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On May 04 2012 17:49 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:45 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 16:26 GTPGlitch wrote:On May 04 2012 16:20 willll wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 15:33 avilo wrote:
Btw, myself and many other Terran's have suggested plenty of things that they could actually do to start balancing out lategame, and I have no idea if blizzard has considered any but:
Lategame TvZ:
-Tweak raven energy to 75 for HSM, remove the energy upgrade. This gives Terran a unit against broodlord/infestor, as well as a lategame splash unit in general. It would be as "imbalanced" as broodlord+infestor+corruptor currently is, aka just like brood war. They need to start taking this stance in their balance design - make things powerful, instead of nerf, nerf, nerf.
Broodlord infestor is powerful as fuck lategame, but giving Terran something equally as powerful to use such as a 75 nrg HSM means not only does Terran get lategame power just like Zerg does in this situation, but both players have incredibly strong things that can actually counteract the other.
In Brood war, irradiate and defilers were both "IMBALANCED" but the game ended up being very dynamic and excellent regardless. People have really lost touch with this because they don't remember just how damn good brood war is. Do people realize that defilers literally made all of their zerg ground units INVINCIBLE against 99% of Terran's units? Do people realize the science vessel actually could have enough energy for two irradiates that would kill every single Zerg unit and do splash to units around those? (ok it didn't kill the ultra, but it took out half it's health!)
The keys to making this game "good" are all there, it's just it seems the design team does not want to take anything from Starcraft 1 in concept/idea/design to get SC2 to where the balance needs to be. It's a bit disappointing, considering 99% of us are playing SC2 because of how awesome BW is.
Lategame PvT:
-Make BCS more viable/change price/something
BCS are Terran's tier3, there is potential there to make that a transition unit for Terrans. It actually can be in the current game, but it requires 45 min+ stalemate situations (believe me, I probably have the most experience of any Terrans in 45 min+ games).
-Nerf the warpgate for the purpose of nerfing protoss's mid-game all-in strength across the board in all three match-ups.
Protoss was never meant to have an expoitable assortment of 2 base all-ins vs Z/T. The warp prism was supposed to provide this function of allowing itself to be a mobile warp generator. To fix a lot of issues for PvT lategame, and Protoss all-ins in general (including retarded 1 base all-ins PvP) simply make it so you can only warp in units AROUND GATEWAYS.
What this ends up doing is it makes Protoss as a race harder, because all-ins in the manner they are done nowadays will only be accessible through a warp prism. It also means that in lategame TvP if Terran has outplayed the Protoss the Terran is actually given an opportunity via time and travel distance to punish Protoss's expansions/bases. Yes, protoss can still build gateways at far away bases, but that becomes an investment/risk and obviously make the warp-in radius not gigantic so a Protoss player now also has to consider base layout as well.
It removes the entire advantage protoss has of simply avoiding travel distance, which is one of the fundamental problems right now with SC2 protoss, and then makes Protoss a less "easy" race to play, which is good.
-Late game chargelots
They require no micro, and are bad for the game in general. Do something that makes the protoss player actually have to watch them/micro them instead of simply warp in and go afk.
-Mech vs Protoss - FIX IT!
Terran mech is brood war, just because it's brood war does not mean it's bad *I'm looking at Dustin Browder right now*. In beta, you could go full ghost mech against protoss, and play long macro games even on ridiculously large maps, because siege tanks always were cost effective with their brood war damage, meaning if you were already pre-sieged, and protoss engaged like a caveman, you would always, always get your money's worth.
But Browder/Kim seem to have something against anything that is like "brood war" and they nerfed the siege tank, buffed the chargelot, and that was the nail in the coffin for mech tvp. A lot of people do not even remember this change if they did not play the beta, but this is why mech has become a "relic of the past" because of pre-emptive changes to make the game less like broodwar, and encourage Terrans to use the 1A marauder instead.
Mech can be made viable TvP, blizzard can do it, let's hope they will instead of side skirting around the issue. They can cheapen armory prices/mech/sky upgrade prices, remove thor energy, things of this nature, along with looking at the zealot armor type and making it so tanks can actually kill chargelots in siege mode lategame...
