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[M] (2) Prophets Passage - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10219 Posts
May 07 2012 00:34 GMT
#41
i like the mineral block, but unsure if it will really be of any use.

but i really like the map. i think the only thing to change is make the outside natural 1 gas and 5 patches so you cant just camp off 3 bases.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 00:54:49
May 07 2012 00:52 GMT
#42
On May 06 2012 12:18 titanicnewbie wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I like this. It's turning what we were originally thinking of as the natural into a third. That justifies making it so much harder to hold.

My only concern right now is the 6th base (yeah a little late-game I know). The natural is now safely tucked in the back, and the third is right out front. But the 4th and 5th are both in a line from the natural, which leaves the 6th awkwardly stuck on the far side of the map.

Not sure if I have a solution for you right now, but I'm imagining that that 6th would be mighty underutilized...


Yeah the 6th bases were kind of added in there at the end. Honestly they could be a viable base to hold end game due to camping the xel naga watch tower so you can easily see which path they are going to attack you from. Most likely the 6th bases won't be used very often but I'd rather give the option for a base rather then having just empty space.


On May 07 2012 08:08 See.Blue wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I actually like those dynamics less than the old. With the minerals being moved, I see them coming into play much later in the game now, at a time players are likely to have that third already, removing a lot of the excitement/danger of them. I think its still an awesome map, and I havent the faintest what to do myself, but my gut reaction is that a lot of the danger is lost with the new configuration


It is the main reason why I changed them to where they are now though. To make the early game not as risky. If it was just terran and zerg I'd be fine with keeping it how it is, but since Protoss would have a very hard time expanding to the forward base I figure by doing this it gives them a "free" backdoor but you'll still have to watch out for the mineral wall.


On May 07 2012 09:14 Yonnua wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Assuming you can't gain vision past the minerals, I like the change. The backdoor's no longer an issue early game but it's a viable means of, for example, busting a FFE as zerg. The Protoss sees the mineral fields dropping and has to get cannons there in time. In principle, that's great.

In practice there are still problems. If the defending player only has the main and the back door expansion, it's faster for the attacking player to get from ramp to ramp. The defending player has to go nearly twice the distance with their units to be able to hold off the attacker. Much like the back door on blistering sands. It's getting better but it still needs some work.


You can not gain vision past the minerals, not even able to blink past them either. The thing why I kept it a mineral wall instead of d-rocks is mainly the issue you pointed out on Blistering Sands. More then likely you will only mine through the mineral wall if you feel safe enough or are expanding to your 4th. Plus, again it takes 8 scvs to mine through 1 mineral patch. Think how easy workers are to kill. Also, even if they only open up 1 patch...that's still only 1 patch which means it's a VERY tiny choke you'd have to funnel through.


On May 07 2012 09:34 FlaShFTW wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

i like the mineral block, but unsure if it will really be of any use.

but i really like the map. i think the only thing to change is make the outside natural 1 gas and 5 patches so you cant just camp off 3 bases.



This is something I've been getting feedback on quite a bit actually. A lot of people seem to think it might be too easy to turtle on 3 base. Yet I think it should be okay with how many paths there are, how many high ground patches there are, with how exposed your main is from the middle of the map. Sure you could park your army outside the ramp by your 3rd base and not have to move much, but then you still have to watch out for drops, flying units, your backdoor, etc etc. Plus since the 4th and 5th are fairly easy to grab, if you are turtling on 3 base expect the enemy to be easily grabbing a 4th, 5th or even 6th base.

Again, I'll keep games tracked and if needed to I can always reduce the mineral count on that base. (Or hell, maybe I'll make a FRB version hah)
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2115 Posts
May 07 2012 23:15 GMT
#43
Aesthetically beautiful
John 15:13
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
May 07 2012 23:25 GMT
#44
On May 07 2012 09:52 SidianTheBard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2012 09:14 Yonnua wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Assuming you can't gain vision past the minerals, I like the change. The backdoor's no longer an issue early game but it's a viable means of, for example, busting a FFE as zerg. The Protoss sees the mineral fields dropping and has to get cannons there in time. In principle, that's great.

