|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
I can but I am only in diamond now that I switch to mech in every match up from being a low master Z, it is quite the change lol. If you're still interested in mid-diamond replays ill find some
I was getting crushed in almost every 200/200 late game mech vs P game unless I got the perfect engagement in late game when the Protoss got 3/3 upgrades, and I found the BC is necessary and is the anchor of the final composition.
How long do you stay producing marines? You must upgrade them right? The only success I've had with the 3-4 Thor/Marine (unupgraded)/Banshee/Raven push is when my Banshees get a ton of kills, or they invest too much in Pheonix/Void rays (by that I mean like 5 Phoenix or more). But I stopped using that and switching to Tanks and Hellions a lot sooner like I said in my guide. I think it just allows me to take a faster third and punish (with hellions/dropship/banshee) a faster third by my opponent.
What does your preferred 2 base composition look like? What about 3 base? What about just your ideal composition?
Oh yeah, and what league are you in, if you don't mind me asking?
|
As a high master T meching every single game :
-I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion
-Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote:
As a high master T meching every single game :
-I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion
-Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
Why Vikings or Banshees? DPS:Supply ratio-wise they do only a couple more damage than a BC, and with upgrades they actually do less DPS. Combine that with an insanely smaller staying power and is it even worth it? I would think just more BFH, because I realized the best way a Protoss can deal with this Mech/Sky deathball is to clear out all the tanks in one engagement and the they are much better off to clear the air because their Stalkers are safe. And usually the only way to do that is Chargelots.
|
Vikings if he's getting a bunch of VR ,in case i cant mass ravens with HSM or thors (for example if he's only getting a small amount of uppgraded VR with a huge ground army).
Banshee because you can use them with cloack to pick pylons,assimilators, HT behind his army,etc. And also because their dps is really good for their cost, so if i'm tight in gaz . . why not
And well, in late game,that's the point of getting that tank/ghost/BC/Raven army (with,as said, some thors,hellions,vikings,banshees). With the insane dps of that army,even a maxed chargelot force will have a really hard time killing all the tanks, and even if he succeed, he's trading a billion of chargelots for . .well, like 15 tanks, 10 hellions,and 3 4 thors . . he still has to deal all the ghosts (cloacked, and observers are easy to destroy), BC, full energy ravens,etc . . before your tank reprod come on the field.
The mass chargelot problem has never been a problem for me.I just respond with more BC/Raven to force him to getting AA, which can be air (VR getting shred by HSM, carriers by BC + ghosts + HSM), stalkers (tanks + ravens), or archons (ghosts + tanks),and if possible (which is often the case. 15 orbitals every game ftw) i also add PF/supply walls ( and even auto-turrets if my ravens have enough energy) , so he just cant get to my tanks . .
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Right so you just get the Viking/Banshee if you can't get the Battlecruiser for some reason, that's all I was wondering about. Because in every situation, even against Void Rays, getting Battlecruisers are just stronger for their supply in both DPS and armor/health. I still think its better to just get BFH and not even "waste" the gas on Banshees or Vikings and use it on Battlecruisers when you can.
Your point about using Tanks + Ravens to deal with Stalkers was exactly my point about the Chargelot situation. You misunderstood me there. I wasn't saying I have a hard time dealing with Chargelots, only that the strongest strategy I have seen vs this style is to wipe the ground army out, mostly with Chargelot, and then win with warped in Mass Stalkers. Obviously they need a huge bank in this situation, and that isn't always the case, only saying that this is the strongest strategy I have faced. Nothing with VR's or Immortals or anything techy like that is scary IMO.