There's a lot that can be done to make Terran viable in lategame, that blizzard simply is not doing right now, whether out of fear that the game will be like brood war with "lots of siege tanks" or for whatever other reasons or because of the fear that Terran will be "imba" like it was ORIGINALLY in beta...but they really need to realize there is a balance problem right now and simply ignoring it and saying "Protoss has the advantage when they defend all your harass" is not the way to go about it.
No Terran, no pro terran, not even any Terran in lower leagues is going to be happy that blizzard has no acknowledged they are at a disadvantage when the game goes long. IT's just wrong. If we agree with Blizz assertions that TvP favors T in the early game and P if game continues with little damage, then any downgrade of lategame P has to be met with an upgrade to early game P or a downgrade to early game T. What do you suggest? What, exactly, is it that is so weak about Protoss earlygame compared to terran? I mean... Gateway composition with competent forcefields can hold most bio attacks pre-medivacs/P aoe. Medivac+upgrade timings are pretty strong, but generally limited in transitions if you don't do enough damage, in the same vein of 6gate pressure to a T expo before stim, using forcefields to stop bunker repair. Sure, there's a window where t2.5-3 medivacs and upgrades gives T a pretty big advantage against pure gateway, but in turn there are also windows for gateway timings to do big damage to pure bio armies early as well... I am accepting the Blizz arguments at face value. But you have to accept both sides. You cannot arbitrarily say "well, T<P lategame if no damage, therefore buff T lategame or nerf P lategame." You have to accept both sides of the discussion. I would guess (with NO expert knowledge), that early T pushes such as marine scv rushes, 2 rax + scv rushes, and 1/1/1 with scv are the main T weapons. Usually these revolve around the mule as well (i.e., if you attack with all your army and all scvs, and I kill all your army and scv's, but lose all my army and probes, mule will push 6 marines out to kill me off). And that is exactly what everyone is complaining about. Noone is claiming that T is weak in TvP early/mid game. At all. The problem is that 1-base and 2-base all-ins are just dull. T's don't want to have to rely on having to deal large amounts of damage early on only to be able to stand a chance in the lategame. Similarly, T's don't want to have to rely on building the same units as their core army at minute 3 of the game as they do at minute 30.
Pressure is not an all-in, is that hard to understand ? And you are building vikings and ghosts at minute 3. Otherwise your point is invalid, protoss is also building zealots and stalkers early and is building them lategame.
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On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored.
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On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored.
And that is the balance problem why ?
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" this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing", does that mean that TvP will remain untouched aside from further terran nerfs (obs build time buff)?Dota2, here we go, seriously, no drama.
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Oh, Lovely. A post by Blizzard saying they actually have no idea what to do about TvP basically.
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Isnt this the exact same in PvZ? Goodluck just sitting there and not doing any damage vs broodlord infestor max @ 15 mins.
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On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ?
Did I say it was? I thought i said it has nothing to do with metagame.
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On May 04 2012 17:05 chestnutcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:41 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 04 2012 16:07 chestnutcc wrote:
Blizzard doing the right thing here. Strategic choices make imbalance not.
1. This exact same situation is present in PvZ, toss has several aggressive options in the mid game, but has a hellish time against infestor brood lord without stellar unit control. This is not to mention that the mid game in PvZ actually ends at 12 minutes when the zerg maxes, which is a tiny window from 8 minutes onwards. PvZ is hardly imba though, and is v reflective of either player's skill level.
2. Terrans need to tech faster like toss has to in the early to mid games. Whereas toss teching does not actually net them a stronger mid game, terran tech magnifies their mid game strength tremendously. Tech here mostly means fast upgrades and multiple OC's, maybe with slightly delayed medvacs. The sort of build that MKP premiered with super fast double e bays so that the terran is at 3/3 at 15 minutes is an absolute nightmare for toss. This kind of build takes away from the strength of the 10:30 medvac timing, which is mainly to discourage greedy thirds rather than kill the toss, but no one should be relying to win the game with that.
