On February 15 2012 18:44 tdt.Baki wrote: It's good somoene posted a new guide on mech. I was thinig about experimenting with it, my idea was to start with bio. Geting 2-3 rax, stim & combat shield, mabye 1/1; 2/0 upgrades also later in game, a switch into only marrines from those rax can also be considered due to mech eating alot of gas; and then transition into mech. This should keep you safe against fast warprism/b-stalker rush and later on punish mass expanding if it occurs.
Another very important thing, Mass hellions beat any ground clumped up Protoss army due to their AoE attack i don't think anyone has noticed that yet. In fact I was about to test a mass hellion reactor expand tactic but i got shut down twice by my enemy going phoenixes :d It might however find it's use in mech, someone above said that you can't stop stalkers with hellions, well i think you can, you just need the right positioning.
I'm top masters if it counts.
The problem with starting with bio is that the transition is really tough to pull off. You can't just build 3 factories in the middle your bio game and say you are going mech. You have too much investments in bio I just don't think it is viable. It is no doubt a lot safer in the earlier game but I think there would be a huge unit deficit when you start making the factories. If you have a game of this working please upload a rep.
I would also like to note that the thors are strictly defensive units. If I had found away to open tank hellion without losing to every single rush right before siege mode, then I would use it. Hellions and tanks are strong in really high numbers while the opposite is true for thors. Thors can be surrounded by scvs and made nearly impossible to kill in the early game.
On February 14 2012 17:19 Inty wrote: So I have been practicing mech against toss on and off ever since day9 did his tvp mech daily and here are a few notes I have picked up from watching vileIllusion, BeastyQT, and Jjakji, and day9 tvp mech daily.
It is usually safer to do a 1-1-1 before going full mech be it a 1-1-1 into expand or gasless expo → 1-1-1. •This is not the all in 1-1-1 you can go cloaked banshee with a reactored rax -> expo while not getting tanks or thors until you plant the cc down. •The reactored barracks is very important it helps you hold certain all ins and makes dealing with stargate play easier(still hard but manageable) •Going for cloaked banshee with a reactored rax is the safest opening as you can punish the protoss if they get to greedy or all in without an obs. •It is also very helpful to get a raven when going mech going 1-1-1 easily allows you to do it.
1. Thors seem to be better than tanks in the early/early mid game because... •they are very beefy and will not die easily to gateway armies •if the toss gets greedy you can easily kill him as force fields are inefective •they are not very mobile but they are still more mobile than tanks and getting caught out of position will not straight up kill you
2. If you do get thors the armor upgrade is a lot better •armor makes thors last even longer against gateway units because zealots and stalkers do two hits for their damage this •adds to the longevity of your army and getting loosing less units will help you get a faster max.
3. Banshees are really good to mix into your army because... •they force stalkers which are bad against mech •if you kill their stalkers you have free reign against the zealots+whatever(except archons) •they do insane damage •allow you to respond to drops easier(still hard though)
4. You NEED ghosts, if you dont have enough gas budget your production so that you do... •ghosts are good get them •no really they get rid of shields and deal with immortals, archons, and high templars
•get sensor towers they are very good at spotting incoming stuff you can kill warp prism with vikings before they get to warp in or get your army into position if they are moving blink stalkers in
•get turrets up in key positions
•getting terran building armor and turret/pf range is good lateish game
•if you decide to go hellions then warp prism harass if easier to deal with just pull back the hellions/and or banshees. If they warped in zealots free units, if stalkers try to move more units or wait for reinforcements from your factories
when you get your third begin ghost production @3rd start making more tanks @3rd scout to see his composition and adjust accordingly @3rd begin making hellions if that's the way you want to go*
My personal thoughts... I feel like sticking to marines and banshees instead of hellions and tanks is a better composition. They allow you to more mobile while still dealing a similar amount of damage and relies a little less on killing your opponents economy. The tradeoff being that this composition does not control space as well as the tanks would.
Viable but still needs work... I think mech is definitely viable at lower levels and especially on ladder since you get more of an element of surprise and the toss will not always deal with it correctly. Currently mech is viable as a once in a while in a BoX series at a pro level Eventually as mech gets more and more discovered and researched it might become mainstream but still needs more work.
When I mech I do all of those plus two more things and they make an unbelievable difference in how well you do 1. Build Barracks, engineering bays, PFs, or depos to block archon and zealot attack routes. You are terran you can build wherever you want mech greatly benefits by not being in an open area and by defending choke points use these buildings give your self chokes. -The engineering bay is cheap and has alot of health but you can't move it so to get through you have to either cancel or kill it. -Barracks slightly more expensive but you can liftoff to allow easy entrance and exit -Depos build fast you need them anyway and are small enough to where the toss needs to get close to kill them -PF's build them in vital chokes put them on cliffs where stalkers might try to do a blink by.
