On February 14 2012 00:03 KAmaKAsa wrote:
why are people still trying mech?
why are people still trying mech?
cuz it's more fun than stupid m&m vs colossus shitty a-move
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Garmer
1286 Posts
On February 14 2012 00:03 KAmaKAsa wrote: why are people still trying mech? cuz it's more fun than stupid m&m vs colossus shitty a-move | ||
KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On February 14 2012 00:28 Garmer wrote: cuz it's more fun than stupid m&m vs colossus shitty a-move yeah.. and this game has no depht and its just 1a + t against any unit composition | ||
crocodile
United States615 Posts
On February 14 2012 00:16 KAmaKAsa wrote: Show nested quote + On February 14 2012 00:00 crocodile wrote: On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp. going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots. Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight. You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant. I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style. You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think thing about BFH against zealots... is that they have very slow firerate and they do 19 damage per shot against a zealot and zealots usually arent in a line and zealots have 50 shields and 100 health even if you EMP you still have to hit ONE zealot for 6 shots to kill it and your hellions are usually dead after shooting once or twice because of the tank splash... zealots do high damage as it is and with tanks you have tank splash to hit your MM AND the stalkers/colossus and possible storms the armor helps alot against the zealot/stalker/colossus damage, because they all attack twice so you get double the damage reduction. A MMM/ghost/viking army is much better than any sort of army that involves mech, reason being that marines have the highest dps against every protoss unit except stalker and colossus from the terran army and you have your vikings to kill the colossus and you should have around 8-14 ghosts to emp everything and a few marauders to tank zealots while your marines clean them up and also you shouldnt have more than 4 medivacs.. preferably 2 since that takes a bit from your army supply and you really should only stim once in the engagement. The blueflame harass is kind of an extra thing, but you shouldn´t rely on it since eventually people are going to get better with building positioning and leaving a few units/building cannons etc and then that wont do any damage, it should be so that you can go mech from an even game and win from an even position and not from ahead Have you ever tried this composition? You're explaining in detail how the battles would play out, which is an understanding I would think you can only really get from trying it. The Hellions DO help out vs Chargelots a lot in my experience, and while the armor is important, as I've explained to you, my significant experience with this composition tells me that it's not as useful as the added DPS of Tanks and Hellions. All I'm saying is my experience indicates the exact opposite of what you're saying, which in all honestly just leads me to believe you've never tried it and are theorycrafting. Or at the very least you have tried it a few times and failed miserably, then blamed the composition instead of trying to learn to play it correctly. | ||
GinDo
3327 Posts
If your opponent is stupid enough not to do those things then you have an even match. Somewhat...... You have to have alot of hellion/banshee harass for it to work. | ||
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
You always want to research vehicle weapons unless you scout an immortal bust then research vehicle armor (this is because thors gain more from armor against robo units then they do from weapons). Vehicle armor is useless against immortals and is near useless against colossi. If the bust is incoming you'd best just dont make any ugrades at all. | ||
KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On February 14 2012 00:39 crocodile wrote: Show nested quote + On February 14 2012 00:16 KAmaKAsa wrote: On February 14 2012 00:00 crocodile wrote: On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp. going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots. Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight. You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant. I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style. You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think thing about BFH against zealots... is that they have very slow firerate and they do 19 damage per shot against a zealot and zealots usually arent in a line and zealots have 50 shields and 100 health even if you EMP you still have to hit ONE zealot for 6 shots to kill it and your hellions are usually dead after shooting once or twice because of the tank splash... zealots do high damage as it is and with tanks you have tank splash to hit your MM AND the stalkers/colossus and possible storms the armor helps alot against the zealot/stalker/colossus damage, because they all attack twice so you get double the damage reduction. A MMM/ghost/viking army is much better than any sort of army that involves mech, reason being that marines have the highest dps against every protoss unit except stalker and colossus from the terran army and you have your vikings to kill the colossus and you should have around 8-14 ghosts to emp everything and a few marauders to tank zealots while your marines clean them up and also you shouldnt have more than 4 medivacs.. preferably 2 since that takes a bit from your army supply and you really should only stim once in the engagement. The