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On February 21 2012 18:47 DoYouHas wrote:I would like to add one observation of my own to your case against zelblade, matt. Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 23:27 zelblade wrote:
Im posting my reads in case I die tonight. I would have prefered posting this closer towards the end of night, but am posting it now as I have school tomorrow and need to go sleep now, and will not be online from around now to about 5.00 KST (+8).
Why did zelblade feel the need to point out his fear about dying last night? If he is a townie then he should realize that he was not active, trusted, or influential enough to be anywhere near the top of the mafia's hit list at this point. This leaves me with 2 possibilities. The first is that he is overcompensating for his knowledge that he won't be hit by posting his fear. The second is that he is blue and slipped up. I wouldn't even post this analysis except for the fact that I think the former is much more likely than the latter atm. Good Luck
The reason why I did this is simple. Someone (dont really rmb who atm and dont really wanna go search for it) called me out for not giving my reads during the night last game in NMMIII. He than went on to use such a point to attack me - saying that I didnt post my reads because I was mafia, and that I didnt post them because I knew I wouldnt die. I didnt want to repeat this, and as such posted this.
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Um, ok regarding my thoughts on trackdoor.
You know how I like to find little clues here and there and prove them wrong, right? That's my scumhunting tactic.
Well after examining trackdoors filter I found out there's not even one and I mean zero, nada posts with substance.
It's 100% fluff.
What he likes to do, is correcting other people's gameplay(mine,gums,blades,midnights,echellons, you get the point).
Most of his posts are like "Dude I don't like x aspect of your posting, can you do y?" then drops the pressure on his target/s.
Way to appear constructive in the most terrible manner there is.
He made 3 big posts in this exact manner.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2012 01:59 trackd00r wrote:Ok, so I've been reading the thread for a while and taken a look to the filters. @jaj22: Regarding in the comparison of those four players in NMM3, Their metagame has been similar so far, with a very few exceptions: -Sloosh has been very aggressive against EcheleonTea after he made an indirect scum claim (not sure if he was kidding still). The discussion lasted quite a bit with lots of attacks against each other. I'm not missing that attitude from sloosh, but I still expect more from him as town, by pulling off cases and encouraging everyone to participate, opposed to pick off a single target and turning it into a semi-heated talk. Helping us by posting the filters (thanks btw) and giving some general advice is nice to hear, but that fight left me with a little drop of doubt. Anyways, I somewhat understand that he was trying to defend from the first claim and in that case, it's the right thing to do. Looking good. -DoyouHas seems to be pointing the town to the right direction: taking the confidence to be the first to post (BUT last newbie mafia the first poster turned to be scum, with the difference that it was just fluff), gathering information and making his stand clear to everyone. Seems very pro town from me, the same way he did it in NMM3. -MidnightGladius has somewhat posted in the begging of the game. However, he does still have that flaw present in the past game, which is to make useless calculations and proportions about the mafia/town ratio. I feel that doesn't really contributes much to the dialogue. His next post have been better though, analyzing and commenting about the Echelon-sloosh clash and the not that succesful plan of gumshoe. I hope he keeps like that. Important to mention that those 3 players had blue roles in NMM3, so looking through their posts in the next days can make a clearer picture of them and their attitude to everything in general. -Zelbalde has only posted once, giving advice to us and apologizing. This was his biggest flaw last game. We know that you are a busy person zelblade, but posting just once is fine, instead of refilling your posts with more 'sorry' and making you either difficult to read or a scum candidate. Well, that's all regarding the past players, but of course we need to take look to the rest... Gumshoe did not had the best start ever in a mafia game. That first post was just flashy and not very elaborated. As Echelon said, it could be interpreted as an attempt to derail the discussion. This thing drew my attention quite a bit: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:36 EchelonTee wrote:
Show nested quote +
I would like it if you divided your walls of text into paragraphs; it took me a few to fathom your post, when I realized you're not saying anything. K very simple I wanted to see if any voting patterns formed within the poll It was like a lynch simulator But less than 12 people have voted in the pole therefore any conjecture regarding any mafia patterns is at the moment useless. Because it's possible that none of the mafia voted given that town thinks the poll is stupid and just posted on it randomly or trolingly. Discredit it until theres twelve votes or just discredit it period if you so please. That is all. That ridiculously excessive action regarding to divide your text into paragraphs makes you look fell very uncomfortable and desperate to get out of that situation. I'll take your plan as a newbie mistake, but that last post can draw suspicion... In my opinion, we should take a look at Steveling posts: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 10:50 gumshoe wrote:
Hi everybody! Im the friendly neighbourhood gum on your shoe! Today I come to you with a plan that'll hopefully shed some light on the certainly vile nature of the scum infesting our sacred house...OF GAMBLING! The plan is a simple anonymous poll asking wether your a townie or a scumie. Now in the case of the townie there is no risk whatsoever in voting townie, on acounta a) you are a townie and b) no one can say otherwise cause your voting anonymously. In fact I very much so ask that you don't say which one your voting for or wether or not your even voting at all. All I ask is that if you're a townie vote townie, or don't vote, please don't troll and say your mafia I REPEAT NO TOWNIES VOTE MAFIA, IT SHALL BE THE END OF US ALL!!!!!! This only works if all the townies voting vote townie so please do so if your a townie. If your mafia feel free to vote as well, in fact the whole purpose of this exercise is to see if you as a group abstain from voting, vote as you please, or all vote townie. This is an experiment to study the mafia and I promise to only do this once, so whata ya say newcomers! Watcha gonna be? I'd just likely to repeat one last time there is ABSOLUTELY no way I or anyone else can ascertain your alignment through this vote, so please give it a shot, it might very well teach us something useful.
Poll: Anonymous vote: are YOU mafia?
Mafioso (16)
80%
Townie (4)
20%
20 total votes
Your vote: Anonymous vote: are YOU mafia?
(Vote): Townie
(Vote): Mafioso
I loled soo hard reading this. As for me, I played one more game of mafia, but it was the biggest fail human kind has ever witnessed. There were 80 players in it, and it ended with the scum offering a draw, cause the city was that bad, T_T. I was a towny needless to say. Here's the link, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690I think I'm with jaj on the lurker lynching. Since unless some serious slips happen it's our best bet for scumhunt. On February 17 2012 11:25 jaj22 wrote: + Show Spoiler +
@Gumshoe: Did you get some RL buddies to spam your own vote, just in case it was accidentally useful?
@Steveling: I see you lynched Palmar on your first day. Not the greatest start to a mafia career. Fortunately we don't have any awesome scumhunting veterans in this game. Or mayors.
Yeah, that was ...unfortunate, Q_Q. But, I did have the best scumreads based on clues in that game. Well that was all I could do so I spent a lot of time into these. Also in my defense all the towny veterans where cockfighting each other so it was impossible for a newbie to tell who was what. On February 17 2012 11:55 gumshoe wrote: Show nested quote + + Show Spoiler +
I apologize as well. This was just a random shot to start off the night, I mean theres really nothing to discuss until something happens and it beats just randomly accusing people, but ill try not to do something like this again... for this game at least!
Just an idea, if you want this to work in future games, I think you need to post a clarifying post before the poll-post, something like a preemptive strike, so you get full cooperation from townies and state the purpose. For example, I voted scum on the poll before I even read it just to troll, T_T. There is barely anything helpful on those posts. Not really contributing . I expect you to post more or my suspicion to you will rise. That's it for the moment. I'll be checking again the thread in a couple of hours. My absence in the past is just sleeping. As may notice, my time is roughly the same as EST, so I'll be up for deadlines and lynches. And sorry for the bad formatting @ spoilers >.< I'll PM a mod later so I get some help lol On February 18 2012 06:28 trackd00r wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 05:20 Steveling wrote:
Ok, just woke up and caught on the action.
So, my view on the whole thing is that we should push for a no lynch day 1.
The reasoning: We are close to the night, very close actually and we have zero solid cases on anyone.
Yes mannerkiss's weird 1 liner is scummy, also both eche and sloosh became defensive too fast and yes there are some lurkers as well. Nothing we can make a strong case on.
But chanses are that we are probably gonna misslynch day1 with the current situation.
So the way I see it, we either push for a lurker lynch or a no lynch. And with a no lynch we promote more discussion without losing an unlucky towny, more discussion always benefits the town.
What do you guys think?
I'm sorry Steveling, but I definitely think that no-lynch is no no. We are not close to night. We've only had played for 21 hours and that's less than half of the time. We still have plenty of time to build a strong case on anyone. There have been several stances where we could gather information and I know that we can use it to push out a lynch. If it turns out mafia, great. If not, we will see the bandwagons and those who are dodging the cases to make a good and hopefully successful lynch in the second day. Well, you have posted much more content than you did it on your previous post, but I insist, I disagree with a no-lynch. Gumshoe, sometimes I think that you are going more pro-town, but in some other instances I just don't understand your intentions. Even you manage to contradict your self: Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 13:36 gumshoe wrote:Early reports! All very preliminary but hopefully it'll give everyone an idea of where some townies stand and where some lurkers don't. blae - absent but has an alibi(by alibi I mean he said before game that he would not be especially present day one) Alderan - Absent no alibi Ech - present but slightly suspicious ) : Do you has - present has contributed somewhat(a single post against the word of Ech) no basis for suspicion manner kiss- has presented himself but has not yet contributed to discussion. No basis for suspicion steveling - is present has contributed to discussion does not seem suspicious.track door - has made himself present has contributed somewhat to discussion no reason yet to suspect midnight- is present has contributed , (is mean to me but rightfully so )  no reason to suspect as of yet Sloosh - has contributed, acted out only to defend himself, does not seem suspicius Janaan- is absent no alibi tk hawakins- is absent no aibi dimmuKlk- is absent no alibi zell - is absent no alibi jaj22 - is present, is also somewhat mean but justifiably so as far as I can tell, his negative tone is striking negative but not yet suspicion worthy. Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 05:09 gumshoe wrote:
Now for stance number two! This ones about the lovely poll!
Unlike the topic of lynching lurkers, nearly everyone( with the exception of manner kiss and a few other lurkers) has stated an opinion on this matter, heres the breakdown of where everyone stands. Fore warning I'm a lot less objective here so take my opinions as you will.
Thinks I'm the nubbiest of noobs:
Blae(not much to say, just seems like he wants to move on from the poll which isn't really what a mafia would want)
Janan (just disregarded my poll and moved on, not very suspicious behaviour)
Steveling( hasn't commented to much, posted rather jokingly in response to my poll... Almost as if he wasn't worried about the prospect of me being mafia... Steve needs to post more.)
Midnight Gladius (didn't think I was mafia, not a suprise gladius dosent seem to take many risks)
TKHawkins( hasn't said much)
With this, I really want to make you think more carefully about you post. You say that Steveling has contributed to the discussion, when he actually didn't really at that point (he even loled at your poll) and then you suddenly realize deeper into the game that he hasn't commented much? I'm letting of the suspicion of you but please, please, think carefully every post you make. Instead of replaying to every post, try to start a case or at least draw your lynch candidates in a clear way. I swear that I can't even understand some of your posts, and not only to me, but all the town right here. For the moment, i'm lifting my suspicions about you and Steve I need to keep checking the filters and try to build up a strong case. There have been a lot of situations going on here and I'm starting to lose focus >_<. Expect more posting from me, I will. On February 18 2012 11:39 trackd00r wrote:I can't explain how tiring is to re-read like 5 times every filter. I haven't thought of a good case yet but some posts are revealing alignments and behaviors of each of you. I have no other option that expressing me my reads. Let's start Steveling: For a moment, I thought that you would have a more cooperative attitude towards the thread, but the only post which I've seen of content is this one: Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 05:20 Steveling wrote:
Ok, just woke up and caught on the action.
