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On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
Do you even know what Total Annihilation is? Im sure you will google it up, but that was Starcraft's major competitor. The same arguments used against this game are the ones used against SC2.
Ughhh...."ugly graphic", "it have no strategic dephs", "it so lacks realism'? And later "Its just arcade game, not RTS'?
its rather the same arguments that Company of Heroes/Red Alert fanboys use against BW, not we against SC2. Oh, I never really liked Red Alert or Warcraft 2 when it was on a top (i was teenager than), and first thing i loved in StarCraft was...terran music and speech 
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This has got to be one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen...do YOU know anything about what Starcraft was like when it was called warcraft in space? Doesn't sound like it, because it WAS WARCRAFT IN SPACE! I love how you assume that it's some little gem that you've somehow learned and BW fans don't and actually prove just how ill-informed you really are. ![[image loading]](http://www.nerdnexus.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/starcraft_alpha.png) . There wasn't anything in that version of the game that remotely resembled what Broodwar is today. Not.A.Damn.Thing. Thank god people spoke up and and the backlash got blizzard to actually completely redesign the game engine. And no shit we started watching it after it got big in korea, this is a foreigner site, how else were we going to watch it? The internet was still dial-up and there were no VODS, anyway. The best the community got was a recap of someone who was there. and LOL at you thinking people sit around the Broodwar forum and talk shit about other games...really? FYI this website was THE Broodwar community, and only a broodwar community before the SC2 influx came in. Naturally anyone here before that may feel that this is THEIRS. It was. Most Broodwar players don't want SC2 to be a carbon copy of BW, but they don't like SC2 in it's current form SO THEY WANT TO STICK WITH BROODWAR. Why is that so hard to understand? If you're American, then it would be like if Arena football became super popular and the NFL was just a shell of it's former self. "Damn NFL holdouts, obviously they are just living in the past and elitist, dismissing and talking shit about hockey and baseball and now that the new football league is out they talk shit about that...it's just pride, man, not that fact that they think its better." Please take your self-righteous crap someplace else. P.S. Broodwar is the pinnacle of the RTS genre, please provide any information regarding another RTS game that has 1) Even been considered an esport, 2) been played for the past 14 years, and 3) Has anywhere near the infrastructure and money pumped into it from third parties.
Holy Christ, a million thanks for this post. The part about BW getting a complete overhaul solely because of fan outrage is SO relevant in today's Blizzard-knows-what's-best-for-us mentality. I've read a ton of frightning comments on TL, Youtube and Reddit that basically said "STOP TELLING BLIZZARD HOW TO DO THEIR JOB YOU PEASANT!". These people seem to be forgetting that without our bitching and moaning it's very possible that the korean pro scene would have never been created around the Starcraft that Blizzard wanted to release.
Starcrat BW fans deserve JUST AS MUCH credit as Blizzard does for the game's final version and the decade of awesomeness it spawned in Korea. And when it comes to what SC2 should look like and be like, the fans have just as much of a say as any Blizzard employee.
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On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
.And this is how every argument on the internet always starts, with absolute, 100% hyperbole. Why merely "one of the most" why not the WORST POST ever? Then you are really hitting it out in the ballpark?
If that is one of the most ignorant posts you've ever read, then its either your first few days on the internet or you are lying. Considering when your registered your account you are lying, i make a point out of this because it shows whats to come:
"hyperbole"...Pure genius!
Here, allow me to clarify my statement: One of the most ignorant posts I have ever read in the Broodwar forum.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
Take note of how LEGAsee argues here, because this is a preview of every argument he attempts to make: his only tactic is to put words into someone else's mouth. I never claimed i discovered the gem, millions of people were there as the game sold millions. But it was there when the original game came out. You werent. That does not make me better than you, but it gives me a insight into this game that you do not have. The game didnt not begin in Korea.
You first came to it once you saw the flashy studio colors of korean broadcasts, the fancy jackets and the fast talking commentators.
Take not of how Tyree argues here, because this is a preview of every argument he attempts to make: his only tactic is to make baseless assumptions. I've been playing Starcraft since it came out, too, bro! I admit, I wasn't very good. I rushed Ultralisks. But thanks for telling me that I came to the scene when I saw "flashy studio colors of korean broadcasts." Solid arguments as ever, based on well known facts pulled right from my autobiography. Which page is that on, I forget? God, of course that's when I started following the pro scene....that's what the pro scene is. There is a reason why players like Guillame and Maynard and Slayer and everyone else went to Korea. That IS where it began, otherwise it was just another fun game that surely would have faded by now.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
I know what it was, and i wasent talking about the alpha stage of the game, the actual Starcraft game you know and worship is the exact same game that was said to just be "warcraft in space", it was Warcraft with a Aliens paint job. This game was looked at the same way Black Ops is to Modern Warfare 2, that it was only different to Warcraft 2 on the surface, yet the core was the same. How wrong they were. Just like BW and SC2.
