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On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote:
You´re talking trash.
Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad.
You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing.
Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all.
You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you.
MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws:
Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields.
Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army.
Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
i kind of agree.
but biomech builds are good till midgame, later on, you have to switch to ghostheavy bioplay though.
Mech doesnt cut it, especially without ghosts as you said. If you wouldve played a very highlvl protoss who abuses your immobility once, you would see that the only map where you can ghostmech in lategame is shakuras, because you can feel quite safe chilling in the middle with pfs and surrounding all your bases with turrents and sensor towers.
again i have to say that no matter what - diamond players shouldnt write guides too much, except they say that their guide is only for players of their lvl. especially with Mech vs protoss, its not like its an unexplored thing, ppl tried it for over a year now.
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I want to talk about timing push. Do you think if you don't do a 2base push like Virus or MKP, are you forced to enter in the mentality of never attack ? Maybe you can do some harass with banshee and hellion but never with your army and basily just turtle.
[Lyyna wrote:What? What do i hear? “When do you push?” ? Ahahah, good joke. The answer is simple : NEVER. Well, of course that’s kind of an exageration, you’ll sometimes push . . after defending 3 waves of super costly T3 units ,when he doesn’t have any ressources left . . .
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
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On March 24 2012 23:23 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 09:32 rgTheSchworz wrote:
You´re talking trash.
Any talk about biomech, or thor- based mech is either situational, all-in or troll.
Biomech doesn t share the same upgrades. Vs a protoss that upgrades faster than you do, it s terribad.
You know what unupgraded marines do to fully upgraded chargelots?. Nothing.
Why go Biomech? You have to keep your tanks together with your bio-army, which is not good at all.
You can t harass else you get picked apart.
Thor-based mech is bad because of Feedback and Immortals. Don t try to talk me out of this with EMP your own thors or get strike cannons, because you re essentially using more expensive units to barely beat cheap-ass units. It isnt even cost effective, by the way.Why use thors when you have marauders?They re basically more mobile, have more dps vs armored, lag behind a bit on dps vs zeals, but can kite, and are healable and droppable.
If you want to go mech, Tanks are the way.You can defend blinks with hellions if you actually took the time to surround the stalkers. Plus, there s always the next production cycle of tanks waiting to assist you.
MKP vs Genius was how to play mech, but had a few major flaws:
Too many marines. You have to rely on scouting vs air switches. Go hellions, they re better, giving that youre not going to research stim nor shields.
Late Upgrades.That s why, along with not target firing well, MKP lost the second battle.1/0 vs 1/2 even though MKP had the better army.
Not enough hellions.Make m, love em. Tons of those along with good wrapping around archons/Immortalls will save the day for you.Splash makes Hellions cost-efficient vs Stalkers and Immortals, and basically any non splash protoss-unit.
Can you please keep yourself up to date on the current discussion. The post you quoted is from months ago i kind of agree. but biomech builds are good till midgame, later on, you have to switch to ghostheavy bioplay though. Mech doesnt cut it, especially without ghosts as you said. If you wouldve played a very highlvl protoss who abuses your immobility once, you would see that the only map where you can ghostmech in lategame is shakuras, because you can feel quite safe chilling in the middle with pfs and surrounding all your bases with turrents and sensor towers. again i have to say that no matter what - diamond players shouldnt write guides too much, except they say that their guide is only for players of their lvl. especially with Mech vs protoss, its not like its an unexplored thing, ppl tried it for over a year now.
Please keep yourself up to date with the current discussion. NOBODY is discussing the OP in this thread anymore and the post you quoted is from the first page of a 26 page long thread right? Do you honestly think that in 26 pages, there has been no one coming here to say almost word for word exactly what you've said? Read through a few pages to find out why NOBODY wants to hear what you have to say unless you have tips for playing mech better, which you most certainly do not.
