Prophets Passage is my newest 2 player creation. I wanted to create something unique that hasn't been done before. With that said, I definitely feel I've shaken some things up a little bit. With all the smaller chokes and elevation changes, as well as the easy to hold bases, I feel all three races will benefit different ways from this map. The most unique thing about this map is that the main has a backdoor that is blocked by Rich Minerals.
Specs: Availability: US Map Size: 136x152 Expansions: 10 8m2g bases, 4 6m1rg XWT: Two
Easy to hold natural that has a backdoor ramped blocked off by Rich Minerals. (56 total resources). This allows you to take a fast expansion and mine out the mineral wall at a later date.
Middle has plenty of ramps to keep zerg in check, but also plenty of open space to get surrounds.
The 4th base is fairly easy to grab but watch out because it can be easily harassed by the high ground behind you.
The fifth base is actually safe and quite easy to hold. It is also farther out of the way so it could easily be sneaked.
Are those just LOS blocker going form main to natural? I feel like having 2 openings to main just isn't feasible.. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 pool..Am I missing something? Hehe I tried to edit, but you guys quoted me, it's all good. I played the map, it feels like it would be zerg favored, but not entirely sure I only played vs the computer haha. once you have 3 bases up it's way easier to hold than 2. Because when trying to defend only the main and nat, the attacker can bounce back and forth from easier than defender can.. not sure how I feel about that.
On April 30 2012 11:42 thurst0n wrote: Are those just LOS blocker going form main to natural? I feel like having 2 openings to main just isn't feasible.. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 pool..Am I missing something?
On April 30 2012 11:42 thurst0n wrote: Are those just LOS blocker going form main to natural? I feel like having 2 openings to main just isn't feasible.. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 pool..Am I missing something?
Low resource count gold minerals with LoS blockers behind the mineral line so you are not able to warp in units over it. You have to mine out the resources to allow the opening. They only have 35 minerals so I suppose you "could" 6 pool, but you'd have to bring 5 of your drones with you to be able to mine out 1 patch.
Image so you can see. It's also linked under the "Features" Section. + Show Spoiler +
On April 30 2012 11:45 SidianTheBard wrote: Low resource count gold minerals with LoS blockers behind the mineral line so you are not able to warp in units over it. You have to mine out the resources to allow the opening. They only have 35 minerals so I suppose you "could" 6 pool, but you'd have to bring 5 of your drones with you to be able to mine out 1 patch.
Image so you can see. It's also linked under the "Features" Section. + Show Spoiler +
I dunno about only having 35 minerals each. I think they should either be blue patches, so it takes 7 harvests, or increase the mineral amount. Since there are LoS blockers on the inside, it's tough to know they're working on knocking down that door, and having the drones with the zerglings makes it even more of an all-in. It's probably not as imbalanced as I'm making it seem, it's just something that would be a nasty surprise for the defending player, and nasty surprises usually aren't fun.
The rest of the map looks really cool though. I love how there are several different expansion patterns you can take, based on your race and opening. The aesthetics are pretty neat, too.
It would take a long time for all 5 drones to mine through that as well. You'd definitely have time to get zealots/marines up, even if you didn't know it was coming.
I really like the orange lines and the aesthetic as a whole. The map feels very put together.
The natural is very open... I feel like it's too vulnerable for forge fast expands and 15cc, and too easy to bunker rush. Perhaps bringing it in just a little closer to the ramp? so that you can get that partial wall off with two 3x3 buildings and protect your pylon?
The high ground in the middle is also interesting, but it means that almost all the open areas where a zerg would normally want to engage are on the low ground... just something to consider.
wonderful layout, but i think there needs to be more space to maneuver, also the rock/snow works really well in some areas but others seems like too stark.
I dont like the back door too the main... I like the idea but I feel like the size of it makes it too small to be practical. Obviously there are alot of possibilities for getting hellions or lings into the main, but medivacs and drops will come out faster, and this passage will only be opened once you have a 3rd. It seems that you can use it defensively, but I think that the entrance is too small because running your units into that small of a choke is going to be disadvantageous for you. I would like to hear your take on it tho. I love the aesthetics on this map, and how creative you are being really stretching your map to the limit. Those are my two cents keep up the inspiring work!
Are those just LOS blocker going form main to natural? I feel like having 2 openings to main just isn't feasible.. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 pool..Am I missing something? Hehe I tried to edit, but you guys quoted me, it's all good. I played the map, it feels like it would be zerg favored, but not entirely sure I only played vs the computer haha. once you have 3 bases up it's way easier to hold than 2. Because when trying to defend only the main and nat, the attacker can bounce back and forth from easier than defender can.. not sure how I feel about that.
