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On June 08 2012 06:11 VisceraEyes wrote:
Very well.
I'm very VERY suspicious of BH indeed. It took me going back and rereading his entire filter TWICE before I realized the problem with his play that I had. Until that point, his play seemed off to me but aside from the lack of aggressiveness and take-chargeness that I'm used to seeing, I couldn't find anything scummy.
Then it occurred to me the obvious - that BH has been AVOIDING DOING SCUMMY THINGS! :OOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Of course your mileage may vary, but to me it seems like his play is teetering somewhere between diplomatic and sarcastic...but it has definitely NOT screamed town to me, as his play has done in the past. I look forward to hearing his full thoughts on the events of yesterday, because as it stands if Furerkip gets modkilled or replaced, then I'll be pushing BH's lynch.
You are just now realizing this?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 08 2012 06:23 VisceraEyes wrote:
I don't suppose you breadcrumbed that shit did you? Just to set my mind at ease...
Well, I didn't breadcrumb the shot. I figured I'd just say it during this phase when you can talk and people can't change their night actions.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Here's my role crumb:
On June 05 2012 08:11 Blazinghand wrote:
There's no need to get all moody about it. The point is, there are mechanics in this game to confuse cops other than miller.
get all [b][/b]moody about it
Moody = Mad Eye Moody from the Harry Potter series, whose catch phrase was "constant vigilance" = vigilante
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On June 08 2012 06:27 Katina wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 06:11 VisceraEyes wrote:
Very well.
I'm very VERY suspicious of BH indeed. It took me going back and rereading his entire filter TWICE before I realized the problem with his play that I had. Until that point, his play seemed off to me but aside from the lack of aggressiveness and take-chargeness that I'm used to seeing, I couldn't find anything scummy.
Then it occurred to me the obvious - that BH has been AVOIDING DOING SCUMMY THINGS! :OOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Of course your mileage may vary, but to me it seems like his play is teetering somewhere between diplomatic and sarcastic...but it has definitely NOT screamed town to me, as his play has done in the past. I look forward to hearing his full thoughts on the events of yesterday, because as it stands if Furerkip gets modkilled or replaced, then I'll be pushing BH's lynch. You are just now realizing this?
There's no need to be condescending Katina, are you always this abrasive? I hadn't noticed. :/
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I wanted to comment on Katina's case since it seemed very ill construed to me.
On June 07 2012 07:16 Katina wrote:Mr. VisceraEyes Let's take a look at one of his first posts. Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:10 VisceraEyes wrote:
Attention! I have a very important announcement for everyone in town!
I am a Miller!
What does this mean? First and most importantly, it means that I am a "townie" and win with Town. I'm not a "traitor" who wins with scum, or a "survivor" who wins with whomever, I'm a Miller and despite what our DTs may tell us later, I win with Town. Now, I don't expect you to just take my word for it: I expect you to keep a very close eye on me and lynch the FUCK out of me if it looks like I'm pushing Mafia objectives…but I don't expect that to be a problem because I'm going to be very actively pushing TOWN objectives.
However, what I propose is that we do NOT waste DT checks on me. Why? Because all it will do is confirm what I've told you just now - that a DT check will return a guilty result. What I propose you do is hold me to a higher standard than others when considering my lynch. Not an impossible standard - I DO want to live long enough to help find some scum…but a higher standard than others you consider for lynch in regard to content and clarity.
In return, I promise to be as open and honest with my reads and thoughts as possible, while simultaneously trying to consolidate my own posts for maximum thread readability.
So there you have it! I'm a Miller! What do you think about THAT, town? I'm actually a little excited because finally I don't have a freaking BLUE role to ruin. ^^ Here he opens with claiming that he is a Miller. He makes this big post about how he is all for the town and don't bother with a DT check because he will come back red. He says to keep a close eye on him and if it looks as if he is pushing a Mafia agenda then to lynch him. He uses capitals to emphasize his points and what NOT <--- to do. He comes out of nowhere with this post because he knows that people love to kill him and/or check him night 1. This is an attempt to divert suspicion from him and to ignore any evidence suggesting otherwise because he made it known early on. So when someone brings up suspicion he can just say "No. I told you early on I was a miller blah blah blah"
I don't see how you make this out as his intention. I'm also confused as to what you see in his capitalization; it seems very minor and the case seems to be made out of thin threads. He never said he expects people to say he's clean. Both the town and the scum explanation check out, making it a null read and I don't see the scum in it.