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On March 24 2012 23:37 Gyro_SC2 wrote:I want to talk about timing push. Do you think if you don't do a 2base push like Virus or MKP, are you forced to enter in the mentality of never attack ? Maybe you can do some harass with banshee and hellion but never with your army and basily just turtle. Show nested quote +[Lyyna wrote:What? What do i hear? “When do you push?” ? Ahahah, good joke. The answer is simple : NEVER. Well, of course that’s kind of an exageration, you’ll sometimes push . . after defending 3 waves of super costly T3 units ,when he doesn’t have any ressources left . . . + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
NO. Not with the MKP build. I don't have the playing experience with it yet but, IMO, that 10 min push is fantastic against a P that takes a very fast 3ed or techs to much. If he does none of that, then you have a ton of hellions to harass all over the map and depending on what dmg you do (and you will), you create your own timing...if you know what i mean.
What is very important with that build, is that it always keeps the P on his toes. He can't just sacrifice stupid amount of resorces (army) bacause you have such insane production capabilities available very early.
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Hmmm don't understand why people get so worked up in a [D] thread. But anyway to clarify my point a bit.
I originally said that, given two equal-skill players, one protoss one terran if the protoss player knows mech is coming, he shouldn't lose. A lot of people seem to be interpreting this as 'mech is bad don't do it,' so I'd like to clarify a few points.
Firstly, Mech can be brutally effective at the highest levels because as I stated several times, if a protoss player is playing a standard (v bio) game and the terran mechs he will simply get demolished. Coupled that with limited early game scout options and that's where the problems begin for protoss. Consider a protoss going for a 2 base colossus play, his robo support bay will be down (and mostly finished) before his obs can get into to scout and that puts him in a very awkward position. You can put it in the same category as a 1 gate FE v zerg, it's an absolutely trash build if the zerg is expecting it, but can often be better than a FFE if the zerg hasn't opened with gas first.
The problem with this, is that the more frequently mech is used, the less effective it is. Great as a surprise tactic, and can absolutely demolish a protoss player that isn't preparing for mech, but going mech every single game (in a tournament setting) is putting yourself at a disadvantage (at least with the current level of game knowledge). On the other hand this actually makes mech a very good ladder strategy.
If that is all you want, and you're happy with it, then go for it, but if your goal is to be as good at this game as it's possible to be (which is what I think everyone's goal should be) then you have to understand the limitations of mech.
I'd also like to point out that I was not 'simply' listing reasons why mech is ineffective, but rather drawing parallels with Brood War. Brood War TvP *was* well balanced with mech, but making the move to sc2, Terran picks up several disadvantages, and Protoss picks up several advantages (and some of them are quite extreme). It is then not at all surprising that mech is somewhat weak in the matchup. The one point I did forget to mention was the fact that the elevated gas collection rate per base (increase from something like 220/min in BW to 300/min in SC2 - not sure of the exact figures) does help the terran mech more than the protoss, but not in a way significant enough to alter the balance.
Now, to be quite frank, this is CRUICIAL to this discussion, even if it is a discussion on *how* to go mech. If you're opting for any given strategy in the game, you really *must* be aware of its limitations. Infact that should be a top priority. If you're doing a build with no knowledge of what the build fares poorly against, well you're simply not going to have much fun with it. I am voicing something that, yes is fairly common knowledge, but is directly relevant to 'how to go mech in SC2.' If you're playing against a protoss player who figures out you're meching early enough, and knows how to respond correctly, you are simply in a poor situation. That doesn't mean you can't win, just that it will be harder for you to win than for him to win.
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Shut. Up. That's not what we are discussing. That's not what this thread is about. Regardless of the validity of your points, nobody comes to this thread to discuss the viability of mech, as it is titled 'how to mech.' If you want to about mech viability I suggest you make a thread for it as this is not the place.
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once again, gorapadong's build has been used in GSTL
set 2
Sound vs Tails
I wasn't able to watch it (darn!) but he went for the 2 reactor factory variation instead of 3. I wonder if it had to do with both player's econ being lower since the protoss went for a 2 base 4 gate pressure (idk how much it did) so he wanted to just push earlier instead of waiting for more econ to support 4 fact, or if he was preparing to take his third and tech up faster like MKP did in MKP vs Genius.
