I'm not going to respond in detail to all of Palmar's giant OMGUS, but only parts, because it'd be a waste of time. The guy's scum, and we need to lynch him. If there's a part you want me to address, but I didn't, let me know.
Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to.
I made a mistake with the thing with Bluelightz, my bad, but still, his question was dumb, and detracted from the thread. He should know that making hypotheticals is not preferable to just asking what you really mean. As well, he didn't put pressure on Bluelightz, because he had nothing substantial to put pressure on him with. He didn't vote him, he didn't even say he was scum, just made allusions to it.
Also, Palmar did not attack bad posts, he did not play aggressively, and he acted incredibly timid. This is enough for me to get a scum vibe off many people, but because it's Palmar, it becomes even worse, so please stop saying my case is entirely meta. It's based off Palmar's behavior, and also his behaviour in comparison to normal.
Have you noticed that he has still yet to do anything useful? When I'm scum, I love nothing more than for someone to accuse me of something or start an argument, because it gives me something to argue against to look like I'm contributing. Palmar's wall of text is a defense of himself that's longer than the original case, with two lines tacked onto the end where he OMGUS's me. It provides nothing in the way of useful content.
According to Palmar, my case is terrible. So, if it is terrible, why go to such effort to try to refute it? If it's terrible, then it shouldn't pick up steam, so he shouldn't be scared of it. If it's terrible, why is he so worried about it that he has to make a post longer than the analysis itself defending against it? It screams that Palmar is self-aware and anxious. It shows us that he's worried about being called scum, and worried that he might be lynched. A townie wouldn't be that worried, because he knows the analysis is wrong, and if he thinks it's terrible as well, he should be even less worried.
Also notice that after being called out for not being aggressive, and not calling out bad play, he comes back and makes these posts:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 19:34 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 09:16 Erandorr wrote:
Ya I probably should post sometime soon but I am really tired and want to sleep soon. If anyone has any question for me just go ahead, I will provide content of my own tomorrow. This guy should be shot during the night. On January 06 2012 19:41 Palmar wrote:
I think he's too much of an asshole to flip scum. In addition, he called me the best player in the game, so that's townie points. On January 06 2012 20:16 Palmar wrote:
That's just straight up wrong Cwave, not sure what it makes you.
Syllogism has provided arguments as for why he thinks risk.nuke is scum, and is pushing me to agree with him. On January 06 2012 22:52 Palmar wrote:
how about you do something useful layabout. If you're scum, you already know I'm not, and if you're town, you've just reached the correct conclusion.
What do you think about my case against mr. wiggles? Can you explain further why you want to lynch grackaroni (I agree that his play is just... derp, so far, but why do you think so?) On January 06 2012 22:54 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 22:35 Jackal58 wrote:On January 06 2012 19:04 Tyrran wrote:On January 06 2012 11:14 Refallen wrote:
I'm thinking Jackal is town this game. At least, he appears to be taking a different route than on TLXLVIII when he was scum. Plus I don't think any scum would risk trying to outright lynch Palmar without a really detailed case.
I disagree with you here. From the few games I've read Palmar seems to be a efficient scum hunter.Bussing Palmar is therefore an good scum strat. Almost EVERY SINGLE one of Jackal post were attacking palmar. And he NEVER had more than 1 line of justification. He did not even refer to MrWiggles case. That is scummy play for me. Also note that as there is 2 scum faction, they can perfectly both be scum, one angel and one demon. I'll be looking at both of them today. Palmar need to step up his game, and Jackal needs to start become useful. Almost all of my day 1 posts attack Palmar. It's a habit. Not necessarily a bad one either. And do you think that's productive? Are you town? Do you think you're helping town progress right now? On January 06 2012 23:50 Palmar wrote:
risk, get in here and explain your plan. It better not be dumb. On January 07 2012 00:14 Palmar wrote:
if he is carefully reading the thread, how come he falsely accused me of not asking bluelightz who he wanted to lynch? Are you not carefully reading the thread?