In practice there are still problems. If the defending player only has the main and the back door expansion, it's faster for the attacking player to get from ramp to ramp. The defending player has to go nearly twice the distance with their units to be able to hold off the attacker. Much like the back door on blistering sands. It's getting better but it still needs some work.


You can not gain vision past the minerals, not even able to blink past them either. The thing why I kept it a mineral wall instead of d-rocks is mainly the issue you pointed out on Blistering Sands. More then likely you will only mine through the mineral wall if you feel safe enough or are expanding to your 4th. Plus, again it takes 8 scvs to mine through 1 mineral patch. Think how easy workers are to kill. Also, even if they only open up 1 patch...that's still only 1 patch which means it's a VERY tiny choke you'd have to funnel through.


Workers are pretty difficult to kill if you're doing a forge fast expand and have no units.

Ultimately, in its current state it comes down to one of two things:

OPTION 1 : The back-door is so easily defendable that it'll never be used. This is really boring and uninteresting.

OPTION 2 : The back-door can indeed be used for attacks at some point. because of the way the map is set up this'll have to be before the third base is taken. At this point the attacker will always be favoured and will likely be able to overwhelm the defender and win the game.

For the ideal back-door scenario you need the door to be able to be used (option 2) but it can't immediately lead to a game over, so the defender needs to be able to get between the doors faster than the attacker.
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
titanicnewbie
Profile Joined February 2011
63 Posts
May 08 2012 13:31 GMT
#45
I would agree with Yonnua about the nature of the back-door minerals.

The back-door in the original was reasonably close to the "ideal" because it was viable in the early game but offered a defenders advantage due to a closer walk distance and the high-ground pod spotting the far side. It gave the defender 2 distinct advantages: positioning and vision.
The back-door now is, in my opinion, closer to the option 2 he described. It takes a defender rather longer to move between the ramps than it takes the attacker. That negates the positioning advantage.

In my opinion, if you want to keep this mineral-wall back door idea relavent, then the key is to retool the third. Move the ramp from the main down to the low-ground from its present location to the place where you formerly had the high-ground pod. Then shift the minerals into the space left by the ramp. You might need to change the other pod with minerals to allow for better arcs on the part of the defender to make this work.

The reason this works is because it drastically reduces the walk distance between the main ramp and the mineral patches. That gives you your defenders advantage. Also, with cliffs all along the way between them, you add an additional advantage to long-range units if the attacker doesn't walk far enough away.
In terms of the third, you make it slightly more vulnerable to attack because the minerals are more exposed. But you compensate a little by allowing the main to overlook the patches. It doesn't become too turtle-y because to secure that third, your army needs to be in essentially the same place as it is in the current form.

It would make 2 base play super-easy. But realistically, it's pretty easy right now. If you want to spread things out a little more, then think about moving the whole third area a little bit farther away from the minerals and reduce the size of the main overall.
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
May 13 2012 04:23 GMT
#46
New Version up!
[image loading]

Changes:
Front natural is now 6 minerals & 1 rich gas.
Backdoor changed to make aggressor take longer to path between the two.
4th base moved, new ramp added in at middle. 4th minerals now can be harassed easily by the 5th.
5th base ramp removed. Will be harder to hold, yet easier to sneak.

New Images:
+ Show Spoiler +


[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


OP has been updated.
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
May 13 2012 06:56 GMT
#47
This is considerably different and also very interesting for new reasons. I like it, and I like it much better I think. ^^

The new ramps with rocks are a good addition for better flow in the lategame to compensate for the somewhat tight areas at the hotspots. The general twistiness of the pathways is just right for the map's style, and doesn't take it too far.

That was kind of a bold choice to add that water ditch to cut off the low ground connection to the back door ramp. But it's definitely the right call. I love the tension now between the front small 3rd (which feeds you into the center small 4th) compared to opening the back door and taking a full fledge 3rd that is farther away from the enemy but also more distant for you, and more vulnerable spatially.

The progression of expansions has a nice curve of more demanding map presence, and there are lots of interesting places for army dances or army standoffs throughout the phases of a game.