Mech strikes again :D
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On March 24 2012 00:28 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 23:19 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Hey guy ! have you played the new 6m2g map. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321242Because we have less ressource both player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood. And its more hard for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress are more strong and its help to terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility. Its like this. Hey guy s ! have you played the new 6m2g map. ?Because we have less re source both s player stick for a long time with midgame army. I feel mech is viable in this mood. And its hard er for the protoss to do 1base allin on us. Also planetary fortress strong er and it help s terran to mass expand and fix the problem of immobility. User was warned for this post
I laughed alot after i read this. If your gonna be an ass and correct someone, should at least take the time to do it right (unless you were trolling, in which case you succeeded)
On topic: I love the idea of mech, and find this thread fascinating. Will be trying out some of the builds and strategies in it.
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Ok just finished watching Sound vs Tails
He did a variation where he left 1 guy in gas, allowing him to get his Factory on time (a few seconds faster), then put them back in after dropping the CC
He went for 2 reactors so he was less committed to that push/composition. He moved forward, but he saw the colossus, so he backed up especially since his 2 factories were slightly late (sound's nat was delayed so he couldn't get the 3rd gas up faster to get the 2nd and 3rd facts sooner) and so he couldnt siege/engage without the hellions. Once the hellions came, he saw p chasing him so he sieged up at the center where there is that fountain thing that provides some sort of a small wall. Seeing no immortals, he knew he would win if he got some vikings, so he pulled back instead of trying to siege protoss again. Then he pushed again and killed his army really easily, bringing SCVs because the "real" hard push came late, meaning he is already saturated on 2 base so he is able to bring more to make his push stronger while still having the same income as the normal push (which would have occured if he didn't pull back seeing the colossus).
I'm so happy to see this game, because I learned these things (how to react if he gets colossus instead of immortals). It seems tails was doing the wrong thing especially since he tried to take a third. Colossi will help stop the first push, but after that if he gets vikings and pushes again and you don't have things that require terran to get ghost tech (like archon or immortal or storm) then he can win easily. Now if he went for the 4 factory push, he would probably have sieged up anyways with that 1 colossi, since he has higher production, and he has 4 fact on 2 base so he can't really fit a starport in there.
gorapadong always does 4 factory push, and byun did the same, but now from MKP and sound's game it seems like 3 fact might be better, at least in the way that it makes the push less of a commitment and gives you more options and makes the game longer.
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I don't like mech builds that don't incorporate banshees. Something about the build feels really unstable to me. As much as I like seeing mech in pro games (and this one CERTAINLY satisfies all of the complaints people had about the MKP vs Genius game since there were not absurd probe kills and the protoss was actually ahead going into the midgame), I don't feel comfortable with this build.
I watched a few games with you practicing it on your stream, Yoshi, and it didn't look very strong; it felt like the protoss could abuse you in so many ways and you could never trade efficiently. I felt like you sacrificed the safety and map control and harassment potential that banshees give you for a ground army that is overall still really vulnerable to a protoss who just over commits to immortals. I think banshees keep protoss honest in the same way as the do in a 111 allin: they need a lot of anti-air to survive engagements which weakens their anti-ground army.
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I agree. I've been doing this build thinking maybe it's stronger/better than ones with Banshees, but I just like banshees much more. They give map control and force the toss to be much more careful with army comp, instead of this ground mech army where you have to worry a lot about your composition. Also harassment is pretty easy APM wise especailly.
Sometimes the push feels strong, sometimes it feels weak. Idk why, maybe it's their composition, or i don't have a progamer's micro so that my push isn't as good as it should be.
I think i may only be using that 4 fact push as an occasional thing, though maybe gorapadong or the pros know otherwise. With the reactor marine expand into siege tank you can, instead of adding 2-3 more factories, get cloak banshee and then transition into mid game mech by adding more factories and later ghosts (or if he's really immortal heavy, perhaps earlier). So I guess it's a good strat if he doesn't see it coming like in a BoX, you can use this 3-4 fact push to catch them off guard instead.
However another thing:
I wonder why they get vikings instead of banshees. I know that vikings are way better in some ways cus you can build 2 at a time for 200/150 instead of 1 banshee at a time for 200/175 (and time wise, you can actually build 3 viking in 1 minute and only 1 banshee in 1 minute), so for bio you should definitely keep that. However this isn't bio. But maybe the mobility of the vikings is needed since your mech army is immobile and siege tanks can't attack the colossi without sieging up or leap frogging. Meh. I feel like the banshees help a lot versus immortals and colossi, but maybe that's just cus i'm not playing at the level the pros do. And of course the banshees help in other ways like for defending against harass. Maybe we only see vikings with that 3-4 fact push because they don't plan on playing a longer game? (and MKP vs Genius was weird, he didn't get ghost tech for a while and just kept trading mech armies, maybe his pro game sense is really reliable but to me it seemed really risky to trade mech armies like that with a protoss army).
