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On February 14 2012 07:31 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:39 tom_baburger wrote:
I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input! With respect, but the replays you posted in the OP do not show Mech works versus Protoss. I watched the 1st replay, the 2nd and the 6th. I'll explain what won the game in those three games, and im sorry to say it has very little to do with mech. 1. You were 80 food ahead, when you are 80 food ahead it doesn't matter what kind of army you use, you win anyway. Also, the protoss had a very bad army composition to face a Mech army. It was mostly stalkers with no blink. 2. Around 7 minutes you move into the Protoss base with some hellions, at that point the Protoss had build 0 combat unit, he had 26 probes and thats it. You could have ran in 5 marines and won the game right there, even earlier. 6. This one is more complicated, but in the end it comes down to some good hellion runs killing a lot of probes and more importantly: The protoss was way behind on upgrades and moved into a 20+ siege tank line on the high ground. There is no ground army in the game that can efficiently beat 20+ upgraded siege tanks in a choke, especially when the siege tanks have weapons upgrade at 3. Protoss could have expanded all over the map, blink up in the main on the side of the base, harass with warp prism. Moving an inferior army into a siege line of death doesn't necessarily mean Mech works. I don't mean to be rude, because if there's anyone that wants to see mech work its me and i applaud your effort to make it work. But, i have never really seen a VOD or replay that proves mech works vs Protoss. A replay/VOD where Terran goes mech and the Protoss responds correctly by getting the right unit composition and exploiting the weaknesses of mech and: terran still wins. Most of the VOD that cover a mech vs Protoss are decided by either Hellions melting a lot of probes or cloak banshee's killing a lot of probes. The Mech that comes after is just a formality, the game was already won anyway.
Before I start, Thank you for actually watching the games that I posted; because some people posting see the title and argue that it doesn't work. Next I would like to state that this isn't stating officially that mech should take over bio and that mech is the best strategy. I have just found a way that works for me, in diamond league, not masters and I wanted to share that with team liquid. The next point is that mech DOES rely on harassing with hellions; that is one of the advantages of playing mech. To be truthful I don't think I have had a game yet where hellion harass has not done damage. This may be because I am only in diamond league or it may be because nobody can defend every relentless attempt to harass with hellions. Maybe mech is not as good in the final battle as I think it is but its quite hard to break down the battle as rock, paper, scissors as some people are doing. All I see is that I am consistently winning TvP's; something that I never was able to do with bio.
P.S: If I do find a game that I do not get in and do tons of damage with hellions then I will be sure to post it (win or loss); assuming its not cheese or very early game wins.
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On February 14 2012 07:11 rgTheSchworz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 14:17 crocodile wrote:On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote:
You´re talking trash.
Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad.
You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing.
Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all.
You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you.
MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws:
Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields.
Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army.
Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
I can't actually argue with you because from your points, it's clear you've never actually used biomech. You've got the mindset that Day9 always talks about in that it's incredibly unproductive and ignorant: X counters Y, so I can't do Y! If you want, I can post dozens of replays of me winning TvP with both Thor and Tank-based Biomech and winning almost every time. TvP is my strongest matchup right now because I play it that way. Everything you've said about biomech is incorrect because you clearly haven't used it before. You're always behind in upgrades even when going bio, so saying your bio is behind with biomech is absolutely pointless. It's a fact of TvP. You can afford upgrades from 1 Ebay 1 Armory for attack on both bio and vehicles. This is sufficient for dealing with Protoss all game with this comp. Also, it's clear you've never used Mech either, or at least faced a good Protoss with it, because I guarantee you a production cycle of tanks and a group of Hellions out of position will not only fail to deal with Blink Stalkers, you will be out of position when the Protoss charges your line with Chargelot/Colossus. If this hasn't happened to you, you're not playing good Protosses. You re talking trash again. 1/0 and 1/0 on bio and mech is basically 1/0 on a bio or Pure Mech army. For that cash and time you can get 1/1 on either of the 2 and use only 1 of it. Both of which are viable. A production cycle of tanks while on 2 base is 2 tanks. Assuming a decent blink or warp-in of 10 stalkers, 2 tanks+ whatever hellions pop+ whatever hellions you retreat can deal with it provided you use REPAIR.Zeals, Dt s are kited. And no, buddy, i dont pull all my hellions off my push.You think I m crazy? I m not leaving naked tanks near a Pylon. Ever. Just make sure that while you defend the warp/blink you Actually either retreat your tanks, or threaten his probe line. Stalkers and Collosi are the only units that kill hellions fast enough to make harass unviable.Even then it´s possible to do damage, Assuming you get +1 mech attack.This upgrade rocks.