So, my view on the whole thing is that we should push for a no lynch day 1.
The reasoning: We are close to the night, very close actually and we have zero solid cases on anyone.
Yes mannerkiss's weird 1 liner is scummy, also both eche and sloosh became defensive too fast and yes there are some lurkers as well. Nothing we can make a strong case on.
But chanses are that we are probably gonna misslynch day1 with the current situation.
So the way I see it, we either push for a lurker lynch or a no lynch. And with a no lynch we promote more discussion without losing an unlucky towny, more discussion always benefits the town.
What do you guys think?
After that, you only attacked gumshoe, targeting mannerkiss with no reason whatsoever and post content less posts regarding lynches + random fluff. I'm expecting a lot more of you. You have been reading the thread long enough to build some accusations. EchelonTee: What's with the over aggressive and 'flashy' way of posting? I thought that after your talk vs sl0osh your posting style could have changed, but instead you post short lines which clearly lack a basis. My suspicion towards is raising because we don't need these kind of posting here. It looks like you want to work by your own. I hardly see any attempt of trying to lead the town to a healthy discussion. Instead, you are creating a confusing atmosphere to us. What is your plan? Which are your goals? Your intentions are not very clear... Probably the most confusing thing you did in the whole game is jump to vote at MG just after jaj22 opened a case against him. Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 09:49 EchelonTee wrote:On February 18 2012 09:47 MidnightGladius wrote:On February 18 2012 09:42 MannerKiss wrote:
Sorry i've been absent, work related stuff. Trying to catch up on the thread.
Doyouhas pretty strong townie feeling to me.
gumshoe - trying my best to overcome some scummy feeling from the earliest post, but it seems to have cleared up a little since the poll.
Dimmuklok giving me the strongest scum vibe of all so far, (and not just because he's aggressive toward me).
ET - also giving off a townie feeling
i'll catch up on everyone else when i get home this evening Welcome back! The last we saw you, DYH was your first scumread. Now, he's "pretty strong townie"? He was trolling, most likely. You are not. ##Vote MidnightGladiusmore after these messages! Seriously? No reasoning? Not any argument behind? Please, take a look to his behavior. I find it really scum and definitely NOT pro-town. This also applies to your earlier stand against sl0osh. MidnightGladius: You are in the very edge of what I consider constructive posting and what is just repeating what others said. I look you more to the path of constructiveness, but I'm expecting more about you. Your posting was slightly better in NMM3, although limited still (you were vig that game). Be a little more aggressive, but that's all. DimmuKlok: Please post more. You have only targeted the most obvious players at that moment. Also your 1st and 2nd were very fluffy. If you don't contribute more you will get targeted. Alderan: He looks very town for me at least. You made your stand clear from the start and you are pressuring Dimmu. Looks very neat so far. Mannerkiss: When you get back home, you'd better have good reads/accusations because your absence is really hurting us. Your semi analysis in your last post targets common players as well. I want to see more. jaj22: I don't have a clear picture of you yet You have been replying a fair amount of posts and looking forward information. I wouldn't vote for MG that early though, but it's up to you and we'll see how things come into the light after some hours. blae000: Perhaps you've only have made a few posts, but they are good quality ones. He looks to have good intentions. I would like to read more about him though. TWhawkins This has been his only contribution so far: Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 13:56 TKHawkins wrote:
Welcome.
First game on this forum. Anyway, I don't think Gumshoes poll is scummy. It's more likely he just thought "he I wonder if this idea would work." Clearly the answer is no and he didn't really think it through. Seems like more of newbie attempt at something more then anything else. I'm sure the obsever quick thread is already LOLing hard at us. I laughed too (and didn't vote since I hadn't known the game had started).
As for the policy on Lurker hunting, it's obviously a bit early to call people lurkers since many people might not even know the game has started yet (though definately not too early to discuss how to handle lurkers). It is best not to go after lurkers right away. The mafia generally aren't going to be completely inactive at the start. Rather, they are going to try to blend in. Scum post a reasonable amount, but don't contribute.
And finally, the Sl0osh vs Ech thing, I do think it's suspicious for Sl0osh to be acting defensive already. We need to hear more. Please, don't be shy. Come with some accusations. Your posts somewhat seem to you to look interested, but your post count says to opposite. Janaan: Hard to read. He has good intentions and makes good points, but I still i want to hear more from him. Looking forward to his posts. gumshoe: OK i'll be honest with this one. Many times when I saw his posts, i just the feeling to grab my laptop and smash to the ground. I'm pretty sure that everyone is conscious of this posts and ideas. He has been slowing down the posting for a while and in fact has given good well developed opinions against jaj and somewhat to MG. Anyways, that drama we saw in the first hours didn't really made a good organized discussion later on. I'm glad that your are calming down, gum. DoYouHas Very active, pointing good posts and having a very good analysis in his posts. A very good town read from him. sl0osh Your posts have been more concrete after the clash with ET. You are slowly getting to that style I loved about you back in NMM3. I'm expecting you to build a very good solid case in the future. That would be it. I really want to see EchelonTee with more productive and well developed posts. His individualism in this thread make me feels he has the most scummy behavior. I'll wait to your response before I cast my vote, specially the one regarding the MG jumping.
Then he voted Echellon.
Look at his "reasoning".
On February 18 2012 23:41 trackd00r wrote:I still believe that ET is our best candidate for lynching. I've already given my explanations why, as well as others. He hasn't replied my post yet. Sorry, but I cant wait any longer. ##Vote: EchelonTee
Yup, that's all. He basically accuses someone because his play is "flashy".
On February 18 2012 11:39 trackd00r wrote:
What's with the over aggressive and 'flashy' way of posting? I thought that after your talk vs sl0osh your posting style could have changed, but instead you post short lines which clearly lack a basis. My suspicion towards is raising because we don't need these kind of posting here. It looks like you want to work by your own. I hardly see any attempt of trying to lead the town to a healthy discussion. Instead, you are creating a confusing atmosphere to us. What is your plan? Which are your goals? Your intentions are not very clear...
He later jumped on the DYH wagon. His reasoning was once again weak.
On February 20 2012 02:03 trackd00r wrote:
My following thoughts are directed to DoYouHas.
I've changed my view on him. If you think that he has been contributing on the discussion, I think you need to take a look closer to his behavior. His play so far has mostly consisted of:
1) Convincing us that gumshoe is town
2) Responding to almost every sloosh's post and draw suspicion upon him.
Him defending gum was indeed weird.
But defending himself from sloosh aggressive play? What's the fuzz about that?
Sounds more like something he made up to make his case look bigger.
Next in the line of non contributing posts is the following
+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2012 12:23 trackd00r wrote:I think it's time I have to catch the thread again. Personally, I'm not convinced with MidnightGladius case. I don't agree with the reasoning that jaj and ET gave. I'm not going to get into details about that, since we need to focus in other targets that don't create chaos. Alderan is lurking quite heavily now. And I need to say it. He has been one of the least contributors in this game so far. I have the feeling that he is just watching the thread, and watching us bash each other. + Show Spoiler +On February 18 2012 02:01 Alderan wrote:Hi guys, excited to get started. Ok so here are just my thoughts as I read through the thread (going to be pretty peacemeal as I catch up): As for my experience, most recently I played in SNMMIV as scum. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232826And before that I played a Vanilla towny in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500. I've also read a couple games all the way through I see that next we entered the obligatory Lurker Lynch policy discussion so I will throw in my $.02. We need to approach this in a way where lurkers know they will get lynched if they do not post. Our philosophy should be that someone who is blatantly lurking WILL get lynched unless of these 2 situations happens. 1. Adequate involvement from everyone. I have seen town get so focused on lynching a lurker that when that person becomes active the bandwagon has already started rolling so fast downhill that there's no stopping it. That person ends up being town more often than not. 2. There is an obvious scum slip or we can identify someone almost assuredly as scum. Let's make sure we don't hit a blue in our insistence on lynching someone day 1, if the obvious choice is not there, it's not there. That will be decided much closer to the end of the voting period though. Stay diligent. This poll is comical. I still fail to see the reasoning behind it. While discussion is good, let's not go round and round about that, almost no substantive value to be had. More worrisome than the poll is how quick to the gun ET was. Without formally FoSing, in my opinion you have already semi-accused DoYouHaas, Sloosh, and gumshoe. Do you stand any of these at all? If so which is the most scummy? I don't like it, and by it I mean blasting away with the accuse cannon nonstop. We need to hear from Mannerkiss again definitely. Gumshoe you're absolutely correct about Midnight Gladius's ratio post. What is the easiest way to "contribute" without actually contributing anything thats not common knowledge? Speculate about the setup/discuss the ratios and KP, and inactive lists. Those things are not inherently scummy, but they must be followed up with additional contributions. This first reminded me a lot of Zarepath's first post in NMM3, where he turned to be scum. Starts off with a fluffy hypothetical talk about what happens if X situation occurs. Then it goes on and makes the obvious remarks: The poll, ET vs sloosh and calling out manner kiss. Notice how he is just checking the thread. Then his next 2 posts are about gumshoe. Nothing really worthy to add to the discussion. Then it goes this case against Dimmu. It's ok, a lurker, everyone can be suspicious about (even I did). But that's not the point. I would've expected to vote him right away to put some pressure. Instead he just waited to other chaos to set in to cast his vote, when everyone was having different suspicions in other people. He addresses other players in a very shallow way. His opinions to ET and gum were very light IMO. If you think that just writing a case in the easiest case and posting everyone 5-6 hours is going to work, you are wrong. What do you think about the MidnightGladius case? Or DoYouHas'? FOS: Alderan
I'll give you the bulletins of it.
First he states his opinion on Midnights case
On February 20 2012 12:23 trackd00r wrote:
I think it's time I have to catch the thread again.
Personally, I'm not convinced with MidnightGladius case. I don't agree with the reasoning that jaj and ET gave. I'm not going to get into details about that, since we need to focus in other targets that don't create chaos.
He doesn't agree with the reasoning... Cause providing a sufficient explanation for your actions is not hip anymore, he just doesn't agree with it.
And if you take into account Mattchew's post connecting them, it makes perfect sense that he would just drop midnights case for no reason.
Next he accuses Alderan of lurking. Justified? Maybe. Easy? Hell yes.
His last posts are him defending from Mattchew. So zero town worth as well.
These are all of his posts. Not even a 2nd page in his filter. He tries to appear usefull while toying around.
If you take this post and mattchews case I think the picture is pretty clear at least about him.