Though ofc, since that 3-4 fact is pretty light on gas, adding more starports/banshees to make up for the lesser count compared to viking shouldn't hurt too much. Perhaps after the 3-4 fact push, instead of adding an armory/ghostacademy/starport, i could just add 2 starports and 1 armory (or 2) and make 2 banshees at a time instead of viking/ghost. That would make my composition leaner, and make it easier to micro. And it would force protoss to worry about composition more than me. Using ghost/viking and reacting to protoss' comp can make bumps into your play when your army isn't the perfect composition. It would be a lot of gas especially until I take my third, but I should have 500-1000 gas at that point from making only 1 tank at a time, and could cut the hellions a bit if I'm running low on money.
I was trying to think of an expand build where you can get siege tanks and cloak banshee and then add 2 reactor factories and still push before his colossi kick in hard, but I don't think there's any way to fit all that and still hit before 11:00. I also wonder if a 2/2/2 push is stronger. But maybe I'm forgetting you don't need to push, you can just open expand into 1/1/1 then add more factories and then harass with banshee and hellions.
Now that I think of it, I think i used to win more with banshees than with this heavy ground army.
For tomorrow, I think I'll go back and try out builds like cloak banshee expand and gasless expand (into cloak banshee into siege tank or thor then siege tank later, or if he's 1 basing or doing something non-passive then siege tank before cloak banshee).
Another idea: in MKP vs Genius, Genius went for HT play so he didn't have many immortals (if at all?). Maybe if I open gasless expand into siege tank as standard (instead of gasless expand into cloak banshee into siege tank), I could auto-win vs anyone going for templar tech by adding 2-3 more facts like MKP did. Though this would mean that my banshees are delayed and if he doesn't get templar tech, then I would be worse off than just getting banshees all the time. Maybe I won't even be able to know if he's going for templar tech or not before i decide what to make V-V
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what about hightemplar feedback on thors and ravens + storm can decimate clumped tanks
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is that all you're gonna say, cus did you know that vikings really rape colossi and ghosts are great against HT and marauders rape stalkers and marines rape zealots? obviously colossi and HT still have their place
get ghosts to stop HTs and/or for earlier timings you can bring LOTS of SCVs to repair, after feedbacking his HTs will be not so useful and his army will be smaller than usual
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I don't see why you're not using reactor expand to transition to your mech play of choice. Its such a stable, economic build. Also I hate using Vikings before the late game just because of the 'dead supply' factor.
I like units that always provide utility, which is why I'm incorporating a hellion drop into my build so that I have a medivac to drop hellions all game. The same is true for banshees. Banshees can always be useful: Vikings may not. I add them in late game to deal with air transitions and because I can afford using the excess supply. If they commit too hard to colossus in the midgame anyway they will lose to a high banshee count.
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I hate that dead supply thing as well, and landing them on ground sucks cus of chargelots and immortals.
Perhaps the reason why the pros opt to get Vikings just has to do with their higher level of skill; maybe they don't find it as hard trying to make a perfect composition than we do? They have much more experience and game sense so at their level of play I think things are less in the dark than when us mere masters play. But even so, I think both hellion and banshee harass would be really good. But MKP opted for medivacs instead of banshees. Obviously both banshees and hellions have their own strengths but I think hellions might actually be better. You can produce them faster and it's harder to stop your probes from being killed. Hellions can kill probes much faster and they can suicide into canons while Banshees can't. They would have to sit troops at their mineral line instead of just putting a few canons at each base.
Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much though and it's just partially also just preference ^^. Goody likes to open with hellion/marine drop/harass (ideally a 2 prong). HannibalPrime opened with that as well vs MC back in GSTL several months ago. Both the goals of banshee/hellion is to harass and force him to stay home to defend, kill probes, scout his tech and army and upgrades, get map control, etc. etc. So I guess the map should play an important role in deciding which to favor (unless you pick both) for the majority of the game.
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EPT