First of all:
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/363d47/
Second of all, 2 Tanks with Hellions is never going to beat 10 Blink Stalkers. I don't care how you think that will play out, it just will never happen. It's clear you've never played Mech against any halfway decent Protosses. What league are you in?
You actually haven't even specified how you'd hold off this harass WITHOUT pulling crucial units out of position, at one point you said you'd never pull back hellions; you'd retreat tanks, but unsupported unsieged tanks will not beat a squad of stalkers OR warped in zealots. If you pull enough of them that they WILL defeat this group of units, the Protoss can run the main portion of his army with Colossi, Immortals, and Zealots in to your front and take advantage of a good portion of your army being out of position.
Also keep in mind that 'dealing with' the harass doesn't even mean you've killed the units, and often the Protoss can almost always bring his units around to join his main army before you've gotten your units back into position.
Give me some replays of you holding off good harass by a Protoss, and I will believe you, otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on.
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you can't have a mech tvp guide without some GoOdy reps
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People posting please address if you have a question, comment, or concern for me, or if you are just debating with somebody else in the thread. To address your concern huyNh, when I checked for GoOdy reps around a month ago he was not meching. Maybe he was just doing something wierd the games I saw but every single TvP he was going bio, and sub-par bio at that. I am sorry I couldn't provide any pro level reps I will certainly look for some to add.
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y not just use a sensor tower to deal with mid/late game blink stalkers + "flash amount of missile turrets"? also having missle turrets with hi sec tracking and a patroling viking on the edge of the main makes it impossible to blink into a main, by the time an observer has vision of the main its already dead.
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On February 14 2012 09:35 tom_baburger wrote:
People posting please address if you have a question, comment, or concern for me, or if you are just debating with somebody else in the thread. To address your concern huyNh, when I checked for GoOdy reps around a month ago he was not meching. Maybe he was just doing something wierd the games I saw but every single TvP he was going bio, and sub-par bio at that. I am sorry I couldn't provide any pro level reps I will certainly look for some to add.
Goody had stop using mech I think few months ago when he said it wasn't viable against protoss (that in it self says more than enough that mech is not really viable against protoss), so now he does bio like most of the terrans do.
I do believe he still goes mech against zerg though.
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Thanks for taking the time to write up this guide. I used to mech when I was active but got beaten alot -_- So this is pretty much theorycraft based on more modern developments in the game.
I like your opening but personally I feel like early closked banshees is the best option. They force your opponent to go Robo which is nice because you're forcing your opponent to react to you. Also no units built form the robo can shoot up so that tech path doesn't even add value to your opponents early game army. And get like 4-5 Banshees, a Raven and a couple of vikings for Obs sniping. Your air force will be able to respond to any sneaky Protoss shenanagins all game long.
As for unit composition I like ALOT of Hellions backed up with tanks. Thors are okay but for every one you get is two less tanks! Get Ghosts when you take a third, you'll have the excess minerals you need to afford them. It's okay to cut a round of production from your factory to make a few ghosts.
Basically I feel straight Mech isn't viable in TvP but as in TvT with appropriate support units to make up for the deficiancies of Tanks (Airforce for Mobility, Ghosts for Immortal and Archon spam, make more Hellions against Zealot heavy play) then the playstyle is sutiable on most maps. (Look for maps where the third is reasonably close and defensable.)
