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Ok so I've been doing this fast scouting and addon to factory only after i'm sure there's no 11/12/13 nex going on. BO is 11 rax 12 gas 16 fact, 17 suply and I cut one scv to make an extra marine in case of a fast nexus.
Now the problem : I see the fast nexus i wait to get 3 marines, i pull 5-6 scv's and send them with mineral clicking; vulture arrives by the time im fighting probes and the zealot and my bunker/2nd bunker is almost done. I loose 2-3 scv's ,maybe 1-2 marines but he looses bunch of probes and now I build the second bunker and start grinding the nexus . Now if he is good at defending with those 7-8 probes and the 1-2 zealots, i continue to add vultures and delay the addon to be sure that bunker is finished and i have marines inside.Usually they are decent/good so i add max 3 vultures before addon.
By the time his nexus is dead he has at least 5 dragoons, usually 6-7. He might aswell ignore the bunker and runby to prevent me from expanding. This rarely happens and i usually research mines first as i have te 2 vultures left. But the real problem is when he just makes those 5-6 goons and he pulls probes fast, instead of use them for defending off . Range is finished, bunker dies quickly and somehow I have no idea how, protoss seems to easely gather minerals in that interval so that when the bunkers are down, he can throw off 2 nexus right away.Meanwhile he has 2 to 4 gateways ready.
Some do make fast robotics and delay retaking the natural but the real problem is with those who just gather minerals, wait for range to finish and then throw off 2 nexus. There's no way to prevent that as i can't see what are they building and i can't risk getting raped by a shuttle haras w obs followup and 2 gate goons at my natural, I have to build at least 2 turrets. So if I scout his third nexus fast i still cannot do anything as i'm just adding/building/finishing my second factory and got 1-2-3 tanks at most. He gets a fairly good economic lead while i just lost scv's, build bunkers, destroyed his first nexus and have to stay on defense alert and for what ?
Any ideas on better follow up for the bunker rush ? What I'm asking is wich is the best timing atack or strategy starting from succesful bunker rush against a double expansion like that ? Double xp myself is usually too risky as he has lots of goons and a timing atack with zealots in shuttle is almost impossible to avoid without wasting minerals on 3-4 turrets at the second expo and natural. Wich if he sees he just takes another 1-2 bases cuz i'm down to 2 factories and hoarding turrets all over. A quick reply with 3-4 tanks ,couple marines and 2-3 vultures w rally factories ? By that time he has at least 7 goons and very possible a shuttle+reaver or zealots and 4 gates pumping. A 4-5 factory timing atack ? Drop harras ? Somehow it seems from my perspective of having played at least 20 bunker rush tvp's last months, that i always end up being behind. The best followup was to just add second factory and seal his natural with siege/ millions of turrets all over to prevent shuttle from ever leaving his base and then taking a very late CC. Usually the guy will 6-7 gate speed zealots and try to bust. If he succeeds he has 6-7 gateways , i have 2 ,just started mining my natural. He then proceeds to take natural and the closest 2nd expo then i have a short timing gate when my 5 factory is ready, to push and seal the deal. If not, i'm again behind...
Kind advices from more experience players, please my rank is around C terran, been like that for many seasons
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flash has followed this up with a 2 fac push with good success.
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perhaps cutting vultures early for tanks and siege. Also mine his thirds.
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1 fact double expo with mines. Get the first vulture out for harassment/scouting and addon + mines asap. The 12 nex will have later observers and you can easily hold your third.
After that: If he gets a third and stays there, you are way ahead in macro so you should do some 2-1/3-2 timing attack. If he tries to get a fast 4th or even a 5th, do a 9fact timing attack. Usually 3/4 machine shops. This doesn't require a 3rd gas.
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You could repair the bunker with scv to further delay his natural. That could buy you time for sieged tank I think.
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oops i didnt read release's post. i basically wrote the same thing
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United States9672 Posts
FlaSh basically transitions into a standard 2 base siege tank defend play while keeping bunker alive until goon is able to get it down to half health. Then, while toss attempts to double expand to catch up, FlaSh hits them with a 2 fact, or waits a bit, and then hits them with a 4 fact. Either way, toss is extremely far behind after the bunker rush.