blueflame harass is kind of an extra thing, but you shouldn´t rely on it since eventually people are going to get better with building positioning and leaving a few units/building cannons etc and then that wont do any damage, it should be so that you can go mech from an even game and win from an even position and not from ahead Have you ever tried this composition? You're explaining in detail how the battles would play out, which is an understanding I would think you can only really get from trying it. The Hellions DO help out vs Chargelots a lot in my experience, and while the armor is important, as I've explained to you, my significant experience with this composition tells me that it's not as useful as the added DPS of Tanks and Hellions. All I'm saying is my experience indicates the exact opposite of what you're saying, which in all honestly just leads me to believe you've never tried it and are theorycrafting. Or at the very least you have tried it a few times and failed miserably, then blamed the composition instead of trying to learn to play it correctly. The point i was trying to make is that the tank splash hurts your MM and hellions and chargelots arent clumped up after they charge so you would need to targetfire stalkers/sentrys/templars or w/e which automaticly kind of spread out so they can all shoot so they are not in a clump either so the tanks really dont do that much damage and also there are the archons and zealots and immortals soaking up the tank damage while storms and colossus kills your tanks. and to the upgrade part the mechanic weapons upgrade doesnt scale as well as the infantry one does because marines and marauders have lower damage and faster fire rate so they really dont do that much more damage than they do originally Also when you have to get all these different kind of things you really dont have that much of anything... tanks/hellions/marines/marauders/medivacs/vikings/ghosts and you do need atleast like 6 full energy ghosts to nullify some of the archon shields and the immortals and you need vikings to kill the colossus, because they just do alot of damage. tanks and hellions do have low dps against protoss units, because they dont really clump up in an engagement and the splash makes tanks a good unit but theres not much splash that tanks can do in TvP. And no I haven´t really tried that ever, because i haven´t felt any need to play other then the standard MMM/ghost/viking style TvP, since it is very good and viable and it does beat a protoss deathball in a lategame situation, because of the high dps,emp and vikings killing the colossus before they do too much damage and you will have an army advantage of around 30 supply because the protoss needs to have more workers to have an equal economy to you because of the MULE | ||
Norseman
United States223 Posts
I've been trying to find a mech build that works for a while now and I know how hard it's been and how much work you've put into this. I can't wait to give your build a shot and see how I can work some of it into my own builds. I think it's awesome you've found something that works for you and took the time to post it here. Ignore the haters. I go through this day in and day out when I try to practice a new twist or use mech on ladder and people give me all sorts of crap about it. The sad thing is most players don't have the ability to think outside the box and come up with builds themselves. Unfortunately it's going to take a high level pro to unlock the perfect build/unit composition before all the sheep jump off the bio bandwagon and start praising how strong mech is and how fragile and weak bio is. A majority of players aren't smart enough to experiement and try new ideas, to think outside the box, so until a pro force feeds them a build, and holds their hand to help them do it via replays and build orders, they'll simply keep shouting about how it'll never work. My hats off to you, man. I know how much time and effort goes into this type of thing and I definitely appreciate you going the extra step and sharing it with all of us here. Thanks for contributing! If you ever want to compare notes or bounce ideas off each other please PM me and I'll be more than happy to. I play on the NA server. | ||
crocodile
United States615 Posts
On February 14 2012 01:00 KAmaKAsa wrote: Show nested quote + On February 14 2012 00:39 crocodile wrote: On February 14 2012 00:16 KAmaKAsa wrote: On February 14 2012 00:00 crocodile wrote: On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp. going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots. Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight. You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant. I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style. You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think thing about BFH against zealots... is that they have very slow firerate and they do 19 damage per shot against a zealot and zealots usually arent in a line and zealots have 50 shields and 100 health even if you EMP you still have to hit ONE zealot for 6 shots to kill it and your hellions are usually dead after shooting once or twice because of the tank splash... zealots do high damage as it is and with tanks you have tank splash to hit your MM AND the stalkers/colossus and possible storms the armor helps alot against the zealot/stalker/colossus damage, because they all attack twice so you get double the damage reduction. A MMM/ghost/viking army is much better than any sort of army that involves mech, reason being that marines have the highest dps against every protoss unit except stalker and colossus from the terran army and you have your vikings to kill