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On April 29 2012 01:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:19 Mattchew wrote:On April 29 2012 01:15 BroodKingEXE wrote:On April 28 2012 20:27 Bill Murray wrote:On April 27 2012 09:11 Mementoss wrote:
Also I think Risen is town, who just made a pressure mistake, mafia wouldn't bring that attention to themselves like that I dont think, and planning that weird tie breaker abuse seems like much. Lynch Ottoxlol before risen, if ottoxol flips goon it makes total sense RIsen is GF, if not I wouldn't loook into Risen because of the voting fact at least. I disagree with you about Risen + Ottox not being scum together, and so did Mementoss. Guess where he is? Oh, yeah, dead. Are you crazy?! Mementoss is dead why are talking to him!!! So you don't listening to the thoughts of confirmed townies? Interesting, another soft defense of ottox/risen I was about to say something like this but I accidentally hit the refresh button. And dead people's thoughts are important because it opens up the question "did they piss someone off and that person was gunning for them?"
wrong and WIFOM
dead peoples thoughts are important because we know their alignment, that is all
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@Mattchew: Mementoss's thoughts are important, but BM disagrees with his posts while mocking the death of a blue. His post implies that he wants a response from menmentoss (who he says is dead).
@johnny: This is why:
On April 24 2012 14:25 Bill Murray wrote:
I am not going to be wagoning paqman today and I will vote the next person to vote for him
He has been jumping around with his accusations the whole game without digging hard into any one case. I felt his posting started to look better toward the middle of page 2 of his filter, but these last two posts are very scummy. St. Daniels has been lurking, but the way he is doing it is really bothering me (behind our backs Zeph vote). No one is willing to pay attention to him due to how inactive (alledgedly) he is. This is a perfect cover for a lurking Mafia in my mind.
Lurking isn't good, it is a very pro-mafia behavior. I have seen posts from these lurkers that further reinforce my suspicions. If we don't look at their posts due to thinking their "too easy" targets we will never be able to find Mafia. I am looking at others posts, but as far as I can see these two are the most scummy.
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On April 28 2012 20:27 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 09:11 Mementoss wrote:
Also I think Risen is town, who just made a pressure mistake, mafia wouldn't bring that attention to themselves like that I dont think, and planning that weird tie breaker abuse seems like much. Lynch Ottoxlol before risen, if ottoxol flips goon it makes total sense RIsen is GF, if not I wouldn't loook into Risen because of the voting fact at least. I disagree with you about Risen + Ottox not being scum together, and so did Mementoss. Guess where he is? Oh, yeah, dead.
he is quoting mementoss cause he agrees with him, I am trying to play nice but you are making it really really hard to not be insulting
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EBWOP, to spell it out further, he is quoting mementoss in response to janaan or johnny i believe, because he agrees with that post from mementoss
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BK, what do you think about Ottox and Risen?
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On April 29 2012 01:24 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:20 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On April 29 2012 01:19 Mattchew wrote:On April 29 2012 01:15 BroodKingEXE wrote:On April 28 2012 20:27 Bill Murray wrote:On April 27 2012 09:11 Mementoss wrote:
Also I think Risen is town, who just made a pressure mistake, mafia wouldn't bring that attention to themselves like that I dont think, and planning that weird tie breaker abuse seems like much. Lynch Ottoxlol before risen, if ottoxol flips goon it makes total sense RIsen is GF, if not I wouldn't loook into Risen because of the voting fact at least. I disagree with you about Risen + Ottox not being scum together, and so did Mementoss. Guess where he is? Oh, yeah, dead. Are you crazy?! Mementoss is dead why are talking to him!!! So you don't listening to the thoughts of confirmed townies? Interesting, another soft defense of ottox/risen I was about to say something like this but I accidentally hit the refresh button. And dead people's thoughts are important because it opens up the question "did they piss someone off and that person was gunning for them?" wrong and WIFOM dead peoples thoughts are important because we know their alignment, that is all
Knowing that Mementoss was blue serves us nothing except knowing we only have one blue left. But knowing what his allegiances are, or any other dead person's, is what can save us this game.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Is town absolutely set on Ottoxlol today?
Or are Risen/MG/anyone else still a possibility?
It seems like we've not discussed MG at all today despite him being basically the dead layabout's strongest read for some time.
Is everyone so sure ottoxlol is scum ahead of MG?
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On April 29 2012 03:38 marvellosity wrote:
Is town absolutely set on Ottoxlol today?
Or are Risen/MG/anyone else still a possibility?
It seems like we've not discussed MG at all today despite him being basically the dead layabout's strongest read for some time.