Which are more in-line with what Town Palmar does. However, none of them do anything useful. They're either pointless questions, or attempts to look aggressive. None of them have the potential to produce useful information, and none of them will help lead us to scum. Because they do nothing useful, it leads me to believe that he simply made them to draw suspicion off of himself. Also compare these posts to the ones he made in the first 48 hours, and you should also be able to see the giant change in tone, almost like he's overcompensating.
Next look at how Palmar still posts when talking to syllogism:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 20:08 Palmar wrote:I kinda lean town-ish on you. I'm not sure though, at least you look useful for now. If you're scum, you've at least stepped it up since last game. (for those that don't know I was mafia traitor, and since syllo was so obvious scum day 1, my breadcrumb to the mafia was simply to call syllogism obvious town). Since I've only played with you as scum once where I haven't known you're scum, and figured it out in like half a day, I'm just gonna assume you're town for now. I do care, I was asking you to point out the meta, not the stuff in this thread, I guess I can go to election mafia and read his day 1 later. The read I had on him was "worthless, unsure it makes him scum". I was hoping you'd explain the meta so I don't have to think. The particular response you linked is correct and I agree with what risk.nuke is saying (there is actually no need to commit to a lynch) however, it's useless if he himself doesn't actually generate any discussion which he hasn't done. In addition, he claims to have had some sort of a plan? agenda? which is at best terrible, at worst scummy. There seems to actually be nothing to that plan. I'd like to hear him at least explain what the hell he was hoping to achieve by it. The reason I'm a bit on the fence about him is this: Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 04:18 risk.nuke wrote:
syllo, I started the post about 2 hours ago. I share what I want to share when I want to share it. Don't try and control me and please don't try to meta me. All my games I have a different style because I play varying of my mood.
It's just... cocky enough to probably not be scummy. I guess I wouldn't mind him being shot. Did you actually read the parts where wiggles says things that are straight up wrong? On January 06 2012 20:30 Palmar wrote:
as I said, not in the mood to read election mafia until later. Seeing as I think you're town and you seem pretty convinced in this read I'd probably support it down the line, but I simply think it's more likely wiggles will flip scum. Assume wiggles is already dead and I'd be more interested.
don't try to meta me is certainly something scum would rather say than town, however in the context, it's basically null.
Why are you forcing this so hard? If you think I'm town, and are town yourself, you know I will go find out if what you say is true, and you know that I do listen to you. You also know that I'm not just going to flop on something as solid as the case against wiggles. Do you actually think Wiggles says things that are factually wrong against a townie he knows is going to be valuable as town to attempt to get him lynched on day 1? No matter how you look at it Wiggles's play is completely anti-town, the only question is if that makes him scum (I guess the same goes for risk.nuke).
Just convince other people, if people actually think your case against risk.nuke is stronger than mine against wiggles, they will vote it, and I will probably support it unless I find any damning evidence otherwise. None of the things I mentioned in risk's favor make him town, they just are kinda off as scum too.
He still maintains the same careful and timid posting that he exhibited in the first 48 hours. He's basically paying lip service to syllogism to keep him off his back, while doing nothing else of value in the thread. Syllogism is one of the other players that would actually be able to lead a lynch on Palmar, so he's being careful not to disturb him, and to buddy up to him as much as he can.
So, in conclusion, the next part of Palmar's play:
- Makes a giant defense of himself that screams that he's self-aware and afraid of the lynch
- Calls me scum for being "bad", and OMGUS's, which he should know is bad play
- Makes a bunch of posts that seem aggressive and forward on the surface, but really are useless and overcompensate
- Acts timid and careful when dealing with Syllogism in an attempt to buddy up
- Still doesn't provide or produce any useful information for the town
This guy keeps digging himself deeper and deeper with his attempts to avoid the lynch.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
My serious issues with Erandorr STILL STAND. He is hustling us. He is doing it right now. I am geniunely concerned about him. I would be heartily surprised if he were town. Why haven't you posted anything of substance, Erandorr? Yes, you've been away, but you've also been NOT AWAY, and frankly, we're down to the last sleep cycle before the day end during which everyone will get a chance to leave comments.
Your actions over the course of the last couple days have done little to convince me of your usefulness.