Edit: This play style also opens up the option of transitioning into Cattlebruisers. Get upgrades sooner rather than later. Sim City around expansions, supply depots and even defensive Pforts.
Probe kills are how to equalise the match up and apply pressure on the opponent forcing them to react and not just spam Chrono on their nexi.
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On February 14 2012 07:31 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:39 tom_baburger wrote:
I also invite everyone who is already saying that mech doesn't work vs protoss to try it out. If you have already tried my build or another build out and it doesn't work please provide supporting evidence with a replay to support your claim. Otherwise don't post that mech doesn't work unless you have a video/replay of why it doesn't. Most players have a fatal flaw in their strategy that makes it doesn't work. Thanks for all the great input! With respect, but the replays you posted in the OP do not show Mech works versus Protoss. I watched the 1st replay, the 2nd and the 6th. I'll explain what won the game in those three games, and im sorry to say it has very little to do with mech. 1. You were 80 food ahead, when you are 80 food ahead it doesn't matter what kind of army you use, you win anyway. Also, the protoss had a very bad army composition to face a Mech army. It was mostly stalkers with no blink. 2. Around 7 minutes you move into the Protoss base with some hellions, at that point the Protoss had build 0 combat unit, he had 26 probes and thats it. You could have ran in 5 marines and won the game right there, even earlier. 6. This one is more complicated, but in the end it comes down to some good hellion runs killing a lot of probes and more importantly: The protoss was way behind on upgrades and moved into a 20+ siege tank line on the high ground. There is no ground army in the game that can efficiently beat 20+ upgraded siege tanks in a choke, especially when the siege tanks have weapons upgrade at 3. Protoss could have expanded all over the map, blink up in the main on the side of the base, harass with warp prism. Moving an inferior army into a siege line of death doesn't necessarily mean Mech works. I don't mean to be rude, because if there's anyone that wants to see mech work its me and i applaud your effort to make it work. But, i have never really seen a VOD or replay that proves mech works vs Protoss. A replay/VOD where Terran goes mech and the Protoss responds correctly by getting the right unit composition and exploiting the weaknesses of mech and: terran still wins. Most of the VOD that cover a mech vs Protoss are decided by either Hellions melting a lot of probes or cloak banshee's killing a lot of probes. The Mech that comes after is just a formality, the game was already won anyway.
I saw the sixth replay because he specified that one went to the lategame, and I have to agree that he only won due to hellion runbys and extremely favorable engagements. Despite both of those, he narrowly won against an opponent who reacted and played terribly. To be honest, I would have guessed that you guys were in Gold/Plat if you hadn't said you were in diamond and sc2gears didn't confirm this. I am going to try mech, but I don't expect it to go too well if my harass is denied and my opponent macros as well as I do.
By the way OP, try tank hopping xD.
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I'm not sure what this will add to the conversation or if this will work at GSL level of play but from my own experience in trying mech based off of what I viewed in Illusion's streams seems to come down to it being POSSIBLE pre-GM on certain maps that allow for a nice siege tank line that can spread across 3 bases.... For example, antiga is probably the most perfect example of this. Tanks starting on high ground in main in a straight line that will protect your rocks on third. It appears that you need a map that allows you to grab a 3rd ASAP for the extra gas so you can upgrade/max in a very timely manner and it seems that you can only stretch out your early/midgame mech army to protect 3 bases on certain maps.
Of course the name of the game of mech in ANY matchup is turtle with hellion or banshee harass and then move out at max pop for the death push. Imo, the real variables in this conversation come down to harassment options. A protoss who can also expand a quick 3rd (possibly a quicker fourth than you as well) without taking any economic damage can be able to support themselves enough to trade TWICE with you before you reach their base. I'm sorry, but in the entire knowledge bank of my brain the second full pop trade takes all momentum away from the 3 base (because it's SOO hard to expand to 4th in a timely fashion) and usually turns the game into a loss. If you harass well enough that he can only trade 1 time with full pop and the second time when you are knocking on his door is some scrambled army you will probably win.
