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I'm not fighting feminism at all, I'm pretty feminist myself. I simply think that the movement should be looked as what it is: a desire to change the feminine role in society. It simply goes beyond good and evil, and beyond the idea of equality.
It's very difficult to apply "equality" to rats and pidgeons, because they are two different species. It is also difficult to apply "equality" in our society, as it is a very "black and white" concept. Who has a better life? A supposedly passive and weak being or the so-called master who is bound to defend and feed him? Different folks, different answers.
What we want is the redifinition of roles who fit our values better.
Also, Wegandi, you don't seem to understand the point we are adressing. Re-read the previous page.
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On December 22 2011 05:29 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 05:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On December 22 2011 05:07 Wegandi wrote:On December 22 2011 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote:Yeah, she is reaching. This is similar to radical feminists frowning on Princess-Disney movies because it sets young girls up with the mentality that they need a prince to save her so she can live a proper life accompanied by a handsome young male. In a sense, they have a point, but it is not as damning as they make it. That video is pretty bad too and sounds like contemporary bullshit of trying too hard and reading too much into the lyrics (especially about Mariah Carey, all her songs are fucking like that, rofl). The things you should know about feminism are these three key points: - Women are not paid equal wages as men for the same job
- Women are still trapped within gender-roles and expectations
- Mother-child unit are still presumed in many countries
Women are getting paid more than men in many areas today. Again, I ask, where are all the Feminists arguing to get paid less? If by trapped you mean they are born by nature with certain characteristics with advantages and disadvantages that accompany...Well, I don't think you are going to win that fight with 'Mother' Nature :p. (Not sure what this has to do with Feminism in the first place....oh right, todays Feminism has nothing to do with the Feminism most of us probably think of) Again, another area trying to fight against nature. This is why many argue that Egalitarianism is a Revolt Against Nature. You ain't going to win that battle. The world ain't equal, and if it were it would be a damn dull place that I think many people would find themselves shooting themselves in the head. It's one thing to pursue an end to discrimination, it is entirely another to want discrimination to continue instead though, in your favor. Feminists ain't meritocratists I can ensure you. Where are men getting paid less than women. You must be confused unless the gender has a specific utility to the job. http://www.unpac.ca/economy/wagegap3.htmlHere are some stats and examples of jobs where women are paid 70.4% (could be more now) to the men's dollar. If by trapped you mean they are born by nature with certain characteristics with advantages and disadvantages that accompany...Well, I don't think you are going to win that fight with 'Mother' Nature :p. (Not sure what this has to do with Feminism in the first place....oh right, todays Feminism has nothing to do with the Feminism most of us probably think of) No, feminism has a lot to do with what people think of, they just take it on peg too far. I mean trapped by the ideas they are often obliged to take care of the kids, be the homemaker and are pressured by the expectancy of the gender divide in work. You think everyone has equal opportunity to work and become an independent breadwinner, but you are sorely mistaken even in Westernized countries. This is why many argue that Egalitarianism is a Revolt Against Nature. You ain't going to win that battle. The world ain't equal, and if it were it would be a damn dull place that I think many people would find themselves shooting themselves in the head. It's one thing to pursue an end to discrimination, it is entirely another to want discrimination to continue instead though, in your favor. Feminists ain't meritocratists I can ensure you What's it like being completely delusional? Do you say the same thing about homosexuals wanting equal rights? I don't group people. Homosexuals have no special rights, nor do any other group. There is only individual rights, and that is very much an ideal predicated on the equal liberties of one to another. If you are talking about Marriage, I do not support State involvement whatsoever. It should be a personal, religious, and contractual matter. A Church should not be compelled against their will to accept a homosexual marriage, nor should the State prevent two parties to coming to a contractual agreement for all the things we associate with the legal entity Marriage (Next of Kin, PoA, Shared Bank Accounts, etc.).
you just said the church's will is to be discriminatory and that there is nothing wrong with that.