No, you don't, because it was the showing of the alpha stage that created the huge backlash and the term 'warcraft in space'. Either that or Blizzard was able to peer into the future and put in an easter egg of artanis jokingly saying "this is not warcraft in space!". I suppose they're both plausible. I'm sure that the Warcraft 2 fans that hated Starcraft for its noobification with workers not having clipping kept calling it by that name after launch.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
That is what the games haters were saying, the same vocal minority was spewing hate at the game acting all defensive and refused to accept it for what it was. Do you even know what the major argument against SC was? That you could never balance a competitive RTS game with 3 different races. This was said by the very same people who played a game that actually was never balanced, Warcraft 2.
No, it's a phrase the "vocal minority" held onto. That is not the origins of the phrase.
I admit, I don't know what the major argument against Starcraft was, fascinating if true. Regardless, I don't see what bearing that has on anything. I don't think anyone who prefers Broodwar to Starcraft 2 ever really talks about balance, that balance whining happens in the Starcraft 2 forum. Broodwar fans often just think the skill ceiling is too low with not nearly the same room for sick displays of micro to turn the tide or whatever. But that isn't important to this exchange, either. Plenty of Broodwar fans play Starcraft 2 and most certainly accept if or what it is. They just feel that what it is isn't as good, yet they still enjoy it. You make me out to be some crazy die hard with your claim I "worship" starcraft. I've played Starcraft 2 and I actually really enjoy the custom games, the editor is far more powerful that any previous game blizzard had and it was something that they did extremely well. I'm not irrational or blinded by feelings because I like Broodwar more. I am, however, going to call people out when they make incorrect statements, as I feel you have done.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
Do you even know what Total Annihilation is? Im sure you will google it up, but that was Starcraft's major competitor. The same arguments used against this game are the ones used against SC2.
Yep. You're right, though, I did need to google it since I only played it one time. So how does the arguments used against Total Annihilation being used against Starcraft 2 matter at all? If anything, I would think that it would hurt your case...I don't see Total Annihilation leagues anywhere. Google indicates that there is a tiny, tiny community around it, as with any game. The last post was 3 weeks and 4 days ago. The last post in the Broodwar forum was 4 minutes ago. I think the people who thought Starcraft was the better game were right.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
My point is that most people here werent really there from the beginning, yet they are acting as if they own the whole genre and this entire website. They jumped on the horses back when it became popular, exact same way SC2 fans have done with SC2. And that it just fine, but to berate them, while acting as if you were a part of something special and unique without knowing the real story makes you look very ignorant.
Do you know of a game called Warcraft 2? Do you know that it also had a very competitive scene? You never actually argued any of that, its like that game never existed for some Brood War fans.
I don't understand. What is there to argue? Why are you using Warcraft 2 as a starting point? Shit, why not go all the way back to the first RTS. Is that "the beginning"? I'll accept the very first RTS game as the beginning and anyone who has been onboard since then. Realistically, though, I would say that Broodwar was the beginning of this whole concept of an Esport and competitive gaming. What other game, RTS or otherwise, had multiple self-sustaining leagues with hundreds of thousands and now millions of dollars involved? Broodwar didn't take anything away from the Warcraft 2 scene, it was built entirely from the ground up in Korea. I'm sure you know that this isn't the case for Starcraft 2.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
I like the "no shit man" attitude, but you are still ignoring the fact that you started following the game when it became a hit to watch, exactly like SC2 fans.
I'm not ignoring anything. I've played the game since launch. There wasn't a scene or league to follow except Korea. Starcraft 2 has had this massive coverage since it's launch because of the giant amounts of money blizzard pumped into marketing and the success that Broodwar had to build over time. I could have started following Broodwar yesterday the relevancy of your statements is still 0.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
Yes really, have you actually browsed this forum or any of the topics? Finding a thread that dosent shit on SC2 is not easy. Even the supposed light hearted topics like Unimpressed Flash Meme is all about hating on a game. How can you even ask a question like "we dont talk shit about no other games" and then you look at the forum and its infested with it. People are more obsessed with that than anything else BW related.