Haha, sorry about the quoting! To be honest from my testing I was only worried about PvX matchups and that's mainly because I did feel that the low ground natural is still a little open. It's why I added rocks at one of the enterances to give it a better choke.
Also, about the attacker able to bounce back and forth easier, that's only the case if you take the backdoor expansion as your natural. Remember, unless they bring 5 workers they won't be able to get through the wall and therefore you can park your army by your lowground nexus.
I dunno about only having 35 minerals each. I think they should either be blue patches, so it takes 7 harvests, or increase the mineral amount. Since there are LoS blockers on the inside, it's tough to know they're working on knocking down that door, and having the drones with the zerglings makes it even more of an all-in. It's probably not as imbalanced as I'm making it seem, it's just something that would be a nasty surprise for the defending player, and nasty surprises usually aren't fun.
The rest of the map looks really cool though. I love how there are several different expansion patterns you can take, based on your race and opening. The aesthetics are pretty neat, too.
This is something I'm considering as well. Mineral walls haven't really been used nor tested all that much. I figured 35 is quick enough that if you want to Fast expand to the high ground expansion you are put one of your first couple workers to start to mine it out and it wouldn't take too long. Also, having 5 workers mine from the same patch does take some extra time, plus if they accidently screw up and mine from the wrong patch they are screwed. ^_^
Appreciate the comments are the expansion paths / aesthetics. I worked hard on those. :D
It would take a long time for all 5 drones to mine through that as well. You'd definitely have time to get zealots/marines up, even if you didn't know it was coming.
I really like the orange lines and the aesthetic as a whole. The map feels very put together.
The natural is very open... I feel like it's too vulnerable for forge fast expands and 15cc, and too easy to bunker rush. Perhaps bringing it in just a little closer to the ramp? so that you can get that partial wall off with two 3x3 buildings and protect your pylon?
The high ground in the middle is also interesting, but it means that almost all the open areas where a zerg would normally want to engage are on the low ground... just something to consider.
Thanks sir! As I said earlier in this post I added those d-rocks later in my testing to try to make the low ground natural a little "safer" Protoss could also have the luxury of walling off the small ramp, opening up the backdoor and taking their natural there. You could then just keep 1 or 2 sentries by your front ramp to forcefield (for emergencies!) and keep most of your army by the high ground expansion.
Also, yes most of the open areas where a zerg would normally engage are on low ground, but you'd be surprised how well Banelings, Fungal, Mutas & Brood lords work in those smaller chokes.
wonderful layout, but i think there needs to be more space to maneuver, also the rock/snow works really well in some areas but others seems like too stark.
Are you a zerg player? I feel with all the chokes it makes roach play not as strong, especially since Mass Roach play off 3 base (it's easy for zergs to get 3 base here) is very strong. I'm hoping it encourages more ling/infestor/muta/broodlord play since those are what are going to be very strong on this map.
Also, to be honest it's not meant to be snow but it does look like it too much. >_< Oh well, I'll take what I can get and I'll keep slowly working on it.
I dont like the back door too the main... I like the idea but I feel like the size of it makes it too small to be practical. Obviously there are alot of possibilities for getting hellions or lings into the main, but medivacs and drops will come out faster, and this passage will only be opened once you have a 3rd. It seems that you can use it defensively, but I think that the entrance is too small because running your units into that small of a choke is going to be disadvantageous for you. I would like to hear your take on it tho. I love the aesthetics on this map, and how creative you are being really stretching your map to the limit. Those are my two cents keep up the inspiring work!
The thing is you never have to mine it out if you don't want too. More then likely the enemy isn't going to bring at least 5 workers to mine it out either. Yes, you can block it with 1 forcefield, but with the LoS blockers & and way the minerals are set up it'll take more then 1 3x3 building. I thought it'd work out best like that, but as always I'm sure as there is more playtesting I'll figure out what works best. Maybe it can be abused since it is a smaller path but it's also a quick easy way to move from your bases so in theory, defending "should" be easier.
Make sure you manually test the warp in possibility very thoroughly at both bases. Sometimes you can drop a zealot in right at the near edge of the LosB, which would grant vision on the other side as soon as it was finished warping -> move a skosh.
Also that is plainly light colored sand not snow. ;D
I like it in general, I don't like the chokiness in the middle and at the middle bases, and I'm not sure how much the back door really adds given that the defensive dynamic doesn't change much either way if you have natural and 3rd. The natural unwallableness (that's a word!) is fine by me but I'm not sure you can convince SC2dom at large.