However, I feel that it has come time to weigh in on Palmar v. Wiggles. I'm going to present a concise case summarizing what I would characterize as the feel of these player's play so far this game. I will say who I think is scum. I will present my strongest read.
And then I am going to vote.
I will begin by opening Palmar's filter. Wiggles has done a reasonable comprehensive job of going after Palmar, but tunnels are dark and cause, well, tunnel vision. I will add in a tunnel here until instead of tunnels we have a big dome area where it's easy for everyone to see what's going on.
It's not the best analogy, but you get it.
Day 1 begins January 04 2012 15:00 KST.
Palmar before Wiggles comes at him bro
+ Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 20:33 Palmar wrote:
I'm a kite! Meaningless. Nothing much is happening yet, though. About 18 hours and 6 pages later, Harbringer presents a "Palmar is Lurking" case: On January 05 2012 15:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
So how would people feel about lynching Palmar or Erandorr if they don't start posting more? Both have posted nothing of worth so far, Palmar was even active elsewhere on the mafia forum today, and both are known for doing very little as scum. Palmar responds with more trolling: On January 05 2012 18:36 Palmar wrote:
I claimed kite, that's pretty pro-town? 30 minutes later, he makes his first post that isn't an obvious troll: On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote:
As a public service I'm going to list up some stupid stuff going on in the thread:
Anyone talking about demon or angel strategy either is one, or is dumb. It's completely irrelevant to the goal at hand.
The discussion about whether we should be lynching demons or angels is even dumber. We're going to lynch scum, I don't care what kind of scum, and thinking we can somehow figure out what type of scum multiple players are is just... derp. Bringing this up almost looks like testing the waters/reducing the threat level of one faction (your own).
The discussion about how and when a seer should claim is also dumb. He doesn't need to claim if he doesn't suck. Any good Cop can just make a case once he has a guilty, or make a case to save an innocent, and push it. Knowing the player is scum makes writing the case so much easier.
@Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
@Cwave: Dirkzor's point is essentially correct, however, the fact that he felt the need to correct people by specifically demonstrating demons are no less threatening than angels, instead of just telling everyone to shut up and talk about something productive is however kinda scummy. The fact he's talking about the night cycle doesn't really say a lot. Talking about this post: Palmar makes a couple obvious observations about scum and claims. His statements are correct and I agree with them. However, the person he's addressing with the "seer claiming is dumb" statement is Harbringer, whose previous post was like 13 hours earlier: + Show Spoiler +On January 05 2012 03:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
Some things to think about:
If the town seer claims after finding a single angel we have a 2/3 chance of reducing their kp, 2/3 chance of making it much safer to claim corruption, and a 100% chance of getting a lot of good information after the angel flips. There are no abilities in the game which make the reads come back incorrect. The angels also DO NOT have a roleblocking ability, so they then have to decide if they want to target the seer and risk missing a kp if the seer is sent to purgatory or leave him be. Obviously this becomes much riskier if we have already lost our channeler. I'd be interested to hear if other people think having the seer claim after their first angel find is a good idea as well.
The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel.
The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that.
On Bluelightz:
I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. And had already been shot down by several people. Palmar here is contributing on the surface, but really was just repeating what had already been said. He asks a couple questions, but it's not real pressure. Overall, this post isn't BAD. In the context of several scumhunting and pressure actions on d1 this would be a normal Palmar post, actually. He WOULD slap down a guy who's already been slapped down. Normally he'd call the guy out by name, but slapping a guy down is exactly what Palmar would do. Shortly thereafter, Syllogism says that Palmar is normally more active d1, and therefore is likely scum out of all the lurkers. Dirkzor says Palmar is stifling discussion. Palmar's retort: On January 05 2012 20:10 Palmar wrote:
No, I want to shut people up who are talking about trivial stuff that cannot possibly lead us to finding scum, thus simply cluttering the thread with useless information. Creating noise over true evidence is not helping.