2. For aa dont just use turrets and vikings build ravens. By effective use of your sensor towers you a few hellions and ravens can deal with any blink ins I find. Even when not defending against air the ravens can still help you just have to be a little more careful with where you put your pdds when templar are involved.
Tomba - I watched all your reps and came to a similar conclusion. In the games you won, it seemed as though you had successfuly hellion runbys and drops that roasted a lot of probes. I would be interested in seeing any replays of games you have where you either do less probe harass or the protoss defends better against it, and then we really get to see your near max Mech army face up against a similar supply Toss army. Of course, this is not to deny the importance of hellion harass as it is a staple of Mech play in general. However, the big question on people's mind is whether Mech does well against an equal food Toss Army with similar upgrades.
On February 14 2012 06:39 tom_baburger wrote: I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input!
With respect, but the replays you posted in the OP do not show Mech works versus Protoss. I watched the 1st replay, the 2nd and the 6th. I'll explain what won the game in those three games, and im sorry to say it has very little to do with mech.
1. You were 80 food ahead, when you are 80 food ahead it doesn't matter what kind of army you use, you win anyway. Also, the protoss had a very bad army composition to face a Mech army. It was mostly stalkers with no blink.
2. Around 7 minutes you move into the Protoss base with some hellions, at that point the Protoss had build 0 combat unit, he had 26 probes and thats it. You could have ran in 5 marines and won the game right there, even earlier.
6. This one is more complicated, but in the end it comes down to some good hellion runs killing a lot of probes and more importantly: The protoss was way behind on upgrades and moved into a 20+ siege tank line on the high ground. There is no ground army in the game that can efficiently beat 20+ upgraded siege tanks in a choke, especially when the siege tanks have weapons upgrade at 3. Protoss could have expanded all over the map, blink up in the main on the side of the base, harass with warp prism. Moving an inferior army into a siege line of death doesn't necessarily mean Mech works.
I don't mean to be rude, because if there's anyone that wants to see mech work its me and i applaud your effort to make it work. But, i have never really seen a VOD or replay that proves mech works vs Protoss. A replay/VOD where Terran goes mech and the Protoss responds correctly by getting the right unit composition and exploiting the weaknesses of mech and: terran still wins.
Most of the VOD that cover a mech vs Protoss are decided by either Hellions melting a lot of probes or cloak banshee's killing a lot of probes. The Mech that comes after is just a formality, the game was already won anyway.
Before I start, Thank you for actually watching the games that I posted; because some people posting see the title and argue that it doesn't work. Next I would like to state that this isn't stating officially that mech should take over bio and that mech is the best strategy. I have just found a way that works for me, in diamond league, not masters and I wanted to share that with team liquid. The next point is that mech DOES rely on harassing with hellions; that is one of the advantages of playing mech. To be truthful I don't think I have had a game yet where hellion harass has not done damage. This may be because I am only in diamond league or it may be because nobody can defend every relentless attempt to harass with hellions. Maybe mech is not as good in the final battle as I think it is but its quite hard to break down the battle as rock, paper, scissors as some people are doing. All I see is that I am consistently winning TvP's; something that I never was able to do with bio. P.S: If I do find a game that I do not get in and do tons of damage with hellions then I will be sure to post it (win or loss); assuming its not cheese or very early game wins.
I think people are forgetting that tanks are not the only mech units in the game. I've been going through this thread and everyone who says mech doesn't work keep referring to how much tank sucks. I mech with great sucess against protoss at mid master level and i hardly every use tanks. Thor based mech armies are the way go, with ghost viking bf hellion support, ect.
The reason mech isn't viable for the pros is not because the max army is weak but because mech openings are extremely vulnerable. Pro players will study opponents before matches and can spot weaknesses in mech builds that they can abuse (they can use blink stalker, waprism timings ect). This is why pros dont use mech because they know they know they can suffer easy build order losses.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't. If you just ladder casually or play with friends: why cant you use mech? A maxed army of thors hellions and ghosts absolutely wrecks protoss in late game. If you can slowly build to this army and not die to timing attacks or harass builds then you should be in really good shape for the late game. In fact i usually take my third around the same time as bio builds and i feel much more confident taking 4ths or 5ths. Basically if the protoss doesn't harass you heavily or catch you offguard with an early all in, your pretty much going to roll his army(providing you macro and micro well ofcourse). Mech is crazy awesome in late game =D
On February 18 2012 16:05 RedMosquito wrote: I think people are forgetting that tanks are not the only mech units in the game. I've been going through this thread and everyone who says mech doesn't work keep referring to how much tank sucks. I mech with great sucess against protoss at mid master level and i hardly every use tanks. Thor based mech armies are the way go, with ghost viking bf hellion support, ect.