3. Terrans are the least capable caster users of the three races. They also have the strongest caster unit (unit, not abilities per se since emp is no where as good as fungal in TvZ, but is devastating in PvT). Players like parting or stephano use their casters brilliantly, devising their entire game styles around these units, but there are hardly any terrans who do the same. Rarely do you see ghosts being scattered about in the same way hts are or constantly making sneak attacks and scouting compositions the way infestors do. Thorzain is pretty much the only one to heavily incorporate them into his games.
4. Upgraded vikings are really good.
5. Terran armies have to be larger than their toss counter part by 30-40 supply, perhaps much earlier than is standard now
6. Sensor towers and scans mean that the terran army should never really be caught out of position on defenders turf.
I probably fell for a troll, but whatever.. I have a little time... 1) Toss still has the mothership as the great equalizer. That means while there is a phase in the game where toss has the advantage followed by a longer phase where the zerg has the advantage, the absolute endgame is quite even. 2) So you have better upgrade but later starport. That just means that toss will have colossi while you have too little vikings. So you wait till you have vikings, but in that time protoss has templar... etc. etc. and suddenly you are in the late game without having attacked. Fast upgrades work vs some builds (fast templar mainly), but delaying starport tech means you extend the period of time where you have to sit in your base in the dark because you cannot move out without risking the whole game. 3) The strongest cast unit the ghost? Tell me, when have you last seen a ghost kill anything mechanical with his spells? I guess this 'strongest caster unit' is so good, that it isn't used anymore vs Zerg and was never really used vs terran. But yeah.. it's of course because the terran players - who play a race that relies massively on micro - collectively cannot use casters. Yes, you don't see ghosts scattered around like HTs. Imagine a terran drop coming in. The HT feedbacks and then maybe even storms while the warped in zealots (that are warped in before the whole drop unloads) clean up the rest. Now imagine the same setting in a TvT. The ghost EMPs the medivac, then blows up to 5 snipes on the content (imagining full energy) dealing enough dmg to kill a single marauder or two marines. Then the ghost is slaughtered because terran cannot make units magically appear where they are needed. Sometimes you see ghosts making sneak attacks in cloaked form, but that's always with the nuke. That is because the invisibility of the ghost costs energy. Guess what - that's also why ghosts don't scout that much (besides the scan in the lategame being much more available). The ghost is also such a great caster unit, that he cannot kill multiple workers in a short time with his spells. 4) Upgraded colossi are even better. Duh! You even get their upgrades for free while you upgrade your gate ways AND you can get upgrades faster than any other race. 5) Unfortunately it is not possible to sack SCVs earlier, because transitioning into mass OC requires some bank. 30-40 supply freed up requires ~8 OCs. Even a protoss should realize that 4400 minerals aren't that readily available. And NO! MULEs are NOT THAT good. They are 4.5 SCVs. Get that in your head! 6) Blowing resources on knowing where your opponent is really helps if you have a less mobile but more cost efficient army. That is not the case. Sadly. The moment terran is on the defensive in the late game is the moment he is in trouble. Better spend resources on staying offensive instead of preparing for the losing battle to lose longer. Glad to see you're spending your valuable time, I'm sure you'll be back soon. 1. Mothership is becoming steadily less and less effective. Look to the MC Stephano/ Hero Stephano games. The mothership barely did anything in the critical engagements (MC lost his game infact). The longer the game goes on, the less the mothership is useful, since there will be more broods and a larger zerg bank. This is inevitably the case, since the zerg wants to creep with spines anyhow. The main point was the toss advantage ends at 12 minutes. 2. This is why you scout and have scans. Should a toss continue with double forges in the face of a thor banshee push? Fast colossi have little to no gateway support and upgraded bio runs all over it. Don't quote squirtles games, none of those terrans scouted or even if they did they were woefully ill prepared. There is an older MC MVP (MLG Orlando or the next) game where MVP demonstrates killing off a 3 colossi push with pure bio. 3. Its not used in TvZ because there are simpler alternatives, like reactored vikings. In fact it was so good that they had to nerf it to restrict it to its anti caster role, which is now even better than before the nerf. So yes, as a unit (not its aoe ability), amongst the casters, it is the strongest. Snipe outranges feedback and costs less. TvT is nonsense anyway so who cares what happens there. 4. Massive gas banks from terran and no shortage of minerals makes getting air upgrades early v viable. In the late game you should have it well upgraded anyway since bio upgrades should have finished long before. The vikings is much better than the corruptor at this job, with its longer range. Also, earlier upgrades do not really present a window for toss to act in early, and a terran can play greedy accordingly to match their upgrades closely and use their numerical superiority till their own 3/3 is done. 5. You say 8 OC's, out of which 3 should already be on the map, possibly 4. And you add them incrementally. A few months ago zergs scoffed at the idea of a 12 minute hive, and that it was impossible to get upgraded ultras out before 20 minutes, now it is v standard. This is not something that has been experimented enough imo. Also, mules are that good yes, since 8 supply less mules which is about 2 OC's worth of energy are 40 supply worth of scvs by your own account. 6. You really only need 1 or 2 sensor towers to cover far flung expos or your primary bases. Hardly a large investment in the late game.