We use very similiar compositions for our TvP's, just one more question, when do you get Ravens with HSM. I only keep 1 or 2 Ravens around for PDD, but don't prioritize HSM over Thors, Banshees early on, Tanks, Ghosts, or Battlecruisers. When do you squeeze that in? And do you get the starting energy as well? I have been lucky enough in all my games so far that I am killing them as I take my fourth so I never even need to get it, but that's the only time that makes sense to me that I would, if we had reached that sort of "passive" late game scenario.
|
I usually try to keep alive my raven got from my 111 Opening, and i'll try to not add ravens until i'm able to get my first 'good max' (like when i'm on 4/5 bases, starting to sac scv and get orbitals, i'll at that point start to get ravens and BC). I get the starting energy only if i feel i do have enough gas, HSM is the most important uppgrade to get.
But if i see he's getting bunch of VR in 'early lategame' or stalkers, i'll not hesitate to get 3/4 ravens on 3 bases for example
edit : saw your edit. Yeah , i misunderstood a bit. Imo the best strat for the toss is to get a MS, good vortex on the tank , and have a good mix of everything . . but that rely on the T being slow on EMP. In fact i've nearly never lost with that lategame army in a classic situation
|
I feel like the main reason this works at a non pro level is that as the Terran you're going to go play a large number of games Meching vs Protoss where as the Protoss you're playing has likely played less than 10 games vs full Mech. Rather than it being solid it works because the Protoss doesn't know how to react.
A win is a win though so it doesn't really matter I guess,
|
On March 11 2012 12:39 Seraphone wrote:
I feel like the main reason this works at a non pro level is that as the Terran you're going to go play a large number of games Meching vs Protoss where as the Protoss you're playing has likely played less than 10 games vs full Mech. Rather than it being solid it works because the Protoss doesn't know how to react.
A win is a win though so it doesn't really matter I guess,
I used to agreed with that, but i'm starting to play more and more high lvl players,and well,even some of these people who already saw mech in TvP (hey goody :D) can have some problem fighting it.
And also, the 'don't know how to react' point isn't always good, because when you've done a good number of games with mech, you have of course encounter some people able to react in a correct way
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 11 2012 12:32 Lyyna wrote:
I usually try to keep alive my raven got from my 111 Opening, and i'll try to not add ravens until i'm able to get my first 'good max' (like when i'm on 4/5 bases, starting to sac scv and get orbitals, i'll at that point start to get ravens and BC). I get the starting energy only if i feel i do have enough gas, HSM is the most important uppgrade to get.
But if i see he's getting bunch of VR in 'early lategame' or stalkers, i'll not hesitate to get 3/4 ravens on 3 bases for example
edit : saw your edit. Yeah , i misunderstood a bit. Imo the best strat for the toss is to get a MS, good vortex on the tank , and have a good mix of everything . . but that rely on the T being slow on EMP. In fact i've nearly never lost with that lategame army in a classic situation
Do you expand very liberally with this Strat? Like how fast do you take 4 bases given everything went smoothly? And do you take bases 'out of your way' and simply defend them with Planetaries + Turrets? What units do you send to defend them, your whole army? Or do you just trade a base for a base? Or do you just get in a good position so that he cannot leave the base of yours he killed without losing his army (this is what I've been trying to do when I don't catch them on the way to one of my bases)? I've also only been expanding to bases that are "on the way" though, and perhaps I've underestimated my ability to take far away expansions. For example, on Antiga, I will just take the natural 3, and then the 4th in the middle while establishing a position and cutting him off from expansions, and then going for the kill. I'm sorry I have sooooo many questions. Would you be willing to give me some replays of your Mech PvT. I'd be interested in any of them: games you lose to early pressure, games you win with early pressure (hopefully I understand why that pressure worked), same goes for midgame scenarios win/lose, interesting Protoss compositions to see how you dealt with them, and all games that went into the late game I would love to see. Basically all your TvP replays! lol thanks so much if you can do this! I feel I have a lot to learn but I really enjoy Mech in every matchup - especially TvP because its so un-figured out. :DDDD
@Seraphone - That's a valid point, but that's how the metagame develops for any strategy. One side figures out how to stop X, and the other makes adjustments and it goes back and forth and back and forth. You might "feel like" Protoss hasn't figured out how to stop this style because they don't see it, but just the same, whatever a Protoss can do to solidly play against it, Terrans haven't been able to make adjustments to weaknesses Protoss might find. It's a trip down the rabbit hole to dismiss something for the reason you gave IMHO.
|
You should add "production/reinforcement time" to the list of weaknesses mech has.