The reason mech isn't viable for the pros is not because the max army is weak but because mech openings are extremely vulnerable. Pro players will study opponents before matches and can spot weaknesses in mech builds that they can abuse (they can use blink stalker, waprism timings ect). This is why pros dont use mech because they know they know they can suffer easy build order losses.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't. If you just ladder casually or play with friends: why cant you use mech? A maxed army of thors hellions and ghosts absolutely wrecks protoss in late game. If you can slowly build to this army and not die to timing attacks or harass builds then you should be in really good shape for the late game. In fact i usually take my third around the same time as bio builds and i feel much more confident taking 4ths or 5ths. Basically if the protoss doesn't harass you heavily or catch you offguard with an early all in, your pretty much going to roll his army(providing you macro and micro well ofcourse). Mech is crazy awesome in late game =D
This. I also prefer Thors for some Thor-based biomech. Marine/Thor/Banshee/Raven is a great composition, and Strike Cannons one-shot Colossi, Immortals, and Archons. Also the high DPS of Thors and Banshees is not nullified by Zealot Armor, so mass Chargelot compositions do get destroyed. PDD prevents Stalkers from being a threat for the most part, and Colossi can be dealt with via Banshees if they are kiting, but if they are not kiting the Strike Cannons will wipe them out. Thors also laugh at Storm.
In my opinion thors are not as useful late game because of feedback and immortals. If I built up thors early game aside from defense they would be for an early timing not for a late game push.
I think the marauder is just to effective against toss and mech doesn't have anything as good in comparison to make it completely viable. So I think the warhound in HotS might make this easier depending on cost/tier level etc.
I have found that bio-mech is better or at least easier to use than standard mech. Against Protoss I go Marauder/Banshee midgame and Maurader/Banshee/Battlecruiser late game.
Marauder/Banshee has very good battle synergy, you get the mobility of bio and most of the power of mech. Battlecruisers are mostly for tanking for the rest of your army and to yamoto high priority targets.
On February 20 2012 00:30 tom_baburger wrote: In my opinion thors are not as useful late game because of feedback and immortals. If I built up thors early game aside from defense they would be for an early timing not for a late game push.
Feedback isn't very good if you have ghosts out. You can either emp the thors which is pretty easy or emp the templar. Even if the feedbacks go off its not so bad cuz you have scvs repairing.
To your other point i heavily disagree. I find early timings with thors are not that strong cuz you havent reached critical mass yet. Thors are a late game investment and you want to mass them to build your deathball. The earliest i push with them is about 150 supply (around 13-15 min), but its actually stronger to max out and take more bases.
Mass immortals is the best response for the protoss but it is by no means a hard counter. The only time i lost to immortals is when the guy went 3 robo off 2 base and literally didn't make another unit. Even then if it was't for his concave i would have beat him i think.
Ghosts and ravens are used for EMP and seeker missile - these two moves do huge burst damage to late game Protoss death balls. Tanks clean up whatever's left, and thors tank it until the seeker missiles hit. It's really dependent on scanning the protoss army and sieging up in time, as well as getting EMPs and seeker missiles off before feedbacks hit. I've found, though, that with good EMPs and seeker missiles you can completely destroy a protoss army and be very cost-efficient.
Very interesting post. I too have become interested in using mech in TvP. However, I don't see how you can go pure mech out the door. A 4-gate will straight up demolish what you have here. Even a 3-gate should win, let alone a 3-gate 1-robo. How do you deal with those? I'm assuming you 2rax if you scout gateway pressure?
The two gas at 14 doesn't make any sense ... if you're going to wait until factory is finished, you should just gas at 13 (or even 12, before rax, for a factory as soon as rax completes) and put three guys on right away, and build the second gas while your factory is underway.
Avilo has a great video on why TvP mech is not considered viable:
He brings up many interesting facts about why Mech is generally a bad idea vs Toss. I really recommend that you guys watch at least a part of the video.
I'm going to try not to bash Avilo in this reply, he's far better than I am, he's done a lot more research then I have, and he could probably beat me 100 times out of 100 if we played.
