EPTHow will this build learn me to play terran when I cant even get past the 15min mark?
[G] Guide for low level Terrans. 3 Rax. - Page 9
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Pusekatten
Norway234 Posts
How will this build learn me to play terran when I cant even get past the 15min mark? | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
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crz1
Germany20 Posts
There is pretty much no general strategy which is suitable for all kinds of possible bos so scouting is always important (i always wanted to say that :D, though im still pretty bad in that). If you blindly follow an anti-banshee build, you will propably lose against other stuff. I think the positive feedback in this thread (and not to forget the effort of creating this thread by the OP) proves that this build is pretty successful in the lower leagues - which it's meant for. And its not supposed to give you detailed information on how to transfer into a heavy macro-lategame build, although there are some attempts to help you with that. Additionally you are supposed to win or severly cripple your enemy after ~8 mins and win from that on... if something like that goes wrong and you lose a lot of units you are generally pretty much screwed. Especially with some semi-allins like this build is. | ||
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cutler
Germany609 Posts
Normally i do expand and pull the rest of my arines back. Build an ebay for turrets and upgrades. Factory and Starport. I mostly get crushed by players taking to much bases. I try dropping...even tried to play mech which seems to me at least very difficult since siege tanks are pretty weak and thor are to slow. Do you guys have a good follow up if the defense of your opponent is to good? | ||
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artrea
Latvia3560 Posts
On February 14 2012 20:44 cutler wrote: so i made my way up to nearly Gold league with this build...now i am hitting an brick wall in gold. Everyone seem to defend easily versus this build and i have no clue what to do. Normally i do expand and pull the rest of my arines back. Build an ebay for turrets and upgrades. Factory and Starport. I mostly get crushed by players taking to much bases. I try dropping...even tried to play mech which seems to me at least very difficult since siege tanks are pretty weak and thor are to slow. Do you guys have a good follow up if the defense of your opponent is to good? Well, if they can hold their expansion to your first push, then yes, they will be ahead(everything else being equal), that is the crucial weakness of this build. Really no way around it. However, if you held them to one base, you should be fine and be able to outmacro them. | ||
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crz1
Germany20 Posts
I can only speak for myself here, but i've managed to get out of this hole a few times and still won - by far not always cause you are behind already. Just focus more on your macro than paying too much attention to micro your initial push (or defend an even earlier enemy push). I've been there already and it's really important to get up your expansion (maybe even before your first attack hits the enemy doors - when your army is on the way) and immediatly take more gases and factory & starport as soon as possible. It's situational which addons you put on factory and starport - and DONT forget upgrades/ghosts/other stuff if needed. Concentrate on the follow-up steps and dont mess up. [[Hey, it's so easy to write this stuff down, but i have trouble too to keep that all going]] After the OP-bo it's getting already quite complex at least for me as i'm not a very high rated player (in plat but i dont feel very platinish) and you have to be on top of your macro. There are so many things to think of and to get it well done but if you watch the replay you will find tons of things that you could have done better. And as bitterdam said last weekend at IEM: Don't watch the replays you lost, watch the replays you won.. there are still soooo many things you can improve - pretty good tip imho to keep the motivation up. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On February 14 2012 22:46 crz1 wrote: And as bitterdam said last weekend at IEM: Don't watch the replays you lost, watch the replays you won.. there are still soooo many things you can improve - pretty good tip imho to keep the motivation up. I wouldn't sign that, because you can get into the mindset of "i got away with this and that mistake and still won, so it wasn't too important". Imo watching replays of losses is the better way. However you could try to watch all your replays as if you've lost the match and search for mistakes. As for the follow up after this opening, when your opponent managed to defend against the push (@cutler): If you have taken your natural during the push you are probably not that far behind i guess. Usually you've still destroyed quite a bit of stuff, maybe even some of his workers (=economy) and have forced him to concentrate a bit more on producing army, because he has to be afraid that you'll push again soon (this is even more important against a Zerg). What unit combo you produce now is heavily dependant on the units of your opponent. I think your best bet is to try a follow up for each MU (like others chose 1 BO for each MU) with just a rough plan of what composition you want to have. Like for example MMM+Vikings against Protoss, maybe Bio+Mech against Zerg and Marine+Tank+Viking against Terran. Play around and try things out. Now a very wise man (who goes with the nick Day[9]  ) recently had a Daily (i think 406) about Lategame and managing bases, that is getting yourself more bases and denying your enemies bases, which is worth a look. It might help you with the problem of your enemies getting more bases and crushing you with just more stuff. | ||