Is everyone so sure ottoxlol is scum ahead of MG?
town is not set on anything, they discuss everyone, trying to win.
scum is tunneling me.
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On April 29 2012 03:38 marvellosity wrote:
Is town absolutely set on Ottoxlol today?
Or are Risen/MG/anyone else still a possibility?
It seems like we've not discussed MG at all today despite him being basically the dead layabout's strongest read for some time.
Is everyone so sure ottoxlol is scum ahead of MG?
PERSONALLY I'd like a MG lynch more but it doesn't look like it's going to happen :X
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:13 johnnywup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 03:38 marvellosity wrote:
Is town absolutely set on Ottoxlol today?
Or are Risen/MG/anyone else still a possibility?
It seems like we've not discussed MG at all today despite him being basically the dead layabout's strongest read for some time.
Is everyone so sure ottoxlol is scum ahead of MG? PERSONALLY I'd like a MG lynch more but it doesn't look like it's going to happen :X
Apologies if you've made a case and I've missed it. Could you link it me? Or if you haven't made it and you feel MG is a stronger lynch, could you make the case?
At the moment I'm not very comfortable at all trying to push town into lynches, given my read was so far off with Zeph.
I just have a nagging feeling Ottoxlol would be a mislynch. But I'm not confident in that :/
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On April 29 2012 03:38 marvellosity wrote:
Is town absolutely set on Ottoxlol today?
Or are Risen/MG/anyone else still a possibility?
It seems like we've not discussed MG at all today despite him being basically the dead layabout's strongest read for some time.
Is everyone so sure ottoxlol is scum ahead of MG?
I would prefer an Ottox lynch, I have found MG a bit scummy, though. I'll be leaving and won't be back before the deadline in a couple hours, I'll take another look at the cases made on MG and make my vote before I go.
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I haven't made a full on case (at least that I can remember), but I've posted things I found scummy about him here and there. My first vote today was immediately on MG, but when people started voting ottox I looked for reasons he could be scummy. I found some, so I voted him. I would like a MG lynch over ottox but no one was really expressing interest at all :\
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actually yeah all these votes on ottox are probably to misguide town. I'm gonna revote MG.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:28 johnnywup wrote:
I haven't made a full on case (at least that I can remember), but I've posted things I found scummy about him here and there. My first vote today was immediately on MG, but when people started voting ottox I looked for reasons he could be scummy. I found some, so I voted him. I would like a MG lynch over ottox but no one was really expressing interest at all :\
A number of very good mafia players on this forum told me that when you're reading someone, you should look at it from BOTH the perspective that they are town and they are mafia.
The problem for looking for scummy things is that almost everyone will post things that seem scummy at one point or another, so you will always be able to 'confirm' someone as scum if you try.
I would love to read your case on MG if you think he is scummy. If not I'm going to have to do it myself, and given I pushed the fuck out of Zephirdd my confidence in possibly leading a lynch is low.
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Yeah, if you're looking for something scummy, you're going to find it, whether it is actually scummy or not.
I'm on the same boat as you, I'm not confident in myself right now, I pushed zeph hard too.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Bleh. Guess I'll do some legwork on MG myself then 
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About to leave, so I need to vote. I've read up on MG, and I changed my mind. The cases against him are decent, it does look like he didn't really care much about the votes. It's also WIFOM, but the night kills do seem to either lead to him being scum, or if he's town, scum trying to frame him. If it was the latter, I would expect more follow-up from scum, them trying to bring up the fact that the night kills seem to lead to him. That hasn't happened, instead we're still stuck on the same topic that we've been on for the past 3 days.
##Vote: MidnightGladius
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Marv's look at MidnightGladius
Much as in my Risen post, I'm going to post the major case against MidnightGladius by layabout, and slOosh's feelings too. I also made some points at some stage but I feel they are covered better by these 2 cases anyway. Anyway, here are slOosh's thoughts:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 10:42 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:45 MidnightGladius wrote:
Personally, I think lynching marv would make a terrible mislynch at this point.
I still think that johnny is the best scum candidate at the moment, and that it's not too late to make it happen. His defense against my allegation of sheeping was to acknowledge that he was sheeping and claim that he's a bad player. How in the world are we just letting that slide?
I would also be okay with lynching VE based on his complete unwillingness to continue playing, even though I'm hesitant to lynch a D1 jailkeeper claim, ridiculously scummy play or not.
My current read on Risen is null, though it's hard to tell, because the tone of his posts is really starting to get on my nerves. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 08:36 MidnightGladius wrote:
Why do we even think BM is scum? A scum player would never blatantly disregard the game like this.