We just have to find out how many more from Mattchew's remaining 3 are scum. Remember we might have missed some.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2012 19:49 Steveling wrote:Um, ok regarding my thoughts on trackdoor. You know how I like to find little clues here and there and prove them wrong, right? That's my scumhunting tactic. Well after examining trackdoors filter I found out there's not even one and I mean zero, nada posts with substance. It's 100% fluff. What he likes to do, is correcting other people's gameplay(mine,gums,blades,midnights,echellons, you get the point). Most of his posts are like "Dude I don't like x aspect of your posting, can you do y?" then drops the pressure on his target/s. Way to appear constructive in the most terrible manner there is. He made 3 big posts in this exact manner. + Show Spoiler +On February 18 2012 01:59 trackd00r wrote:Ok, so I've been reading the thread for a while and taken a look to the filters. @jaj22: Regarding in the comparison of those four players in NMM3, Their metagame has been similar so far, with a very few exceptions: -Sloosh has been very aggressive against EcheleonTea after he made an indirect scum claim (not sure if he was kidding still). The discussion lasted quite a bit with lots of attacks against each other. I'm not missing that attitude from sloosh, but I still expect more from him as town, by pulling off cases and encouraging everyone to participate, opposed to pick off a single target and turning it into a semi-heated talk. Helping us by posting the filters (thanks btw) and giving some general advice is nice to hear, but that fight left me with a little drop of doubt. Anyways, I somewhat understand that he was trying to defend from the first claim and in that case, it's the right thing to do. Looking good. -DoyouHas seems to be pointing the town to the right direction: taking the confidence to be the first to post (BUT last newbie mafia the first poster turned to be scum, with the difference that it was just fluff), gathering information and making his stand clear to everyone. Seems very pro town from me, the same way he did it in NMM3. -MidnightGladius has somewhat posted in the begging of the game. However, he does still have that flaw present in the past game, which is to make useless calculations and proportions about the mafia/town ratio. I feel that doesn't really contributes much to the dialogue. His next post have been better though, analyzing and commenting about the Echelon-sloosh clash and the not that succesful plan of gumshoe. I hope he keeps like that. Important to mention that those 3 players had blue roles in NMM3, so looking through their posts in the next days can make a clearer picture of them and their attitude to everything in general. -Zelbalde has only posted once, giving advice to us and apologizing. This was his biggest flaw last game. We know that you are a busy person zelblade, but posting just once is fine, instead of refilling your posts with more 'sorry' and making you either difficult to read or a scum candidate. Well, that's all regarding the past players, but of course we need to take look to the rest... Gumshoe did not had the best start ever in a mafia game. That first post was just flashy and not very elaborated. As Echelon said, it could be interpreted as an attempt to derail the discussion. This thing drew my attention quite a bit: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:36 EchelonTee wrote:
Show nested quote +
I would like it if you divided your walls of text into paragraphs; it took me a few to fathom your post, when I realized you're not saying anything. K very simple I wanted to see if any voting patterns formed within the poll It was like a lynch simulator But less than 12 people have voted in the pole therefore any conjecture regarding any mafia patterns is at the moment useless. Because it's possible that none of the mafia voted given that town thinks the poll is stupid and just posted on it randomly or trolingly. Discredit it until theres twelve votes or just discredit it period if you so please. That is all. That ridiculously excessive action regarding to divide your text into paragraphs makes you look fell very uncomfortable and desperate to get out of that situation. I'll take your plan as a newbie mistake, but that last post can draw suspicion... In my opinion, we should take a look at Steveling posts: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 10:50 gumshoe wrote:
Hi everybody! Im the friendly neighbourhood gum on your shoe! Today I come to you with a plan that'll hopefully shed some light on the certainly vile nature of the scum infesting our sacred house...OF GAMBLING! The plan is a simple anonymous poll asking wether your a townie or a scumie. Now in the case of the townie there is no risk whatsoever in voting townie, on acounta a) you are a townie and b) no one can say otherwise cause your voting anonymously. In fact I very much so ask that you don't say which one your voting for or wether or not your even voting at all. All I ask is that if you're a townie vote townie, or don't vote, please don't troll and say your mafia I REPEAT NO TOWNIES VOTE MAFIA, IT SHALL BE THE END OF US ALL!!!!!! This only works if all the townies voting vote townie so please do so if your a townie. If your mafia feel free to vote as well, in fact the whole purpose of this exercise is to see if you as a group abstain from voting, vote as you please, or all vote townie. This is an experiment to study the mafia and I promise to only do this once, so whata ya say newcomers! Watcha gonna be? I'd just likely to repeat one last time there is ABSOLUTELY no way I or anyone else can ascertain your alignment through this vote, so please give it a shot, it might very well teach us something useful.
Poll: Anonymous vote: are YOU mafia?
Mafioso (16)
80%
Townie (4)
20%
20 total votes
Your vote: Anonymous vote: are YOU mafia?
(Vote): Townie
(Vote): Mafioso
I loled soo hard reading this. As for me, I played one more game of mafia, but it was the biggest fail human kind has ever witnessed. There were 80 players in it, and it ended with the scum offering a draw, cause the city was that bad, T_T. I was a towny needless to say. Here's the link, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690I think I'm with jaj on the lurker lynching. Since unless some serious slips happen it's our best bet for scumhunt. On February 17 2012 11:25 jaj22 wrote: + Show Spoiler +
@Gumshoe: Did you get some RL buddies to spam your own vote, just in case it was accidentally useful?
@Steveling: I see you lynched Palmar on your first day. Not the greatest start to a mafia career. Fortunately we don't have any awesome scumhunting veterans in this game. Or mayors.
Yeah, that was ...unfortunate, Q_Q. But, I did have the best scumreads based on clues in that game. Well that was all I could do so I spent a lot of time into these. Also in my defense all the towny veterans where cockfighting each other so it was impossible for a newbie to tell who was what. On February 17 2012 11:55 gumshoe wrote: Show nested quote + + Show Spoiler +
I apologize as well. This was just a random shot to start off the night, I mean theres really nothing to discuss until something happens and it beats just randomly accusing people, but ill try not to do something like this again... for this game at least!
Just an idea, if you want this to work in future games, I think you need to post a clarifying post before the poll-post, something like a preemptive strike, so you get full cooperation from townies and state the purpose. For example, I voted scum on the poll before I even read it just to troll, T_T. There is barely anything helpful on those posts. Not really contributing . I expect you to post more or my suspicion to you will rise. That's it for the moment. I'll be checking again the thread in a couple of hours. My absence in the past is just sleeping. As may notice, my time is roughly the same as EST, so I'll be up for deadlines and lynches. And sorry for the bad formatting @ spoilers >.< I'll PM a mod later so I get some help lol On February 18 2012 06:28 trackd00r wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 05:20 Steveling wrote:
Ok, just woke up and caught on the action.
So, my view on the whole thing is that we should push for a no lynch day 1.
The reasoning: We are close to the night, very close actually and we have zero solid cases on anyone.
Yes mannerkiss's weird 1 liner is scummy, also both eche and sloosh became defensive too fast and yes there are some lurkers as well. Nothing we can make a strong case on.
But chanses are that we are probably gonna misslynch day1 with the current situation.
So the way I see it, we either push for a lurker lynch or a no lynch. And with a no lynch we promote more discussion without losing an unlucky towny, more discussion always benefits the town.
What do you guys think?
I'm sorry Steveling, but I definitely think that no-lynch is no no. We are not close to night. We've only had played for 21 hours and that's less than half of the time. We still have plenty of time to build a strong case on anyone. There have been several stances where we could gather information and I know that we can use it to push out a lynch. If it turns out mafia, great. If not, we will see the bandwagons and those who are dodging the cases to make a good and hopefully successful lynch in the second day. Well, you have posted much more content than you did it on your previous post, but I insist, I disagree with a no-lynch. Gumshoe, sometimes I think that you are going more pro-town, but in some other instances I just don't understand your intentions. Even you manage to contradict your self: Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 13:36 gumshoe wrote:Early reports! All very preliminary but hopefully it'll give everyone an idea of where some townies stand and where some lurkers don't. blae - absent but has an alibi(by alibi I mean he said before game that he would not be especially present day one) Alderan - Absent no alibi Ech - present but slightly suspicious ) : Do you has - present has contributed somewhat(a single post against the word of Ech) no basis for suspicion manner kiss- has presented himself but has not yet contributed to discussion. No basis for suspicion steveling - is present has contributed to discussion does not seem suspicious.track door - has made himself present has contributed somewhat to discussion no reason yet to suspect midnight- is present has contributed , (is mean to me but rightfully so ) no reason to suspect as of yet Sloosh - has contributed, acted out only to defend himself, does not seem suspicius Janaan- is absent no alibi tk hawakins- is absent no aibi dimmuKlk- is absent no alibi zell - is absent no alibi jaj22 - is present, is also somewhat mean but justifiably so as far as I can tell, his negative tone is striking negative but not yet suspicion worthy. Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 05:09 gumshoe wrote:
Now for stance number two! This ones about the lovely poll!
Unlike the topic of lynching lurkers, nearly everyone( with the exception of manner kiss and a few other lurkers) has stated an opinion on this matter, heres the breakdown of where everyone stands. Fore warning I'm a lot less objective here so take my opinions as you will.
Thinks I'm the nubbiest of noobs:
Blae(not much to say, just seems like he wants to move on from the poll which isn't really what a mafia would want)
Janan (just disregarded my poll and moved on, not very suspicious behaviour)
Steveling( hasn't commented to much, posted rather jokingly in response to my poll... Almost as if he wasn't worried about the prospect of me being mafia... Steve needs to post more.)
Midnight Gladius (didn't think I was mafia, not a suprise gladius dosent seem to take many risks)
TKHawkins( hasn't said much)
With this, I really want to make you think more carefully about you post. You say that Steveling has contributed to the discussion, when he actually didn't really at that point (he even loled at your poll) and then you suddenly realize deeper into the game that he hasn't commented much? I'm letting of the suspicion of you but please, please, think carefully every post you make. Instead of replaying to every post, try to start a case or at least draw your lynch candidates in a clear way. I swear that I can't even understand some of your posts, and not only to me, but all the town right here. For the moment, i'm lifting my suspicions about you and Steve I need to keep checking the filters and try to build up a strong case. There have been a lot of situations going on here and I'm starting to lose focus >_<. Expect more posting from me, I will. On February 18 2012 11:39 trackd00r wrote:I can't explain how tiring is to re-read like 5 times every filter. I haven't thought of a good case yet but some posts are revealing alignments and behaviors of each of you. I have no other option that expressing me my reads. Let's start Steveling: For a moment, I thought that you would have a more cooperative attitude towards the thread, but the only post which I've seen of content is this one: Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 05:20 Steveling wrote:
Ok, just woke up and caught on the action.
So, my view on the whole thing is that we should push for a no lynch day 1.
The reasoning: We are close to the night, very close actually and we have zero solid cases on anyone.
Yes mannerkiss's weird 1 liner is scummy, also both eche and sloosh became defensive too fast and yes there are some lurkers as well. Nothing we can make a strong case on.
But chanses are that we are probably gonna misslynch day1 with the current situation.
So the way I see it, we either push for a lurker lynch or a no lynch. And with a no lynch we promote more discussion without losing an unlucky towny, more discussion always benefits the town.
What do you guys think?