This is proven in his next post when he recieves a vote Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:40 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 05 2012 07:33 furerkip wrote:On June 05 2012 07:10 VisceraEyes wrote:
Attention! I have a very important announcement for everyone in town!
I am a Miller!
What does this mean? First and most importantly, it means that I am a "townie" and win with Town. I'm not a "traitor" who wins with scum, or a "survivor" who wins with whomever, I'm a Miller and despite what our DTs may tell us later, I win with Town. Now, I don't expect you to just take my word for it: I expect you to keep a very close eye on me and lynch the FUCK out of me if it looks like I'm pushing Mafia objectives…but I don't expect that to be a problem because I'm going to be very actively pushing TOWN objectives.
However, what I propose is that we do NOT waste DT checks on me. Why? Because all it will do is confirm what I've told you just now - that a DT check will return a guilty result. What I propose you do is hold me to a higher standard than others when considering my lynch. Not an impossible standard - I DO want to live long enough to help find some scum…but a higher standard than others you consider for lynch in regard to content and clarity.
In return, I promise to be as open and honest with my reads and thoughts as possible, while simultaneously trying to consolidate my own posts for maximum thread readability.
So there you have it! I'm a Miller! What do you think about THAT, town? I'm actually a little excited because finally I don't have a freaking BLUE role to ruin. ^^ Wait, are you serious? You just claimed Miller and said that DT shouldn't check on you because you are Miller... Judging from your ending, you said you've played this game before. To me, that strikes me as a really odd way to just spout out "I'm miller, and you'll get a guilty on me if you check me, so don't check me, OH and by the way, I'd like to make sure you guys realize that my opinion is more important than anyone else's because I'm officially a clear because I just claimed so. And also, I'm not claiming BLUE, just as reminder, I'm a Miller so investigating me will always turn up as a negative result for you." If you were really a Miller and had game experience, why wouldn't you just make yourself seem more of a townie? If anything, with gameplay experience, you should be able to have seen games were Millers play correctly and don't scream "I'm a Miller." I would have called this a dumbtell, since I sincerely doubt Mafia would just do this. But fact is, your whole post is made to seem like you are a Miller, and a simple "I claim Miller" would have sufficed. But you went above and beyond that: you wanted to have town not even try to examine you unless, as you said, "I expect you to keep a very close eye on me and lynch the FUCK out of me if it looks like I'm pushing Mafia objectives…", which can be translated to "not at all" because Mafia will never try to make it obvious that they are Mafia. ##Vote VisceraEyes Pushing mafia objectives =/= being obvious scum friend, I don't know where you've been playing. Town should be keeping a super-close eye on me regardless of what I'm doing, exactly because of this claim. I'm not trying to "avoid examination", I'm trying to make the most of our DT checks. Are you saying that it would be beneficial to town somehow to "confirm" my claim by checking me only to lynch me later for me to flip exactly what I said I would? Is that what you're trying to achieve here? Having DT's actually check me? Because it seems like an awful waste to me, especially since your first reaction to the claim was "KILL IT!!!"...like, if all it's going to take is an off word or two to send me through the shredder, then why the hell WOULD a DT check me? Anyway, I'm open to suggestions as to how to handle it - I gave my suggestion. Enough said.
He once again emphasizes that people should not take his posts for granted as town, and he should be scrutinized. I'm very confused as to what you're getting at here.
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:45 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 05 2012 07:43 Blazinghand wrote:
Ah where would we be without a hilarious/bad VE claim?
On a more serious note, given that he's either lying scum OR actually a miller, there's no reason for a DT to check him-- whether he's lying or telling the truth the result is the same. Thank you. So which camp are you in BH? Hilarious or Bad? Because I think this is probably the best way to handle Miller right now. Here we see that VE can get away with just about anything because people just brush it off as typical VE play. I refuse to just brush all the derpness that comes out of VE's mouth as just typical VE play.