More of that hyperbole you claim I'm all about. The only threads on the first page that even have anything about Starcraft 2 is 1) unimpressed flash (where it IS lighthearted fun. there are SC2 fans in there and many of the people making those jabs at Starcraft 2 play both games.) 2) post-broodwar plans and 3) BW head coaches on SC2. Seems appropriate to me. You shouldn't take people discussing what the dislike about Starcraft 2 as shit talking. Your opinion of the Broodwar forum is horribly misinformed.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
And? No seriously, and what? Does it give your certain rights here? Did i ever say Teamliquid was a Warcraft 2 site or a cookie baking site?
Seriously? You're entire statement was that you don't want this "vocal minority" to be a part of the Starcraft 2 community. Guess what, the "vocal minority" probably doesn't want the Starcraft 2 community to be a part of their community, either. This was their website and it's being taken over. You can't have many discussions in the Broodwar forums without trolls or people who just aren't thinking about what this all means to BW fans coming in and saying "Can't wait to see Flash in SC2  ". Do you not see how that could be grating?
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
Ah so its yours, and when you says "yours" you mean BW fans site, you own it? And these SC2 people should hold you in higher regard? Can you be any more condescending? This site is owned by a select group of people who have a interest in competitive RTS games, specifically Blizzard ones. It started off as only a BW site but that does not mean that people who own TL are somehow obliged to that for the rest of their lives. They can do as they please.
I've never said it's mine and I certainly don't think that Starcraft 2 players should hold anyone in higher regards. Holy shit is that you putting words into someone else mouth again? I don't know how much irony I can take.
I've only been lurking teamliquid since 07, before that I was on GG.net. I think my first post was actually just two Starcraft 2 beta keys in the broodwar forum (damn that mod that warned me for that...I still don't understand how that warranted any action). However, some people have been here for over a decade. I would say that yes, this is their community. Why? Because Teamliquid wouldn't be what it is today without the volunteer Writers, graphic artists etc. that made this place awesome. You must not understand that it isn't just a matter of which game is better. Broodwar has been a significant part of peoples lives for years and years and years, not just some casual past time. It's an entire culture that is becoming increasly overshadowed and forgotten because "in with the new, out with the old".
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
Its easy to understand, stick with what you like. But sticking with the game you enjoy is not the same as being a hateful, condescending elitist. Now is that hard to understand?
I'm really not. <3
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
I aint taking nothing, nowhere. You do not own this site, nor command anything, get over yourself. Ironic that you call me self righteous yet you start barking orders in the exact same sentence as if you were someone. But you see i wont stoop down to your level.
This has got to be the best paragraph of the year, hands down.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +P.S. Broodwar is the pinnacle of the RTS genre, please provide any information regarding another RTS game that has 1) Even been considered an esport, 2) been played for the past 14 years, and 3) Has anywhere near the infrastructure and money pumped into it from third parties. Here you go again, nobody ever said Brood War wasent and still isent the absolute best RTS game out there, its my favorite videogame of all time. You are trying to turn this into a argument you think you can win, when you are attempting to dodge the actual point.
What......?
On April 28 2012 05:50 Tyree wrote:
Its just like the Counter Strike fans who crap all over any and all current FPS games, proclaiming their own to be some sort of messiah and pinnacle of the genre, yet they totally disregard the competitive scene that Doom, Quake 1, 2 and Unreal had before hand. They dont even know who Dennis "Thresh" Fong is, nor what "The Edge" means in regarding to Quake 2 and its own scene.
Oh, that's right, I was actually responding to your claim that the Broodwar community is just a bunch of elitist assholes, just like the Counter Strike fans, who claim their own game to be some sort of messiah and QUOTE "pinnacle of the genre"
I'm not dodging anything, you just seem to be amnesiac.
On April 28 2012 21:05 Tyree wrote:
You simply have one way to argue and that is to conjure up arguments that the other person never made, you also seem very tense and irate showcasing that my supposed self righteous crap really hit a nerve with you, because if it truly was "crap" it would not have provoked such a strong reaction. But forget all that, you seem incapable to look at the point being made: Starcraft, the game you think is made of perfection, rainbows and roses, was a game that was also hated by a vocal minority, who argued just like you are now.
These people werent simply trying the game, deciding on not liking it and going on with their lives. They spent ample time trashing it and its playerbase any chance they got. They were wrong that it was just Warcraft in Space, they were wrong that the game couldnt be balanced, the irony is that BW ended up being far more balanced than War2 and War3 ever got and that Total Annihilation could not carry this game's jockstrap at the end of the day.