After that, you only attacked gumshoe, targeting mannerkiss with no reason whatsoever and post content less posts regarding lynches + random fluff. I'm expecting a lot more of you. You have been reading the thread long enough to build some accusations. EchelonTee: What's with the over aggressive and 'flashy' way of posting? I thought that after your talk vs sl0osh your posting style could have changed, but instead you post short lines which clearly lack a basis. My suspicion towards is raising because we don't need these kind of posting here. It looks like you want to work by your own. I hardly see any attempt of trying to lead the town to a healthy discussion. Instead, you are creating a confusing atmosphere to us. What is your plan? Which are your goals? Your intentions are not very clear... Probably the most confusing thing you did in the whole game is jump to vote at MG just after jaj22 opened a case against him. Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 09:49 EchelonTee wrote:On February 18 2012 09:47 MidnightGladius wrote:On February 18 2012 09:42 MannerKiss wrote:
Sorry i've been absent, work related stuff. Trying to catch up on the thread.
Doyouhas pretty strong townie feeling to me.
gumshoe - trying my best to overcome some scummy feeling from the earliest post, but it seems to have cleared up a little since the poll.
Dimmuklok giving me the strongest scum vibe of all so far, (and not just because he's aggressive toward me).
ET - also giving off a townie feeling
i'll catch up on everyone else when i get home this evening Welcome back! The last we saw you, DYH was your first scumread. Now, he's "pretty strong townie"? He was trolling, most likely. You are not. ##Vote MidnightGladiusmore after these messages! Seriously? No reasoning? Not any argument behind? Please, take a look to his behavior. I find it really scum and definitely NOT pro-town. This also applies to your earlier stand against sl0osh. MidnightGladius: You are in the very edge of what I consider constructive posting and what is just repeating what others said. I look you more to the path of constructiveness, but I'm expecting more about you. Your posting was slightly better in NMM3, although limited still (you were vig that game). Be a little more aggressive, but that's all. DimmuKlok: Please post more. You have only targeted the most obvious players at that moment. Also your 1st and 2nd were very fluffy. If you don't contribute more you will get targeted. Alderan: He looks very town for me at least. You made your stand clear from the start and you are pressuring Dimmu. Looks very neat so far. Mannerkiss: When you get back home, you'd better have good reads/accusations because your absence is really hurting us. Your semi analysis in your last post targets common players as well. I want to see more. jaj22: I don't have a clear picture of you yet You have been replying a fair amount of posts and looking forward information. I wouldn't vote for MG that early though, but it's up to you and we'll see how things come into the light after some hours. blae000: Perhaps you've only have made a few posts, but they are good quality ones. He looks to have good intentions. I would like to read more about him though. TWhawkins This has been his only contribution so far: Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 13:56 TKHawkins wrote:
Welcome.
First game on this forum. Anyway, I don't think Gumshoes poll is scummy. It's more likely he just thought "he I wonder if this idea would work." Clearly the answer is no and he didn't really think it through. Seems like more of newbie attempt at something more then anything else. I'm sure the obsever quick thread is already LOLing hard at us. I laughed too (and didn't vote since I hadn't known the game had started).
As for the policy on Lurker hunting, it's obviously a bit early to call people lurkers since many people might not even know the game has started yet (though definately not too early to discuss how to handle lurkers). It is best not to go after lurkers right away. The mafia generally aren't going to be completely inactive at the start. Rather, they are going to try to blend in. Scum post a reasonable amount, but don't contribute.
And finally, the Sl0osh vs Ech thing, I do think it's suspicious for Sl0osh to be acting defensive already. We need to hear more. Please, don't be shy. Come with some accusations. Your posts somewhat seem to you to look interested, but your post count says to opposite. Janaan: Hard to read. He has good intentions and makes good points, but I still i want to hear more from him. Looking forward to his posts. gumshoe: OK i'll be honest with this one. Many times when I saw his posts, i just the feeling to grab my laptop and smash to the ground. I'm pretty sure that everyone is conscious of this posts and ideas. He has been slowing down the posting for a while and in fact has given good well developed opinions against jaj and somewhat to MG. Anyways, that drama we saw in the first hours didn't really made a good organized discussion later on. I'm glad that your are calming down, gum. DoYouHas Very active, pointing good posts and having a very good analysis in his posts. A very good town read from him. sl0osh Your posts have been more concrete after the clash with ET. You are slowly getting to that style I loved about you back in NMM3. I'm expecting you to build a very good solid case in the future. That would be it. I really want to see EchelonTee with more productive and well developed posts. His individualism in this thread make me feels he has the most scummy behavior. I'll wait to your response before I cast my vote, specially the one regarding the MG jumping. Then he voted Echellon. Look at his "reasoning". Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 23:41 trackd00r wrote:I still believe that ET is our best candidate for lynching. I've already given my explanations why, as well as others. He hasn't replied my post yet. Sorry, but I cant wait any longer. ##Vote: EchelonTee Yup, that's all. He basically accuses someone because his play is "flashy". Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 11:39 trackd00r wrote:
What's with the over aggressive and 'flashy' way of posting? I thought that after your talk vs sl0osh your posting style could have changed, but instead you post short lines which clearly lack a basis. My suspicion towards is raising because we don't need these kind of posting here. It looks like you want to work by your own. I hardly see any attempt of trying to lead the town to a healthy discussion. Instead, you are creating a confusing atmosphere to us. What is your plan? Which are your goals? Your intentions are not very clear... He later jumped on the DYH wagon. His reasoning was once again weak. Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 02:03 trackd00r wrote:
My following thoughts are directed to DoYouHas.
I've changed my view on him. If you think that he has been contributing on the discussion, I think you need to take a look closer to his behavior. His play so far has mostly consisted of:
1) Convincing us that gumshoe is town
2) Responding to almost every sloosh's post and draw suspicion upon him. Him defending gum was indeed weird. But defending himself from sloosh aggressive play? What's the fuzz about that? Sounds more like something he made up to make his case look bigger. Next in the line of non contributing posts is the following + Show Spoiler +On February 20 2012 12:23 trackd00r wrote:I think it's time I have to catch the thread again. Personally, I'm not convinced with MidnightGladius case. I don't agree with the reasoning that jaj and ET gave. I'm not going to get into details about that, since we need to focus in other targets that don't create chaos. Alderan is lurking quite heavily now. And I need to say it. He has been one of the least contributors in this game so far. I have the feeling that he is just watching the thread, and watching us bash each other. + Show Spoiler +On February 18 2012 02:01 Alderan wrote:Hi guys, excited to get started. Ok so here are just my thoughts as I read through the thread (going to be pretty peacemeal as I catch up): As for my experience, most recently I played in SNMMIV as scum. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232826And before that I played a Vanilla towny in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500. I've also read a couple games all the way through I see that next we entered the obligatory Lurker Lynch policy discussion so I will throw in my $.02. We need to approach this in a way where lurkers know they will get lynched if they do not post. Our philosophy should be that someone who is blatantly lurking WILL get lynched unless of these 2 situations happens. 1. Adequate involvement from everyone. I have seen town get so focused on lynching a lurker that when that person becomes active the bandwagon has already started rolling so fast downhill that there's no stopping it. That person ends up being town more often than not. 2. There is an obvious scum slip or we can identify someone almost assuredly as scum. Let's make sure we don't hit a blue in our insistence on lynching someone day 1, if the obvious choice is not there, it's not there. That will be decided much closer to the end of the voting period though. Stay diligent. This poll is comical. I still fail to see the reasoning behind it. While discussion is good, let's not go round and round about that, almost no substantive value to be had. More worrisome than the poll is how quick to the gun ET was. Without formally FoSing, in my opinion you have already semi-accused DoYouHaas, Sloosh, and gumshoe. Do you stand any of these at all? If so which is the most scummy? I don't like it, and by it I mean blasting away with the accuse cannon nonstop. We need to hear from Mannerkiss again definitely. Gumshoe you're absolutely correct about Midnight Gladius's ratio post. What is the easiest way to "contribute" without actually contributing anything thats not common knowledge? Speculate about the setup/discuss the ratios and KP, and inactive lists. Those things are not inherently scummy, but they must be followed up with additional contributions. This first reminded me a lot of Zarepath's first post in NMM3, where he turned to be scum. Starts off with a fluffy hypothetical talk about what happens if X situation occurs. Then it goes on and makes the obvious remarks: The poll, ET vs sloosh and calling out manner kiss. Notice how he is just checking the thread. Then his next 2 posts are about gumshoe. Nothing really worthy to add to the discussion. Then it goes this case against Dimmu. It's ok, a lurker, everyone can be suspicious about (even I did). But that's not the point. I would've expected to vote him right away to put some pressure. Instead he just waited to other chaos to set in to cast his vote, when everyone was having different suspicions in other people. He addresses other players in a very shallow way. His opinions to ET and gum were very light IMO. If you think that just writing a case in the easiest case and posting everyone 5-6 hours is going to work, you are wrong. What do you think about the MidnightGladius case? Or DoYouHas'? FOS: Alderan I'll give you the bulletins of it. First he states his opinion on Midnights case Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 12:23 trackd00r wrote:
I think it's time I have to catch the thread again.
Personally, I'm not convinced with MidnightGladius case. I don't agree with the reasoning that jaj and ET gave. I'm not going to get into details about that, since we need to focus in other targets that don't create chaos. He doesn't agree with the reasoning... Cause providing a sufficient explanation for your actions is not hip anymore, he just doesn't agree with it. And if you take into account Mattchew's post connecting them, it makes perfect sense that he would just drop midnights case for no reason. Next he accuses Alderan of lurking. Justified? Maybe. Easy? Hell yes. His last posts are him defending from Mattchew. So zero town worth as well. These are all of his posts. Not even a 2nd page in his filter. He tries to appear usefull while toying around. If you take this post and mattchews case I think the picture is pretty clear at least about him. We just have to find out how many more from Mattchew's remaining 3 are scum. Remember we might have missed some.
OK, i'll give my words:
1) Where you stated that my posts were mostly "Dude I don't like x aspect of your posting, can you do y?", I don't see what's wrong on it. I mean, mafia is a game where you need to prove the other people are lying, isn't it? The way I'm trying to accomplish (which hasn't been that successful I must say) is by expressing my thoughts in people's post and telling them to post in a way that doesn't create chaos or WIFOMs, so we can analyze them better.
For example, at the start, gumshoe's posts were chaotic and rushed. I thought that It couldn't be a pro-town play if he kept doing them, as I told him to hold back. Then went he started to make more readable and coherent posts, I dropped my suspicion upon him. I could read him better or see any behavior that seemed scummy. This applies to any other player that I gave my opinion. Even If they didn't follow my advice or else, I could watch them better.
2) My suspicion against ET was just not because he had a flashy style, it was because it THAT moment he didn't provide any case to MG and it seemed to just jump into jaj's bandwagon. Plus, we was being overly aggressive to players like slo0sh and making a set of kind of spammy replies to everyone else. That's what I considered that wasn't pro-town play, since in that moment I thought he just wanted to create chaos on the thread. After he made finally case and started posting better, in the sense that was broadly understandable and with a direction, I dropped my suspicion. Even though I his case didn't convince him, I don't think he is scum by now.
3) The DYH case is something that I actually took my time to read and analyze. Yea, the gum thing wasn't clear. The way that he was going back & forth with sl0osh was suspicious. In NMM3, he had a more active role and making reads and cases early in the game and wasn't distracted so easily to single players. His weird change of posting style is something what I was starting to worry about. I should read that game and see how he posts in the 1st day. ET went more in-depth about that topic a few posts ago. And I repeat, the sl0osh part was important because the way he dropped his leadership style posting to argue with sl0osh is something to worry about. And not only in my case, but in many others.