It's very unforgiving in this way. If you lose your main army and you haven't done a significant amount of damage to their main production the game is pretty much over. Mech armies take forever to replace while Protoss' Warp Gate mechanic allows them to rebuild their army very easily.
|
On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote:
As a high master T meching every single game :
-I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion
-Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees
You open 111 exp in TvP? In high masters...? I presume you do put on a lot of pressure maybe taking out protoss second base, killing probes or something, because 111 opening into expand should be terrible vs a decent protoss. I would love to see some replays of this.
|
Please use drop.sc for future replays.
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 11 2012 13:53 ][Primarch][ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote:
As a high master T meching every single game :
-I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion
-Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees You open 111 exp in TvP? In high masters...? I presume you do put on a lot of pressure maybe taking out protoss second base, killing probes or something, because 111 opening into expand should be terrible vs a decent protoss. I would love to see some replays of this.
Can you be more specific in your language, it's impossible for anybody to learn anything from what you are saying. Could you describe what his reactor rax/tech lab fact/tech lab Starport is not safe against? Like, what build are you saying would crush it? Or what build are you saying would have a huge economic lead against it? It would be awesome if you could keep talking in specifics like this instead of how you are talking now.
|
ZjiublingZ : Yes, i do expand a lot with this strat,and i also get a lots of orbitals. I try usually to get a 4th by 15 minutes, while having usually 2 to 3 PF (3th, 4th, and sometimes 1 in the middle of the map), and 4/5 orbitals. Massing orbitals is imo the key, as you can mass scan (total map control) / mules (enjoy 5K mineral income).
I do usualy send the hellion/banshee/bc/raven to defend harassment (number depending of what is attacking and where,leaving my tanks in the middle to hold (this is why getting a PF in the middle is good : he cant engage 10+tanks protected by a PF cost effectively) . I also do use mass sensor towers (like 1 or 2 / base) to spot everything that can be a threat.
If u want i'll give u my replay packs and a link to my stream, so you can see how do i mech in 'first person view'. (if you want to see me loosing, better to look at my stream, as i only include my wins in my replays pack. I'm a bit bm when loosing to protoss, because most of them do not have the skill they should have at this level, and when i loose,it's usually because of a terrible error like forgetting BF, not scouting fast 3rd,etc . . my 'non-stupid loss' vs Mech are usually versus big 2 bases semi allinish chargelot/archon/immortal push with mass uppgrades,as they come during that hard timing when i've to secure my 4th (if i didn't scout the lack of 3rd from his side) while having only a few ghosts and no BC. This is in fact why i started to get middle map PF)
Vindicare605 : that's the poing of getting an army far better than his. If he has to loose all his army to destroy half of yours, his mass production his pointless has he'll at least need to wait a 2nd warp wave to remax, and by that time you can get a hellion/tank reprod for example.
][Primarch][ : i don't really see your point here?
If you are talking about safety , 111 is probably the safest possible thing. And in most case, if the toss try to cheese, just 311 allin him back.
