33rd time Republicans have moved to repeal all or part of the law since the party took control of the House in January 2010, a now-familiar ritual the GOP said demonstrated the depth of its opposition. The repeal will not be passed by the Democratic-led Senate.
“I think this is an opportunity to save our economy,” said House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio). “For those who still support repealing this harmful health-care law, we’re giving our colleagues in the Senate another chance to heed the will of the American people. And for those who did not support repeal the last time, it’s a chance for our colleagues to reconsider.”
Democrats countered that Republicans were wasting time on a settled debate. They said the court ruling is a sign that it is time to move forward with the law’s implementation.
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) termed the vote “legislation to nowhere” that would result in a loss of protections for millions of Americans who will benefit from the law’s provisions, including free preventative care, removal of lifetime health-care spending caps and the requirement that insurance companies extend coverage to those with preexisting conditions.
Rep. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) called the vote the Republican’s “boil-the-bunny moment,” suggesting a GOP obsession similar to that displayed by a leading character in the 1980s movie Fatal Attraction.
In a sign that the politics surrounding the law may have shifted to a degree since the court ruling, a number of Republicans have been emphasizing the need to quickly shift to other ways to implement those popular aspects of the law, even as they insisted the measure must be repealed in its entirety.
“As a doctor I fully endorse -- and as a Republican I fully endorse -- the goals of the 2010 health law,” said New York Rep. Nan A.S. Hayworth (R), an ophthalmologist, on Tuesday. “Every American should have access to good, affordable health care and affordable, portable health insurance.”
In moderate New Hampshire, Rep. Charlie Bass (R) indicated he wanted to find a way to allow young adults to stay on their parents’ health insurance plans and to prevent insurance companies from barring those with pre-existing conditions from purchasing coverage.
Rep. Frank Guinta (R-N.H.) said he was “ready to sit down with my colleagues from both sides of the aisle and health care community members to amend this law as needed.”
“There are more voices now saying we’ve got to have something to replace the law with,” said one Republican House member, who asked not to be named so he could freely describe the thinking of GOP colleagues. “And some substance to the replacement, because that’s what they’re hearing back home, because that’s what the other side hits us on. There are stronger calls for that within the conference.”
Those arguments may reflect new poll numbers, which show the legislation is viewed less negatively than it was before the ruling.
In a Washington Post-ABC poll released this week, Americans were evenly split — 47 percent to 47 percent — on whether they supported or opposed the law. That represented a significant improvement for the law from April, when 39 percent backed it and 53 percent opposed it. And only one-third of respondents said they favored repealing the legislation in all or part.
GOP arguments for repeal have also shifted in the wake of the court ruling. Muted was the argument that requiring all Americans to obtain health insurance by 2014 was an unprecedented and unconstitutional overreach of federal power--a contention that proved the emotional grist behind the growth of the Tea Party in 2010.
Instead, Republicans emphasized their belief that the law has imposed economic uncertainty on American business, will cost more than government can afford and imposes a new tax on those who do not comply with the requirement to buy insurance.
With the election approaching, both parties used the vote as an opportunity to energize their own supporters--with Democrats stepping up their defense of the law even as Republicans characterized the vote as fulfilling an oft-stated promised of the 2010 mid-term election.
In Houston, Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney was booed before a Democratic-leaning crowd at the NAACP for promising to act to repeal the law if elected.
On the Hill, Democrats held a news conference with ordinary Americans who talked about benefits they receive from the law. The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee hit Republicans for voting to repeal a law that included, among its many provisions, items paring back health care perks for members of Congress.
Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.), a doctor who serves as chairman of the Republican Policy Committee, called that argument “typical demagoguery.” He said the public supports repeal, particularly now that the Supreme Court has ruled that the penalty imposed on those who do not buy insurance by 2014 is a tax.
“I don’t think there’s anyone on the other side who could say on the other side that if this had been billed as a tax, it would have passed,” he said. “The American people know this is a bad law and they know that the law needs to go away.”