4) You say that making a case against someone is not contributing to the discussion. I fail to see why.
5) Now if you want I can say why I'm not convinced with MG case.
- The way that jaj' jumped into him:
On February 18 2012 09:31 jaj22 wrote:
Ok, screw it. I'm making a case.
It looks that he would do that just for the sake of posting.
- The reasoning behind. At first, it was basically like 'oh, he is doing what everyone else has done, so that might be scum.'
- He just trying to be very transparent with his posts. Some points that ET and jaj22 gave were that he was comparing gum's play to FakePromise. I didn't see any wrong in that situation, since that game FP wasn't posting substantially. On the other hand, gum was, and his intentions could have been interpreted in a better way to push a case.
- His meta has been similar to NMM3. I don't really see any change in his posting style like I did with DYH.
I'm not going to overdefend him neither. I gave some general points and I think it's enough.
6) The reason that I don't have a 2nd page on my filter is because I try to make my posts with the most content I can put, compared to other players. There have been some exceptions though. If you see some people with 3 pages of filters, you can see that half of their posts are with single points or replaying to simple questions.
As a note, I know that I haven't played good now. I don't know what could be the reason why. Perhaps it's the pressure, or my use of English that mane times limits myself to shorter responses. I feel that I'm not giving the best of me this game. I can't fall back though.
I'm re-reading the thread so I can give more thoughts now. I didn't mean to be a lurker. Neither I want to become one.
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That's cute and all trackdoor but it's kinda like dancing after the party is over.
If you had expressed something like this when it was needed you would indeed contribute to the discussion.
Now you just look like a cornered scum scraping for his life.
Anyway, as a golden mafia rule, when you state an opinion, provide your reasoning. If you don't you end up like this.
I'm gonna try to help you though. Give us your opinion on hawkins,zelblade and midnight. I expect something good if you are indeed town.
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Steve don't bother he's arguing about why he thought a blue was scum after he died
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Meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta.... Can we stop lynching cause of this?
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Wow, ok where to start....
Mattchew's Case: Obviously fits with my line of thinking in my vote analysis very well. I disagree with him about all 4 of the candidates, but I'm fairly certain about Trackd00r and TKHawkins. Midnight and Zelblade are less suspicious for very different reasons but I'm certainly not counting them out.
The DoYouHas Lynch: I obviously stated I don't like it, and in all honesty I think it's the product of the most hard line tunneling I have ever seen in a mafia game. I don't think he has to die, I mean just look at the last post. It is filled with pro-town sentiments. There is one part I disagree with however.
Sloosh's Silliness: The part I don't agree with DoYouHas about is his feelings (if i interpreted this correctly, feel free to clear this up) that Sloosh is town. Now I had been leaning that way up until yesterday and then things began to change. Here's why:
Let's make a list of who Sloosh has cast suspicion on this game.
EchelonTee- Only for a second
DoYouHas
MidnightGladius
Alderan
Mattchew
Now let's take a look at the context of the thread at the time of the cast suspicion with all his suspects after DoYouHas.
MidnightGladius- "You're looking really scummy to me right now MG. Unless you provide good reasoning why you think DYH is town, it is absolutely incriminating that you would bring up a new lynch suspect "who apparently isn't even on anyone else's radar"."
That's it. That's his case. That's what made MG suspicious.
There is a back and forth between the two of them which kind of dies out because MG eventually "sees the light" and joins the bandwagon.
Alderan- I begin by noting how suspicious it is Sloosh is tunneling so hard, and how I don't like the DYH lynch.
After this sentiment I am immediately Scum #1 to Sloosh.
Mattchew- Mattchew's case is the most startling because he actually didn't say anything against Sloosh at all, he just suggested we vote for someone other than DoYouHas and then boom.... he is Scum #2.
My Response to Sloosh's Case
- You accuse me of treating my vote like trash. I'm holding my vote so I can make the right decision. With the current train on DYH, I'm pretty sure putting my vote on anyone is going to be like throwing it in the garbage anyway,
- I am commenting on YOUR PLAY now, this is no longer about me disagreeing with your arguments on DYH, it is your actions since that point. I had not originally thought you were scum, I just thought you were playing poorly, I was hoping that pointing it out would bring you back into reality with the rest of us, it didn't, but what it did provide was some interesting evidence on how you cast suspicion.
- Everyone is accountable for when they misslynch, as was I when I wrongly accused Dimmukluk. That being said I didn't come out prior to the lynch and say "Hey....uh... so if I'm wrong let's just continue on like normal....."
Where I stand at this moment:
My scumlist is as follows:
TKHawkins- For reasons pretty well articulated by some, and his lack of addressing these issues.
Sloosh- I feel like I've pretty well articulated this by now. I want to remind everyone that this read is not based off of his initial fight or case against DYH it is about how he has chosen his targets since then and the arguments he has provided.
Trackd00r- Will post analysis in the next couple of hours, I'm afraid to clog up the thread prior to the vote though. So it might be at night or the beginning of day 3.
I'm not really sure where I stand on a fourth scum, I have suspicions but like I said, we need to keep discussion on the task at hand in the hours leading up to this lynch.
So my vote will be on TKHawkins as he is the best chance of getting lynched today.
##vote: TKHawkins
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Day 2, with 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Current votes:
DoYouHas (9): slOosh, Mattchew, Janaan, gumshoe, MidnightGladius, EchelonTee, zelblade, trackd00r, Steveling, TKHawkins, -Mattchew, -Janaan, Janaan
TKHawkins (2): Mattchew, Alderan
MidnightGladius (1): gumshoe, -gumshoe, DoYouHas
Not voting: rgTheSchworz
The Day deadline is at 2012-02-22 09:00:00. (That's approximately 5:36:57 from now.)
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sloosh your cases suck... you got lucky finding scum in your first game and maybe you think that this isn't the case. look at the obs qt of that thread... everyone said the zeph lynch was just lucked into
if dyh flips green which anyone who is reading the thread objectively would presume, you and your sheep ET, need to shut the fuck up
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On February 21 2012 12:14 EchelonTee wrote:After doing a full run through of DYH's filter in this game, and in his previous game, I can honestly say that WE SHOULD LYNCH HIM TODAY NO ONE ELSE.Why? If you do a side by side comparison of DYH's posts in each game, there's a really big gulf. I really don't know how DYH could have even brought himself to bring up a "meta" arguement against slOosh, because the meta against him is way, way more damning. Look at the first 5ish posts from each game: From last game: + Show Spoiler +On January 25 2012 15:24 DoYouHas wrote:
There is no reason our first lynch should be random. We need to use the threat of lynching to put pressure on lurkers and suspicious people. This needs to start today. If we seriously consider a no lynch today all we do is encourage passive play. We should be creating opportunities to gain information and put pressure. The worst thing we can give the mafia is time. On January 26 2012 03:20 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 19:22 zarepath wrote:On January 25 2012 15:24 DoYouHas wrote:
There is no reason our first lynch should be random. We need to use the threat of lynching to put pressure on lurkers and suspicious people. This needs to start today. If we seriously consider a no lynch today all we do is encourage passive play. We should be creating opportunities to gain information and put pressure. The worst thing we can give the mafia is time. Lynching lurkers is not as great a strategy as it sounds. As others pointed out, mafia can just decide to post more, and then suddenly we're looking at lynching the less-active townies just because they don't talk enough. People who don't post at all get modkilled anyway, and seeing as how this is a newbie game, there are probably several lurkers who just don't know where to get started. I also agree that we should go after suspicious people. And I think we'll find out who they are by continuing to pressure zelblade. From the general tone of the posting so far I agree that today we are more likely to get mafia by lynching someone suspicious rather than a lurker. If people come up with better ways of getting lurkers active I am all ears. As for things I have looked at so far, I am not going to reiterate points made on MidnightGladius and zelblade but here are a couple of people on the lurker list whose first posts were very similar and I did not like. Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 13:57 balt11t wrote:
FakePromise, I feel as though saying that you are willing to take a 70% chance of killing an innocent man seems like you might have something to hide. Criminals tend to be fine with killing off innocent people, and you seem to fit that profile. Normal people would not be willing to take such a risk. Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 14:07 balt11t wrote:
In extension, I feel as though the proposed plan by zarepath is simply too great of a risk. Why take nearly a 70% chance of taking an innocent person's life? No, we should wait to find the lurkers, I agree with slOosh, we need to wait for a little more discussion to happen in order to make a decision. What bothers me in the first post is the second half. He is making the statement "That seems scummy." but unnecessarily longer and strangely worded. In his second post he tones down the strange wording a bit but more troubling is his espousing of a wait and see style. We need to be making discussion happen, not just letting it happen. Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 14:55 SacredSystem wrote:
Zarepath's decision to lynch someone at random does sound like the calculated mind of a mobster. However, despite several conclusions that we all wish to draw, we need to wait, the mafia will all expose themselves at some point in time.
on a side note
Fakepromise agreed with him at 30% odds -_-
This caught my attention after I had been looking at balt11t. It is almost the exact same post. Lengthy substitute for scummy, wait and see attitude (though even worse this time), and pointing to Fakepromise's questionable agreement with a random lynch. On January 26 2012 08:01 DoYouHas wrote:I believe zelblade is our best lynch option. Just look at what he did when thrust into the spotlight. Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:48 zelblade wrote:On January 25 2012 15:40 slOosh wrote:On January 25 2012 15:21 zelblade wrote:
Regarding the setup, 4 scum to 9 town seems like a lot of scum to me. This would lead me to believe that scum KP is probably 1, as anything else will probably be excessive. As such, we probably have only 2 mislynches before LYLO, unless there is a medic prot of some sort of course. Thus we need to make sure that we use these lynches well, and use logical reasoning to pin down the lynch onto the scum.
To town, we need to post more, as more posts = more contributions, and would allow us to make analysis and thus help to pin down who the scum are.
Ok this post is really weird. 1) OP clearly states Mafia KP. On January 24 2012 08:35 dreamflower wrote:
Mafia Goon
Your goal is to eliminate everyone else in the town. Your ability, as a group, is killing off whomever you decide on at night and knowing the role of each other player in your mafia. You may kill your own members. Mafia killing power is always 1 until there are no mafia remaining.
Of course this is a newbie game so y'know, people make mistakes. 2) This post doesn't actually give us anything new or that helpful. We can do the math and figure how many mislynches we have till Lylo, which isn't information you typically use day 1. I mean, unless you push for no lynch, how's that info help? 3) This is the part that got me from giving benefit of the doubt to feeling weird: On January 25 2012 15:21 zelblade wrote:
To town, we need to post more, as more posts = more contributions, and would allow us to make analysis and thus help to pin down who the scum are.