the colossus and you should have around 8-14 ghosts to emp everything and a few marauders to tank zealots while your marines clean them up and also you shouldnt have more than 4 medivacs.. preferably 2 since that takes a bit from your army supply and you really should only stim once in the engagement. The blueflame harass is kind of an extra thing, but you shouldn´t rely on it since eventually people are going to get better with building positioning and leaving a few units/building cannons etc and then that wont do any damage, it should be so that you can go mech from an even game and win from an even position and not from ahead Have you ever tried this composition? You're explaining in detail how the battles would play out, which is an understanding I would think you can only really get from trying it. The Hellions DO help out vs Chargelots a lot in my experience, and while the armor is important, as I've explained to you, my significant experience with this composition tells me that it's not as useful as the added DPS of Tanks and Hellions. All I'm saying is my experience indicates the exact opposite of what you're saying, which in all honestly just leads me to believe you've never tried it and are theorycrafting. Or at the very least you have tried it a few times and failed miserably, then blamed the composition instead of trying to learn to play it correctly. The point i was trying to make is that the tank splash hurts your MM and hellions and chargelots arent clumped up after they charge so you would need to targetfire stalkers/sentrys/templars or w/e which automaticly kind of spread out so they can all shoot so they are not in a clump either so the tanks really dont do that much damage and also there are the archons and zealots and immortals soaking up the tank damage while storms and colossus kills your tanks. and to the upgrade part the mechanic weapons upgrade doesnt scale as well as the infantry one does because marines and marauders have lower damage and faster fire rate so they really dont do that much more damage than they do originally Also when you have to get all these different kind of things you really dont have that much of anything... tanks/hellions/marines/marauders/medivacs/vikings/ghosts and you do need atleast like 6 full energy ghosts to nullify some of the archon shields and the immortals and you need vikings to kill the colossus, because they just do alot of damage. tanks and hellions do have low dps against protoss units, because they dont really clump up in an engagement and the splash makes tanks a good unit but theres not much splash that tanks can do in TvP. And no I haven´t really tried that ever, because i haven´t felt any need to play other then the standard MMM/ghost/viking style TvP, since it is very good and viable and it does beat a protoss deathball in a lategame situation, because of the high dps,emp and vikings killing the colossus before they do too much damage and you will have an army advantage of around 30 supply because the protoss needs to have more workers to have an equal economy to you because of the MULE So basically you've come here to say "hey guys, I've never tried mech or biomech, but I've come to tell you why it doesn't work. Thanks to my extensive experience with ONLY bio, I can tell you exactly why this style that I've never tried will not work in theory." You've been consistently describing hypothetical battle situations where the biomech army crumples to the Protoss army. Why don't I do the same for bio? I'll give an example of what your points sound like to me, considering I've played biomech, using bio for comparison: Bio won't work against Protoss because it's really hard for bio to DPS hard enough to kill large numbers of chargelots or archons before the units all die to storms and colossus. Colossi just MELT bio units, they will always kill your army faster than vikings can stop them, especially since good Protoss will just kill the Vikings with stalkers and archons. Also feedback and good colossus usage will negate EMPs from having any effect. Also, drops aren't effective because Protoss can just warp in a bunch of chargelots and the drop gets stopped before doing any damage. Now, you know that all of the above statement is untrue due to your experience with bio. However, in theory, it could make sense that way. The fact is there are other factors that determine who wins battles and games in TvP than theoretical battles: you have to try it. As for the one semi-legitimate argument you made about upgrades: Tank upgrades scale well because at the +2 and +3 level, it starts taking less hits for Tanks to kill their targets (Stalkers, Colossi, High Templar), regardless of the targets' upgrades. This is not to mention how much they make it easier for the bio, which is not actually much smaller in number than a normal bio army is in TvP, to kill their targets. Hellions do a lot of damage to Zealots and Sentries anyway, and since I usually have about ~10 Blue Flame Hellions in my army, when the Zealots all charge in at once, they will melt the entire first wave in one volley. Also, think of the tanks in this composition as super-long range ghosts, except they can kill units. A volley from ~8 tanks will do as much, if not more damage than a bunch of EMPs, and they can keep firing. They will snipe the HTs before they cast storm, they can dual with colossi, they annihilate stalkers, they weaken archon shields, they even bruise the zealots. My point is, Tanks DO do a lot of damage. Also, if you're still worried about colossi in this case, who said you can't add vikings? I add vikings when I scout colossi with biomech just like any normal bio player would. About Protoss clumping up: no, they do not clump up badly in an open area: generally, this is why we don't want to engage Protoss in an open area. In the same way we don't want to engage anything in an open area with tanks EVER, IN ANY MATCHUP. This is intuitive advice that goes with tank usage anyway: it's always better to engage in chokes, which is why I don't use tanks in TvP on maps where that's a difficult task (I prefer Thor builds for those, but that's a different discussion entirely). | ||