But all those things are cool, and worth trying out. I would just simplify those highground things with ramps on either side of middle. Shorten by one diagonal quantum and get rid of the jutting side platforms--or something. Also the holes around the cliff of the main, I would fill that in to create a little more width along that lowground channel that feeds into the base next to center. I would. (meh)
Very eye-catching aesthetics, nicely done! Quite a map to show up with.
HOWEVER, you need to test your model VERY THOROUGHLY before publishing it. 35 minerals isn't alot- an all in sixpool handles that nicely. You need to make it so that at least 10 or so harvesters are required to clear one patch. Cause If I get sixpooled with all drones....
Also- I would think about making the foreword base HY. Double also, I haven't stalked you in a while. How have you been ^^
Make sure you manually test the warp in possibility very thoroughly at both bases. Sometimes you can drop a zealot in right at the near edge of the LosB, which would grant vision on the other side as soon as it was finished warping -> move a skosh.
Also that is plainly light colored sand not snow. ;D
I like it in general, I don't like the chokiness in the middle and at the middle bases, and I'm not sure how much the back door really adds given that the defensive dynamic doesn't change much either way if you have natural and 3rd. The natural unwallableness (that's a word!) is fine by me but I'm not sure you can convince SC2dom at large.
But all those things are cool, and worth trying out. I would just simplify those highground things with ramps on either side of middle. Shorten by one diagonal quantum and get rid of the jutting side platforms--or something. Also the holes around the cliff of the main, I would fill that in to create a little more width along that lowground channel that feeds into the base next to center. I would. (meh)
Very eye-catching aesthetics, nicely done! Quite a map to show up with.
I've messed around with warp-ins for a little bit and didn't seem to be able to warp passed the LoSB so hopefully it's good. I'll have to keep testing it just to make sure. The highground pieces in the middle that you mention are actually stuff I put in my map much closer to the end of my design. At first I had it flat and I didn't like it at all. I also had it as low ground but I thought it played out worse. So, if Low sucks and Mid sucks, make it high! :D
I'll keep in mind about opening up the side path around the lowground channel. I think the only reason I have space there is because I didn't want too much low ground touching the main.
I'm glad some of it you enjoy though, it's definitely been awhile since I've had time to make a map so trying to come up with new and unique things is quite difficult. :p
HOWEVER, you need to test your model VERY THOROUGHLY before publishing it. 35 minerals isn't alot- an all in sixpool handles that nicely. You need to make it so that at least 10 or so harvesters are required to clear one patch. Cause If I get sixpooled with all drones....
Also- I would think about making the foreword base HY. Double also, I haven't stalked you in a while. How have you been ^^
The mineral wall is such a huge test at the moment especially since there aren't really any maps out there right now that use this feature. I think at most I'd Increase the minerals to 49 or 56 which would be 7 or 8 trips. I know when I made it 35, that it's 5 trips. Looking at the wiki it takes a worker about 3 seconds (2.8) to mine 5 minerals. So that's about an extra 15 seconds of time you get just for them to break through the mineral wall. To get an extra 15 seconds before a 6 pool hits you is quite a lot of time, especially since the rush distance main to mineral wall is quite long as it is (like ~190 in the sc2 analyzer)
Geez, I thought my map was already unique enough and you want me to try to incorperate golds into it as well? You crazy!
I've been great actually, super busy mon-thurs usually, but my weekends are very relaxing so I've been slowly working on this map for the past couple of them. I actually started to draw the layout of this map in a notebook during the week because I was bored lol. Stalk me anytime bud! Oh and feel free to use this map for any certain Canadian events...Ehhh?? Ehhhh??? /cough /cough /wink hahahah <3
I really like that you try new ideas. And good ones
As a Protoss player the natural looks scary to me. Your post of a Wall-in does not defend the nexus vs lings, which is at least very annoying. Oh, and don't make the forward base a gold. It will be the classic Antiga counter to FFE by Zerg.
I don't think any of the ideas is broken, per se. But it will take a lot of testing. I really hope the TL mappers are up for it!
Eh, I may kinda regret wasting my 5k post, but the proximity of that mineral blocker to that gas reminded me of a certain old BW game...
Basically, Flash used a Refinery to exchange his SCVs' minerals for gas so that they could return to mine those blocking minerals. Perhaps that may work on this map?
Although I'd definitely 6-pool with drones every single game ^^ I think those bloacking min patches should really contain more than 35.