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It seems to me your pulling 1 too many SCVs for the rush, 4 is usually the magic number, that extra 1 or 2 SCVs is gonna hurt your economy because you say that you lose those SCVs too. To me it seems like your putting too much resources into killing the nexus which in fact your killing your own economy.
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On March 28 2012 07:20 ValiantGood wrote: flash has followed this up with a 2 fac push with good success.
From what I've seen when Flash scouts 12 nexus, he bunker rushes off 1 Rax FE, and follows up with a 2 base 5 fact ebay no-armory timing. Whether or not the bunker kills the nexus or not he does this.
Against Bisu in the WCG he did this but gg'd after bisu fended off both the bunker rush and the 5 fact.
Though it still seems to work 100% of the time against human opponents.
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just BBS the guy. ^___^
On March 28 2012 05:36 terranu1 wrote:
my rank is around C terran, been like that for many seasons
I really can't pass C- for 2 1/2 years now and I doubt i'll ever reach C. Good on you
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On March 28 2012 11:29 FlaShFTW wrote: Either way, toss is extremely far behind after the bunker rush.
No, unless you kill all the probes he pulled to defend. The only thing he's going to be behind is tech, so you need to get mines right after you kill the nexus, and start mining the nat if you can and the closest expos. Just play safe behind this because toss usually tries to pull some shenanigans after losing the nexus. If not, just do a timing push if he took a third base to catch up in economy.
It seems to me your pulling 1 too many SCVs for the rush, 4 is usually the magic number
No, 4 is not enough. You need at least 5/6 SCVs to do your bunker rush. When you arrive with your marines at his nat, you usually have 3 marines (+1 coming and the vulture). Considering you need one scv to build the bunker, it leaves you with 4-5 SCVs to attack, against at least 1-2 zeals + a dragoon + the probes.
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On March 28 2012 11:30 Zariel wrote: It seems to me your pulling 1 too many SCVs for the rush, 4 is usually the magic number, that extra 1 or 2 SCVs is gonna hurt your economy because you say that you lose those SCVs too. To me it seems like your putting too much resources into killing the nexus which in fact your killing your own economy. Pros do take a large number of scvs sometimes. Like vs z they do the rush in a more conservative manner with few scvs, but against protoss they sometimes take 6-7. Even if you end up slightly behind in economy, having a defensive position in protoss nat and easy ability to follow up with mech is a massive strategic opportunity and worth the sacrifice.
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Ok so reading all these posts it just crossed my mind this, that i pull back all the scv's well, besides 1, after the nexus is down . Maybe that's giving protos way too much space to recover soon. Also yea, i rarely mine his third, i'm more concerned on a quick reply on his side so i mine my natural and my third if i take it. Still pulling less that 6 scv's makes it very easy form him tot defend ; pulling 6 delays alot my CC, yet it's better than giving the nexus big chances to survive.
Recently I saw Best vs Classic I think, where best 12nex, Classic bunker rushed but wasn't able to take it down and yet he still double expanded . At first I thought " this is madness"...Best will just reply with those 7-8 goons and he'll loose both third and natural but then Best just sitted there with no intentions of crossing the bridge ... was that the correct decision ? or was he too afraid to move out ? Either way, the game turned out to be a 30 minutes long macro game just mainly because Classic wasted too many vultures on nothing.. Ima go play only tvp alot and keep that bunker alive a bit more to see what happens t.t
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What Flash does always is first he makes sure to take down the Nex. When he knows that the nexus is going down he pulls back most scvs and he retreats with the rest of his army when toss have a overwhelming amount of units. Then he always goes for a 4 factory push and finishes the game. I have never seen it fail. It's pretty much impossible to prevent a contain. You need a shuttle and epic micro, but that's why you bring a few scv's with the push and build turrets, and always bring a few marines as well when you're doing a 2 base push, because unlike for 3 base pushes you shouldn't invest in any goliaths. While moving out, or during the contain you add up to 5-6 factories. Try to scout for 3rd bases after setting up the contain, and then take out any probes there. It's not really necessary to take out that nexus, since he can't reinforce. Focus on taking out probes, his army and gateways.