WASHINGTON — Waging old battles with new zeal, the House passed a bill on Wednesday to repeal President Obama’s health care overhaul law less than two weeks after the Supreme Court upheld its major provisions as constitutional.
The bill was approved by a vote of 244 to 185, with five Democrats supporting repeal.
It has no chance of approval in the Senate and would face a veto from Mr. Obama if it ever got to him. But the House debate exposed the depth of passion over efforts to remake the health care system and suggested that the fight would continue next year, regardless of who wins the November elections for president and Congress.
House Republican leaders had many reasons for scheduling another vote to repeal the bill. They detest the 2010 law. They see it as a winning political issue for them. And they wanted to placate freshman Republicans like Representative Ben Quayle of Arizona, who described repeal of the health care law as a way to protect constituents from “the tyranny of government overreach.'’
The House has voted more than 30 times to repeal part or all of the 2010 law or to choke off funds needed for various provisions, including coverage of more than 30 million uninsured people.
Democrats said the House was wasting time that would have been better spent trying to create jobs.
But Representative Marsha Blackburn, Republican of Tennessee, said: “We’re going to keep at it until we get this legislation off the books. It was a bad bill, it has become a bad law.'’
In two days of House debate this week, both parties recycled talking points with minor changes to take account of the recent Supreme Court decision.
Democrats said the ruling vindicated their policies, including a requirement for most Americans to have health insurance, starting in 2014. And they said Mr. Obama needed to do a better job of defending the law, on which public opinion is still deeply divided.
The Supreme Court ruling fired up Republicans because, they said, it confirmed their argument that the law would impose a tax, not just a penalty, on people who go without health insurance.
“The court has spoken," said Representative Sandy Adams, Republican of Florida. “'Obamacare' is a tax.'’
Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, the House Democratic leader, described the law as one of the Democrats’ greatest achievements, making health care “a right, not a privilege, for all Americans.'’ But Republicans are still seething over how the law was adopted, without any Republican votes.
Representative John Fleming, Republican of Louisiana, said the health law “never would have gotten passed'’ if the penalty for violating the individual mandate had been openly acknowledged and advertised as a tax.
Democrats said the attacks were overblown. And they gleefully quoted statements by Mitt Romney supporting the idea of an individual mandate as part of the health plan adopted in Massachusetts in 2006, when he was governor.
Representative Sander M. Levin of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the Ways and Means Committee, said that “almost no one'’ would pay the federal penalty.
“The Congressional Budget Office estimates that only 1.4 percent of Americans will pay anything for refusing to purchase insurance,'’ Mr. Levin said. “That is just about identical to the percent of people in Massachusetts who have paid the penalty under Governor Romney’s health care law.'’
Contrary to Republican claims, Mr. Levin said the federal law should be viewed as a tax cut for middle-income people because it would provide tax credits to help them pay premiums for private health insurance, which often costs more than $15,000 a year for family coverage.
Mr. Romney, the Republicans’ likely presidential nominee, says he would take immediate action to roll back the federal law if he wins the White House.
Representative Charles B. Rangel, Democrat of New York, a strong supporter of the 2010 law, said members of his party had made “a lot of mistakes'’ in selling its benefits to the public. Faced with unrelenting Republican opposition, he said, “the administration has not made the case that uninsured people get health care'’ under the law.
The Supreme Court rejected claims that the individual mandate was justified by Congress’s power to regulate interstate commerce, but upheld it as a permissible exercise of Congress’s taxing power.
Republicans said that imposing a mandate by the tax power was scarier than using the commerce power. And they said it set a precedent by taxing “inactivity.'’
“How is this different from the government requiring Americans to purchase broccoli or pay a tax for not doing so?'’ asked Representative Dave Camp, Republican of Michigan and chairman of the Ways and Means Committee. “How is this different from the government requiring Americans to purchase low-fat foods or pay a tax as a means to fight the obesity epidemic?'’