About expansion : i hate the current mindset of 'omg if i don't have an expansion at 5 min i'm dead §§§'. Kind of stupid. If i spot the toss FE i just cut units production, and plant down my CC like 1 or 2 Minutes after his nexus in case of a 1 gate FE. I usually don't harass (2 not cloacked banshees). In fact that's what of the main caracteristic of my play : i do never harass,and nearly never make an offensive move, in any matchup. My play is all about getting my ultimate lategame defensive position.
|
On March 11 2012 14:28 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 13:53 ][Primarch][ wrote:On March 11 2012 12:01 Lyyna wrote:
As a high master T meching every single game :
-I keep producing marine out of 1 reactored barracks (i open 111 exp) until ~~10 min, then i put my 2nd fact on the reactor to get hellion
-Uppgrading marines isn't needed for a mech army. Uppgrade them if you're going for a biomech army
-Usually on 2 bases,the best things to get is thor/hellion/banshee in my opinion
-On 3 bases,add tanks and ghosts. On 4 bases,i'll start to add BC and raven
-My ideal army lategame is a good number of tanks (8 being a minimum, 15 is good), some ravens (4-5, maybe more if he's going mass air) for PDD/HSM, a few thors (always good to have these guys in your armys), good number of BC (10 BC with tank and raven support is stupidly insane), ghosts (8-10 usually. Too much is overkill, but too few can kill you if he can get too much feedbacks before you can EMP, or any stupid thing like that), and then fill remaining supply with hellions/vikings/banshees You open 111 exp in TvP? In high masters...? I presume you do put on a lot of pressure maybe taking out protoss second base, killing probes or something, because 111 opening into expand should be terrible vs a decent protoss. I would love to see some replays of this. Can you be more specific in your language, it's impossible for anybody to learn anything from what you are saying. Could you describe what his reactor rax/tech lab fact/tech lab Starport is not safe against? Like, what build are you saying would crush it? Or what build are you saying would have a huge economic lead against it? It would be awesome if you could keep talking in specifics like this instead of how you are talking now.
111 openings without harassing the protoss is useless and you will be far behind if u play a decent opponent. Or maybe this is the new super-build-opening in TvP but the progamers don't not have the metagame skill that some low level players who does these kind of openings have, derp.
Post replays and back this up for gods sake.
|
Why don't you first back up what you're saying by telling us WHAT will make us so far behind by opening 111 expo and,as i said, cutting units if the toss FE to expand ourself ?
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
@ ][Primarch][
You're still being really vague and not actually saying anything. Instead of saying "You will be far behind to a decent opponent", please state what a Protoss would do that would put you far behind, and exactly why you are far behind.
@Lyyna
Yeah I'd love to just have a link to vods on your stream because I'm just as interested in how this style loses as I am how it wins, because obviously neither of us is going to be playing it perfectly. Link your replay packs too though, I would like to watch those as well.
|
http://www.mediafire.com/?ka8g8kx5ksjzk
I upload a lots of replays (only wins though, for reasons only regarding me). You should find some TvP there.
My stream is phxgaming on twitch tv. Me and my team mates stream all on it, so you might need to search a bit in the VOD to find my games
|
Mech is TvP is my favorite strategy in ladder game, cause in late game it is quite strong against protoss army, even the protoss player have some void rays and carriers.
But my opening is different to you, I'd like to make 6-8 marines and 2 siege tank first if protoss didn't make a expansion, and I don't build a stargate in the early game. And I don't understand why you want a raven so early, because I think that the immortals and void rays ( if protoss uses a 3 gate 1 robo or starport all-in rush ) are the greatest threat to a Mech terran in the early game.
Anyway, it's a good guide!
|
+ Show Spoiler +On March 12 2012 07:28 SnowCat wrote:
Mech is TvP is my favorite strategy in ladder game, cause in late game it is quite strong against protoss army, even the protoss player have some void rays and carriers.
But my opening is different to you, I'd like to make 6-8 marines and 2 siege tank first if protoss didn't make a expansion, and I don't build a stargate in the early game. And I don't understand why you want a raven so early, because I think that the immortals and void rays ( if protoss uses a 3 gate 1 robo or starport all-in rush ) are the greatest threat to a Mech terran in the early game.
Anyway, it's a good guide!
Early raven is great to deflect DT, sniping obs to avoid blink in base, helps a lots defending vs stalkers and banshees too . . .and auto turret also does a lot of damage
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