But since you are around, please tell me, who would you lynch, right now? I will provide the same answer to you in turn. At this point, he enters the discussion actively. On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote:
@Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. Hedging on BL. Notes that he can't really pick risk cause risk hasn't posted. Says he wouldn't mind lynching Jack or RoL for being experienced lurkers. No commitments or analysis. On January 05 2012 20:24 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:12 syllogism wrote:
Palmar: do you really believe that "cluttering up the thread" is an issue so far in this game? Do you think it is ever? It's not the amount, but the content that I have a problem with. What I don't like is people discussing trivial things which anyone can take any side on, no matter their alignment. An example on this would be a discussion on how blue roles should act in a normal game, since that simply is just people giving their opinion on something that has no relevance to the game at hand. This is a fair statement. In the context of Palmar scumhunting and providing pressure, this statement wouldn't ring any bells. On January 05 2012 20:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:29 syllogism wrote:
Uh, from my experience you are always active if not useful early on, but I could be mistaken. I assumed your lack of activity was due to not wanting to post here while pretending to be away in Resistance but apparently that's not it. You posted quite a bit after the game was over but kept ignoring this game. Anyway, I'm probably not pushing to lynch you today given how many useless people there are. Also reading steamship made me a bit more open to the idea that we can both be town due to the fact Zona quite clearly RNGs teams rather than just pretends to like other hosts. Reading steamship should also have been a perfect example of a game where I don't post or simply troll during the opening hours to you. I find it very weird that you somehow missed that, despite remembering the game when you need to use it to point out to me that there is a possibility we're both town. You know I don't metagame like that. If I don't post in a game it's simply because I don't want to post, I don't turn off messaging clients or hide from the forum when I don't want to post in a game. It's my problem I'm playing multiple games, so I should be the one at disadvantage from that. I want to see how you're thinking this game. Can you read Dirkzor's filter and tell me what you think about it? You don't need to conclude an alignment, you simply need to tell me what you think. A meta-defense. Meh. No comittments or analysis, asks for syllo's read. On January 05 2012 21:28 Palmar wrote:I was kinda expecting you to ask me something to continue the conversation. I'll just assume you did. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:12 syllogism wrote:
So, hey Palmar, you handsome man.
What do you think about Wiggles' late entry to the game, and the wall of text he posted when he came in? Oh, I'm glad you asked syllogism. Wiggles seems to do this every game, regardless of his alignment, post thoughts on how the game should be played out. However, I don't get the same bad feeling about his posts this time around as I did in mini mafia x, if this is his new scum late entrance, it has much more to it than last time I saw him opening a game as scum. I'm actually leaning town on wiggles this game, his follow-up posts were more useful than what I'd believe scum wiggles would do, compared to what I've come to know him doing as scum. I think he should be one of the last people we lynch today. I agree with removing Dirkzor off the board as a lynch candidate, even if his opening post was kinda weird, his casual pointing out things like "that's an easy way to lurk", seems like a townie, rather than scum. What do you think about Blazinghand? So, there are two ways you can read this: 1) Palmar is town and trying to start conversations. 2) Palmar is scum and picked a topic he'd feel comfortable talking about by uh, literally asking himself a question. This is his first real analysis-- within a few hours of him becoming active. Labeling a couple dudes as town is pretty Palmar-town-ey to do. I've seen him try to scumhunt by confirming townies and process of elimination. I don't know why he's asking about me though; clearly the answer to that question is "Blazinghand is a sexy beast, I stay up late dreaming about him. <3" On January 05 2012 21:49 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:46 Bluelightz wrote:On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote:
So who would you lynch Bluelightz? Right now, since we have no real option I would like to lynch a lurker. Yes, but which lurker, and why? So, let's talk about this for a moment. I think Palmar is actually providing some real pressure on Bluelightz here. This is about 20 hours after Grack first fingered Bluelightz and I jumped on him like a dog on an ass-flavored biscuit. He does this as Bluelightz posts his first of many "hey guys I'm gonna use 20 lines to tell you I have no scumreads" posts. This looks normal to me. I'd ask Bluelightz this in the same situation. Here's where we get to the contentious part of the issue: Bluelightz responds: On January 05 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:49 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 21:46 Bluelightz wrote:On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote:
So who would you lynch Bluelightz? Right now, since we have no real option I would like to lynch a lurker. Yes, but which lurker, and why? At this point, I would wait if xsk starts posting, risk.nuke too. But if they don't i'm all ears for lynching them I would lynch RoL right now because he hasn't posted anything when I searched for RoL post's in the thread I haven't found any post's by him A typical bad response from either a newbie town or a newbie scum. What would you do in this situation? He's hedging, but nominally answers your questions, but provides a reason that sounds like an excuse. He's very hesitant. I know what I would do. I'd pressure him more. I'd ask him "why not X player, why not Y player" and so on. I'd say "Is that your only reason?" and "you really believe in lynch all lurkers?" and "of the active players, who is the scummiest?" and "why so uncertain?" I'd berate him HARD for such a hedging response. I'd be all over him. I think most people would. Now, maybe Palmar thought this was an acceptable response, right? No, Palmar thought this was a crappy response. So Palmar decided to continue to talk to BL. On January 05 2012 22:24 Palmar wrote:
So consider this scenario.