Representative Daniel Lipinski, Democrat of Illinois, was a lonely voice pleading for a middle way. “We need a fix, not a repeal,'’ he said, asserting that Congress should keep “good parts of the law'’ and add stronger cost controls.
ON the subject of the Affordable Care Act — Obamacare, to reclaim the name critics have made into a slur — a number of fallacies seem to be congealing into accepted wisdom. Much of this is the result of unrelenting Republican propaganda and right-wing punditry, but it has gone largely unchallenged by gun-shy Democrats. The result is that voters are confronted with slogans and side issues — “It’s a tax!” “No, it’s a penalty!” — rather than a reality-based discussion. Let’s unpack a few of the most persistent myths.
Where will Epocolypse go when he realizes no one intelligent respects argumentation that amounts to little more polemic belligerence?
Where will Canadians go if American healthcare goes down the drain?
For a Canadian account of socialized medicine, read the following:
It rocks. As I have posted previously, my family and I have always recieved high quality care for very serious medical issues (heart problems, cancers, appendixes, tonseils, etc.), without ever having to worry about losing our home.
I don't give a shit what anyone in that completely uncontextualized (and probably stupid, given Epocalypse's previous posting history) interview says. Canadian healthcare is for the most part pretty fantastic, and guess what: It's also incredibly cost-effective! I have had nothing but fantastic personal experiences with our healthcare.
Where will Canadians go if American healthcare goes down the drain?
For a Canadian account of socialized medicine, read the following:
It rocks. As I have posted previously, my family and I have always recieved high quality care for very serious medical issues (heart problems, cancers, appendixes, tonseils, etc.), without ever having to worry about losing our home.
I don't give a shit what anyone in that completely uncontextualized (and probably stupid, given Epocalypse's previous posting history) interview says. Canadian healthcare is for the most part pretty fantastic, and guess what: It's also incredibly cost-effective! I have had nothing but fantastic personal experiences with our healthcare.
There's a Canadian perspective for you.
I've had great service from private healthcare as well and so have my friends who have gone down the the US. So have Canadian politicians. So why is it that American's don't come to Canada for care, while Canadians are sent by our government, or go independently, to get treatment in the US? Btw, US is far from privatized healthcare, however one still has the ability to pay for service while in Canada you don't.
Where will Canadians go if American healthcare goes down the drain?
For a Canadian account of socialized medicine, read the following:
It rocks. As I have posted previously, my family and I have always recieved high quality care for very serious medical issues (heart problems, cancers, appendixes, tonseils, etc.), without ever having to worry about losing our home.
I don't give a shit what anyone in that completely uncontextualized (and probably stupid, given Epocalypse's previous posting history) interview says. Canadian healthcare is for the most part pretty fantastic, and guess what: It's also incredibly cost-effective! I have had nothing but fantastic personal experiences with our healthcare.
There's a Canadian perspective for you.
I've had great service from private healthcare as well and so have my friends who have gone down the the US. So have Canadian politicians. So why is it that American's don't come to Canada for care, while Canadians are sent by our government, or go independently, to get treatment in the US? Btw, US is far from privatized healthcare, however one still has the ability to pay for service while in Canada you don't.
Americans DO go to Canada for healthcare... mostly for prescription drugs, of course.
And people fly to America usually for specific surgeries and treatments because we still have the leading doctors for many fields. It's not like they ONLY fly to America though.
And I am skeptical that you have had great private healthcare. I guess you don't have any pre-existing conditions. How much do you pay?
Where will Canadians go if American healthcare goes down the drain?
For a Canadian account of socialized medicine, read the following:
It rocks. As I have posted previously, my family and I have always recieved high quality care for very serious medical issues (heart problems, cancers, appendixes, tonseils, etc.), without ever having to worry about losing our home.
I don't give a shit what anyone in that completely uncontextualized (and probably stupid, given Epocalypse's previous posting history) interview says. Canadian healthcare is for the most part pretty fantastic, and guess what: It's also incredibly cost-effective! I have had nothing but fantastic personal experiences with our healthcare.