1) While the time the toss advantage ends massively depends on the build and ones capability to blink stalker micro, I agree, that it ends in a similar fashion than the terrans in TvP. My main point is that is becomes WAY more even when the mothership is out. Yes, Zergs are adapting and not insta-dying to to the archon toilet anymore. But watch Darkforce vs Hasuobs in the NASL e.g. where Hasu shifted into carrier archon an upgraded his air force which meant that the crawler wall didn't prevent broods from dying that much. The very endgame of PvZ is roughly equal and the nature of the armies forces very careful slow positioning of the main force which in turn allows for harassment from both sides (warp prism / DT / ling run-by / bane drops). Compare that to TvP where P reaches his max deathball and goes (attention: hyperbole!) "Well.. here we a-move."
2) Don't start me on scouting. You realize, that stalkers are faster than SCVs and until terran is ready to push out, he cannot send units out to scout? And please don't start with scan. It's a gamble at best and an expensive one at that.
Besides it seems you imagine a battle taking place in the open. Yes, with mass bio and upgrades you can stop a colossus push in the open (which is what happened in MVP vs MC if I remember). But the toss can just simply sit on his ass in his natural behind is ramp. Then you are screwed without medivacs. You cannot attack without medivacs due to force field. That only works in gold league, where you can gamble on fail force fields.
3) Yes, the ghosts are the best 'anti-caster' caster. But that doesn't make them the best general caster unit. The ghosts are used to mitigate the MASSIVE impact of the other 2 main casters. You can easily see that if you ever watched a game where the terran opted ghosts over vikings when the colossi came. Or a game - if you can find one - where terran makes ghosts against another terran to use them in the army composition (and not for nuke harassment). You will realize, that ghost play is not a strategic choice but rather a tool to mitigate an opponents advantage and nearly every time the ghost is made reactionary. Which isn't a sign of a strong unit, but the sign of a weak one.
4) "Massive gas bank" are aquired in the late game. Sorry to disappoint you there. At the time where you want to upgrade as terran gas IS tight, because you simultaneously teching up, getting bio upgrades AND medivacs. Take a wild guess, why double ebay upgrades delay medivacs so much... really..
5) You realize that Terran already maxes about the same time as protoss in most games? That means that there is no room to even sneak 2-3 extra orbitals. And after protoss has maxed, there is little room as well because the terran army composition is so weak that it relies on constant trading.. but well.. maybe we are just missing the 8 OC by 12 minute build. How about you try out terran? I will try out toss with the "I turtle on 2-3 bases until deathball and then amove" build. Interested?
6) It seems I have to repeat myself: Terran does not die because they are caught out of position. They die because they get slaughtered even if they are IN position. Great.. lets build 2 sensor towers to cover far flung expansions. You still die because your army just got rolled and now the toss is camping your production.
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On May 04 2012 13:40 aYtDuSteR wrote:
"the fact that blizzard has openly admitted that TvP forces Terran to push the midgame and by default be weaker in a straight up lategate is upsetting"
Unfortunatly 99% of the community has this opinion. You are taking the game way out of context to prove a point thats already been addressed in blizzards post. As state by blizzard you can also look at it from the POV T>P in the early game and therefore T >P in late game due to mid game advantage ( which was exactly what blizzard stated and you overlooked).