Wut. He made a joke.
Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 09:15 VisceraEyes wrote:Now, Katina, tell me it surprises you. Go on, I could use a good laugh. ^^ I say it every game - my vote is a tool. People react to pressure, and my vote helps to lend that telling pressure. Do you think it's scummy? Because I couldn't help but notice that you left that out of your astute analysis of my votes.  This was his post that he made in defense of his voting on three different people. As you can see it's not much.... Again he uses the "My vote is a tool" excuse. He is really playing up his "I'm VE I vote on the whole town in a day and people will just nod and smile" I'm not buying it.
But I HAVE seen him use his vote as a tool in previous games. In MTG mafia he kept changing targets too depending on who he thought he could lynch and he was townie in that game. Changing votes is a horrible reason to think someone is mafia and this case just makes me suspect you.
This is also interesting Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 04:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah, I'm sold. Like, his style isn't generally regarded as good for town, so I could understand if he were trying to switch it up or something, but he's not trying to find scum either so I can't accept that as a response even if he says that's the case. We're halfway through D1 so people should have some pretty firm opinions about someone...BH hasn't displayed any opinions of anyone.
##Unvote: ghost_403
##Vote: Blazinghand Note how he is sold on BH and ready to lynch. Then what does silly VE do? Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 10:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm not interested in lynching BH today. He posts this later on. I thought he was sold?
You don't think BH's massively more helpful posts than before that had anything to do with it?
Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 11:53 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm ready to lynch Pandain.
lolwut?
Who's with me? This post followed after. He makes a silly post that he is ready to lynch Pandian. Okay, well he was playing oddly I will give him that then he proceeds to make this case:
Still fine with this.
Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 12:36 VisceraEyes wrote:Also this leads well into my thesis: "BULLSHIT!"An observation of the logical fallacy "too scummy to be scum" and it's effect on this game. I think that Furerkip is scum. He's been looking at the game in a very limited way: removing bad townies so that scum are easier to find. However, as it's been observed numerous times in the past and what has become the town consensus is that this is a terrible way to play the game because there's no benefit to killing townies. This is where the logical fallacy is rooted. In my post here On June 05 2012 12:58 VisceraEyes wrote:I'm trying to decide if kips motivation is coming from a scum standpoint. On the one hand the suggestion that getting rid of "retarded townies" is somehow beneficial to town is blatantly anti-town and at worst indicative of furerkip pushing a mafia agenda. However, newer players get it in their mind somehow that the actions of townies can damage town somehow worse than the very real consequence of their death, which is shortening the game. Town's aim needs to be lengthening the game, not shortening it. That's why we aim for scum every single lynch, because every scum lynch increases the number of days the game lasts. What gets me the most about furerkip is the fact that he is operating under the assumption that we're clear to "kill a retarded townie" under the assumption that we have "1 Mislynch we can work with". It's in this post... On June 05 2012 07:37 furerkip wrote:
On another note as to why I think VisceraEyes should be lynched, is because if there are 4 mafia, and 12 players, then we have 1 Mislynch we can work with, which is fine to use on retarded townies. That's just my belief when I play though. Anyone want to add anything? ...I don't understand the motivation behind this post. Like, as a townie, I'm not thinking in terms of how many townies we can kill before it's game over. I'm thinking in terms of killing scum. I aim for killing scum with the lynch, and so the number of townies "we can safely kill before LYLO" isn't even a concern to me because that number increases every lynch by my expectation, not decreases. However, all of that being said, I can see him being a newer town not really knowing what's best for town, yet acting like he does to try and establish his innocence, which IS a mark in his favor where I'm concerned. Also it doesn't make sense for scum to be so brashly antagonistic so early in the game, though I am NOT ruling it out. Ultimately, I'd be interested to see what furerkip has to say about people other than me before coming to a conclusion about where I think he's coming from. Obviously my view is skewed of him right now because his only act in the game has been attacking me.
