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How to Mech in TvP [D][G]

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-04 03:49:10
February 12 2012 21:35 GMT
#1
Although there has been a ton of ideas about how to mech in TvP recently; I hope that my ideas will help people who have been struggling in the matchup. This is my first thread on tl so I would appreciate some feedback on the thread.

Introduction:
+ Show Spoiler +
My ID is tombaburger, I am a diamond player but I have been playing all three races. Lately I have been exploring Mech in the TvP matchup.


Bio vs Mech:
+ Show Spoiler +
The reason that I have switched to mech is because bio is so volatile in the final battles. Bio is volatile because almost every protoss aoe unit can kill a terran army in a matter of seconds. To me it almost feels like you have to play the late game perfectly to win. Please let it be noted that this isn't a cry for balance but just the observations that I have concluded about based on my games.

The Opening:
As soon as I started playing mech it became apparent that I couldn't just start building tanks from the start of the game. The early game is too weak if you do that because the terran early game almost relies solely on marines. After a while I discovered an opening that is relatively safe.
+ Show Spoiler +
12 Barracks
14 Refinery x2 (leave 1 in gas for each refinery)
Reactor at 50 gas (should be when 1st marine is done)
Put 1 more scv in each refinery (should be 2 in each now)
Factory at 100 gas
Command Center at 400 minerals
When factory is done: Switch factory and Barracks, put 1 more in each gas, build a starport and tech lab.
Switch starport to tech lab and start making ravens
Build factories as can be afforded and build armory when you move the orbital down.
Build 2 thors then start tank production


Mid Game:
+ Show Spoiler +
The reason behind rushing to thors is because thors can withstand almost every rush with their mass repair capability. I have found that two thors and maybe a bunker is sufficient for defense. After you have two thors created you want to start making tanks and hellions with the layout 2 tech lab facts, 1 reactor fact, 1 tech lab starport. You always want to research vehicle weapons unless you scout a non-robo army then research vehicle armor (this is because thors gain more from armor against non-robo units then they do from weapons). Take a 3rd when either: after their push failed or when you feel safe with a sufficient number of tanks. Once you take a 3rd add another starport/reactor and two more factories. Start making viking banshee out of the starports.


Late Game:
+ Show Spoiler +
A late game hellion/tank/raven/banshee/viking army can beat almost any protoss "deathball" that they can make. The goal is once you are maxed you need to start suiciding hellions into their main to kill workers/free up supply. Replace the lost supply in more tanks or banshees/vikings. Normally I just wait for the protoss to attack while slowly expanding and adding on factories.


Unit Movements:
+ Show Spoiler +
Contrary to what you might think, it is not good to keep a nice arch with your tanks like you might do in TvT or TvZ. I have found that it is more effective to siege them in compact areas because since protoss units tend to have more health, they can break through a spread out tank line easily. Continuously harass with hellions via medivac drop or drive by's. This will keep the protoss on their toes and hopefully kill a ton of workers. In the final battle, lay down point defense drones with your ravens and target colossi with banshee/viking (again keep siege tanks compact).


Weaknesses:
+ Show Spoiler +
The builds that I have had trouble with so far are warp prism all ins and blink stalker all ins. The reason these builds counter mech is that they are very mobile all ins and to defend early as mech you are centered around your ramp with a bunker. I have yet to find out how to stop these but luckily for me they are relatively uncommon all ins.


Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. http://www.2shared.com/file/oZlb-Rx_/Metalopolis__2_.html
2. http://www.2shared.com/file/cbNyYIDS/The_Shattered_Temple__2_.html
3. http://www.2shared.com/file/_XLKEIqN/TvP_mech_1.html
4. http://www.2shared.com/file/hq0egMyH/TvP_mech_2.html
5. http://www.2shared.com/file/m_F0bDeq/TvP_mech_3__L_.html
6. http://www.2shared.com/file/GV7L43W9/TvP_mech_late_game.html
7.http://www.2shared.com/file/fmKMs8qe/Taldarim_Altar_LE__4_.html
Games 1 and 2 were recent attempts at meching in TvP while games 3-5 were earlier attempts. Game 6 is an example of late game TvP. Game 7, I dont know what happened.. Just check it out. I hope you enjoy!