BUT
I've watched his streams and listened to his rants and I really think he hasn't done much to explore mech fully. I watched a particular game on his stream about 2-3 days ago where he was blindly rolling out with his tanks (a mistake any meching Terran makes at least once a week ) and the Protoss caught him unsieged, blinked into the rolling tank line, and shortly made quick work of the tanks.
The next part was what killed me. Live, on his stream, his response was "See? This is why mech will never work vs. Toss."
He then proceeded to rant for about 20 minutes about how this perfectly illustrated how mech isn't even an option anymore.
Well, I have a lot of problems with this. 1.) He never scanned, scouted, or even attempted to know where the Protoss army was prior to unsieging and moving. 2.) He literally has only tanks. No ghosts, hellions, vikings, thors, nothing. Just a huge tank line. (Hello Void Ray)
Mech isn't what lost that, poor composition, bad intel (no idea where the army was), and a blind move are what caused that to fail. If that's how you want to play mech then I agree, you should give it up because that will never work.
Mech is hard in a different kind of way. That silly mistake of being caught rolling out is NO DIFFERENT then me walking a bio ball through a choke and getting stormed. One bad move and me not knowing where my opponent was, and all of a sudden my army is getting wrecked in the blink of an eye.
Anyone who says 'Mech doesn't work' is very short-sighted. Are you saying I can't sit back, make one unit, and A+move my opponent? Yes, then if that's your definition of mech you are correct: mech will never work.
However if I scout my opponent, know where his army is, and make the proper adjustments mech is just as viable and has some strengths that bio doesn't have.
Saying 'I built 30 tanks and couldn't win so it doesn't work' is along the lines of saying 'I made 100 marines and walked into their base and that didn't work.' Of course that didn't work. Where are the medivacs? Where are the marauders? Why no ghosts? You saw collosi, you need vikings with your bio ball.
Same goes for mech. You need hellions, you occasionally need thors. Vikings still need to counter collosus. Ghosts still need to snipe HTs and EMP Immortals. Ravens with PDD's can literally change the entire course of the battle as well. You can't mass one unit and expect to win the game no matter what unit you choose. It's the composition that you build that makes the difference, and mech needs support units too. Ravens and ghosts should be the medivacs of mech.
Mech isn't supposed to be the 'easier' way to play Terran. In some respects it's a lot harder (you need to plan how to cover yourself more when moving out since you're less mobile,, etc). But if people would devote time into the style I think you'll start to see more and more that it's very viable. A few months ago everyone said this style would never work. Now Jjakji, MKP, BeastyQT and a handful of other people are starting to mix in mech and all of a sudden the opinion is changing.
Mech can be viable before Heart of the Swarm, and we're starting to see that more and more each day.
I've been obsessing over Mech TvP the past week or so, so I'm just going to share all the things I've seen that seem to be 'truths' in a Mech V Protoss game, in chronological order. This is using the Mech TvP opening seen in The Day9 Daily #396 by VileIllusion/Lastshadow. So far, its the most optimized opening that can transition to Mech I've seen. It's really good at holding all-ins, and gives you a shot at doing some damage. Not amazingly economical though.
Okay so first, the single most important thing you can do, at any point in the game, is to force Stalkers. Stalkers are horrible against Mech (really, against Terran in general), and they cost 50 gas. Use banshees to force Stalkers. Use Hellions to force Stalkers (or just lol if they warp in Zealots), and in the late game use Battle Cruisers to force Stalkers. Now to the list:
1) Thors are better than Tanks early game. Thors don't need numbers to be strong, especially with Mass Repair. A lot of all ins can't out DPS mass repair. Tanks in small numbers simply don't pack enough punch against all-ins, and I don't have the production to get a meaningful number of them out. I can't (safely) expand AND get up the production for tanks to defend that expansion.
2) From Marine/Thor into Mech for the midgame. I transition from Marine and Thor production as soon as I know I'm safe from any 2 base timing/allin. This is around 3 Thors and 16 Marines - Banshees can scout and control the map just to make sure. Nothing is worse than switching around all your tech right when they move out. Tanks will help me take my third, and Hellions are great for harassing their third, so it makes a lot of sense to start their production at the same time.
3) Reacting to Protoss Tech: Against a Protoss getting Templar I've found you basically have to get Ghosts. Both Casters basically behave the same in Mech vs Protoss. They just deal outright damage with EMP or Feedback, but IMO Ghosts have the edge. First off, you can Snipe/EMP the Templar but you can also EMP your own units just in case you need to. I think this is a really good move when you are attacking and know you are about to have an engagement. I like to get 8-10 Ghosts and stop there. If they are going Colossus tech first, then I think adding a second Starport for more banshees is the answer. Stalker/Colossus is absolutely terrible in a straight up fight. Tanks do a ton of damage to both, and Colossus stand right over the Stalkers which is horrible with the splash damage.