What does everyone else think about furerkip? His stance on my claim is a pretty good one to discuss, what are your thoughts on his interpretation of my claim? I point out both why I'm suspicious of Furerkip and also why I could be mistaken about my read. I'm conflicted, because I'm suspicious, but I feel he could be town, so I employ town to look for me and give me the "second opinion" I desire. The responses were almost unanimously in favor of "newb-town" because of how aggressively he attacks me and how anti-town his posting is. However, the first point about his aggressiveness is null because not only does he backpedal before he leaves (in spite of leaving his vote on me) in this post: On June 05 2012 08:07 furerkip wrote:On June 05 2012 08:00 Blazinghand wrote:On June 05 2012 07:58 furerkip wrote:
In fact, if he turns Miller upon a lynch, then wouldn't that help us? Cop's reports can be trusted to a tee.
1) no, if he turns miller on a lynch, we just lynched a townie, which is bad. 2) On June 02 2012 06:23 wherebugsgo wrote:Godfather+ Show Spoiler [possible role PM] + Over the years, you've gone by a number of different names. Al Capone, Dick Cheney, Julius Caesar, Elmo, and Martha Stewart all come to mind. Now, however, you want to just retire. In order to do so, though, you must first kill everyone who is not part of your family, because you are highly allergic to non-related people. They make you sick. At your disposal is your uncanny ability to appear as anything you wish. As such you can choose to appear "innocent" to all investigations, if you so wish. By night one you must decide whether you want to mask yourself to investigations. You may also communicate privately with your family member(s) name(s) here in any manner you wish. A QT has been provided at (link here) for your convenience. blahblahblah standard scum fluff here you win when you outnumber town your teammates are here and you have a QT here, you may target one person per night, causing them to display the opposite alignment to any cops who choose to investigate them for that night only. You may not target yourself. You crazy. And probably illiterate. You like feet.
Since it doesn't matter what I tell you, just kill everything. You win if you live and no one else does.
You can choose to appear innocent to all checks or have the ability to survive one KP once. You can kill one person every night, but you don't have to. That didn't make any sense, Serial Killers and Godfathers choose to be innocent; if he's a mafia he'll be framer or goon. Lynching townies is game ending on lynch or lose situations. Lynching bad townies on ML is actually okay in my experience. Makes for better 3-way lynches. As for the framer part, you have a good point. Anyways, it seems no one agrees with me, which makes me feel like I'm tunneling, but my FoS is still VE. I'll leave it at that, and won't press it, until I see another scumslip from him. ...but he hasn't been back in the thread to continue his "brashly aggressive" style against anyone else in the game. Just parks his vote on me. And the second point of how anti-town his motivation is - is based entirely upon the logical fallacy "too scummy to be scum". There's no such thing as too scummy to be scum. For these reasons, I remain suspicious of Furerkip and anyone who has been pushing the notion that he's auto-town because of his responses deserves instant FoS, which happens to include Mr. Pandain. He makes this case on Furerkip and just briefly mentions Pandian at the end. I thought he was ready to lynch Pandian. Why make a post against another player instead of making your case on Pandian to ensure his lynch?
Now this is the one good point you make in the entire case that I feel is scummy of VE. If Pandain is your main lynch target at that point, your post should be about Pandain, not furerkip. I don't like it and although the excuse of Emotional VE could be used (see MTG mafia for how VE can flip off). I don't think that's the case here at all just by getting accused from a newbie mafia. So VE, why did you make a massive case on furer then vote on Pandain?
Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 13:05 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'll make a case later Pandain. Suffice to say that I feel like you've been playing a scummy game all game, and it has only now become clear why. What? Don't most people make their cases then cast their votes instead of waiting for later? I'm not sure why VE would need to wait until later to make his case. It really makes no sense. VE has been all over the place day 1. He goes after several people. He votes on one person then goes and makes accusations and cases against someone else. His play is incredibly inconsistent. He is using his "Typical Play" card to do whatever he wants. He is doing nothing but casting doubt around the town. His focus is on throwing around accusations to try and appear like he's scumhunting. He appears to be pushing a Mafia agenda. VE made his miller claim early on so no one will suspect him because he "warned" us. His play has been completely ridiculous. He shouldn't be allowed to live through the night let alone another day. VisceraEyes is Mafia. Don't let his excuses that he's VE fool you into overlooking his scummyness. He is not helping the town at all. This needs to stop. VE is over emphasizing his Millerness. It reminds me of Bill Murray in jubjub where he got checked before the mafia converted him, and he just kept emphasizing that he was innocent cause he got checked.