You are now a day-vigilante, if you kill a townie, you will lose the game for town immediately, so you have to shoot scum, everything is on the line. You HAVE to hit scum with the information you have now.
Would you shoot RoL? This question asks: "Are you sure?" And it does it in a roundabout, generally crappy way. This is not a good way to up the ante on an opponent. Not at all. The question isn't "can Palmar provide some sort of justification for this" because I guarantee you 100% he CAN. He's Palmar, he can justify anything. The question is, "would a town player use this as a follow-up to Bluelight's hedging?" I don't think so. I feel like this is a bad way to increase pressure. I feel like it's weird. It doesn't seem like something you'd do if you really wanted to lay on the hurt. On the other hand, I'm not sure why scum Palmar would do this either. This is just... well, dumb. Palmar has some interaction with Syllogism calling him dumb again, and we get this: On January 06 2012 00:55 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:30 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 00:24 Palmar wrote:
In addition, Neither risk.nuke nor RoL have posted anything in the game yet. What makes you think RoL is more likely to be scum than risk.nuke? I think RoL is more scum because he didnt post anything before now and risk.nuke "promised"more content but, if he didnt fullfill the promise I would consider that he is scum also. Alright, so at gunpoint, your highest possibility of flipping scum is RoL, based on the fact that he has not posted. That's very... interesting. You have little enough faith in your actual reads that you would risk a game to kill off someone who you have nothing to determine his alignment on. This is pretty indirect and noncommittal for an FoS, which is basically what it is. On January 06 2012 01:12 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 01:07 Bluelightz wrote:
Okay Palmar, I'm about to sleep.So, ask me what you want to ask now :3 Well, I'm not sure what I should be asking you, apparently you're happy with fencesitting through the lynch, throwing your vote randomly against some lurker. Your entire scumhunting process is "This guy has not posted, so he must be scum". And I have a problem with that. Don't let me keep you up, there's still another day. You better come up with something better tomorrow, even if it's only a measurement of your neck. There's the Palmar we know :3
OK SO
Right here I'm gonna stop and go through Wiggles' filter up to this point, because right after this he accuses Palmar. I'm doing this because we should know what Wiggles was up to before he comes out swinging.
Wiggles before he comes at Palmar
+ Show Spoiler +So wiggles is silent at first, then he comes out swinging with a big post. I'm gonna break it down for y'all right here. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Hey guys, I was sick last night, so I didn't bother posting. I took some Dristan and went to bed and feel better now, though, so let's get started. First thing's first, I want to address a couple of posts that I saw as non-optimal play, and something we should be aware of.
Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 23:40 Zephirdd wrote:
hi, checking in.
It's stupid to discuss angel/demon lynching, although it is better to have the AoD lynched first we can't just magically detect them. Scum is scum regardless of A/D alignment.
Sage and Seer should not claim unless they have 2/3 scum nailed down that can be instantly lynched; Just make sure to hide breadcrumbs so we believe your claim should that occur.