What the heck? Who does this? Who addresses town? A town post would have started at "we need to post more ...". #FOS zelblade 1) Opps my bad, didnt see that part. 2) I was simply trying to generate some discussion as it would seem that no one was talking much, and trying to emphasise that we need to use our lynches carefully. 3) I am sorry if that came off at scummy, and what i simply meant by that part was that town needs to post more. Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 00:14 zelblade wrote:On January 25 2012 14:19 zelblade wrote:As for what to do with our day 1 lynch, i suggest that we lynch a lurker unless a better canditate comes up. Remember that we still have alot of time left before the deadline, so we should utilize this time well to discuss and find a better lynch candidate than lynching by reverse-alphabetical order. If i wasnt clear here, i apologise. What i meant to say i that we ought to lynch a lurker if we cannot find a better targert at the end of the day, and that it should be done only if there is/are no clear targert(s) at the end of day 1, instead of using RNG (or in this case, reverse-alphabetical order) to determine who is our day 1 lynch (which i believe zarepath seems to be advocating). Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 00:37 zelblade wrote:On January 26 2012 00:29 Simberto wrote:
EBWOP
And that (no random lynching) includes zarepath who has also already stated that he does not believe in random lynching anymore. So why did you bring him up again? I was trying to explain the contradiction u pointed out earlier. He has been apologizing and clarifying posts (which were already pretty clear) ever since spl0osh criticized his second post. Instead of using the spotlight to voice his own suspicions or convince us of his innocence, he has tried to move out of the spotlight as quickly and quietly as possible, while avoiding offending anyone. While his initial posts weren't particularly scummy, his responses have been nothing but suspicious. ## Vote: zelblade On January 27 2012 06:17 DoYouHas wrote:I am willing to set aside my suspicion of zelblade for today in order to make my vote more relevant. As for the CosmosXAM vs FakePromise lynching, I find myself at a loss. Let me explain. CosmosXAM seems more scummy to me than FakePromise for a few reasons. Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 06:39 CosmosXAM wrote:
I had yet to post because I was at school, sorry if inactivity would lead people to this conclusion. But in my opinion even pressuring someone like that will be cause of an emotional and defensive response making them see even more likely to be right to lynch. I am completely against random lynches on the first day because the odds are just too small, you wouldnt bet your life on a 1/3 chance would you? That is the same stance I am taking here even on the chance we do kill a mafia in my opinion it comes at too great of a risk and we dont need to kill a townie only to have more killed in the night, that just brings our numbers too low to fast. Not only is this a weak first post that focuses on a settled issue, his second sentence says that even if we find scummy things in his posts, it is our fault for pressuring him into it. He shortly follows this with 3 questionable statements in his second post. Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 07:04 CosmosXAM wrote:On January 26 2012 06:53 zarepath wrote:On January 26 2012 06:39 CosmosXAM wrote:
I had yet to post because I was at school, sorry if inactivity would lead people to this conclusion. But in my opinion even pressuring someone like that will be cause of an emotional and defensive response making them see even more likely to be right to lynch. I am completely against random lynches on the first day because the odds are just too small, you wouldnt bet your life on a 1/3 chance would you? That is the same stance I am taking here even on the chance we do kill a mafia in my opinion it comes at too great of a risk and we dont need to kill a townie only to have more killed in the night, that just brings our numbers too low to fast. Right, we've moved on past random lynching. Who do you think is suspicious? If I had to say I would probably go with fakepromise because of how he was so quick to agree. Also Chocolate seems mildly suspicious because of his quick jump to voting straight for me based on little information, but I havent found enough conclusive evidence to make a post strongly against someone. This is just my first game and I can only be active for a few hours in the day so hopefully people dont misconstrue that information. First, he goes after FakePromise. This is reasonable, possibly bandwagoning, and easy. I expect someone who has been lurking for a full day could find something suspicious to mention that hasn't been repeated so often. Second, he overreacts to Chocolate's placing a vote on him and lashes back purely based on that. Third, he points us to this being his first game and how rarely he will be able to post. So not only should we not expect many posts from him, but when they come we shouldn't expect them to have quality. I don't really take issue with his third post and 4-5 have no content so I'll move to FakePromise. I don't have anything new to say on the things FakePromise has done wrong. I simply agree that his actions make for a very poor defense and he definitely is not pro-town so far. I do not agree with zarepath's defense of FakePromise. To me, it is equally likely for the explanations of 'no mafia would behave in the way FakePromise has / no mafia team would allow FakePromise to behave in the way he has' and 'FakePromise has played this first round very poorly' to be true. It is not out of the question. Especially since most of us are new players. In spite of CosmosXAM being the scummier candidate, I believe we gain more information for day 2 if we lynch FakePromise. Not only can we start to look at people who seem to have jumped on the bandwagon but we would also gain some insight into zarepath's motivations. I am torn between the scummier candidate and having more information. At the moment I am leaning towards CosmosXAM. In my real life mafia experience bumbling defenses like FakePromise's tend to be town who don't know how to act under pressure. I'm trusting that experience for now. On January 27 2012 10:10 DoYouHas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 09:26 Simberto wrote:
If Zarepath should flip red, that would make FakePromise an almost 100% red too (while this does not necessarily work the other way around). Also that whole defense of FakePromise could really be the work of a frustrated mafia, too. And should he flip green, we need to take a VERY careful look at CosmosXAM and sloosh. I really dislike the way this case was built in the last minute, and the try to pull me on board beforehand, but i must admit that it seems like a strong case to me.
Be very careful with that assumption. From the perspective of zarepath being scum I think there are only 3 possible likelihoods. 1. We lynch FakePromise, he flips town, and zarepath looks good for defending him. 2. We lynch CosmosXAM, he flips scum, and zarepath looks good for being the first real accuser. 3. We lynch CosmosXAM, he flips town, and zarepath looks the same. I left out the possibility of FakePromise flipping scum because zarepath's own actions make it very unlikely. Just look at the statements laced through his posts. Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 13:28 zarepath wrote:
Randomly lynch a townie/blue: Bad. The only upside is that we can then use the information from that lynching to determine likely mafia. Who was most excited about randomly lynching that particular person? Who bandwagonned on? Who were the last few votes who made the lynch possible?
Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 19:22 zarepath wrote:
The point is that upon flip, we have much more to go on. Anyone irrationally defending you now, if it turns out you're mafia, has a solid chance of also being mafia. So no, not anyone defending you is necessarily mafia, and not necessarily anyone accusing you, but upon flip, we can figure out which side of that we can throw our suspicions.
Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 19:38 zarepath wrote:
Upon flip, we'll know whether the plan's supporters or detractors were likely mafia or not. Not both sides at once, regardless of flip.
It's far better than a random lynch because, with a specific target, people have to reveal themselves by defending/accusing him. The information we gain from his flip then has repercussions; the information we'd gain from a random lynch would just be hit/miss with zero opportunity for analysis, save theory-based ("anyone who votes for random is mafia" "with 4/13 random vote is actually worse for mafia" etc.). Instead we can see who defended him and who attacked him and have actual leads from there headed into Day 2.
If anything zarepath has been trying to get us to focus on who supported and attacked whoever is lynched. This makes it seem very unlikely to me that he would adamantly defend someone he knows is mafia when that person holds little to no sway over the town and is still likely to be lynched. It is far more likely that he has set himself up to defend an innocent or bus a fellow scum. He gains favor in the town regardless of the way the lynch goes. So, to counter your point, if zarepath flips red I think it is far more likely that FakePromise is town and it will cast even more suspicion on CosmosXAM. From this game: + Show Spoiler +On February 17 2012 11:51 DoYouHas wrote:
The point is not to lynch lurkers, it is to lynch scum. If a lynching a lurker is the best option we have near a deadline, then by all means, let's do it. But policy lynching is just a terrible idea. I am already looking suspiciously at the ET for espousing it.
FOS: EchelonTee On February 17 2012 13:31 DoYouHas wrote:
ET, instead of jumping on every little inconsistency you find in order to go blow for blow with sl0osh, why not just make a note of it and present a more complete case later. Bickering can be useful, but I fear this is going to turn into Toast vs prplz.
sl0osh, I dislike your attack on ET. Pointing out that both town and mafia can have motivation for the same action just looks to me like he is covering his bases so he can't be accused of not considering all the options later. And his calling you out was perfectly founded. You were an active poster in NMM3 who looked towards putting quality in the thread. If you suddenly went lurker on us it wouldn't be a stretch to think that you were organizing the mafia in their qt. On February 17 2012 13:56 DoYouHas wrote:
I want MannerKiss to chime in. Let those opinions fly! Who looks scummy to you and why? On February 17 2012 14:05 DoYouHas wrote:
Then allow me to do it again. Has nothing caught your eye so far? Nothing from gumshoe or ET or sl0osh or any of the other ppl? On February 18 2012 04:19 DoYouHas wrote:
I think it is about time we start talking about who to lynch today. With the scheduling problems mentioned by a few people, I don't think we can wait too much longer.
My current list of people I'm consdering voting for is sl0osh and MannerKiss
sl0osh, he overreacted badly to a perfectly fine way of calling him out. Everything in his exchange was just an extended version of OMGUS (attacking the person who attacked you only because he attacked you). I think it is too easy to dismiss sl0osh's failure to see the reason behind ET's actions as his standard confirmation bias. Not acknowledging that ET's initial reference to him was purely to get him talking, not to frame him as mafia. I also thought that whole post about ET's tone was just a big pot of confirmation bias.
MannerKiss, his fairly immediate response to me calling him out told me he was paying attention to the thread IE, actively lurking. The two explanations for which would be a new townie unsure of what to post, or a new scum unsure of what to post. The one-liner back at me and his lack of a response to me trying to call him out a second time make me feel it is more likely the latter.
Notice anything different? In his last game as Townie-Detective, he posts MASSIVE amounts of content, reads on MULTIPLE people (scum reads, not town reads), and tries to keep town atmosphere productive. Just look at those blocks of text. In this game, he isn't even CLOSE to this amount of content. He starts with the same "don't lynch lurker" sentiment, sure, but this only shows that he knows what is the correct thing to say. In my first game as scum, it was very easy for me to say "policy lynching is bad, people who say it's good are scum", as DYH did here. Instead of being analytical and open, all he does is try to draw out MannerKiss, and present a bad case on slOosh. Why do I think this is a bad case? He says that slOosh "overreacted", in an OMGUS manner; I do not think this at all. I prodded at slOosh, and he prodded back HARD. That screams confident, asshole townie to me, not scum at all. That DYH pushed a case on slOosh based off "meta" is laughable... what, that slOosh is willing to argue and defend himself = scum? Note that these posts end around page 10-11 for both games; at the same point in time, relatively DYH has a huge disparity in the amount of content compared to last game, and this is only in the early game. At this point all he has done is shadowed my opinions on everything, which I find hilarious; as he has already made slOosh his enemy, all I can guess is that he is trying to follow my reads in the hope that I will agree with him (aka MG=scum, TK=scum, Janaan=town). Even in the cases he make, he brings up pretty shallow things like MG's reaction to the ET vs. Sloosh debacle, or that TK=scum because he thinks Janaan is scum. Wat. DYH defense, and his cases just sound completely half-hearted and fake. This cannot be the same DYH from last game, or even the DYH from the NMMI obs qt. It's a scum DYH, I'm certain.
btw you answered your own accusation here... he was a dt in the last game... he had more information that game
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meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta
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I've read some of TKhawkins filter. Two things caught my attention.
1) The way that he misspelled his vote to DimmuKlok. You had a lot of trouble trying to get it right didn't you?