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serum321
United States606 Posts
On February 14 2012 18:28 Pusekatten wrote: Worst build ever created, dies to absolutely every single banshee opening, which is about 90% of the times. How will this build learn me to play terran when I cant even get past the 15min mark? Really? I've been doing a pretty similar build for awhile now and I've seen two banshee openings. Mine hits a little earlier so I'm arriving at base around the time the banshee is popping out so just save energy for scan. I call down two mules and start saving energy. In this build the banshees are probably arriving at your base around the time you push out and what I would do in that situation is a base trade. Lift off your orbital, pull all scvs, and move everything to your opponents base. He will not have enough to defend with . This build should punish a 1/1/1 because all that economy he put into tech you put into units so you should easily be able to overwhelm your opponent. His only hope is to make a planetary fortress. | ||
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Pusekatten
Norway234 Posts
On February 15 2012 00:26 serum321 wrote: Really? I've been doing a pretty similar build for awhile now and I've seen two banshee openings. Mine hits a little earlier so I'm arriving at base around the time the banshee is popping out so just save energy for scan. I call down two mules and start saving energy. In this build the banshees are probably arriving at your base around the time you push out and what I would do in that situation is a base trade. Lift off your orbital, pull all scvs, and move everything to your opponents base. He will not have enough to defend with . This build should punish a 1/1/1 because all that economy he put into tech you put into units so you should easily be able to overwhelm your opponent. His only hope is to make a planetary fortress. Normaly they have a scouting scv or marine, or scan that sees Im going 3rax. And they put up bunkers accordingly. I have tried to conntinue my push, and rally all new units to his base, rally new marines to kill off the banshee in my base, and run marines back to my base. All off those pushes have been stoped by having 2 or in some cases 3 bunkers + helions who burn all my marines on the tiny ramp. | ||
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Khazidhea
Kazakhstan65 Posts
According to this: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all Terran is the least represented race in silver-master leagues. I can say that I play close to no TvTs in master league. Cant really comment on popularity of banshee opening in plat TvTs. But anyway, I really doubt that you are losing 90% of your games. If you are really afraid of banshees here is what you can do. Scan their main at 6 min - that's when starport will be usually constructed. Normal banshee comes out at 7:30, gas first banshee - a little bit earlier. If they scan you (letting scouting scv or marine in by the time you are commited to 3 rax is your own fault), see 3 rax and build bunkers - you can save scans (or get ebay\turrets), cut army production and expand earlier. Building 3 bunkers would delay his expansion by a lot. You should have no problem dealing with banshee if you are prepared like this. He cant really kill you with his army, because he spent all resources teching to banshees. I expect a plat level player to be able to do this sort of little tweaks to the build on their own, I cant cover all the possible situations in the game. I can however look at replays from time to time, so how about you post a replay? It doesnt take too long to do that and maybe I can give you some actual tips instead of pure theorycrafting. Did you watch replays? Did you hit benchmarks? | ||
aaycumi
England265 Posts
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Dapper_Cad
United Kingdom964 Posts
I have some comments about the focus of the video, things that I noticed which I thought could have been done better. They are mostly about focusing the guide a bit more for your audience; bronze to plat players. In the opening AI game you raced through control groups and hotkeys at quite a pace while going through the build. I think you would have been better off mentioning these in the intro in a kind of "These are the things you should already know about before you attempt to follow this guide" kind of thing. This isn't a guide for people who just picked up the game. At the end you were taking time to 8x through games after failed baneling busts, for my money this doesn't have much teaching value, it's a ton of pretty vague info delivered very quicky. You'd be better off pausing the game at the end of the bust and just saying: "I am now ahead". This is an opening guide not a complete match up guide. Maybe go over the composition (Marine, medivac, tank) again and talk briefly about priorities (Add tanks then medivacs for example) or decisions (tanks b4 expo or expo b4 tanks?). But I'm pretty much nit picking. Great job. | ||
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Trollface
United States15 Posts
If you start building a factory and grab your other three gas immediately after you expand, you could replace your 3 raxes with a factory and two starports, maybe pump out a raven just in case he goes for cloaked banshees, expand aggressively, and have a pretty effective/unexpected midgame composition against most Terrans. | ||
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Khazidhea
Kazakhstan65 Posts
In addition, after getting concussive and stim you are commited to bio or biomech play. Switching to bfh and air tech is too expensive. | ||