crocodile
United States615 Posts
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-396-p4-terran-week-mech-in-tvp-5867410 sound familiar? | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
This is why tvp mech doesn't work | ||
TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On February 14 2012 05:49 Gyro_SC2 wrote: This is why tvp mech doesn't work People do mech all the time, and it can win. Illusion does it all the time on his stream, hell we even saw MKP do it in the GSL vs Genius. I do it every game vs protoss. And on the diamond level, I have around a 70% win rate. So instead of trying to stunt game development, why don't you do something useful? | ||
crocodile
United States615 Posts
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tom_baburger
United States23 Posts
On February 14 2012 00:59 Cheerio wrote: Show nested quote + You always want to research vehicle weapons unless you scout an immortal bust then research vehicle armor (this is because thors gain more from armor against robo units then they do from weapons). Vehicle armor is useless against immortals and is near useless against colossi. If the bust is incoming you'd best just dont make any ugrades at all. sorry I think I said that wrong... I meant to say you should get vehicle army if its a non-immortal bust it is better to get armor. A situation where you would need to get armor is if you scout a 6 gate or something of the sorts. Never get more than 1 armor because tanks don't benefit from armor as much as they benefit from attack. Thanks for catching that! | ||
tom_baburger
United States23 Posts
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On February 14 2012 00:00 crocodile wrote: Show nested quote + On February 13 2012 16:15 rauk wrote: mech without ghosts has zero way to deal with archons. if he has archons, he will roll your army, always. in a 200/200 situation, mech will always lose to protoss. for instance look at MKP vs genius on dual sight, MKP is ahead by 80 supply and he still almost loses his entire army to archon zealot. furthermore, you can't deal with warp prism harass, because mech is garbage in small amounts, which means you always have to pull your whole army back or risk either losing what's left out on the field or being unable to deal with his drop. you can't deal with blink stalker + colossi harass into your main because you will lose your army going back up your own main ramp. going biomech is also garbage because you sacrifice the mobility advantage bio gives you for a negligible dps increase along with the increased cost of getting triple ups which decreases your production capabilities or sacrificing bio armor which is pretty important vs zealots. Negligible DPS increase? Think about what you're saying for a second. The main issue with Terran vs Protoss right now is the Toss will max out quicker, with better upgrades and an army composition (Templar/Colossus) that Bio just doesn't seem to beat in a straight up fight. You're saying that by sacrificing Bio armor for Tank DPS, you're going to overall weaken your army. Tanks do large burst damage that scales extremely well with upgrades, and basically is large enough to ignore the Protoss upgrades. That's why Tank DPS is so significant. I can also say through experience that the presence of Medivacs is more important for keeping your Bio alive than armor upgrades, which you can still afford once you get to three bases anyway, and overall a Biomech army is also greatly strengthened by the addition of Blue Flame Hellions, which do extremely well when they're not being relied on to be meat shields and can help to kill those pesky Charge Zealots extremely effectively. Overall Tanks and BFHellions are extremely useful in TvP and I'd recommend you don't knock it till you've tried Warden's Biomech style. You can still take advantage of Bio mobility anyway: you can drop and draw the Protoss army out of position while you take good tank positioning, just like in ZvT. The weaknesses you've mentioned actually do not exist with properly played Biomech. It's stronger than you think i played nothing but tank/hellion/viking + ghost in tvp for about 5 months at mid/high masters. if you're not doing some kind of 2 base allin, it is NOT viable against anyone who isn't retarded. tank dps is shit because zealots have too much health and are light, and close in too fast. tanks are only good for killing stalkers, and they can't even do that when toss has blink. they also die far too quickly to colossi. notice how in 1/1/1 allins tanks aren't there to do damage; they just force toss back into their base or else take free damage. all the real dps is done by your marines or banshees. igniter hellions die to colossi very quickly. you can't kite zealots because your tanks don't move. they deal shit damage to stalkers because shields don't take full damage in sc2. they are totally useless. thors are a waste of supply and minerals if your opponent isn't going phoenix colossi. they add a total of zero to the fight after the strike cannon nerf. then marines without bio armor vs 3/3 zealot archon just die instantly. also note how warden's biomech thread is almost a year old and is no longer updated, i doubt even he would claim it's viable anymore. | ||