So here are MG's thoughts on the D1 main lynch candidates. He is only willing to vote johnny, and would be ok lynching VE (but letting everyone know he would be hesitant). So out of the 4 people, he says nope these guys aren't scummy I'd rather lynch johnny. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:19 MidnightGladius wrote:
..... I can't believe we just let that happen.
slOosh
marvellosity
Bill Murray
Ottoxlol
VE
layabout
Sentinel
Zephirdd
In order of voting time. I wonder how many scum were on VE's lynch? Tomorrow, we're taking a long hard look at Zephirdd. Then we get this post. VE just flipped blue. He subtly blames people for the VE mislynch, when he himself put in no effort to get people off, and actually would have supported the VE lynch himself. So what does MG think we should do next? He invites everyone to look into the VE voter list, the guy he thought was the scummiest out of the four D1 lynch candidates. There are some serious logical jumps made here. Either the candidates were all town, in which the scum would have no incentive to push the votes onto VE, or at least one of the candidates are scum and scum piled onto VE to avoid getting lynched, in which case he should be looking into who is that scum candidate. However, he suggests that we all look into the VE mislynch voter list. Could scum be hiding there? Certainly. Is it logically reasonable to start looking there? No. People, read MG's filter and tell me your thoughts. I don't like how VE played but he found something off in MG. So have I.
layabout's case contains the meat, but slOosh's comments reminded me of this comment:
On April 23 2012 09:19 MidnightGladius wrote:
In order of voting time. I wonder how many scum were on VE's lynch? Tomorrow, we're taking a long hard look at Zephirdd.
Something doesn't sit right here. Seems speculative and leading at the same time.
layabout's case:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 25 2012 06:09 layabout wrote:Bolded: things that show that MignightGladius thought that VE was scum, or supported lynching him Underlined:things that show that MignightGlagius did not actually think that VE was scum. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:24 MidnightGladius wrote:
Good morning, everyone. Yesterday's activities stretched way longer than anticipated, a friend ended up crashing at my place, and I wasn't keen on staying awake past 2AM to re-read the thread.
I'm dropping my vote on marv, because other players are looking way more suspicious. He has also started posting much better, and I think his earlier response to my and BJ's cases was genuine.
VE's claim makes absolutely no sense at all to me, and I can't see how it, or his subsequent behavior, benefits the town at all. Other players have made their cases well enough, so I'm not going to rehash their points, but VE is one of the more scummy players here right now. The only problem is, unlike LI, this claim makes no sense, doesn't advance a scum agenda, and isn't being supported by other mafia members. No one is even trying to defend him, except johnnywup, and I didn't see a scum plan out of their previous interactions. Would scum bus VE this early? It just doesn't make nearly as much sense as his actions in LI.
The other possibility is that VE and johnnywup are both scum, playing less than optimally, with one or more of their teammates lurking heavily.
In fact, the more I look at johnnywup's filter, it's pretty condemning.
Starting from the second page of his filter, he puts a lot of suspicion on Paqman, who he calls "super scummy." However, he doesn't vote for him.
He then says that Risen and St.Daniel are both scummy, raises doubts about Paqman's voting, and states that marv is looking better. He then immediately votes for marvellosity after BJ's second case. Why is johnny willing to revise his reads and immediately vote based on others' reasoning, while completely failing to push and vote for his own scumreads?
He earlier was going to post a case on Sentinel, but never did so, apparently having felt that his evidence wasn't firm enough, but he continues to view Sentinel suspiciously, and even considers voting for him at ghost's request, if he presents a case. Again, we see a pattern where johnnywup is entirely willing to sheep other players, but doesn't want to make the first move.
Johnny's reasoning for not having to post his case, "I'm being transparent, and I think my case is bad, so I'm not going to post it," is fair enough, but it leaves a pretty gaping hole in his argument: If Sentinel was scummy to him, but he couldn't make a compelling case, then what about his other scumreads? If johnny thinks Sentinel is innocent, then that must mean that he finds other players more suspicious. However, he doesn't pursue any of them! He doesn't write any cases, or ask any questions, or anything.
Johnny's voteswitch to BM comes totally out of the blue. He doesn't say anything about why he's unvoting marv, despite earlier being more sure of it than he was of his own case against Paqman. And guess what, he immediately is certain of BM's guilt... but only after others made the first move.
In between his posts where he is absolutely certain of someone being scum, he posts a bunch of not-particularly-helpful one-liners, but he hasn't done any real scumhunting of his own at all. Besides his defense of VE, he hasn't really taken an independent stance on anything. That, coupled with his sheeping, is enough to convince me.