Conclusion:

+ Show Spoiler +
Thank you for reading my 1st team liquid thread and please give me feedback/questions in the comments section of the tread.


Edit:
+ Show Spoiler +

In the comments people tend to be asking three legitimate questions. Those are:
1. How do you deal with harassment attempts? Blink stalkers can easily be shut down by building your production in a tucked away area and keeping a small amount of tanks at each expansion.
2. How do you deal with reverse all ins when you go to attack? This question has a lot to do with number 3 because to stop these all ins you need to attack directly after they engage with you. If they don't engage with you just build up command centers and suicide scvs to free up space. Terran has mules use them.
3. When do you attack? You should constantly be harassing with hellions throughout the entire game because it doesn't matter how many bases a protoss has, if you can keep their workers to a minimum. Like I said in number two you should not attack until they have lost a substantial amount of army because they will win a base race most of the time. Mech is good in large numbers when tanks can splash their whole army; don't try to attack at 120 supply because it will just get demolished.

Please only post that mech doesn't work if you have evidence of this and you have actually tried using it. I cannot stress this enough.

please leave more comments if these questions are not yours but specifically direct them to me please.


P.S. There have been alot of comments about using ghosts and other units in the build so I thought I might as well add this in. Obviously get the appropriate unit if they are massing something ridiculous such as archons/high templar but ghosts are not necessarily needed in the build. They are probably helpful in almost every battle but I tried to keep this build down to the basics and its kind of akward with the transition time for ghosts (I never really understood when to switch to ghost production). Besides that great discussions I'm sorry that I haven't been able to answer all questions if you have any questions directly to me please feel free to pm me.
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
February 12 2012 21:41 GMT
#2
This needs at the very least one replay.

Other wise, good job! Not enough to convince me to mech in TvP as Bio is still very strong, but still a good guide.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
PrimeToss
Profile Joined February 2012
Finland1 Post
February 12 2012 21:42 GMT
#3
I personally don't play Terran but I play Toss and I rarely play versus Mech but when it comes around it can be hard to deal with, and I'd love to see Mech become more popular versus Protoss, nice to see someone doing it.
"I kill you"
tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
February 12 2012 21:45 GMT
#4
@Fencer710 -- Ok I'll be sure to add replays soon enough. Thanks for the feedback.
tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
February 12 2012 22:02 GMT
#5
Ok i uploaded the reps enjoy!
stormtvdotnet
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark4 Posts
February 12 2012 22:26 GMT
#6
Do you have any late game TvP replays doing that build? And could you post some where you lose? And if you don't mind me asking, what league are you in? (This is not a troll...)
tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
February 12 2012 22:41 GMT
#7
I'll try to upload some... diamond like i said in the intro
tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
February 12 2012 23:04 GMT
#8
Ok I uploaded a 30 minute long TvP where our deathball's clashed and I crushed.
RedMosquito
Profile Joined September 2010
United States280 Posts
February 12 2012 23:23 GMT
#9
Ive been meching in tvp for a while now and i think mass thor is better then heavy tank. I usually go mass thor with bf hellions, vikings if i need it, and ghosts. Later on i include tanks but thats not until i have ten + thors. The reason i dont like tanks is because of charglotz and collosus. Even tho you have hellions, mass chargelot can still ruin your day. You have to micro your hellions well which means you wont be able to target fire with your tanks. Thors are just more sturdy and more mobile. Also this build would be more optimal if you take all scvs off gas at 50 and then build your cc right when you reach 400 minerals. I believe it times out so that you dont have to build a third depot and it gives you a better economy.
tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
February 12 2012 23:26 GMT
#10
My problem with mass thors is that feedback absolutely rips apart thors plus unless you want to invest in ghosts to emp your own thors then they are automatically going to have >half health before the battle. Also nothing can compare to the dps of mass tanks. Thanks for the input on the build I'll try that out.
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
February 12 2012 23:36 GMT
#11
Mech is cool against Protoss but I still feel that feedback and immortals make it a suboptimal strategy to bio. In addition, I fear that the lack of mobility of the mech ball can be abused by Protoss, either by mass expanding, or multipronged harass.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
MetalGear
Profile Joined February 2012
Australia47 Posts
February 12 2012 23:41 GMT
#12
Just wondering why you don't include ghosts into the mech army?
DYEAlabaster
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada1009 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-12 23:43:00
February 12 2012 23:42 GMT
#13
I play mech all the time in TvP, and I feel that a weakness of meching is if the toss goes mass air. Once they have carrier/mothership/voidray, meching becomes incredibly hard to pull off, because the supply cost of your army doesn't allow for enough vikings.