The point is you can always take something out of context look at it with an absolute perspective and cry imballance. SC2 isn't a 1D game that can be viewed in that way, its a fluid and dynamic game that should be viewed as progression proceeds through the different stages of the game.
The problem with Blizzard's logic here, with your assumption of it anyway, is that the early game is the only thing guaranteed in any game. The lategame has the potential to simply not exist after any point in the game, if the winner is decided before that point. I'm not sure exactly how Blizzard feels upon this matter, but if your assumption of T>P early, and P>T late, thus T=P (and by that I mean it's balanced) is a critical flaw in logic.
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On May 04 2012 18:11 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ? Did I say it was? I thought i said it has nothing to do with metagame.
If you were not complaining about balance then second part of your post has no relation to what he said. And it actually easily can be metagame issue exactly because what you said.
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On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored.
of course its the metagame
just look thorzain play, he is less aggressive midgame for a stronger lategame. takes his third a little faster, has more gas for tech and upgrades than metagame.
well bio vs mass aoe is bad for obv reasons, you dont need to balance that.
mech + ghost + viking eats toss aoe alive with equal upgrades, but as i said before the metagame right now is bio + early/midgame pressure to not get into an equal lategame. if the P has his upgrades and tech its G_G since the terran's plan to end it midgame failed (since mostly the P was better than the T).
we (terran) cant be favoured everywhere with m&m&m&g, colos+templar counters it with equal upgrades and unit control since they win the range fight/position fight.
thats why T loses late, and it would be imbalanced if they (we) won
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Phew, what a shitty PR and contact with the community. It was one single paragraph and voilà, players are happy to see that Blizz somewhat gives a shit. Did they really need a shitstorm to write one small paragraph?
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I am so mad at blizzard's position on how the game should be played. Its always going to be easier to defend then it is to attack.. Does defender's advantage ever come into mind ever??? The fact that terran have to work so much harder to get into a winnable late game is ridiculous. I rather have them nerf terran early/mid game to give them a chance in late game. Its so silly to go into a game, and know you have already loss because you haven't "done your damage" to set you up for the late game lolz.
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the only reasonable thing they could fix is that colo's upgrades should be the air upgrades.
right now 0-1 vikings do nothing vs colo with 3 armor upgrades. P just needs 3/3 for ground vs terran and its gg. if the colo switch would be less effective (since they'd have 0-0 vs 3 armor bio and die faster vs air) the MU would be more in the T's favour, but also in midgame.
also it effects PvZ alot but no idea how much since i dont play either race.
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On May 04 2012 17:56 Brett wrote:
Dear SC2Terran,,
This is how we've felt for some 10 years now.
Regards,
BWProtoss
Hadn't thought about it like that before, but this guy really has a point.
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On May 04 2012 18:19 furo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. of course its the metagame just look thorzain play, he is less aggressive midgame for a stronger lategame. takes his third a little faster, has more gas for tech and upgrades than metagame. well bio vs mass aoe is bad for obv reasons, you dont need to balance that. mech + ghost + viking eats toss aoe alive with equal upgrades, but as i said before the metagame right now is bio + early/midgame pressure to not get into an equal lategame. if the P has his upgrades and tech its G_G since the terran's plan to end it midgame failed (since mostly the P was better than the T). we (terran) cant be favoured everywhere with m&m&m&g, colos+templar counters it with equal upgrades and unit control since they win the range fight/position fight. thats why T loses late, and it would be imbalanced if they (we) won
That makes it sound like bio should only ever work in early to mid game. But what other options are there? Mech? T3 Tech? I don't think so, and that's where I think the real problem lies. Sure terran already has tons of options throughout the game, but it kind of ends at the late game, especially in TvP for obvious reasons. It would be nice if blizzard could make some of the later tech options or mech TvP more viable without ruining balance overall.