But that isn't what Feminism is about. It isn't about Suffrage, or Equality of Law (liberty). It's about stupid cultural shit about an egalitarian society where there should be an equal number of males and females and of pay in every industry and every sector regardless of the INDIVIDUALS interests, wants, needs, and desires. It's a totalitarian movement.
that is not what feminism is about. at all. ever. in any way. why do you think this and where did you get that from?
This is why you see places like Iceland banning the individual woman's choice to pursue a job stripping, or of porn / prostitution. Further, when the evidence points to them getting paid more on average than their male counterparts in a great deal many areas (which is increasing every year), you hear not a PEEP about that women should be getting paid less and should be equal with their male counterparts.
no evidence anywhere points out that women are getting paid more overall. no one thinks everyone should be getting paid the same and that employment should be 50/50 we believe that everyone should be viewed without prejudice.
You are under some false impression from waydays of Susan B. Anthony and Suffrage movement that Feminism is about equality of liberty/Law. It used to be. Hasn't been the case since the 1950s/60s.
yes thats exactly what its still about.
Perhaps you should take your egalitarian nightmare and go become a borg. Everyone is equal in the Borg. There is no individual. There is the collective and they are all the same. Let me know how long you find yourself living in that environment before you go insane (not to mention the stupendous amount of violence and force you would need to compel and make people behave, believe, and act in such a manner to create such a society). Human beings are not equal. We are all born with INDIVIDUAL characteristics completely unique to ourselves. Why are you so biased against uniqueness? Why are you so fascinated by a totalitarian egalitarian doctrine? By nature we are not egalitarian, therefore to fight against nature requires violence, force, and compulsion. Human beings are not a borg.
no one said that we want everyone to be equal pay and equal jobs again. Just have our individual characteristics evaluated without bias based on our gender.
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On December 22 2011 05:36 Kukaracha wrote:
I'm not fighting feminism at all, I'm pretty feminist myself. I simply think that the movement should be looked as what it is: a desire to change the feminine role in society. It simply goes beyond good and evil, and beyond the idea of equality.
It's very difficult to apply "equality" to rats and pidgeons, because they are two different species. It is also difficult to apply "equality" in our society, as it is a very "black and white" concept. Who has a better life? A supposedly passive and weak being or the so-called master who is bound to defend and feed him? Different folks, different answers.
What we want is the redifinition of roles who fit our values better.
Also, Wegandi, you don't seem to understand the point we are adressing. Re-read the previous page.
You, sir, are enlightened! Yay!!!
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On December 22 2011 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote:Yeah, she is reaching. This is similar to radical feminists frowning on Princess-Disney movies because it sets young girls up with the mentality that they need a prince to save her so she can live a proper life accompanied by a handsome young male. In a sense, they have a point, but it is not as damning as they make it. That video is pretty bad too and sounds like contemporary bullshit of trying too hard and reading too much into the lyrics (especially about Mariah Carey, all her songs are fucking like that, rofl). The things you should know about feminism are these three key points: - Women are not paid equal wages as men for the same job
- Women are still trapped within gender-roles and expectations
- Mother-child unit are still presumed in many countries
The studies that show women are paid less than men are seriously flawed, and lack any significant data outside of Gender, Pay, and Position/education. They don't typically account for experience, if the person asked for a raise, how many overtime hours the person works, how long they've been with the same company, etc. There isn't even an attempt at taking all realitically vital details into account, it's just:
Man. Worked 80 hours this week. Earns $10 per hour. Earned $800.
Woman. Worked 40 hours this week. Earns $10 per hour. Earned $400.
The results are published like this:
Man. Job X. Earns $800 per week.
Woman. Job X. Earns $400 per week.
"This is unequal, the man earned twice as much as the woman"
Show me an ungendered person, and I'll show you someone who doesn't have a gender-role or expectation.
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On December 22 2011 04:32 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 04:01 tehemperorer wrote:On December 22 2011 03:48 ranshaked wrote:On December 22 2011 03:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I wouldn't paint feminism with this broad of a brush. Feminism is about equality, some "extreme" feminists hijack it into shit like this, but don't lump it all together.