SC didnt need that vocal minority, just like SC2 does not need it here.
Thanks for taking the highroad, there, like you said you would earlier in the post. Like I said, it was the "vocal" ones that DID make starcraft into what it is today, Blizzard spent..3 months? completely building an engine from the ground up after the disaster of Warcraft in Space, a term derived from early showings of Broodwar and held onto far past that.
In the spirit of not turning this thread to trash, please send any further responses to PM or I won't bother responding. I don't need an audience for this shit.
User was warned for this post
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Not sure if thread about BW coaches, or internet arguments.
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Total Annihilation has the imba-op-broken Flash tank. BW has the imba-op-broken Flash. Why can't we look past the differences and celebrate the similarities? 
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On April 29 2012 06:15 Caihead wrote:
Not sure if thread about BW coaches, or internet arguments.
I'm pretty sure it's the latter.
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Core T1 units suck so hard.
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On April 29 2012 07:03 blubbdavid wrote:
Core T1 units suck so hard.
wait what? bw or sc2?
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Total Annihilation...
On April 29 2012 06:24 pschiu wrote:Total Annihilation has the imba-op-broken Flash tank. BW has the imba-op-broken Flash with tanks. Why can't we look past the differences and celebrate the similarities?
fixed it
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I just wanna remind everyone who has forgot, that starcraft is much much harder than warcraft 2. I've played both. Aside from a bit of spell casting there is almost no micro in war2. Also there are only two matchups and they hardly vary from each other compared to BW matchups. Also there are hotkeys and control groups, dont be ignorant.
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On April 30 2012 00:27 puppykiller wrote:
I just wanna remind everyone who has forgot, that starcraft is much much harder than warcraft 2. I've played both. Aside from a bit of spell casting there is almost no micro in war2. Also there are only two matchups and they hardly vary from each other compared to BW matchups. Also there are hotkeys and control groups, dont be ignorant.
Mechanically, warcraft 2 is harder than BW. Strategically BW has the edge due to race differences. (only one race viable in war2)
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On May 02 2012 16:59 Siffer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 00:27 puppykiller wrote:
I just wanna remind everyone who has forgot, that starcraft is much much harder than warcraft 2. I've played both. Aside from a bit of spell casting there is almost no micro in war2. Also there are only two matchups and they hardly vary from each other compared to BW matchups. Also there are hotkeys and control groups, dont be ignorant. Mechanically, warcraft 2 is harder than BW. Strategically BW has the edge due to race differences. (only one race viable in war2)
Not true. Mechanically BW is the most demanding game.
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United States10328 Posts
On May 02 2012 17:06 Abort Retry Fail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:59 Siffer wrote:On April 30 2012 00:27 puppykiller wrote:
I just wanna remind everyone who has forgot, that starcraft is much much harder than warcraft 2. I've played both. Aside from a bit of spell casting there is almost no micro in war2. Also there are only two matchups and they hardly vary from each other compared to BW matchups. Also there are hotkeys and control groups, dont be ignorant. Mechanically, warcraft 2 is harder than BW. Strategically BW has the edge due to race differences. (only one race viable in war2) Not true. Mechanically BW is the most demanding game.
Huh, I'm pretty sure "not being able to queue units" and "having to manually heal with paladins / manually cast haste and bloodlust" were pretty mechanically demanding?
I guess, however, that WC2 was on a square grid, which made things slightly easier somehow (???)
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On April 21 2012 10:31 GTR wrote:
fOrGG was probably the most 'luckiest' Major League winner since... Sync, back in 2002. He had the benefit of a map pool that greatly benefitted Terrans and as a team mate of Jaedong, knew him inside out.
People grossly overrate his skill level.
Taking forGG as an argument is not overrating, it is ignorance.
What I think true is that, any BW pro is a head above SC2 gamer right now in terms of pure mechanics and speed, due to obvious reasons.
What I want is to see is JD, Flash, Stork, Bisu and other stars play SC2. But I don't think it will happen 100%, not I am naive to hope some of them will do well due to many reasons.
What I am sure of is, given the necessary time for transition and the same as BW amount of mental and physical contribution, they will roll over any MVP or MKP.
Unfortunately this most probably won't happen, I have more faith in young BW players that still have much to prove. This is where are all future SC2 bonjwas are.