...day1 is always boring. Just so you know, you should never believe an investigative claim because someone bread-crumbed it. There's no reason to believe it because of bread-crumbs, because there's no proof that they actually did what they bread-crumbed. Breadcrumbs are only useful when a player flips, because you know what role they actually are, and then you know that any breadcrumbs are likely to be sound. If you want a recent example of breadcrumbs killing the town, go read Mini Mafia X, where Wherebugsgo wrote jk three times in a post then claimed jailkeeper, and town believed him. The only person I think can legitimately breadcrumb and use that to support their claim in this game is the demonhunter, and only if they end up killing a complete innocent, or else it could be the acolyte. Also keep in mind that crumbs should be made before the corresponding day-post. Basic Breadcrumb info. Not a perfectly accurate representation of WBG's claim, which was substantially more nuanced than that, and was actually somewhat transparent given what he claimed his night actions were, but yeah breadcrumbs don't support claims they cover flips. This is a true statement and is something that needed to be cleared up. Contrast Palmar's post which says the same thing, but 12 hours later. This basic info is a null read as opposed to a "wtf" read because it needed to be said. After it's been said, it's been said. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote:] Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 03:02 Blazinghand wrote:
Don't go lynching anyone but Bluelightz if you think he's a legit valid scum. It doesn't matter whether he's an angel or a demon or what. In fact, given that he was staggeringly bad in Student mafia (though he WAS a replacement) it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless.
I think we should lynch whoever is the scummiest. If Bluelightz feels scummy to you, put together a case on him and cast your vote like a man. If you think he's probably scummy, and that he'll contribute poorly (as he did in Student mafia), put your money where your mouth is. I can respect that.
This is bad. Killing a useless townie is almost never worth it. A useless townie is still a townie, and they still provide us with a vote and count towards our win condition. It's always better to lynch scum, not lynch someone because he could be scum but it doesn't matter anyways because if he's town he's useless. In fact, I was leaning town on you at the beginning of the game, but now I think I'm going to have to re-evaluate that somewhat after your recent "case" on Bluelightz. Being bad doesn't make someone scum, so it seems weird that you'd try to attack him for being bad. There's been a lot of talk in the thread so far (though granted, most of it is based on mechanics), so who do you think is scummy? You don't make a case for why bluelightz is scum, just for why he hasn't done anything productive yet. Here Wiggles goes after me. I think his case is shitty, not because any fact he says is untrue, but because his conclusions don't match his assumptions. Or he just didn't read my posts. I call him out for this later, and will address this in more detail when we reach it in his filter. The rest of what Wiggles say is obvious and semi-obvious but correct strategy info that hasn't been covered yet. No read. So overall I don't think this post says anything about Wiggles other than that he's writing stuff. So, moving on from his first post: On January 05 2012 07:29 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
What I was talking about there, was this portion of the quoted post: "it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless."
Living useless townies are better than dead useless townies, especially when we mislynch them. When I read that, I thought you were implying that you would be fine lynching him, even if he flipped town, because he's useless. That also implies you aren't sure of your read, or that you're scummy, because it's covering for the potentiality that he flips town and tries to defend against it preemptively.
Feel free to keep the pressure on him, though, and force him to contribute. I'm not saying unvote him, I just wanted to make a point that lynching greens because they're useless isn't generally beneficial for town. The same thing ties in with voting for inactives because they're inactive, especially if you read them as green, which is part of the discussion on Lynch all Lurkers. Wiggles and I are arguing about my case vs BL. Here he makes some dumb arguments based on not understanding me. No read. On January 05 2012 07:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 07:31 Blazinghand wrote:
There's also a way for greens to be anti-town, you know-- "non-contributing" can actually be worse then "useless" because it provides cover for reds to hide. Look, if I think a guy is anti-town I'm gonna try to lynch him. If he flips green, then so be it. If I could lynch a red guy instead I would gladly do that, but I really don't know until i see the color of his blood, do I?