I am, and we should all be feminists. Personally, I feel that we've reached equality, and if we continue, then it'll end up with men on the other end of the stick. I can't find a job as a bartender at most places because i'm not a pretty girl for instance. That's not equal! We're very far from equal dude. Your feeling is definitely not close to actuality, just look up any statistic dealing with this. You can choose, say, pay rate for men and women given the same job title, length of time it takes for women to get promotion vs. men... number of women in upper echelons of government compared to lower levels of government... http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.htmlReally? You must be stuck in the 1950s. Further, the unemployment rate for men is much higher than it is for women. Is there going to be a ... Dudeism movement? Payment should not be either equal, or based on a persons gender, but on a persons productivity & merit. Why should a woman who outputs half the work (hypothetical) get paid the same as her male co-worker just because she is a woman? Equality of Law is the only equality that is logical, moral, and adheres to principles of liberty. Honestly if it was about equality then why do Feminists in Sweden want to ban women who choose to strip & prostitute? That's not equality -- that's totalitarianism. It seems the Feminist movement has turned into a dictatorial sort of fascistic set of ideals. If you think Feminism today has anything to do with Susan B. Anthony and Suffrage, you are sorely mistaken.
Don't pretend that it's not better to be a male than a female in most, if not all, places in the world. That is essentially what you are arguing.
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On December 22 2011 05:54 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote:Yeah, she is reaching. This is similar to radical feminists frowning on Princess-Disney movies because it sets young girls up with the mentality that they need a prince to save her so she can live a proper life accompanied by a handsome young male. In a sense, they have a point, but it is not as damning as they make it. That video is pretty bad too and sounds like contemporary bullshit of trying too hard and reading too much into the lyrics (especially about Mariah Carey, all her songs are fucking like that, rofl). The things you should know about feminism are these three key points: - Women are not paid equal wages as men for the same job
- Women are still trapped within gender-roles and expectations
- Mother-child unit are still presumed in many countries
The studies that show women are paid less than men are seriously flawed, and lack any significant data outside of Gender, Pay, and Position/education. They don't typically account for experience, if the person asked for a raise, how many overtime hours the person works, how long they've been with the same company, etc. There isn't even an attempt at taking all realitically vital details into account, it's just: Man. Worked 80 hours this week. Earns $10 per hour. Earned $800. Woman. Worked 40 hours this week. Earns $10 per hour. Earned $400. The results are published like this: Man. Job X. Earns $800 per week. Woman. Job X. Earns $400 per week. "This is unequal, the man earned twice as much as the woman" Show me an ungendered person, and I'll show you someone who doesn't have a gender-role or expectation.
No, you can't. But the comparative stats are by age, thus experience, in-part, is accounted for.
You can't really discredit the Census of Canada. Everything else you're naming doesn't have that much of an effect nationally.
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My biggest annoyance regarding feminism is that there are men who if you interview them will agree with every single major point of it, yet they still refuse to call themselves feminist because the term has been demonized so much. It's such a lack of courage. It's like in the USA, where people stopped calling themselves liberals and now refer to themselves as progressives, because of constant conservative attack ads and talk radio using liberal as synonym for radical, subversive, elitist etc.
I mean, you can say things like "I generally distrust all -isms, I prefer to make up my own mind" and it might seem like you're oh-so-independent, but well, the facts and arguments for feminism are available if you want to look them up. See for yourself whether you're a feminist or an anti-feminist, but don't weasel out of it by painting an equality movement as somehow uncouth and extreme, just because you're afraid of taking a stand.
Also, there are different kinds of feminism, different historical movements etc. And like in all groups, some of them are complete morons, but that doesn't invalidate any of their ideas per se.
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On December 22 2011 03:48 ranshaked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 03:46 Zorkmid wrote:
I wouldn't paint feminism with this broad of a brush. Feminism is about equality, some "extreme" feminists hijack it into shit like this, but don't lump it all together.
I am, and we should all be feminists. Personally, I feel that we've reached equality, and if we continue, then it'll end up with men on the other end of the stick. I can't find a job as a bartender at most places because i'm not a pretty girl for instance. That's not equal!
wow. "We've reached equality." Are you kidding? The most clear thing to look at is the wages which is what most people care about most. Look at wages. No, it's not because men are better or something like that. Don't make something up.