Origine
France167 Posts
On February 14 2012 05:55 TBone- wrote: And on the diamond level, Ok? GSL games shouldnt be mentionned out of context: every single players are figuring BO out to surprise their opponents and catch them of guard and stuff. edit: after watching avilo's video, he's so right even tho it seems QQing/whiny whatever, he's right | ||
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
edit: I've seen Rainbow tearing apart m/gm NA Protosses with Hellion/Tank/Viking/(Cloaked banshee) + Ghosts.. But this only tells you really one think, you must be way better then your Protoss opponent to pull it off.. | ||
rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
On February 13 2012 14:17 crocodile wrote: Show nested quote + On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote: You´re talking trash. Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll. Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad. You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing. Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all. You can t harass else you get picked apart. Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable. If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you. MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws: Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields. Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army. Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit. I can't actually argue with you because from your points, it's clear you've never actually used biomech. You've got the mindset that Day9 always talks about in that it's incredibly unproductive and ignorant: X counters Y, so I can't do Y! If you want, I can post dozens of replays of me winning TvP with both Thor and Tank-based Biomech and winning almost every time. TvP is my strongest matchup right now because I play it that way. Everything you've said about biomech is incorrect because you clearly haven't used it before. You're always behind in upgrades even when going bio, so saying your bio is behind with biomech is absolutely pointless. It's a fact of TvP. You can afford upgrades from 1 Ebay 1 Armory for attack on both bio and vehicles. This is sufficient for dealing with Protoss all game with this comp. Also, it's clear you've never used Mech either, or at least faced a good Protoss with it, because I guarantee you a production cycle of tanks and a group of Hellions out of position will not only fail to deal with Blink Stalkers, you will be out of position when the Protoss charges your line with Chargelot/Colossus. If this hasn't happened to you, you're not playing good Protosses. You re talking trash again. 1/0 and 1/0 on bio and mech is basically 1/0 on a bio or Pure Mech army. For that cash and time you can get 1/1 on either of the 2 and use only 1 of it. Both of which are viable. A production cycle of tanks while on 2 base is 2 tanks. Assuming a decent blink or warp-in of 10 stalkers, 2 tanks+ whatever hellions pop+ whatever hellions you retreat can deal with it provided you use REPAIR.Zeals, Dt s are kited. And no, buddy, i dont pull all my hellions off my push.You think I m crazy? I m not leaving naked tanks near a Pylon. Ever. Just make sure that while you defend the warp/blink you Actually either retreat your tanks, or threaten his probe line. Stalkers and Collosi are the only units that kill hellions fast enough to make harass unviable.Even then it´s possible to do damage, Assuming you get +1 mech attack.This upgrade rocks. | ||
Elp
Netherlands86 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:39 tom_baburger wrote: I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input! With respect, but the replays you posted in the OP do not show Mech works versus Protoss. I watched the 1st replay, the 2nd and the 6th. I'll explain what won the game in those three games, and im sorry to say it has very little to do with mech. 1. You were 80 food ahead, when you are 80 food ahead it doesn't matter what kind of army you use, you win anyway. Also, the protoss had a very bad army composition to face a Mech army. It was mostly stalkers with no blink. 2. Around 7 minutes you move into the Protoss base with some hellions, at that point the Protoss had build 0 combat unit, he had 26 probes and thats it. You could have ran in 5 marines and won the game right there, even earlier. 6. This one is more complicated, but in the end it comes down to some good hellion runs killing a lot of probes and more importantly: The protoss was way behind on upgrades and moved into a 20+ siege tank line on the high ground. There is no ground army in the game that can efficiently beat 20+ upgraded siege tanks in a choke, especially when the siege tanks have weapons upgrade at 3. Protoss could have expanded all over the map, blink up in the main on the side of the base, harass with warp prism. Moving an inferior army into a siege line of death doesn't necessarily mean Mech works. I don't mean to be rude, because if there's anyone that wants to see mech work its me and i applaud your effort to make it work. But, i have never really seen a VOD or replay that proves mech works vs Protoss. A replay/VOD where Terran goes mech and the Protoss responds correctly by getting the right unit composition and exploiting the weaknesses of mech and: terran still wins. Most of the VOD that cover a mech vs Protoss are decided by either Hellions melting a lot of probes or cloak banshee's killing a lot of probes. The Mech that comes after is just a formality, the game was already won anyway. | ||
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