Based on those observations and experiences I view mech as a funny kind of 3 base all-in  It's strange to think of a 3 base all-in but it makes sense when you lay it out. You are turning all gas into an incredible deathball while throwing away tons of minerals into hellion economic harasses carefully managing the 3 bases worth of minerals when sacrificing hellions. Of course you can use banshees early game for harass but you want to full pop with max gas units as soon as possible so switching into pure hellion harass is optimum. When you're bases are running lower on minerals, you've made numerous hellion sacrifices, and you probably have enough resources left on your bases to remax 1 time you begin the death push with the most perfect unit composition you can muster
In my experience when my harass gets shut down i lose, however, it is nearly impossible to seal EVERY whole against hellion drops (zealots/stalker warp-ins don't stop half the probes from still getting roasted!) and my losses generally came down to my own mistakes in poor decision making on executing multi-pronged harasses. Before I forget to mention it, your openings to fight off the variations of toss early pressures/all-ins are up to you and can be tricky but this is the same for going bio as well. All my comments are in the assumption that all cheesy early game antics are successfully held off by both sides.
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So I have been practicing mech against toss on and off ever since day9 did his tvp mech daily and here are a few notes I have picked up from watching vileIllusion, BeastyQT, and Jjakji, and day9 tvp mech daily.
+ Show Spoiler [opening] +
It is usually safer to do a 1-1-1 before going full mech be it a 1-1-1 into expand or gasless expo → 1-1-1.
•This is not the all in 1-1-1 you can go cloaked banshee with a reactored rax -> expo while not getting tanks or thors until you plant the cc down.
•The reactored barracks is very important it helps you hold certain all ins and makes dealing with stargate play easier(still hard but manageable)
•Going for cloaked banshee with a reactored rax is the safest opening as you can punish the protoss if they get to greedy or all in without an obs.
•It is also very helpful to get a raven when going mech going 1-1-1 easily allows you to do it.
+ Show Spoiler [army composition] +
1. Thors seem to be better than tanks in the early/early mid game because...
•they are very beefy and will not die easily to gateway armies
•if the toss gets greedy you can easily kill him as force fields are inefective
•they are not very mobile but they are still more mobile than tanks and getting caught out of position will not straight up kill you
2. If you do get thors the armor upgrade is a lot better
•armor makes thors last even longer against gateway units because zealots and stalkers do two hits for their damage this •adds to the longevity of your army and getting loosing less units will help you get a faster max.
3. Banshees are really good to mix into your army because...
•they force stalkers which are bad against mech
•if you kill their stalkers you have free reign against the zealots+whatever(except archons)
•they do insane damage
•allow you to respond to drops easier(still hard though)
4. You NEED ghosts, if you dont have enough gas budget your production so that you do...
•ghosts are good get them
•no really they get rid of shields and deal with immortals, archons, and high templars
+ Show Spoiler [How to deal with mobile toss army...] +•get sensor towers they are very good at spotting incoming stuff you can kill warp prism with vikings before they get to warp in or get your army into position if they are moving blink stalkers in
•get turrets up in key positions
•getting terran building armor and turret/pf range is good lateish game
•if you decide to go hellions then warp prism harass if easier to deal with just pull back the hellions/and or banshees. If they warped in zealots free units, if stalkers try to move more units or wait for reinforcements from your factories
+ Show Spoiler [Some Transitions taken from day9 daily…] +when you get your third begin ghost production
@3rd start making more tanks
@3rd scout to see his composition and adjust accordingly
@3rd begin making hellions if that's the way you want to go*
My personal thoughts...
I feel like sticking to marines and banshees instead of hellions and tanks is a better composition. They allow you to more mobile while still dealing a similar amount of damage and relies a little less on killing your opponents economy. The tradeoff being that this composition does not control space as well as the tanks would.
Here are some matches where it was done at a pro level..
Illusion (need to look through them some are not mech but bio)
+ Show Spoiler [BeastyQT vs Classic.Prime in IPTL] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ3lfw8qNao
Jjakji vs Puzzle GSL Nov Ro8
Viable but still needs work...