I feel like you're tunneling VE just over his first post here and it makes you see everything he posted in a scum light, whereas I can see a townie reasoning for every post other than that where he accused Pandain after making a long post on furer. That however is far from enough to chalk someone up as red for me. As for you Katina, I have you on a thin shade of red after this weak case, though I can see it being a case of tunneling.
Also we should kill blazinghand.
After my recent F5, let's not unless the death count is weird on N2.
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Check the last part of the case again Artanis - she raises this big stink about how I didn't make a case against Pandain...even though I DID make a case against Pandain! It was ever-so-slightly-delayed but I DID come back in and make it almost immediately.
She even acknowledges this when I ask her about my points in the case, but then goes on to post this case on ME anyway, where she mentions me not making a case. I find this extremely peculiar and I think we need to TRY and get Katina to do something worthwhile today.
A small contradiction, if you want to call it that, but worth noting since you took the time to pick apart her case.
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I'm not tunneling VE. I'm going after him because of his claim and overall play day 1. To me it was scummy so therefore I put up a case against him. I didn't know making cases on suspects was scummy.
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On June 08 2012 06:40 Katina wrote:
I'm not tunneling VE. I'm going after him because of his claim and overall play day 1. To me it was scummy so therefore I put up a case against him. I didn't know making cases on suspects was scummy.
Try again without the strawman Katina. He's not saying you're scummy for making a case on your suspect, he's saying the case itself is scummy.
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@VisceraEyes: I'll have to go back through your posting history for that and right now I want to use the last 15 min to read up on some other people that I actually have more of a scumread on.
@Katina Going through loops to paint someone as scum who isn't exhibiting scum traits is scummy, Katina. But you also missed something: VE voted along with me on Ghost very rapidly after my case. A quick bandwagon, if you will. I'd imagine that would fit into your case and I'm curious how come you didn't notice it or emitted it out of your case.
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I was suspicious of Navillus but looking through his filter I feel I was wrong, and I don't find him suspicious right now. Ghost's suspicion went down a bit after clarifying he was sarcastic, which I took a bit too serious, but he is still on the radar until further contributions. Hyaach is like the perfect mislynch candidate: His posts are generally confused. Town is confused because they don't know who their allies are and who their enemies are. Mafia knows who their allies are and who their enemies are, therefore a newbie being confused is a town trait in my eyes.
So who DO I want to see hang? I'd like to take a closer look at Zelblade. Pandain pointed at him too and I agree with the assertion that he's been too lurky, even if he has been busy. His posts have left a bad impression on me, such as how he basically played a question game and let everyone else do the work for him in the start before making a statement, therefore having more information and being able to make a more 'safe' post. Also goes after Hyaach, pandain, and generally seems to follow the flow, though this is supposedly his natural town play, that's not something I'm accepting this easily and I want to see him step up his posting as he said he will.
I also find Katina mildly suspicious for reasons stated above in my earlier case.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I don't like that we haven't heard from Hyaach in a day, and before that he's barely posted at all. He hasn't made any cases, except to say he's null on VE. He makes a vague case on pand:
On June 06 2012 22:45 Hyaach wrote:
Late to the party but did no one thought that Pand was fishing for information when he asked Masons to claim?
He could very likely be a SK as well but either way his scum.
The rest of it is bad excuses and unhelpful justification for his actions:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 07 2012 06:47 Hyaach wrote:
Shouldn't you see how the lynch works out before you decide to pressure someone base? you FoS on someone other and random vote on me makes me think you wanna fish for information rather than pressure me given the number of lurkers at the time when you vote me ? On June 07 2012 06:57 Hyaach wrote:
Its called time zone difference.
So I cannot not vote because I was not around when the case was pushed? I actually thought him to be a serial killer rather than most who thinks his mafia.