##Unvote: marvellosity
##Vote: johnnywup MidnightGalsdius comes in at a time where players where voting for VE. He comes in a shows his support for a VE lynch. He also tells us doesn't know why VE would do what he is doing and that he doesn't think we should lynch him. Then he immediately labels VE and johnny scumbuddies and makes his case on Johnnywub. next post: Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:21 MidnightGladius wrote:+ Show Spoiler +My case on johnny is largely independent of VE's alignment. I'm voting for him, because his behavior is hesitant, except when he's sheeping someone else, and he's suddenly bold and certain. That inconsistency is what really bothers me about him.
The fact that Risen hasn't posted recently is concerning, but I found his earlier anger in character, and I want to give him a chance to respond and share his new reads before I vote for him. BH, I don't have as firm a scumread on marv as I did earlier, and I think you're tunneling him a bit too hard. As you said yourself, his more recent posts have been reasonably solid, but you disregard that as an "exception to the rule." I'm more tempted to think that, so long as his posting quality doesn't deteriorate, he's town with a weak Day 1 start. You're also concerned with his weak case, and I agree that he has a lot to make up for with his upcoming play, but I'm not convinced now that he's scum.
Would you care to take a step back and look for other possible scum candidates, or are you going to insist that you're right? It speaks for itself really, but please note that he thinks that there are multiple players that are better lynches than VE. This next post is 75 minutes before the deadline. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:45 MidnightGladius wrote:+ Show Spoiler +BJ, you're flooding the thread with duplicate posts and making it really hard for me to follow the dialogue. Yes, TL may have put a flood control on your account, but instead of posting short individual replies on multiple accounts, could you consolidate your posts and address everything at once?
Also, with regards to your conviction: what would it take to convince you that you were wrong about marv? When I voted for him, it was because his posts were fluffy, and I told myself that if he started posting more substantially, then he would be less likely to be scum. From your perspective, his later posts reflected him playing to the standard you set for him. Instead of acquitting him, you used his behavior to further incriminate him. So I ask you this, and you don't have to answer in thread if you're afraid of WIFOM or whatever, but what would convince you that marv is town? If you're absolutely certain, and nothing could shift your beliefs, then remember that this is a game of incomplete information, and that you can't possibly be sure.
Personally, I think lynching marv would make a terrible mislynch at this point.
I still think that johnny is the best scum candidate at the moment, and that it's not too late to make it happen. His defense against my allegation of sheeping was to acknowledge that he was sheeping and claim that he's a bad player. How in the world are we just letting that slide? I would also be okay with lynching VE based on his complete unwillingness to continue playing, even though I'm hesitant to lynch a D1 jailkeeper claim, ridiculously scummy play or not.+ Show Spoiler +Apparently there are no activity requirements for this game, but I still want to hear from BM before making any decisions about him.
My current read on Risen is null, though it's hard to tell, because the tone of his posts is really starting to get on my nerves. Now he is willing to lynch VE despite Johnny+other being better candidates that he thinks could still be lynched. VE has not done anything new and no new evidence or reasoning has come to light since MG's other posts. He also calls him ridiculously scummy, and places the responsibility for his vote onto VE. He also claims thinks that is is not too late for us to change who we lynch. If he believes this and he wants to get us to change who to vote for, then he is going to need to be persuasive. Why then, does he also announce that he is totally fine with lynching the person that we are set to lynch? Nothing changes my mind more than somebody that tells me that they think i should vote for somebody else but also that they support my vote and are willing to change theirs to match mine. Then he shows up and berates "us" for letting "that"(VE lynch) happen even though he showed both subtle and open support for it. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:19 MidnightGladius wrote:+ Show Spoiler +..... I can't believe we just let that happen.
slOosh
marvellosity
Bill Murray
Ottoxlol
VE
layabout
Sentinel
Zephirdd
In order of voting time. I wonder how many scum were on VE's lynch? Tomorrow, we're taking a long hard look at Zephirdd. I think MidnightGladius is one scummy dude. He is a superior candidate to the existing candidates. ##vote MidnightGladius
I am aware that gonzaw raised some of these points and that MG kinda addressed them here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14454129 . But that doesn't change the fact that his actions suggest that he is mafia. Or the fact (probably) that he is mafia
I'm sure you're all aware of how weirdly MG acted around VE's lynch - calling him ridiculously scummy, and blaming town for letting us lynch him. It's in layabout's case though and he explains it better than I will here, so just take a read. There's one thing in particular I'd like to point out from layabout's case here, because it struck a massive chord with me.
On April 25 2012 06:09 layabout wrote:This next post is 75 minutes before the deadline. Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:45 MidnightGladius wrote:+ Show Spoiler +BJ, you're flooding the thread with duplicate posts and making it really hard for me to follow the dialogue. Yes, TL may have put a flood control on your account, but instead of posting short individual replies on multiple accounts, could you consolidate your posts and address everything at once?