Bluelightz deserves the case I have against him and deserves my vote. And if he fails to contribute and there are no other scum reads, and all he's doing is stopping by every now and then to say "brb" and generally confuse our blues, then he also deserves to die. Greens can be anti-town, but if you read them as green, you don't lynch them. If they're non-contributing, then you pressure them to contribute, like you're trying to do by voting Bluelightz. Then they should be forced to do something, and give you information from which to get a better read. We're in agreement about that. However, you have to do this with multiple players, because you still have to separate the greens from whatever scum might be hiding among them. In your case, you didn't sound like you really thought that he was scum, just that he was not contributing. That might be what's throwing me off about you, as in my experience, if someone wants to pressure someone to contribute, they just vote them, and ask them to contribute, not make a case and call them maybe scum maybe town and then say we should kill them either way. I'll help pressure, but I'm not going to vote him now, as he claims he went to bed two hours ago. If he's not back and posting by tonight, I'll vote him, until he gives us something. More Mr. Wiggles being dumb. I think he just misreads all my posts. He makes a commitment here though, which is something that Palmar didn't.
So that's all the posts Mr. Wiggles made before his accusation against Palmar.
That's where the gamestate was when Wiggles decided it was time to come at Palmar. We have a few questions to formulate based on this: Does Palmar seem scummy to you? How about Wiggles? The other question to formulate:
Is Wiggles' case legitimate?
Let's take a look!
Mr. Wiggles' Opening Statement
+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Hi guys.
First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured.
First off, this is a bunch of BS. Bluelightz is playing like dick and at that moment had contributed nothing of value. That's not super relevant to the actual accusation though. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Alright, Wiggles. Let's see what you got. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:For example, take this post: Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote:
@Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching " people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical.
So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum.
So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch.
##Vote: Palmar So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town.
This is a fairly well-thought-out case, and somewhat coincides with my own observations. However, before I pass judgement, I'm gonna take a look and Palmar's initial response to this case.
Palmar's Defense
+ Show Spoiler +Palmar's defense comes in two parts: Meta and his interaction with Bluelightz. On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote:So, Wiggles is wrong, but he's also wrong in a way that makes him scum. He's being intentionally and maliciously thick. Remember, despite the picture Wiggles wants to paint, I've posted a ton in the thread already. Wiggles is not a bad player, so he knows that none of the things he posted have anything to do with my alignment. What we need to look at is how and why he is wrong. This is loooong. But please read it very carefully, some of the most important bits are after the break. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Hi guys. First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured. So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Look at this. For someone who has played with me extensively in the past, he should know by now that I hate the "create plans" and "discuss if we want to lynch lurkers" phase of the game, so most of the time I ignore it and really start posting once I think there's something to discuss. In addition, aside from XLIV where I tunneled as part of a strategy (I tunneled just to see how town would respond), Please show me an example of a game where I tunneled on day one. I dare you to go and find a proper tunnel from me on day one that isn't XLIV. I have a feeling you're not going to be able to. I usually just read the thread, talk to people, and then at some point I make a decision. Usually with less than 24 hours to go. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:For example, take this post: On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote:
@Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching " people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. Once again, before you think about what Wiggles is doing here, remember that this guy actually knows exactly how I play, yet he's trying to make it look like something else. Of course the post has no solid reads, it's a conversation with syllogism. Something I've found incredibly useful to determine the alignment of people I know very well (mostly sandro and syllo). In addition, English may not be my first language, but did anyone actually read the last sentence the way wiggles did? Cause it sure as hell meant I'm willing to lynch those two, not just people like them. Like, did anyone seriously read this sentence, and get out of it that I'm not fine with lynching Jackal and RoL? Maybe I'm completely off here, but this to me is stretching the point seriously. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes people make an argument for not lynching lurking veterans on day one, and I was saying that I'd have no problem lynching them, ie: lynching Jackal or RoL. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Yes, I want to see where syllo stands. Quibbling and argument. The big thing to note here is that neither of these players have provided links to games that Palmar is in. I don't like Meta, and I don't know these guys well, so I can't really comment on this. I'll have to go read the other games to determine if this fits in Palmar's meta, and I don't even know if Palmar has a consistent meta so i'll have to read even MORE games if I want to find that out. If someone could hook me up with some links to Palmar's filters in other games that would be, well, nice. If not I guess I'll have to go look myself ;_; The second part is the interesting part: On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote:The complete misrepresentation (thanks Ver) of what happened between me and Bluelightz is the most telling thing from Wiggles in the game. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical.