The flip do matters i tell you. You are saying like you know his scum/town before lynch. Time of vote matter but I agree its not applicable in my case because I was just not around when the case was pushed through. On June 07 2012 07:00 Hyaach wrote:
I urge town to double read the case against me. It is just because I did not respond to a very shady vote on day one.
On June 07 2012 07:10 Hyaach wrote:
Not that good of a lynch but I believe it was still the best lynch last night.
Mainly because claiming vig on day one is the safest blue.
I believe Pandain was playing with the fact that townies are rather reluctant to lynch blues but burnt his finger doing so.
Along with the vaguest of pressures on Furerkip.
Hyaach is a guy who has failed to make any sort of case or contribute in any major way since the start of the game. He's no Furerkip in terms of inactivity, but I don't like it, and I don't like him.
I was thinking G_403 was scummy, but really he hasn't been interacting much with anyone but MrZ. This caught my eye though, near the end of D1:
On June 07 2012 03:02 ghost_403 wrote:
B) I don't like how this Pandain lynch is going along. I don't believe his claim, but I'm not convinced he's scum. He could simply be an idiot townie trying to draw mafia shots toward himself for whatever reason. I'm not comfortable lynching him today.
I'm actually not sure what I think about this. What we have here is G_403 basically calling exactly what's going to happen to pandain. He either had a great read or was scum. I guess my question is, G_403, where was the attempt to convince us that this was the case? You can't just plop your vote down on MrZ and bail and hope we all just follow you.
I don't like Katina's play this game. I mean, obviously I don't like the play that targets me, but there's some really suspect stuff imo. A lot of leaps in logic and mis-characterizations. I'm really unfamiliar with Katina's meta but check it:
On June 07 2012 07:16 Katina wrote:
He comes out of nowhere with this post because he knows that people love to kill him and/or check him night 1. This is an attempt to divert suspicion from him and to ignore any evidence suggesting otherwise because he made it known early on.
This is just wrong. VE gets a ton of suspicion since we know we can't check him...
On June 07 2012 07:16 Katina wrote:
VE is over emphasizing his Millerness. It reminds me of Bill Murray in jubjub where he got checked before the mafia converted him, and he just kept emphasizing that he was innocent cause he got checked.
VE has been posting a lot and never mentioned his millerness after that initial claim and some questions.
On June 07 2012 07:16 Katina wrote:
Also we should kill blazinghand.
._.
How much of this is just false? How much of it is misleading? Answer: yes. yes it is.
Hope to see tomorrow <3 where I will be pressuring these 3 if I'm alive.
No posts on furerkip because he's scum and will die like scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Day 2
The fourth night following the heist was quiet. The few in the city who still sought justice discovered that the man killed at dusk was merely another troubled, innocent citizen. Pandain and the other passed souls would be avenged, they pledged. Why was the government not helping? The question had been passed back and forth, but it was becoming apparent that perhaps this was bigger than a simple citywide rebellion because of a lack of power. This was no Indian Summer; this chaos had the machinations of a bigger, more troubled agency.
As the restless fought on to survive, the burning continued.
No one died.
48 hours to lynch. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
._. I was RBed
Well I look like shit now don't I
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
So my theory is that either A) mafia has an RB which they used on me, and then either their target or their shooter got JKed, or B) I got JKed, blocking my shot and the mafia shot that was on me.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
OH, or, alternatively, someone JKed Furerkip, who was both the mafia shooter and my target, stopping both shots.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Whatever. Ok so we all know Furerkip needs to die. Do I need to reiterate why?
##vote: Furerkip
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I would also suggest Ghost as a lynch candidate.
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Well, that's interesting.
Gonna have to think about what this means, but will do so later. Gotta go to bed now and get up early for tomorrow, Dutch Championships of gaming. No clue when I'll be able to jump in and post, it's a two day event but I don't think I'll get past day one. See y'all tomorrow.
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All roleblock notifications are the same regardless of the responsible role. In other words, a jailed player, a mafia-roleblocked player, and a town-roleblocked player would all receive the same roleblock notification.
There are no hit notifications.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/docs/fib_la_fire1_s.jpg)