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On May 02 2012 17:06 Abort Retry Fail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:59 Siffer wrote:On April 30 2012 00:27 puppykiller wrote:
I just wanna remind everyone who has forgot, that starcraft is much much harder than warcraft 2. I've played both. Aside from a bit of spell casting there is almost no micro in war2. Also there are only two matchups and they hardly vary from each other compared to BW matchups. Also there are hotkeys and control groups, dont be ignorant. Mechanically, warcraft 2 is harder than BW. Strategically BW has the edge due to race differences. (only one race viable in war2) Not true. Mechanically BW is the most demanding game.
In Warcraft, you can only select 9 units in one control group. In Starcraft, you can select 12 units in one control group.
That is a 33% increase in select-able units. That is almost a 100% increase.
Noobified.
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Well, even if bw pro scene eventuallly goes cold, its been 12 years. Lets see how long sc2 lasts :D.
On another hand, bw was "dead" according to skeptics 6 times already so, who the fuck knows :D.
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On April 28 2012 05:50 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 20:33 Fragile51 wrote:On April 27 2012 20:18 nokz88 wrote:I came here if the comments from the coaches would sway some fans, but I'm sad that I was terribly wrong  People are busy still discussing whether a game is better or worse and spilling their hate all over To be honest, i wouldn't give a damn if the vocal minority that's actively debating better or worse are swayed, because those people are usually not an asset to any community anyway. This is the best post on the BW forums for a long long damn long time. When Starcraft first came out, there was a vocal minority saying it was just "Warcraft in space", goofy looking, Aliens ripoff, Warhammer 2k ripoff, generic, nothing new, not as good as Warcraft 2. Command and Conquer fans said it sucked, Total Annihilation fans said it sucked and that TA was a far superior game, and there were plenty of Warcraft 2 players who refused to even accept it (sounds similar?) The original Starcraft had a hellish development cycle, the worst of any Blizzard game bar Starcraft Ghost and Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans. It was mere luck that the game ever came out. Of course most Brood War "fans" dont know anything about that, because most started watching after it got big in Korea. Yet think they were there from beginning and that they have some divine right and privilege to disregard any and all competitive RTS games. Its just like the Counter Strike fans who crap all over any and all current FPS games, proclaiming their own to be some sort of messiah and pinnacle of the genre, yet they totally disregard the competitive scene that Doom, Quake 1, 2 and Unreal had before hand. They dont even know who Dennis "Thresh" Fong is, nor what "The Edge" means in regarding to Quake 2 and its own scene. The desire to have your own little exclusive community, where you can trash other similar games to somehow validate your the one you follow seems to be much stronger than the desire to be more open minded regarding esports as a whole and be open to new ideas and games. Its never really about the games, but more often than not, it is the us vs. them mentality. Most hardcore/competitive gamers of any genre do not posses the ability to turn that competitiveness off at times, so everything has to be turned into that, its about pride more than anything else.
I don't see anything bad in stating that the game I play is the best and the ones I don't are worse. I do tend to prove it with arguments and think that my argumentation is free from stupid irrational logic. It is my opinion and I also have a tendency to stick to it as the right one, that is hardcoded in our nature, don't you think?
I love football, when SC2 in current form looks like more of a basketball for me, which I don't like that much, so why do I need, as you say, stick to being "open" and go and like basketball instead?
I get to the bottom of things, when my tanks are shelling the opponent's base from the low ground as well as the moment I kick the ball in the upper V from afar.
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But what most important for me now as a BW fan (since we all know the transition will happen) is to believe and eventually see that SC2 is not a worse game.
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On May 02 2012 17:46 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:06 Abort Retry Fail wrote:On May 02 2012 16:59 Siffer wrote:On April 30 2012 00:27 puppykiller wrote:
I just wanna remind everyone who has forgot, that starcraft is much much harder than warcraft 2. I've played both. Aside from a bit of spell casting there is almost no micro in war2. Also there are only two matchups and they hardly vary from each other compared to BW matchups. Also there are hotkeys and control groups, dont be ignorant. Mechanically, warcraft 2 is harder than BW. Strategically BW has the edge due to race differences. (only one race viable in war2) Not true. Mechanically BW is the most demanding game. In Warcraft, you can only select 9 units in one control group. In Starcraft, you can select 12 units in one control group. That is a 33% increase in select-able units. That is almost a 100% increase. Noobified.
Lold
I have to watch it again ahahaha
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On April 28 2012 20:01 Rossen wrote:Well... I cant help but be excited for this. I feel like this will be really good, once the dust settles and everyone realises that the awesome BW personalities arent gonna go away, just beacause they switch from sc1 to sc2... .
Sc:Bw4Life
Everything else isnt even 2nd best. its 3rd. because BroodWar is #1, and StarCraft is #2 ((original starcraft))
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EPT