I think mech is definitely viable at lower levels and especially on ladder since you get more of an element of surprise and the toss will not always deal with it correctly.
Currently mech is viable as a once in a while in a BoX series at a pro level
Eventually as mech gets more and more discovered and researched it might become mainstream but still needs more work.
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On February 14 2012 17:19 Inty wrote:So I have been practicing mech against toss on and off ever since day9 did his tvp mech daily and here are a few notes I have picked up from watching vileIllusion, BeastyQT, and Jjakji, and day9 tvp mech daily. + Show Spoiler [opening] +
It is usually safer to do a 1-1-1 before going full mech be it a 1-1-1 into expand or gasless expo → 1-1-1.
•This is not the all in 1-1-1 you can go cloaked banshee with a reactored rax -> expo while not getting tanks or thors until you plant the cc down.
•The reactored barracks is very important it helps you hold certain all ins and makes dealing with stargate play easier(still hard but manageable)
•Going for cloaked banshee with a reactored rax is the safest opening as you can punish the protoss if they get to greedy or all in without an obs.
•It is also very helpful to get a raven when going mech going 1-1-1 easily allows you to do it.
1. Thors seem to be better than tanks in the early/early mid game because...
•they are very beefy and will not die easily to gateway armies
•if the toss gets greedy you can easily kill him as force fields are inefective
•they are not very mobile but they are still more mobile than tanks and getting caught out of position will not straight up kill you
2. If you do get thors the armor upgrade is a lot better
•armor makes thors last even longer against gateway units because zealots and stalkers do two hits for their damage this •adds to the longevity of your army and getting loosing less units will help you get a faster max.
3. Banshees are really good to mix into your army because...
•they force stalkers which are bad against mech
•if you kill their stalkers you have free reign against the zealots+whatever(except archons)
•they do insane damage
•allow you to respond to drops easier(still hard though)
4. You NEED ghosts, if you dont have enough gas budget your production so that you do...
•ghosts are good get them
•no really they get rid of shields and deal with immortals, archons, and high templars
•get sensor towers they are very good at spotting incoming stuff you can kill warp prism with vikings before they get to warp in or get your army into position if they are moving blink stalkers in
•get turrets up in key positions
•getting terran building armor and turret/pf range is good lateish game
•if you decide to go hellions then warp prism harass if easier to deal with just pull back the hellions/and or banshees. If they warped in zealots free units, if stalkers try to move more units or wait for reinforcements from your factories
when you get your third begin ghost production
@3rd start making more tanks
@3rd scout to see his composition and adjust accordingly
@3rd begin making hellions if that's the way you want to go* My personal thoughts... I feel like sticking to marines and banshees instead of hellions and tanks is a better composition. They allow you to more mobile while still dealing a similar amount of damage and relies a little less on killing your opponents economy. The tradeoff being that this composition does not control space as well as the tanks would. Here are some matches where it was done at a pro level.. Illusion (need to look through them some are not mech but bio) + Show Spoiler [BeastyQT vs Classic.Prime in IPTL] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ3lfw8qNao Viable but still needs work... I think mech is definitely viable at lower levels and especially on ladder since you get more of an element of surprise and the toss will not always deal with it correctly. Currently mech is viable as a once in a while in a BoX series at a pro level Eventually as mech gets more and more discovered and researched it might become mainstream but still needs more work.
One of best posts I've seen in a while. Really helpful, thanks..
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Will it help dealing with Protoss harass if you put a ton of turret everywhere and have sensor towers that can cover entire map? I think mass turret can shut down warp prism play. It may costs a lot of mineral but mech is much less mineral intensive than bio.
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On February 14 2012 08:59 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:11 rgTheSchworz wrote:On February 13 2012 14:17 crocodile wrote:On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote:
You´re talking trash.
Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad.
You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing.
Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all.
You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you.
MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws:
Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields.
Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army.
Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
I can't actually argue with you because from your points, it's clear you've never actually used biomech. You've got the mindset that Day9 always talks about in that it's incredibly unproductive and ignorant: X counters Y, so I can't do Y! If you want, I can post dozens of replays of me winning TvP with both Thor and Tank-based Biomech and winning almost every time. TvP is my strongest matchup right now because I play it that way. Everything you've said about biomech is incorrect because you clearly haven't used it before. You're always behind in upgrades even when going bio, so saying your bio is behind with biomech is absolutely pointless. It's a fact of TvP. You can afford upgrades from 1 Ebay 1 Armory for attack on both bio and vehicles. This is sufficient for dealing with Protoss all game with this comp. Also, it's clear you've never used Mech either, or at least faced a good Protoss with it, because I guarantee you a production cycle of tanks and a group of Hellions out of position will not only fail to deal with Blink Stalkers, you will be out of position when the Protoss charges your line with Chargelot/Colossus. If this hasn't happened to you, you're not playing good Protosses. You re talking trash again. 1/0 and 1/0 on bio and mech is basically 1/0 on a bio or Pure Mech army. For that cash and time you can get 1/1 on either of the 2 and use only 1 of it. Both of which are viable. A production cycle of tanks while on 2 base is 2 tanks. Assuming a decent blink or warp-in of 10 stalkers, 2 tanks+ whatever hellions pop+ whatever hellions you retreat can deal with it provided you use REPAIR.Zeals, Dt s are kited. And no, buddy, i dont pull all my hellions off my push.You think I m crazy? I m not leaving naked tanks near a Pylon. Ever. Just make sure that while you defend the warp/blink you Actually either retreat your tanks, or threaten his probe line. Stalkers and Collosi are the only units that kill hellions fast enough to make harass unviable.Even then it´s possible to do damage, Assuming you get +1 mech attack.This upgrade rocks. First of all: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/363d47/Second of all, 2 Tanks with Hellions is never going to beat 10 Blink Stalkers. I don't care how you think that will play out, it just will never happen. It's clear you've never played Mech against any halfway decent Protosses. What league are you in? You actually haven't even specified how you'd hold off this harass WITHOUT pulling crucial units out of position, at one point you said you'd never pull back hellions; you'd retreat tanks, but unsupported unsieged tanks will not beat a squad of stalkers OR warped in zealots. If you pull enough of them that they WILL defeat this group of units, the Protoss can run the main portion of his army with Colossi, Immortals, and Zealots in to your front and take advantage of a good portion of your army being out of position. Also keep in mind that 'dealing with' the harass doesn't even mean you've killed the units, and often the Protoss can almost always bring his units around to join his main army before you've gotten your units back into position. Give me some replays of you holding off good harass by a Protoss, and I will believe you, otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on.
I specifically said I dont pull ALL my hellions back.
FYI 12 hellions with surround DO beat 8 stalkers.
About equal cost, arent they?. 2 tanks+4hellions- thats a prod cycle on 2 base.
Unsieged a tank comes at 0/0 equal to a stalker and a half or perhaps a bit more.
With scv repair/attack youre fine.
If I get to siege those 2 tanks without taking a shot, I m fine.
+ attack tanks only makes it better.
Also, Since stalkers are trash, if they go for a biig blink while you´re midmap, go attack the other half of his army and base-trade.WITHOUT sieging. Im sure you know how to soft push if you ve played some sort of mech.
Base trading a T is never a good idea with stalkers.
Reason: Puny DPS.
Hellions can hunt probes trying to set up hidden bases.
Tank hellion, once it passes 2/1 upgrades, can smash Blinkers unsieged, provided toss is 2/2 or lower
You have to know that, right?
It s simply that stalkers upgrade in increments of +1, while tanks do it with +3.
Plus, no shield upgrades hurt stalkers.
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And if you go Thors first, you cant do 2 things:
1.Attack.
If toss gets greedy, the slowness of your thors will hamper you sooo much.
If you bring scvs to all in, toss sacs his 3rd-only 400 minerals gone, which you wont have mined by pulling scvs off.