On February 19 2012 08:57 TKHawkins wrote:
Bah accidentally deleted my post because I was flipping through various windows. ##unvote: EchelonTee While I don't completely believe his read on Midnight enough to vote for Midnight, Ech at least followed through with his word and eventually gave a reason (abiet, giving people like me very little time left to change our votes).
##Vote DimmunKlok He's the best candidate we got right now.
On February 19 2012 08:59 TKHawkins wrote:
#voteDimmuKlok sorry mispell
On February 19 2012 08:59 TKHawkins wrote:
bahh ##vote DimmuKlok
The thing I see strange is that at first, you didn't have any problems unvoting ET. You formatted the vote just fine. Then you had a typo at your vote. When you tried to correct it the first time, you did a mistake that it could have been easily avoided as you unvoted ET in one twink. I'm starting to think that your scum team told you to misspell the vote to add an enormous state of pressure in these last minutes, not only once, but twice, with the goal of checking who was active and who was nervous of a no lynch to occur, to then preparing their decisions to who kill/watch for. Some people (including me) jumped to correct your mistake. One of the most active on those minutes was the recently shot jaj 22. That's why I think you had intention behind those typos.
2) In your last post, you expressed your thoughts on me in a very unnecessary context, which was me, you, zel and MG being targeted. You jumped into your defense with soft points to zel and MG, but regarding my posts, it was a quite long. I've been noticing this. Why do you think I'm the most pro-town player with only supporting this fact with 3 posts? There are other players out there who are preforming way better than me. I'm leaning toward the idea that your sucm team, again, is telling you to buddy me even more to prove mattchew's point even more and pushing me more to a scum candidate the next days.
I find this behavior very weird. I think mafia are using Tkhawkins, one of this shiest and lurkish members, to stir the pot without putting them into the spotlight.
What do you think?
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On February 22 2012 04:43 trackd00r wrote:I've read some of TKhawkins filter. Two things caught my attention. 1) The way that he misspelled his vote to DimmuKlok. You had a lot of trouble trying to get it right didn't you? Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:57 TKHawkins wrote:
Bah accidentally deleted my post because I was flipping through various windows. ##unvote: EchelonTee While I don't completely believe his read on Midnight enough to vote for Midnight, Ech at least followed through with his word and eventually gave a reason (abiet, giving people like me very little time left to change our votes).
##Vote DimmunKlok He's the best candidate we got right now. The thing I see strange is that at first, you didn't have any problems unvoting ET. You formatted the vote just fine. Then you had a typo at your vote. When you tried to correct it the first time, you did a mistake that it could have been easily avoided as you unvoted ET in one twink. I'm starting to think that your scum team told you to misspell the vote to add an enormous state of pressure in these last minutes, not only once, but twice, with the goal of checking who was active and who was nervous of a no lynch to occur, to then preparing their decisions to who kill/watch for. Some people (including me) jumped to correct your mistake. One of the most active on those minutes was the recently shot jaj 22. That's why I think you had intention behind those typos. 2) In your last post, you expressed your thoughts on me in a very unnecessary context, which was me, you, zel and MG being targeted. You jumped into your defense with soft points to zel and MG, but regarding my posts, it was a quite long. I've been noticing this. Why do you think I'm the most pro-town player with only supporting this fact with 3 posts? There are other players out there who are preforming way better than me. I'm leaning toward the idea that your sucm team, again, is telling you to buddy me even more to prove mattchew's point even more and pushing me more to a scum candidate the next days. I find this behavior very weird. I think mafia are using Tkhawkins, one of this shiest and lurkish members, to stir the pot without putting them into the spotlight. What do you think?
what do i think? your bussing your teammate WOOOOOO
bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus
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On February 22 2012 04:33 Mattchew wrote:
btw you answered your own accusation here... he was a dt in the last game... he had more information that game
Are you even thinking? He posted those reads and all that content on D1, BEFORE he made any DT checks. He did absolutely nothing D1 this game except light, ineffectual pressure. It's not solely meta. DYH just.. hasn't been very pro-town at all and it makes me kind of sad. And while it's endearing for him to post that "you have to kill me today", he could've defended himself effectively if he had it in him, as in if he KNEW he was town.
Mattchew, can we stop the town vs. town hate fest that is about to explode? Don't tell us to shut the fuck up, you're needlessly being an ass. We have to work together to get shit done, because it's assured that scum team will be working together to make us hate each other.
That said, I stand by my support of your scum list. I find it funny that everyone disagrees with it; gotta be scum team saying "oh shit" in QT.
at school. will post bigger later.
where the hell is rG?
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by potential hate fest I mean there are two outcomes of this day's lynch:
DYH=red - Sloosh "SEE??? now we kill mattchew that scummy douche"
DYH=green - Mattchew "SEE??? now we never listen to sloosh and ET again, meanwhile scum team will yell and scream at me and prevent me from getting my lynches through"
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Hawk needs to be lynched next. His posts reek of trying to create conflict.
Remember his early reads? Look at the people he called suspicius.
+ Show Spoiler +Ech:Throws FOSs and Votes out very impulsively. Does not seem to have a plan, and could just be trying to cause unrest. Why say you had more to say about MidnightGladius being suspicious and then not say anything more? It's almost as if he voted for Midnight and then forgot why he was going to say he voted for him. Which a town would not do. Suspicious.
+ Show Spoiler +Jaj :Says flashy and aggressive play are not scummy when talking about Ech. But that's also how he is playing. Convenient eh? Would like more of an explanation about why Midnight in particular deserves a pressure vote, when there are so many others that could have used that too.
+ Show Spoiler +Slo0sh: Still think he reacted too strongly to Ech and DoYouHas accusing him. Why feel guilty as town? Focuses discussion back on Gumshoe, possibly to distract us from his scum buddies. Suspicious.
+ Show Spoiler +
DYH: Mostly bogged down with Gumshoe. Trying to tag sl0osh as a good player who wouldn't make such mistakes. It makes no sense to try to meta analyze a player with only one game of background. DoYouHas is jumping on perceived mistakes. Suspicious
He is focusing suspicion on the four players who are most active and most constructive at this point in the game.
His reasonings? Sloosh:Too defensive,Ech: to offensive,DYH: jumps on mistakes (can easily just be seen pressure at this stage in the game) Jaj:Shouldve pressured someone else basically he calls all these players suspicious for active behaviour.
What really gets me is that he is accusing jaj of flashy play when jaj really isn't that bad at this point in time and his accusation of Mg was just because he felt the game was stagnating and Mg was playing too safe, also Jaj was detective so your point about him supporting flashy players because he's flashy is mute on two accounts, 1) of the four people you called suspicius Jaj is the least flashy, and 2) it was just a false accusation. What is interesting though is your assault against jaj convinientley defending flashy players convinientley backs up your implicit argument against flashy players.
Hawk is trying to cause conflict here and plant the seed of suspiciun against active players which is horrible, because if your suspiciuns are founded on whose playing flashy/active, than that means in your eyes players who continue to contribute condemn themselves more and more. If this is your stance as a town player you need to drop it right now because it's poison, but I don't think you have to worry about that because I am almost sure you are mafia.
I still stand by my suspicions of players who supported me early on purely because a) there is no risk involved in backing me up if they know I'm town and b) the move provides easy credibility if I am lynched.
your whole post begins with me.
+ Show Spoiler +Gumshoe Has had to spend most of the game defending himself. Looking at what else he's done besides that, he suspects Gladius for spending too much time on commenting on the set up.
1) I didn't suspect gladius for the set up, I suspected gladius because he made really safe bets and was active in the thread but didn't see the need to take any risks like several other players did. You also didn't even post the second part of my anylysis which was just a few posts down
+ Show Spoiler +He has commented on ech and sloosh but only to suggest that they (more specifcaly ech) calm down, his responses are tame. He has seen no reason to take any big risks. Wether or not thats becuase hes trying to be a reasonable townie (as is most likely) or becuase hes trying to hide in plain site. I leave that up to you decide. I for one do not yet reason to doubt him.
This is very relevant information, in fact I consider it far more useful analysis than the comments on setup. You don't even mention how I pointed out that behaviour, you subtract everything except my comment on setup. I feel like you are actually playing down my suspicions and reducing them to just the comment on setup, which the following person would later say isn't really condemming:
+ Show Spoiler +Zell blade: I am null on MidnightGladius for now. His posts have been related to the setup as mentioned, but he did seem to focus alot on the setup in Newbie Mini Mafia III too. Could go either way for now.
+ Show Spoiler +Now onto MidnightGladius. I do not believe that he is mafia. He seems to be playing really similiar to NMMIII, where he (on day 1 at least) constantly posts fluff and speculates on the setup. However, ET raises some good points against MG, and I would like to see his responses especially to the "scumslip" raised by ET. I am not willing to lynch him for now.
+ Show Spoiler + I have also repetadely stated that MG is probably town - he seems to be playing similar to last game, with a tendancy to post fluff and speculation regarding the setup. I also didnt really find his actions condemning. However, having reread his filter and taken another look at ET's case, he does seem to have a tendancy to push only the easiest targerts
In all three of these he admits there is reason to suspect Mg,
but those reasons never seem to make him suspect Mg, in fact next time his comments on Mg the scum slip vanishes and is replaced with
+ Show Spoiler + I have also repetadely stated that MG is probably town - he seems to be playing similar to last game, with a tendancy to post fluff and speculation regarding the setup. I also didnt really find his actions condemning. However, having reread his filter and taken another look at ET's case, he does seem to have a tendancy to push only the easiest targerts
Notice how he keeps re-mentioning the setup? Thats because the setup argument isnt that strong alone, yet Zell continuously seems to suggest our strongest argument against Mg is the setup which really is'nt the case, our argument against mg is that he plays too soft and only attacks as he said easy targets and those who attack him.
This looks like teamwork. Hawk plays down my analysis of Mg and reduces it to me accusing Mg of commenting on the setup and Zell repeatedly mentions how this setup argument is'nt a valid basis for accusing Mg.
Also what the hell is this?
+ Show Spoiler +he (on day 1 at least) constantly posts fluff and speculates on the setup
how is this behaviour helpful to town? Also Mg has played like 1 or two games and you want to exonorate him because in his first or second game his play style was unhelpful? Cmon man, you cant be that blind. Dont worry though Zell when lynch him Mg we promise not even to bring up the setup kk?
ok that said I am making a case for Hawk not Mg or Zell, one scum at a time right?
Now moving onto the rest of that post regarding me!
+ Show Spoiler +
FOS's MannerKiss. Comments on how DimmuKlok made an accusation against "the most obvious runt" (Manner) and and the "second most obvious seeming runt" (himself). Later comments on how Ech and him are now the most obvious votes and pushes for Ech. These are the comments of somebody scrambling to stay alive, not scum.
Notice how he tries to discredit me further? He says I'm scrambling to stay alive, he makes me sound like someone desperate, someone willing to say anything to live, someone you shouldn't even remotely trust a word out of because they're not in their right mind, you know who sounds like that? Scum under pressure, yet whats his next line? not scum. He says it with such authority, much better players than hawk in this game are far less convinced that I'm town, but listen to that confidence. Not scum he says bah.
Hawk accomplishes three things with this post.
1)He makes me out to be out to be witless, which suggests that he's encouraging people people not to listen to what I've said so far, in other words don't listen to my accusation of Mg.
2)He protects himself in case I'm lynched and flip green.