Also, with regards to your conviction: what would it take to convince you that you were wrong about marv? When I voted for him, it was because his posts were fluffy, and I told myself that if he started posting more substantially, then he would be less likely to be scum. From your perspective, his later posts reflected him playing to the standard you set for him. Instead of acquitting him, you used his behavior to further incriminate him. So I ask you this, and you don't have to answer in thread if you're afraid of WIFOM or whatever, but what would convince you that marv is town? If you're absolutely certain, and nothing could shift your beliefs, then remember that this is a game of incomplete information, and that you can't possibly be sure.
Personally, I think lynching marv would make a terrible mislynch at this point.
I still think that johnny is the best scum candidate at the moment, and that it's not too late to make it happen. His defense against my allegation of sheeping was to acknowledge that he was sheeping and claim that he's a bad player. How in the world are we just letting that slide? I would also be okay with lynching VE based on his complete unwillingness to continue playing, even though I'm hesitant to lynch a D1 jailkeeper claim, ridiculously scummy play or not.+ Show Spoiler +Apparently there are no activity requirements for this game, but I still want to hear from BM before making any decisions about him.
My current read on Risen is null, though it's hard to tell, because the tone of his posts is really starting to get on my nerves. Now he is willing to lynch VE despite Johnny+other being better candidates that he thinks could still be lynched. VE has not done anything new and no new evidence or reasoning has come to light since MG's other posts. He also calls him ridiculously scummy, and places the responsibility for his vote onto VE. He also claims thinks that is is not too late for us to change who we lynch. If he believes this and he wants to get us to change who to vote for, then he is going to need to be persuasive. Why then, does he also announce that he is totally fine with lynching the person that we are set to lynch? Nothing changes my mind more than somebody that tells me that they think i should vote for somebody else but also that they support my vote and are willing to change theirs to match mine.Then he shows up and berates "us" for letting "that"(VE lynch) happen even though he showed both subtle and open support for it.
layabout writes very succinctly here, everything is persuasive and to the point. The bit in bold is what I really, really agree with though. It's practically the essence of scum play.
On April 25 2012 08:33 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 08:03 MidnightGladius wrote:Okay, next time I'll know not to try reading the thread when exhausted. ##Unvote: ghost_403layabout, I'm never going to live that line expressing regret about VE down, am I? Next time, I'll be sure to just repeat everyone else saying that VE was bad, and that would be better, right? If you are going to act like that statement after VE's flip is the reason for my case and try to downplay it instead of explaining your scummy behaviour then it's clear to me that you cannot explain your scummy behaviour and you are trying to discredit my case instead. Goodnight.
MG's response to layabout is basically 'lol I should've said something different about VE amirite?' which layabout articulates perfectly. Not good.
Also to be noted are his extremely weird shenanigans with his voting on ghost over ghost expressing 2 lynch candidates and MG reading this as ghost claiming scum? Decidedly odd at any rate.
Last of all, we have had nothing from MG of late. His last post:
On April 27 2012 14:28 MidnightGladius wrote:
I haven't been giving this game the attention I should, between cohosting, work, and term papers. I can see that my play this game was been really lacking, and I just haven't been feeling my reads. I've been hedging my posts, because I honestly haven't felt the same kind of conviction with my cases.
That said, mislynching me will cost us the game. You're just going to have to trust me. The fact that a bunch of townies have been pushing for me is disheartening, but I'm sure that you will find scum trying to hammer me today.
The irony here is that no-one has been pushing MG at all. "You're going to have to trust me" is also just pap. But we've had nothing from MG since this at all.
It seems like he's seen the wagon on Ottoxlol and decided to just fly under the radar while Ottoxlol gets lynched apparently without opposition.
Are people that much more convinced by Ottoxlol than MG?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Current votes by my count:
MG -
ghost - Ottoxlol
marv -
jdub - MG
Matt - Ottoxlol
Janaan - MG
Risen - Ottoxlol
BM - MG
Broodking - BM
Sentinel - Ottoxlol
Ottoxlol - MG
St. Daniel -
Paqman -
So in fact it's 4-4 in votes. MG, marv, St. Dan, Paqman to vote. Broodking with what is a dead vote at the moment. I thought Ottoxlol had a significant lead, but apparently not.
To those on Ottoxlol - have you looked at my consolidated post on MG, are you sure Ottoxlol is scummier, and if so, why?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Anyway, at the moment I feel my gut read is MG. So
##Vote: MidnightGladius
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EPT