There's a Canadian perspective for you.
I've had great service from private healthcare as well and so have my friends who have gone down the the US. So have Canadian politicians. So why is it that American's don't come to Canada for care, while Canadians are sent by our government, or go independently, to get treatment in the US? Btw, US is far from privatized healthcare, however one still has the ability to pay for service while in Canada you don't.
Americans DO go to Canada for healthcare... mostly for prescription drugs, of course.
And people fly to America usually for specific surgeries and treatments because we still have the leading doctors for many fields. It's not like they ONLY fly to America though.
And I am skeptical that you have had great private healthcare. I guess you don't have any pre-existing conditions. How much do you pay?
They only go to Canada for Rx drugs that the government has not approved for use in America. Not because they are cheaper. It is a federal offense to import drugs that are already approved in America because they are cheaper.
Where will Canadians go if American healthcare goes down the drain?
For a Canadian account of socialized medicine, read the following:
It rocks. As I have posted previously, my family and I have always recieved high quality care for very serious medical issues (heart problems, cancers, appendixes, tonseils, etc.), without ever having to worry about losing our home.
I don't give a shit what anyone in that completely uncontextualized (and probably stupid, given Epocalypse's previous posting history) interview says. Canadian healthcare is for the most part pretty fantastic, and guess what: It's also incredibly cost-effective! I have had nothing but fantastic personal experiences with our healthcare.
There's a Canadian perspective for you.
I've had great service from private healthcare as well and so have my friends who have gone down the the US. So have Canadian politicians. So why is it that American's don't come to Canada for care, while Canadians are sent by our government, or go independently, to get treatment in the US? Btw, US is far from privatized healthcare, however one still has the ability to pay for service while in Canada you don't.
Americans DO go to Canada for healthcare... mostly for prescription drugs, of course.
And people fly to America usually for specific surgeries and treatments because we still have the leading doctors for many fields. It's not like they ONLY fly to America though.
And I am skeptical that you have had great private healthcare. I guess you don't have any pre-existing conditions. How much do you pay?
They only go to Canada for Rx drugs that the government has not approved for use in America. Not because they are cheaper. It is a federal offense to import drugs that are already approved in America because they are cheaper.
Uhh... yes people do smuggle their prescription drugs over the border because they are cheaper. Just because it's a federal offense doesn't mean people don't do it. It's not like they can reasonably enforce a law like that.
An incredible first-hand defense of Canadian Healthcare from a Republican woman that experienced it.
Her argument for why Pro-lifers should support Universal Healthcare is most compelling
The only concern I was left with was the fact that abortion was covered by the Universal Health Care, and I still believed that was wrong. But as I lived there, I began to discover I had been misled in that understanding as well. Abortion wasn’t pushed as the only option by virtue of it being covered. It was just one of the options, same as it was in the USA. In fact, the percentage rates of abortion are far lower in Canada than they are in the USA, where abortion is often not covered by insurance and can be much harder to get. In 2008 Canada had an abortion rate of 15.2 per 1000 women (In other countries with government health care that number is even lower), and the USA had an abortion rate of 20.8 abortions per 1000 women.
And suddenly I could see why that was the case. With Universal coverage, a mother pregnant unexpectedly would still have health care for her pregnancy and birth even if she was unemployed, had to quit her job, or lost her job. If she was informed that she had a special needs baby on the way, she could rest assured knowing in Canada her child’s health care needs would be covered. Whether your child needs therapy, medicines, a caregiver, a wheelchair, or repeated surgeries, it would be covered by the health care system. Here, you never heard of parents joining the army just so their child's "pre-existing" health care needs could be covered. In fact, when a special needs person becomes an adult in Canada, they are eligible for a personal care assistant covered by the government. We saw far more developmentally or physically disabled persons out and about in Canada, than I ever see here in the USA. They would be getting their groceries at the store, doing their business at the bank, and even working job, all with their personal care assistant alongside them, encouraging them and helping them when they needed it. When my sister came up to visit, she even commented on how visible special needs people were when the lady smiling and waving while clearing tables at the Taco Bell with her caregiver clearly had Downs Syndrome.