The only little thing I'd like to see changed (that I can think of)... since the towers currently don't cover the main route, it'd be nice if there was a small high ground pod where you could park a unit to watch for enemy push coming through the middle. You already have those pillars with crystals on top next to the watch tower. This makes them bad overlord spots because tower vision will just reveal them anyway. Why not make these pathable with a small ramp? That way it becomes useful tactical terrain, as well as an excellent place that gives you a lookout spot over the middle path -- like a mini watch tower, but significantly apart from the tower vision despite the proximity.

Okay I lied there is one more change except it's not a nitpick, it's pretty important. You need to adjust the choke to the backdoor natural somehow, because right now it's automatic cannon walloff spot in PvZ. Maybe the whole choke + 1-2 tiles around it should be unbuildable (but allow creep)? Or just use checkerboard LosB around there? I think I like those better than a parade of sunken depots.

Really curious to hear what other people think about the new version, nice work. ;D
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
May 13 2012 07:41 GMT
#48
On May 13 2012 15:56 EatThePath wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

This is considerably different and also very interesting for new reasons. I like it, and I like it much better I think. ^^

The new ramps with rocks are a good addition for better flow in the lategame to compensate for the somewhat tight areas at the hotspots. The general twistiness of the pathways is just right for the map's style, and doesn't take it too far.

That was kind of a bold choice to add that water ditch to cut off the low ground connection to the back door ramp. But it's definitely the right call. I love the tension now between the front small 3rd (which feeds you into the center small 4th) compared to opening the back door and taking a full fledge 3rd that is farther away from the enemy but also more distant for you, and more vulnerable spatially.

The progression of expansions has a nice curve of more demanding map presence, and there are lots of interesting places for army dances or army standoffs throughout the phases of a game.

The only little thing I'd like to see changed (that I can think of)... since the towers currently don't cover the main route, it'd be nice if there was a small high ground pod where you could park a unit to watch for enemy push coming through the middle. You already have those pillars with crystals on top next to the watch tower. This makes them bad overlord spots because tower vision will just reveal them anyway. Why not make these pathable with a small ramp? That way it becomes useful tactical terrain, as well as an excellent place that gives you a lookout spot over the middle path -- like a mini watch tower, but significantly apart from the tower vision despite the proximity.

Okay I lied there is one more change except it's not a nitpick, it's pretty important. You need to adjust the choke to the backdoor natural somehow, because right now it's automatic cannon walloff spot in PvZ. Maybe the whole choke + 1-2 tiles around it should be unbuildable (but allow creep)? Or just use checkerboard LosB around there? I think I like those better than a parade of sunken depots.

Really curious to hear what other people think about the new version, nice work. ;D


Thank you sir!

At first when I added the water I really didn't like how it set up with how I had the 4th before, so by moving the 4th and adding another 3x wide ramp I think it makes it much better, as well as still makes it "safe" to grab that 3rd.

Making the forward base a 1/2 base was just something that was mentioned a lot. You said it best by you either take the safer base but it's only a 1/2 base, or you open up the back door and spread yourself out a little more to take the full base.

Your two concerns. I'll test around with the high ground pieces in the middle and see how it would play out. I was also tempted to add some LoSB around the middle of the map to make it feel more "dangerous" if you want to take the path out of vision of the water towers. I'll keep experimenting and see how it works.

About PvZ cannon walloffs. /facepalm It's funny because before hand when I had the mineral wall there and the LOSB there it was fine, but after moving the backdoor I totally forgot about that. I'll most likely add in LoSB in certain areas so it can't easily be walled off with 2-3 pylons. Thanks for pointing that out, can't believe I missed it myself! >.<
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
May 14 2012 00:12 GMT
#49
Added LoSB by the small choke between the main & natural.

[image loading]

It takes at least 4 pylons/depots/cannons to completely wall it off. It also gives a place to hide a worker. You can wall it off with 2 3x3 buildings and 1 2x3 though (2 rax & 1 depot) (gateway, core & pylon)

Thanks EatThePath! :D
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
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