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You forgot the best poll option, too good for zerg, but still better for the game.
I think that it will give too much of advantage to zerg in ZvP, but that overall the game will improve by a greater margin than this imbalance grows.
But I do agree that ZvP blows to play as protoss, I don't want to say it's imba, just not very many options available.
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On March 19 2012 19:56 Megakenny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 19:16 AxUU wrote: I've been quite happy with all the maps except Xel naga is possibly the worst map ever made. Xel'Naga wasn't the greatest, but its definitely not the worst map to ever be on the ladder. it was metalopolis. 33% chance of smallest map in game, 33% chance of mediocre map 33% chance of bad air dominant map.
as for playing PvZ, since i play both races i kind of think the matchup is balanced. but i guess i have a very unique perspective.
i truly think FFE -> stargate play -> third and robo for a couple immortals and warp prism and observers -> fleet beacon + archives for pheonix range + storm . and then get support bay as game gets late for collosus and warp prism speed. is what will be the future and basic standard of PvZ, it flows very well, responds to the best responses of zerg at any point, requires a bit of micro skill to maintain the lead, and always flows in the direction of more and more gas heavy units. you expand at the safe points of the game easily.
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Because of the large amount of two base timings and the map-shrinking warp-in mechanic, I don't think bigger maps are necessarily better for Zerg against Protoss.
It's not like Z can triple expand or anything. The double expand before gas play is standard but it also seems to be quite well figured out by Protoss players.
I don't think map size has much to do with the matchup as long as the map isn't too small. My problem with the matchup is more with that the Zerg, at a certain point, simply cannot engage the Protoss army which leads to way too many base races and "attack and hope" counter-attacks. Just think of ZvT. Even though there are times to avoid the T army, Z is usually able to engage and the outcome is based on numbers, micro, maneuvering, etc. No amount of micro will help when slamming your army up against a P deathball. I guess that's a topic for a different thread though.
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I think it's perfectly fine. Protoss still has a variety of options, it's up to the player whether or not the game is nr20.
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Judging by the posts it looks like I am one of the few people who still enjoys watching this game...
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6 mineral maps are the future :3
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lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread.
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I see some Zergs saying they can't beat a Protoss deathball if the map is too big and too easy to take expansions on, but all we've seen happen so far in pro-level PvZ is Zergs failing to get hive tech in time (which even David Kim and Day9 say is unbeatable) when Protoss players defend mass roach attacks perfectly. The only danger in ZvP, IMO is failing to scout an all-in. If Toss takes a fast third you can kill him (if he isn't Huk) with mass roach pretty easily, or go for faster hive tech if he's going expand plus power-up to deathball and just build a few less roaches.
This is not a balance thing, btw, it's just Protoss needs to practice FFE into Stargate into third play, IMO. It requires a lot of multi-tasking, but now that there's a way to not die to mutas, it'll end up being quite strong.
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Rocks would actually fix the problem of zerg getting away with 4 minute thirds
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On March 19 2012 18:50 Exigaet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 18:38 Manit0u wrote:On March 19 2012 18:21 darkscream wrote:The future Is that the SC2 version of Nostalgia? The layout is more similar to Match Point. Except that the third is a mineral only and the 3rd gas is too far away from Zerg turns it into a Zerg unfavoured map xd The type of ramps which allow/constrict army movement are similar though.
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On March 20 2012 07:58 emc wrote: lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread.
Sssshhh!! Let his fans believe he invented everything...
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On March 20 2012 08:38 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:58 emc wrote: lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread. Sssshhh!! Let his fans believe he invented everything...
No fan has sayd he invented pool, hatch, hatch. But what he did invent is the "Stephano style" (that many zergs now try to copy) And what is that? Its the gas timings and upgrade timings and thats why he is very special
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On March 20 2012 08:44 Benjamin80 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:38 sitromit wrote:On March 20 2012 07:58 emc wrote: lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread. Sssshhh!! Let his fans believe he invented everything... No fan has sayd he invented pool, hatch, hatch. But what he did invent is the "Stephano style" (that many zergs now try to copy) And what is that? Its the gas timings and upgrade timings and thats why he is very special
I didn't say he invented it. I said he deserves credit for the style being popular, which he does!
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On March 20 2012 08:44 Benjamin80 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:38 sitromit wrote:On March 20 2012 07:58 emc wrote: lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread. Sssshhh!! Let his fans believe he invented everything... No fan has sayd he invented pool, hatch, hatch. But what he did invent is the "Stephano style" (that many zergs now try to copy) And what is that? Its the gas timings and upgrade timings and thats why he is very special
Oh please, those gas and upgrade timings and their 10000 variations have been around for a long time, and were around for a long time before anyone even knew who Stephano was. And there's nothing fixed about them, everyone has their own timings, based on what they scout and what they think they can get away with. Even Stephano was saying in his interview the other day, that he doesn't have specific timings about when he puts down his Roach Warren etc, that he goes by feeling.
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On March 20 2012 08:53 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:44 Benjamin80 wrote:On March 20 2012 08:38 sitromit wrote:On March 20 2012 07:58 emc wrote: lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread. Sssshhh!! Let his fans believe he invented everything... No fan has sayd he invented pool, hatch, hatch. But what he did invent is the "Stephano style" (that many zergs now try to copy) And what is that? Its the gas timings and upgrade timings and thats why he is very special I didn't say he invented it. I said he deserves credit for the style being popular, which he does!
Maybe if you're following only the European scene, yeah, maybe then you can credit him for making it popular.
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On March 20 2012 08:44 Benjamin80 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:38 sitromit wrote:On March 20 2012 07:58 emc wrote: lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread. Sssshhh!! Let his fans believe he invented everything... No fan has sayd he invented pool, hatch, hatch. But what he did invent is the "Stephano style" (that many zergs now try to copy) And what is that? Its the gas timings and upgrade timings and thats why he is very special He didn't invent that either, he just popularized it. There is a thread somewhere on TL of my build which is a very early version of what stephano does, but the core concepts all exist in my build, i just had a much safer less macro based opening, because steppes of war was just out of the map pool when i was doing it.
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A good part of it is blizzard deciding to incorporate excellent non-blizzard maps.
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3 hatches aren't the problem with these macro maps, it's roaches. They're so damn cheap, you can just sit and drone like mad without having to pool many resources, then just max out on them as fast as you can inject.
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On March 20 2012 08:59 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:44 Benjamin80 wrote:On March 20 2012 08:38 sitromit wrote:On March 20 2012 07:58 emc wrote: lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread. Sssshhh!! Let his fans believe he invented everything... No fan has sayd he invented pool, hatch, hatch. But what he did invent is the "Stephano style" (that many zergs now try to copy) And what is that? Its the gas timings and upgrade timings and thats why he is very special He didn't invent that either, he just popularized it. There is a thread somewhere on TL of my build which is a very early version of what stephano does, but the core concepts all exist in my build, i just had a much safer less macro based opening, because steppes of war was just out of the map pool when i was doing it.
Ok, Prince keep beliving that.
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There's a limit to how big maps can get. No matter what, you aren't going to saturate more than 3 bases. And another point is that taking more bases greatly increases the surface area you have to defend. Unlike BW, it's too difficult to hold large areas with few units. Even Terrans can't defend 2 fronts at once with all their tanks and PFs against a concentrated attack. Big maps have no place in SC2.
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