The only concern I was left with was the fact that abortion was covered by the Universal Health Care, and I still believed that was wrong. But as I lived there, I began to discover I had been misled in that understanding as well. Abortion wasn’t pushed as the only option by virtue of it being covered. It was just one of the options, same as it was in the USA. In fact, the percentage rates of abortion are far lower in Canada than they are in the USA, where abortion is often not covered by insurance and can be much harder to get. In 2008 Canada had an abortion rate of 15.2 per 1000 women (In other countries with government health care that number is even lower), and the USA had an abortion rate of 20.8 abortions per 1000 women.
And suddenly I could see why that was the case. With Universal coverage, a mother pregnant unexpectedly would still have health care for her pregnancy and birth even if she was unemployed, had to quit her job, or lost her job. If she was informed that she had a special needs baby on the way, she could rest assured knowing in Canada her child’s health care needs would be covered. Whether your child needs therapy, medicines, a caregiver, a wheelchair, or repeated surgeries, it would be covered by the health care system. Here, you never heard of parents joining the army just so their child's "pre-existing" health care needs could be covered. In fact, when a special needs person becomes an adult in Canada, they are eligible for a personal care assistant covered by the government. We saw far more developmentally or physically disabled persons out and about in Canada, than I ever see here in the USA. They would be getting their groceries at the store, doing their business at the bank, and even working job, all with their personal care assistant alongside them, encouraging them and helping them when they needed it. When my sister came up to visit, she even commented on how visible special needs people were when the lady smiling and waving while clearing tables at the Taco Bell with her caregiver clearly had Downs Syndrome.
Where will Canadians go if American healthcare goes down the drain?
For a Canadian account of socialized medicine, read the following:
It rocks. As I have posted previously, my family and I have always recieved high quality care for very serious medical issues (heart problems, cancers, appendixes, tonseils, etc.), without ever having to worry about losing our home.
I don't give a shit what anyone in that completely uncontextualized (and probably stupid, given Epocalypse's previous posting history) interview says. Canadian healthcare is for the most part pretty fantastic, and guess what: It's also incredibly cost-effective! I have had nothing but fantastic personal experiences with our healthcare.
There's a Canadian perspective for you.
1 perspective doesn't say anything. Just the other day when my Canadian uncle was visiting we were discussing the healthcare debate and in his experience with what his dad went through he would never say ever that their healthcare system is good. I also know a Canadian in my academic department who likes it. It goes both ways.
Is there bigger polling numbers that show the satisfaction of the Canadian Healthcare system? It would be interesting to see if there were some numbers on that. I suspect most Canadians are happy with it their system.
Where will Canadians go if American healthcare goes down the drain?
For a Canadian account of socialized medicine, read the following:
It rocks. As I have posted previously, my family and I have always recieved high quality care for very serious medical issues (heart problems, cancers, appendixes, tonseils, etc.), without ever having to worry about losing our home.
I don't give a shit what anyone in that completely uncontextualized (and probably stupid, given Epocalypse's previous posting history) interview says. Canadian healthcare is for the most part pretty fantastic, and guess what: It's also incredibly cost-effective! I have had nothing but fantastic personal experiences with our healthcare.
There's a Canadian perspective for you.
1 perspective doesn't say anything. Just the other day when my Canadian uncle was visiting we were discussing the healthcare debate and in his experience with what his dad went through he would never say ever that their healthcare system is good. I also know a Canadian in my academic department who likes it. It goes both ways.
Is there bigger polling numbers that show the satisfaction of the Canadian Healthcare system? It would be interesting to see if there were some numbers on that. I suspect most Canadians are happy with it their system.