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United States11390 Posts
On March 28 2012 13:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 07:20 ValiantGood wrote: flash has followed this up with a 2 fac push with good success. From what I've seen when Flash scouts 12 nexus, he bunker rushes off 1 Rax FE, and follows up with a 2 base 5 fact ebay no-armory timing. Whether or not the bunker kills the nexus or not he does this. Against Bisu in the WCG he did this but gg'd after bisu fended off both the bunker rush and the 5 fact. Though it still seems to work 100% of the time against human opponents. The HBR game is a bad example to use anyways.
Distance is too long for bunkering and when your choke gets pylon'd, the vulture gets there way too late.
Then, Flash follows up with a push that was too late to ever do anything and only looked as "close" as it did since Bisu was going 2base arb. If Bisu had opted for a less tech heavy followup then he would have made Flash look like Light.
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You know it wouldn't' hurt just to browse a few vods and see what pros do as a follow up to a bunker rush. At some point your going to have to learn how to answer your own questions so you might as well start now.
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On March 28 2012 19:34 terranu1 wrote: Ok so reading all these posts it just crossed my mind this, that i pull back all the scv's well, besides 1, after the nexus is down . Maybe that's giving protos way too much space to recover soon. Also yea, i rarely mine his third, i'm more concerned on a quick reply on his side so i mine my natural and my third if i take it. Still pulling less that 6 scv's makes it very easy form him tot defend ; pulling 6 delays alot my CC, yet it's better than giving the nexus big chances to survive.
Recently I saw Best vs Classic I think, where best 12nex, Classic bunker rushed but wasn't able to take it down and yet he still double expanded . At first I thought " this is madness"...Best will just reply with those 7-8 goons and he'll loose both third and natural but then Best just sitted there with no intentions of crossing the bridge ... was that the correct decision ? or was he too afraid to move out ? Either way, the game turned out to be a 30 minutes long macro game just mainly because Classic wasted too many vultures on nothing.. Ima go play only tvp alot and keep that bunker alive a bit more to see what happens t.t
If the bunker rush fails, you're going to be really behind in economy so expanding twice is the correct answer. As I said, his tech is going to be late, so that leaves you with a slight window to build up your defense. Since his obs are late, toss doesnt need to kill you right after the bunker, because he's already in a good position and he's not going to lose stupidly goons to your mines.
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If you killed their nexus, why in the world would you double expo and give the opponent the chance to make an absurd comeback? If you took your natural in a timely manner then you would be ahead or at worst, slightly behind depending on how many probes he lost and how many scvs you pulled. Even in the case you fail to do enough economic damage to him, double expanding afterwards should lead to you losing because there's no way you're going to defend a double expo when your economy was so stunted while his wasn't.
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destroying 12 nexus doesn't really make it impossible for the protoss to make a comeback, but it's definitely better than terran having protoss to get away with 12 nex. it really depends, on certain factors: how many probes you killed during the attack, did you get a chance to scout the protoss, can you carry out a proper push etc. If you killed lots of probes, don't just seat there and go late game...do a quick 2/4 fact (tanks/marines/bunker/ebay-turret or tanks/vulture with mines). if the protoss was smart enough to realize that he can't defend and pulled all his probes out, leaving you with only the nexus, i'd probably just go late game...only if you're confident in your macro game and defend against reaver or some weird shit. protoss can do real nasty shit vs terran. honestly, don't do what flash does. most of the things he do is because he's flash.
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On April 03 2012 00:44 koreasilver wrote: If you killed their nexus, why in the world would you double expo and give the opponent the chance to make an absurd comeback? If you took your natural in a timely manner then you would be ahead or at worst, slightly behind depending on how many probes he lost and how many scvs you pulled. Even in the case you fail to do enough economic damage to him, double expanding afterwards should lead to you losing because there's no way you're going to defend a double expo when your economy was so stunted while his wasn't.
I was always under the impression that the double expo response to 12 nexus was done without the bunker rush, with you relying on very fast mines to contain the toss while you take a fast 3rd. The time you have without a bunker rush to slow you down to secure your 3rd is already limited, so I don't know if double expo after a failed bunker rush would work out so well.
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