2.Upgrade +1 attack
For you to play mech decently in TvP you need attack upgrades.
Fast. +1 makes you 2 shot probes, +1 makes your tanks rock,
+1 hellions get 9 damage through all shields, not 8.
The attack upgrades will enable you to build less anti-air.
Voids rock vs thors.
2/2 thors vs 0/0 voids with 3-5 vikings?
Not so sweet for the protoss.Vikings can kite indefinitely and do survive to do damage in this case.
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And if you go Thors first, you cant do 2 things:
1.Attack.
If toss gets greedy, the slowness of your thors will hamper you sooo much.
If you bring scvs to all in, toss sacs his 3rd-only 400 minerals gone, which you wont have mined by pulling scvs off.
2.Upgrade +1 attack
For you to play mech decently in TvP you need attack upgrades.
Fast. +1 makes you 2 shot probes, +1 makes your tanks rock,
+1 hellions get 9 damage through all shields, not 8.
The attack upgrades will enable you to build less anti-air.
Voids rock vs thors.
2/2 thors vs 0/0 voids with 3-5 vikings?
Not so sweet for the protoss.Vikings can kite indefinitely and do survive to do damage in this case.
The point of this build IS to find a way to survive early game so you can get to the late game. Mech's strength is in the late game and you don't need to attack. Also you CAN get +1. You may have to cut scvs for a round but thats not really that big of a deal. Plus if you don't get thors than you are already going out of your way getting an armory just to get upgrades.
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I am a mech TVP lover myself in master league.
2 things i like to add:
Ghosts are important with their emp skill, because immortal and archon are a really good timing based hardcounter in midgame.
Try dumping your minerals in additional barracks and let them float with your army. You can use those for scouting and vision and if a big battle is about to occur, you can land those barracks in front of your army. This has 2 advantages:
- You create artificial barriers that let chargelots and archons be much less effective, they have to go around to attack
. You mess up ranged units targeting if they just a-move (Which most people will do in a big fight like that)
I have not tested that myself, so this barracks use is just theorycraft, but i feel like this might revolutionize the mech tvp matchup to make your army almost unkillable.
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It's good somoene posted a new guide on mech. I was thinig about experimenting with it, my idea was to start with bio. Geting 2-3 rax, stim & combat shield, mabye 1/1; 2/0 upgrades also later in game, a switch into only marrines from those rax can also be considered due to mech eating alot of gas; and then transition into mech. This should keep you safe against fast warprism/b-stalker rush and later on punish mass expanding if it occurs.
Another very important thing, Mass hellions beat any ground clumped up Protoss army due to their AoE attack i don't think anyone has noticed that yet. In fact I was about to test a mass hellion reactor expand tactic but i got shut down twice by my enemy going phoenixes :d It might however find it's use in mech, someone above said that you can't stop stalkers with hellions, well i think you can, you just need the right positioning.
I'm top masters if it counts.
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On February 14 2012 09:25 huyNh wrote:
you can't have a mech tvp guide without some GoOdy reps
GoOdy meching against protoss are against players that haven't seen mech before, are bad, or a combination of both.
Not saying that mech should NEVER work, but it depends a lot more on your opponent just being bad and building gateway units over immortals.
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On February 15 2012 22:55 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 09:25 huyNh wrote:
you can't have a mech tvp guide without some GoOdy reps GoOdy meching against protoss are against players that haven't seen mech before, are bad, or a combination of both. Not saying that mech should NEVER work, but it depends a lot more on your opponent just being bad and building gateway units over immortals.
That's not true at all. Up until very recently GoOdy was meching agianst some of the best Protoss players on the scene. So I don't know where you get your info. He has since switched to bio, citing the hellion nerf as the reason, but I really don't think that change was THAT big of a deal to warrant a complete style change.
I think mech still has a lot of untapped potential.
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Nice to see a mech TvP topic. This is what I play for some months and it's very effective. However I play more BW style with tank hellion ghost mix, and no thor, unless the protoss is going air.
I'll try your opening and your unit mix .
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EPT