And when I finally put the mineral wall in, I was only worried that a Terran All-in where they bring like 15 scvs was going to be the only problem. Come to find out, no one gives a crap about that and everybody is worried about 6 pools!!! I'll most likely tweak the mineral fields to have more minerals.
About the whole 6-pool argument, most protoss forge FE, so if they notice a 6pool they'll build their first cannon by their main nexus and just sacrific their pylon & forge down by the natural. Zerg breaking in the back door isn't going to change anything. Zergs can't wall in anyway so a 6 pool is still a 6 pool. The only matchup I feel it could have a significate advantage in would be ZvT but most terrans wall off the front ramp anyway and when they notice it's a 6-pool they could just move 1 marine back to the mineral wall and pretty much deny it.
But, since many people are scared of it either way, I will for sure up the mineral count, maybe double (so it takes 10 workers)
Basically, Flash used a Refinery to exchange his SCVs' minerals for gas so that they could return to mine those blocking minerals. Perhaps that may work on this map?
w00t, 5k posts. This would actually be a genius idea because yes It would work. Think of the possibilities this map could bring if tournaments picked it up. How epic would it be to see MVP build a refinery by the enemy mineral wall, confusing everybody until he starts to mine away at the wall with that 1 scv only to bring his entire force through that tiny hole. Epicccccc. :D
Basically, Flash used a Refinery to exchange his SCVs' minerals for gas so that they could return to mine those blocking minerals. Perhaps that may work on this map?
w00t, 5k posts. This would actually be a genius idea because yes It would work. Think of the possibilities this map could bring if tournaments picked it up. How epic would it be to see MVP build a refinery by the enemy mineral wall, confusing everybody until he starts to mine away at the wall with that 1 scv only to bring his entire force through that tiny hole. Epicccccc. :D
While it would be cool, it's not actually as epic as in BW because you can shift queue the mining directly between the geyser and the minerals (I think the geyser building needs to finish before the shift queue back to the geyser is taken as a harvest command, but I could be wrong -- it's been a while since I've messed with it) like 5 times. So really, with just 30 conscutive clicks, you could mine out that whole wall and not even have to keep tabs on it while you built up your army, scouted, etc.
Also, have you considered mineral patch stacking? Two mule trips and that wall is breached. If you want to force 5 trips per patch you should make them each 7 minerals or less (since they are high yield), then select them all, go to the object properties, and choose ignore placement restrictions. Then copy and paste the group directly over the first group 4 more times. This method will allow for a little more possibilty for "epic" plays since you could send 15 workers across the map and mine out the whole section in one fell swoop thereby creating a tense situation where the workers could be scouted and picked off before opening the hole. Anyway, just something to think about.
The back door isn't scary except for terran SCV pulls. The time it takes to mine an opening is more than enough buffer against any silly rushes like 6 or 7 pool. It's also significant run distance to go back there, and if they pulled workers just to mine the back door they are even more SOL when you stop their attack.
Since mules only mine 27, you already need 2 to open a small hole, or 4 to open the whole gate, so I don't think you need to stack.
If you think back to the back door dynamics on Blistering Sands [OMG that was EVER used in competitive play?!] it was bad of course, but plenty of people defended an attack they knew was going to come by splitting their army well and bouncing back and forth, using building placement to maximize the difficulty for the attacker. That was with rocks on a 2ramp, and a shorter distance between entrances for the attacker. I really doubt it will be a degenerate map feature in the metagame we have today where everyone knows how to defend anyway.
It seems to me you can fix the LOS blocker/mineral wall issue by turning one of the high ground pods into a pathable, buildable area with a ramp into the main. Then you could build a scout pylon or depot to keep an eye on the mineral wall. The enemy couldn't hurt it without a flying unit giving vision, which would negate the LOS blockers anyway.
I also agree that it's going to be very hard to have 2 bases on this map.
The map looks really nice and the idea behind the mineral-blocked backdoor is awesome, but there's a problem with the natural. The method you used to wall off is impractical: it's easy to roach/baneling bust and a single cannon doesn't cover all the mineral patches. I would suggest putting destructible rocks at the second entrance to the natural so the choke can be walled off without using the nexus.
Another concern would be opponents taking the long path to get to the third, allowing easy siege of the natural. You might want to separate the third from the natural a bit more.
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I feel with all the chokes it makes roach play not as strong, especially since Mass Roach play off 3 base (it's easy for zergs to get 3 base here) is very strong. I'm hoping it encourages more ling/infestor/muta/broodlord play since those are what are going to be very strong on this map.