Creating your maxed composition: This is the part where a lot of Mech vs P players generally go "Mech doesn't work vs Protoss". In my experience, pure Mech simply doesn't work against a Protoss who can get to a maxed army with 3/3 upgrades, and 20 some gateways. The problem isn't Colossus, Immortals, or HT, it's just how well mass gateway units with Charge and Blink can deal with a Mech army because of warp in. Sure, you can win the 200/200 fight, but then you might not do so well in the 150/180 fight. And then you are really dead in the next 100/150 fight. And because of warp in, you never even got the opportunity to do any real damage. So when you get your 5th and 6th gas, I think it's really important to add Battle Cruisers to force Stalkers. 3/3 Stalkers deal with Banshees too easily in too few numbers. After the 200/200 engagement, you will have lost a lot of Hellions, Banshees, and Thors. The main units that will be alive will be the units who were in the back: Siege Tanks and Ghosts. A ton of Chargelots usually do really good against what is remaining. With Battlecruisers, which will always be left over after a battle (Base 3 armor FTW) the Protoss has to warp in Stalkers.
So are perfect maxed Composition looks like this (against Gateway/Colossus/HT/Archon/Immortal armies): 8-12 Tanks (~30 supply) for Stalkers, Colossus, Immortals (after EMP). 4 Thors (24 supply), and 16 Hellions (32 supply) for Chargelots, General DPS, and to tank damage. Shots from Immortals or Stalkers on Hellions are wasted shots. 8 Ghosts for extremely obvious reasons (16 supply). And the rest of your supply should be in Battlecruisers, the more the merrier. You don't want any Banshees. They do basically half the DPS, and have nowhere near the staying power of Battlecruisers. IMO, there isn't a realistic Protoss composition that can even begin to touch this composition.
Upgrades: This is something I haven't figured out at all, I just sort of do what makes sense at the time. I have been going for the quick +1 Mech Armor with Marine/Thor. Then I throw down my second Armory as the +1 Armor finishes (and I'm switching to Tank/Hellion) and go for +1 Mech Attack and +1 Ship weapons if they wen't Colossus or +2 Mech Armor if they went Templar - because when going Templar the Protoss will often dump their excess minerals into Zealots and usually Charge because they have the tech. Mech armor is amazing against Zealots. After this I stick to upgrading Ship Weapons and Ship Armor.
I love to see players trying new things and being innovative and all, but there's a HUGE problem with this:
You always want to research vehicle weapons unless you scout an immortal bust then research vehicle armor (this is because thors gain more from armor against robo units then they do from weapons).
Uh, Immortals do 50 damage to armored units, and Thors have a base defense of 1. Getting an armor upgrade will reduce Immortal damage to 48 per shot. That's beyond pathetic. And if the Protoss player has Colossi? IMHO attack upgrades scale so much better in that you can kill Colossi faster (ideally) so they get less shots off because the armor, again, isn't going to reduce damage that much. What you should have said is that the armor upgrade is good if your opponent is going, say, mass zealot/chargelot because armor upgrades scale very well against zealots, or even gateway units in general. But again, this would only be beneficial if your Thors are "tanking" damage and not your hellions or marines or whatever else. And ideally you should be getting even a small number of ghosts late-game for the ever crucial EMP, especially if your opponent is going HT (which he probably should be if not mass Immortal). Just some food for thought.
On March 02 2012 00:09 Norseman wrote: I'm going to try not to bash Avilo in this reply, he's far better than I am, he's done a lot more research then I have, and he could probably beat me 100 times out of 100 if we played.
BUT
I've watched his streams and listened to his rants and I really think he hasn't done much to explore mech fully.
Sounds very interesting, can you link some replays? And what league is this btw?
I've been trying a similar playstyle lately, I think battlecruisers can be a very good adittion in TvP. Instead of tanks im favoring a more air focused army with marines and thors. For the opening i used mvp's 2base tank push (basically 1rax fe into fac and 2 reactored rax, push with 2-3 tanks). Wich can deal huge damage to the Protoss (but also fail miserably :/). Usually you can contain them for a while so i can get a 3rd and 2 starports up.
Havent really played this enough and against adequate competent protosses to evaluate its viability though.
EPT
) and the Protoss caught him unsieged, blinked into the rolling tank line, and shortly made quick work of the tanks.