3)Downplays the arguments against Mg that I made by just saying its suspicious how mg comments on setup, which sets up players like Zell to continuously mention how baseless the setup accusation is in his future defences of Mg.
His assurance that I'm town lays the boundaries for his next few accusations.
+ Show Spoiler +Steveling Pushes a no lynch and then says he just got confused on the day length. Pushes the gumshoe, who is already getting a lot of heat. Suspicious because no lynch is anti town, even if we had no real leads and because he focuses us back on gumshoe
Pounces on steveling for a newbie mistake, then accuses him of suspecting me. He does a similar thing with DYH if you read back on why he's suspicious of him.
+ Show Spoiler +Dim:Seems to be overly emphasizing that he is new to the game and busy. So am I, but I don't feel the need to state that every other post. Neutral.
makes himself out to be better than another player because hes less apologetic, oh hawk, you are aware that players are a bit nervous their first time right? Why you see the need to separate yourself from typically nervous new players is very interesting.
Mitch has also pointed out the several positive/null reads on zell mg and track so look back at that if you want.
Heres a nice jem that comes up. in regard to Ech
+ Show Spoiler +He then jumps along with jaj22's post and votes for Midnight. He would not be on my radar if it wasn't for that. I can't see a strong reason for the MidnightGladius vote especially with both the people voting for him not backing up their vote once it's questioned.
Contradiction. earlier you say:
+ Show Spoiler +Ech:Throws FOSs and Votes out very impulsively. Does not seem to have a plan, and could just be trying to cause unrest. Why say you had more to say about MidnightGladius being suspicious and then not say anything more? It's almost as if he voted for Midnight and then forgot why he was going to say he voted for him. Which a town would not do. Suspicious.
now here comes the biggest reason we should suspect Hawk which is also the most obvius.
+ Show Spoiler +
Provides the killing blow against dimm, this is suspicius within itself, but read what he says next.
+ Show Spoiler +*Panting*... ok, god.
Going to go eat.
Da fuck? Why you would leave just before you find out if the guy you just killed, is scum or not?
You are more invested than ANYONE in this result because YOU ARE THE REASON DIMM DIED! Yet you dont wait 6 seconds to find out the result? Why else would you not wait unless you already knew the outcome?
CAN I GET A PRAISE SCUMSLIP!!!!!!!
When he comes back ages later?
+ Show Spoiler +Alright, having reread some stuff after the flip,
Alderan was the first to put up a case for DDimmuKlok and stuck on him.
On February 19 2012 07:34 Alderan wrote:
Show nested quote +
Can someone please explain this sentiment? Am I missing something?
To my case he responded:
"I'm new, I'm new, I don't understand your case, I'm new."
His play after my case:
"I'm still on my gumshoe wagon, I don't know what to think about Midnight, I don't know what I think about Hawkin and Manner, and I'm too tired to give an opinion on Steveling"
If someone can please point me to the direction of pro town play I would greatly appreciate it.
And he is another player posting his inability to read Midnight and some weak calls.
Janaan was willing to switch to Ech from Dimmu to try to guarantee a lynch even though he said he didn't think Ech was scum.
On February 19 2012 06:27 Janaan wrote:
At this point, it's looking like the lynch will be either Echelon or a no-lynch. I am still undecided as to which I prefer. On the one hand, I'm not really getting a scum read from Echelon, just a aggressive townie. On the other, we need information. I am usually in favor of lynching, since it provides information that is unavailable any other way. If there's a no lynch, the voting record is almost entirely useless for the day. For now, I'll vote. I just hope that it's not a huge mistake.
##Unvote: DimmuKlok
##Vote: EchelonTee
But then he switches back to Dimmu and gets the bandwagon going on Dimmu started again. The reason he voted for Ech was because he didn't want a nolynch day one. Then he changes his mind and votes for a target he thinks will cause a nolynch.
On February 19 2012 07:08 Janaan wrote:
Show nested quote +
Yeah, I think after thinking about it for a bit longer, I really don't get scummy feelings from you at all, and I haven't since the game began. As SlOosh reminded me, lynching people you don't think mafia is not a good idea. Now I just need to decide who to actually vote for...
##Unvote: EchelonTee
On February 19 2012 08:18 Janaan wrote:
It seems that I'm the only one not voting atm. It really looks like unless something very drastic happens, we're gonna end up with a no-lynch. Of the cases presented, probably the one that made me think most was SlOosh's case against DoYouHas, but I'm still not ready to vote for him.
As for the case against MidnightGladius, I understand where Echelon is coming from, but I have slightly different opinions on Midnight.
I think I have to stick with my original read at this time, as much as I don't really want a no-lynch Day 1.
##Vote: DimmuKlok
He's willing to vote for somebody he doesn't think is town to guarantee a lynch, but then vote for somebody he thinks is scum to force a nolynch because it was his original read. Not only that, the reason he gave for changing his vote "I don't get a scummy feeling from you at all" is bogus. Janaan didn't have scummy feelings from Ech when voted for him. He already balanced the we need info vs. I don't want to lynch people I think are town in his head.
FOS Janaan
He comes back and doesn't even comment on the fact that he caused a misslnch?
First time townie my ass, if he was town he would be apologizing to oblivion for causing a mislynch, instead though he attacks Janaan! A player who hasn't even seemed remotley scummy up to this point. No one has accused Janaan exept me and that was my nightmare post, Hawk is using this useless tunnel on janaan to avoid commenting on the major cases at play. His tunnel on Janaan is founded in part on Janaan being suspicious of ME, again how is hawk so confident I'm town? Hes not even considering me as mafia, why? Because he know im not. Heres my favourite high light of his post
+ Show Spoiler +And he is another player posting his inability to read Midnight and some weak calls.
Umm you know who else does that...?
+ Show Spoiler +Like I said earlier, I still can't get a good read on Midnight, and looking through filters neither can a few other people. Even your accusation starts with "oh, screw it. I'm making a case." That makes me think you don't even believe the accusation yourself. You even say the only reason you did it was because you were bored. If you have something more since then to back it up, please post. Otherwise there is no way in hell I'm voting for Midnight based on just that.
You are putting suspicion on Janaan for not having a read on Mg which is something I would say you are notorious for. You are clearing yourself of suspiciun for a crime by showing how guilty someone else is for that exact same crime.
Fun fact: it is eons before you answer for the mislynch.
Oh here another defence of mg post in the meantime.
+ Show Spoiler +Thoughts on EchelonTee
I still don't buy the Midnight argument. There is sorta a WIFOM argument to his post's existence. Half the town had told him if he didn't post something against Midnight, we were lynching him. So, he posted something against Midnight. He'd post that regardless of whether he was town or scum.
On February 19 2012 07:24 EchelonTee wrote:
Show nested quote +
3..........this has to be a scum slip. FakePromise was a GREEN, TOWNIE last game. If you see another fakepromise, why are you voting him??? How is he being malicious, hes just making bad statistical analysis!! at this point you are pushing a terrible lynch.
So he thinks Midnight voting Gumshoe is a terrible lynch push and comparing Gumshoe to FakePromise is a scum slip.
On February 19 2012 09:27 EchelonTee wrote:
Show nested quote +
1. i'm not good. why suggest this so openly. this is my 4th game playing.
2. as mattchew said, this could be a scumslip; he knows I would flip green and is planting this.
After my aggressive opening towards gumshoe I dont know why he would support me as such.
Thoughts?
Oh so pushing Gumshoe back into the center of attention. Ech thinks Gumshoe could be scum now. So that means Midnight's push to lynch him wasn't terrible. So your justification for going after Midnight has gone away right? Nope.
On February 19 2012 09:38 EchelonTee wrote:
Show nested quote +
I still think he's scum. Going after Mattchew, Mannerkiss's replacement is consistent, so I can't fault him for that, but I can't agree with him wanting to vote him for 1. voting himself, aka OMGUS, and 2. being AWOL from thread with excuse. he could be using his phone you know. Or maybe he hasn't quite left yet. Point is, mattchew isn't being constructive but he not an autovote. especially because he's only posted a bit.
However, I think examining the other happenings in the thread is a good idea. I could endlessly tunnel Midnight, but I need to get a good look at the bigger picture. Besides, you really think its strange that I'm addressing the lynch that just happened, over midnight? I was literally the last voter on him, I should be scrutinized for doing so.
He defends Mg by casting doubt on mg's accuser. Hello indirect support! Hello scum 101!
+ Show Spoiler +That's the definition of WIFOM logic. Best not to over think it.
As for your suspicions against me because I was against the Midnight vote. I couldn't get a good read on Midnight, and neither can a lot of people. The only people who did have a read on him were reading him as scum. That fact alone is odd and suspicious.
I'm not sure Midnight is town, I'm just more comfortable following my own reads then blindly following somebody else's.
I hate it when players try to shut down conversation, this is exactly what Hawk is doing here. He also makes another attempt to discredit me without accusing me. Yet thats not the gem of this post, look at the bolded part.
Look, a townie's biggest job, the job that is the hardest and burdens them all throughout the game, is the job of convincing others that they are worth listening to. Hawk does not do this. He makes no attempt to contribute in a positive way, he is very hostile and the only person he doesn't seem to really suspect... is me. Hawk is not trying to convince us to trust him. He is trying to make himself distant.
By saying I follow my own reads he is essentially saying I trust myself and no one else. Which is a horrible thing to say for a town whose job it is to convince OTHER towns.There is no humanity in his posts, he is beyond cold. This bolded part suggests that when day three roles around he will bust open a huge case and expose all the mafia. Which isnt going to happen because in scenario a) he is town and no one listens to him because he comes off as hostile and suspicious and in scenario b) he is mafia and he is trying to make his opinions as useless as possible(just like he's trying to make mine.) without seeming blatantly suspicious.
Please someone tell I am wrong on all these accounts.
Tell me how Hawk wasn't the reason a townie died.
Tell me why he is actively trying to seem so hostile to the point that we will never listen to him.
Tell me how his tunnel on Janaan is useful.
Tell me how he's so sure that I am town.
But most of all please tell me a story about why this man is not mafia. So that I can tell you a story about why you are.
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On February 22 2012 04:51 EchelonTee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:33 Mattchew wrote:
btw you answered your own accusation here... he was a dt in the last game... he had more information that game
Are you even thinking? He posted those reads and all that content on D1, BEFORE he made any DT checks. He did absolutely nothing D1 this game except light, ineffectual pressure. It's not solely meta. DYH just.. hasn't been very pro-town at all and it makes me kind of sad. And while it's endearing for him to post that "you have to kill me today", he could've defended himself effectively if he had it in him, as in if he KNEW he was town. Mattchew, can we stop the town vs. town hate fest that is about to explode? Don't tell us to shut the fuck up, you're needlessly being an ass. We have to work together to get shit done, because it's assured that scum team will be working together to make us hate each other. That said, I stand by my support of your scum list. I find it funny that everyone disagrees with it; gotta be scum team saying "oh shit" in QT. at school. will post bigger later. where the hell is rG?
so then dont lynch a townie in DYH
vote hawk
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and you can talk again... but until sloosh loses his tunnel vision and actually starts reading the thread i refuse to listen to a word out his mouth
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GUM IF YOU CALL ME MITCH ONE MORE FUCKING TIME IM GOING TO RAGEQUIT THIS GAME
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EPT