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Wren.822
United States28 Posts
On February 14 2012 18:28 Pusekatten wrote: Worst build ever created, dies to absolutely every single banshee opening, which is about 90% of the times. How will this build learn me to play terran when I cant even get past the 15min mark? You should be able to scout the banshee build pretty easily and prepare for it with a slight adjustment to your build. If when you scout with your SCV you see a gas running before the rax is finished (meaning 11 gas 13 rax) then you can expect fast banshees, because the point of the 11 gas opener is to get 100 gas right as the rax finishes so you can make a fact, and then throw down your 2nd gas so you can get the starport right as the fact finishes, techlab on fact, swap, and start banshees+cloak as soon you land. It is painfully obvious when this build is going down if you scout the 11 gas. For this reason you don't see 11gas/13rax often anymore. You will see the 12rax/13gas and then double-gas as the factory is going up. It delays the banshees, and sometimes also means no cloak if they are using their gas for anything else, but if you scan at about 5:20 and you spot the starport, or a naked factory, you should be suspicious. Begin cutting marauders in favor of add'l marines, throw down an ebay and prepare turrets because by 6-6:30 you will see the banshees. Generally the 1 turret in your mineral line, or 1 turret on the outside-edges of your gas geysers (depending on if you have double gas or single, and the amount of space behind the mineral line on the map) will prep you to stop banshee harass. Then you start +1 to get the additional utility from the ebay and resume your 3rax production as normal. On February 14 2012 20:44 cutler wrote: so i made my way up to nearly Gold league with this build...now i am hitting an brick wall in gold. Everyone seem to defend easily versus this build and i have no clue what to do. Normally i do expand and pull the rest of my arines back. Build an ebay for turrets and upgrades. Factory and Starport. I mostly get crushed by players taking to much bases. I try dropping...even tried to play mech which seems to me at least very difficult since siege tanks are pretty weak and thor are to slow. Do you guys have a good follow up if the defense of your opponent is to good? Cutler: don't overcommit your army to the attack - scan his natural/ramp ahead of your army (depending on if you know whether or not he expanded) and see what kind of defenses he has. If it looks like you can't break him, test the waters and see if he's paying attention - just little pokes and prods. If it really seems like you can't do it, pull back, expand, get your second gas and begin siege tank production, cut marauders, and get a marine/tank/medivac/viking composition. You will likely still have some marauders, which is fine. If you want to begin double-producing medivacs, you will need 4 saturated gas geysers, so don't start medivac production too early. You can survive on marine/tank with a few vikings to establish air dominance, or to at least contest your opponent's air dominance. Once you have siege tanks and a few vikings think about expanding again so you're on a 3-base economy. You will want a LOT of barracks to dump minerals into marines, on 3 base I would consider 7rax, 2 fact, 2 starport - rax and ports with reactors, facts with xlabs with 6 saturated gasses for massive marine/tank/medivac/viking production. Also do NOT NEGLECT UPGRADES! Double ebay and an armory, get infantry upgrades and vehicle +1 wep, or (if you see more air/air upgrades from your opponent) get +1 ship armor because they may be considering a sky terran switch. | ||
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sircuddles
Canada91 Posts
compared to yours? They're both very similar, except this one pushes out 50 seconds earlier (with Stim finishing around when you'd arrive at enemy base, and Concussive Shell sooner) and gives you more marines early to help with early pressure (like busts). I'd drop the Reapers from it for lower levels, as it requires heavy micro. At around 7:30~ the unit counts are also very similar, although the push timing is a lot earlier. Thoughts? | ||
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mihajovics
179 Posts
I have a very tough time in TvZ though. If zerg doesn't stay on 1 base, I basically lose, which is 2/3 of the time. I check the benchmarks, I hit 27-29 SCV-s by 7:30, and the 7 marauders and 13 marines finish within 7:40. The problem is that by the time I get to the opponents natural, especially on bigger maps, They have ~20 army supply with 2-3 queens and 2-3 spines, tons of larva that can pop 26 zerglings in a flash and clean up everything. My reinforcement's are much slower than zerg's. It seems impossible to deny the expansion, usually I can't even take out drones to deal some economic damage. And in the meantime zergs have MORE workers, a running expansion, more tech and almost equal to equal army. If I retreat, they just over run me by the time I can macro up tanks and medivacs to push out. I tried cutting production when I scout the expansion and immediately expand myself and rush into tank-marine-medivac, but I'm still behind and it feels one sided. Any input, advice to help me improve is welcome! Perhaps an alternate build? Thank you! | ||
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Sennin
Belgium50 Posts
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mihajovics
179 Posts
Is this true even if I take my natural way after zerg does? So should I cut production and expand when I see an early hatch zerg or just follow the build and expand at the 8 min mark, denying zerg's third with the ~30 supply army? | ||
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