So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum. This is what it comes down to. First off, Wiggles accuses me of changing my mind. That's dumb in the first place, because well... that's how you play this game. (notice, with this post I'm changing my mind on Wiggles). The best part is that Wiggles is actually not reading the thread, which is why his case is so heavily founded on attempting to create some meta on how I'm supposed to play on day 1, and trying to prove I'm not fitting it. I'll show you an example of Wiggles not reading the thread: Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Wiggles is speculating about why I decided to attack Bluelightz Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:00 Palmar wrote:
After Bluelight's latest list of only town/null reads and his wishy-washy-ness with accusing people I might actually just off him. I was kinda leaning maybe noob-town on him, but I don't like his last few posts.
But there is no need to speculate, I said exactly what the deal was. I asked Bluelightz a simple question (who would you lynch?) and he failed to produce an answer other than "a lurker". After which I pressured him to answer using increasingly harsh methods. Here's more: Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). This is awesome, when you want to create a huge-ass case as scum, at least have the decency to read the posts of the person you're accusing, that way someone might buy it. (clickable) On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote:
So who would you lynch Bluelightz? I want to establish this, I did ask Bluelightz who he wanted to lynch, then I asked him again, to get him to clarify a target, after he failed again I created a scenario to force him to actually give me an answer. Remember, the scenario, is essentially just "who do you think has the highest chance of flipping scum right now?", which should be exactly the same question as "who would you lynch?". This is important because for some reason Wiggles is attempting to make it look like a bad thing people are saying who they would lynch? I have no idea how that makes sense. And what has the fact that other people answered the question got to do with me? I mean, let's ignore for a moment the fact that people telling us who they think are scum is usually a good idea for town, and just focus on the fact that apparently I am scummy for something other people did. That's just plain wrong. You can never deduce anything about anyone's alignment from other people's actions. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: Clicky!And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch. No you are, because you cannot possibly be this bad. ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles Palmar points out some SERIOUS flaws in Wiggles' case. However, he still has some serious issues going on-- even though Palmar didn't pull the dayvig situation straight out of his ass, he still used it instead of better pressure moves. His issue here wasn't really lack of pressure, it was lack of REAL pressure, or helpful pressure. ._.
So what do you think of all this, Blazinghand?
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar.
All that being said, I think there's something up with Palmar. I don't know why he's acting so weird, and it gives me the heebie jeebies.
Palmar comes off as scummy. I'm not taking into account his contributions after the Wiggles case, nor am I taking into account Wiggles' contributions after the initial response to Palmar's defense-- if Palmar is scum, it should be clear from his actions before Wiggles began putting together his tunnel. Also, most of that stuff has happened WHILE I was writing this post. It's kind of a long post.
I don't like his read on risk.nuke; I don't like the FASHION in which he pressure Bluelightz-- that is to say, ineffectively, noncommittally, and generally unhelpfully; and I don't like the defense of said pressure.
The one thing I'll say about his actions post-Wiggles-Accusation (besides his initial defense) since there's a lot of WIFOM rolling around based on whether or not he'll be more aggressive, etc-- is that I don't understand why he changed his vote to Erandorr.
I really don't.
And that's the reason I'm voting Palmar instead of Erandorr at the moment. I GET IT that Erandorr looks scummy. *I* think he looks scummy. But Palmar himself admits that given that he's town, he's horribly surprised that Wiggles would tunnel him like this. He even said "There's no way you're this bad" or something along those lines.
It makes no sense. None at all. The fact that it came right after my comprehensive case on Erandorr doesn't mean anything either-- maybe he was legitimately convinced, but he could have been looking for another wagon to hop on.
So why the sudden change, Palmar? Have you no explanation for me? You were so sure of Mr. Wiggles!
*shakes head*
##Vote Palmar
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EPT