Edit: How would you acclimate to that in your style?

Also, great guide :D
tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
February 12 2012 23:49 GMT
#14
To answer the questions/concerns of you guys: I don't use ghosts in my mech army mainly because it requires barracks and I haven't seen the need of it yet. I'm sure there could be a build that uses ghost mech in TvP but I think that is a more TvZ build and this build is supposed to be pure mech. To address the concern of mass expanding/harass normally for each bass you have you should have at least 10 siege tanks. 10 tanks should be enough to shut down any harass as long as you keep tabs on their main army. If they mass expand just harass with hellions in more places. It doesnt matter if they have 6 bases if they only have 40 probes. I haven't actually played against mass air but what I would probably do is immediately build 3-4 starports upon scouting and change from tank to thor production.
xNomax
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada24 Posts
February 13 2012 00:09 GMT
#15
Problem with going against air is that the thor isn't particularly good against anything that comes out of a stargate aside from phoenix, which you'll rarely see. Carriers are going to be tough as nails to take down even with thor/viking. To beat the protoss air game I think BC's are in order.

May sound ridiculous, but a good transition from mech to go against toss air could be bc/viking/raven/ghost. Very gas intensive, but if it does go late game, your army should be very cost efficient against his and you should come out on top half map scenario.
RedMosquito
Profile Joined September 2010
United States280 Posts
February 13 2012 00:15 GMT
#16
On February 13 2012 08:49 tom_baburger wrote:
To answer the questions/concerns of you guys: I don't use ghosts in my mech army mainly because it requires barracks and I haven't seen the need of it yet. I'm sure there could be a build that uses ghost mech in TvP but I think that is a more TvZ build and this build is supposed to be pure mech. To address the concern of mass expanding/harass normally for each bass you have you should have at least 10 siege tanks. 10 tanks should be enough to shut down any harass as long as you keep tabs on their main army. If they mass expand just harass with hellions in more places. It doesnt matter if they have 6 bases if they only have 40 probes. I haven't actually played against mass air but what I would probably do is immediately build 3-4 starports upon scouting and change from tank to thor production.


You definitely want ghosts in your mech army. Just a suggestion. Theyre pretty gas light and you only need 1 or 2 to make a huge difference in a battle
tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
February 13 2012 00:16 GMT
#17
You definitely want ghosts in your mech army. Just a suggestion. Theyre pretty gas light and you only need 1 or 2 to make a huge difference in a battle


Thanks for the input if I have time then I will try to incorporate ghosts in my build and add it to the post.
crocodile
Profile Joined February 2011
United States615 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-21 19:03:41
February 13 2012 00:17 GMT
#18
Deleted, NVM
Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny
tom_baburger
Profile Joined September 2011
United States23 Posts
February 13 2012 00:29 GMT
#19
Thank you for the input crocidile; I would like to start off by saying that this situation is hard to deal with as mech but not impossible. The reason I could not find a way to stop warp prism/blink stalker all ins is because they come before you can even get a thor out. I have seen the trimaster game and in my opinion he didn't not do a very good job dealing with the blink stalker harass. On shakuras you should always expand to the 3rd closer to the xel'naga tower because it is easier to defend with siege tanks. Like I said in the guide you shouldn't move down for a 3rd until you have enough tanks to defend each location. If you keep your buildings close together then the stalkers shouldn't be able to do much damage and any number above 4 siege tanks will rip apart any amount of stalkers. As for the ghost situation I am thinking of either getting ghosts or building another starport/tech lab late game because it seems as if I always have excess gas.
rgTheSchworz
Profile Joined November 2010
Romania425 Posts
February 13 2012 00:32 GMT
#20
You´re talking trash.
Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.

Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad.
You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing.
Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all.
You can t harass else you get picked apart.

Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.

If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you.
MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws:
Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields.
Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army.
Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
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