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On May 04 2012 18:24 Ameisenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:19 furo wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. of course its the metagame just look thorzain play, he is less aggressive midgame for a stronger lategame. takes his third a little faster, has more gas for tech and upgrades than metagame. well bio vs mass aoe is bad for obv reasons, you dont need to balance that. mech + ghost + viking eats toss aoe alive with equal upgrades, but as i said before the metagame right now is bio + early/midgame pressure to not get into an equal lategame. if the P has his upgrades and tech its G_G since the terran's plan to end it midgame failed (since mostly the P was better than the T). we (terran) cant be favoured everywhere with m&m&m&g, colos+templar counters it with equal upgrades and unit control since they win the range fight/position fight. thats why T loses late, and it would be imbalanced if they (we) won That makes it sound like bio should only ever work in early to mid game. But what other options are there? Mech? T3 Tech? I don't think so, and that's where I think the real problem lies. Sure terran already has tons of options throughout the game, but it kind of ends at the late game, especially in TvP for obvious reasons. It would be nice if blizzard could make some of the later tech options or mech TvP more viable without ruining balance overall.
pure bio (in the mainfights) should only work in midgame. later we should switch to mech/ghost/viking which needs tons of gas.
just look at the army value of bio vs mech if both is maxed. you cant expect to win with marine/marauder supply (6 range) vs T3 AOE (9-11 range) + 40 supply zealot warpins.
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mech + ghost + viking eats toss aoe alive with equal upgrades,
problem with terrans is that they are the hardest race to tech switch mid/late game. Ps can switch to templar tech if their colossi get killed by lots of vikings or to colossi if their HT faces too many ghosts... You cannot as a terran switch to mech once you lose your M&M ball. Sure, mech+ghosts + vikings ear toss aoe. But it takes so long to build up that unless the P doesn't scout you for 7-8 minutes, they will have enough zealots, immortals, orbs to deal with your army.
pure bio (in the mainfights) should only work in midgame. later we should switch to mech/ghost/viking which needs tons of gas.
just look at the army value of bio vs mech if both is maxed. you cant expect to win with marine/marauder supply vs T3 AOE.
Very true. But it is impossible to hold the P off for terrans to make that switch unless the P is super super passive (like remaxxing to 200/200 and then doing nothing 3-5 minutes). If they are that passive, it is probably better to go full air BC/raven/ghost. One reason why you see more BCs transition in TvT is that tank lines are mostly about position. A good tank line can hold vs a stronger force allowing you to make the transition. In PvT, if the P is more than 10% stronger, they will just roll through everything. One option might be using planetaries as siege lines, but at 3-3, protoss actually trades pretty well even vs planetaries.
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4713 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ?
And that is a balance problem because each race should have near 50% chance to win at any stage of the game.
Asymmetrical design doesn't mean one race should have an advantage at one stage of the game or another, it means that races have different tools at their disposal trough out the game but they all balance out, both in the short term and in the long term.
If these conditions aren't meet then you reduce the number of strategies and choices in the game, instead of terrans opting to go for more late game you might see them gravitate more and more towards early and mid game aggressive strategies.
And it is highly disturbing that David Kim doesn't realize this.
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On May 04 2012 18:18 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 18:11 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 18:05 mcc wrote:On May 04 2012 18:04 Jarree wrote:On May 04 2012 17:50 furo wrote:
The metagame right now favours P in lategame, but that has nothing to do with balance. P's are techning and upgrading very fast in the midgame right now, this obv leaves them vulnerable in the midgame and strong in the lategame.
It has absolutely nothing to do with metagame. Give both T and P 3-3 upgrades, 200 supply, 2k bank and 5 bases. P is heavily favored. And that is the balance problem why ? Did I say it was? I thought i said it has nothing to do with metagame. If you were not complaining about balance then second part of your post has no relation to what he said. And it actually easily can be metagame issue exactly because what you said.
He said protoss late game is stronger because they rush upgrades and tech, meaning they get them faster than terran ie. because of metagame. I proposed a situation where both players have equal max tech and upgrades and claimed P is stronger. What part do you not get? You can disagree P is not stronger in that situation, that is a fair opinion of course.
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EPT