And do you seriously think feminists think that is equal (about the bartender job)? Do you seriously think they want women to have better opportunities to get jobs than men? Well, news flash - they don't. And you're shooting yourself in the knee here because it sounds like you think feminists want it the way you describe it when in fact a girl is getting employed because she is pretty. Do feminists think that's right? That, because it's a woman she should get that job? No.
By the way, I got really happy when I read Tyler's post. It's nice to see someone (a big shot, if you will :p) in the e-sports community aware of the fact that gender roles exist and are powerful indeed.
I'm not some extremist who thinks all men should die but I atleast want equality amongst men and women.
By the way - another person said "I am, and we should all be feminists". I agree with this completely and would like to ask the rest of you here; what is the reason you are not feminist (if you're not)? Why? Is it because it's considered gay to be a feminist where you live? Is it because you're scared of telling people what you think?
Sorry for my incorrect english btw.
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She embodies everything bad and wrong about extreme feminists, real feminists shun people like that and it's people like her that makes the job of real feminists extremely difficult.
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If you study gender history and cultural constructions of gender, you would likely come to the conclusion that while songs like that Mariah Carey one are not the death sentence for women that the video wants you to believe it is, it is a problem. Our society creates and enforces gender archetypes at every turn, and while militant feminism can be extreme (and sometimes even misguided), without people looking to break down these cultural gendered paradigms there won't be any progress made.
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This channel is a joke imo.It goes as far as to over analyze PPFG.
I think the AmazingAtheist did a clip about her channel,and talks to great extend why he thinks it is a joke aswell.
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Canada11201 Posts
On December 22 2011 06:35 Count9 wrote:
She embodies everything bad and wrong about extreme feminists, real feminists shun people like that and it's people like her that makes the job of real feminists extremely difficult.
I think she's had better videos, but this particular video is stretching it quite far. Then again, maybe the better video clips that I'm thinking of is the Nostalgia Chick who touches on these topics from time to time.
I think beyond job opportunity equality it is worth looking at how gender is portrayed in pop culture. Just the same as I think it is valid to critically look at how ethnicity is portrayed- the black side-kick is almost guaranteed to sacrifice himself for the white lead amongst other things. (And rarely lead in a generic action film unless his name is Will Smith.) There are some interesting tropes and over-used stereotypes and woman often only function as the love interest with little motivation outside of that. But this particular video seems to overstretch the evidence that lay before it.
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I mean, you can say things like "I generally distrust all -isms, I prefer to make up my own mind" and it might seem like you're oh-so-independent, but well, the facts and arguments for feminism are available if you want to look them up. See for yourself whether you're a feminist or an anti-feminist, but don't weasel out of it by painting an equality movement as somehow uncouth and extreme, just because you're afraid of taking a stand.
Sorry, but there isn't a standard set of rules for feminism. Before I took a course on Feminism I was alright with calling myself a feminist, but now I realise it really doesn't mean anything. Ironically, what you're thinking of is probably 'liberal feminism' which is honestly a pretty weak form of the cause and I don't personally identify with it. So if I say "I'm feminist" and people assume I'm a liberal feminist, I've misled them.
In literature we define feminism as basically anything that challenges gender norms and politics. In the 'discipline' of feminism (if you really want to call a value a discipline), it comes to mean a variety of things to all different people based on their personal perspective of what is enough and what allows them to still interact with their culture. Liberal feminism is basically people with so-so values that basically everyone has anyway and they don't want to rock the boat at all but maybe they're ok with saying it's wrong that men and women get paid differently for the same jobs, but they don't want to question if it's ok or not that media portrays women and men in very consistent roles even though that is honestly a big part of why men and women get different pay for the same jobs. So basically what I'm saying is liberal feminists suck, but that's what the generic word 'feminist' usually means. People who are really afraid of being seen as 'radical' even though radical feminism is a specific movement that lasted about 4 years a few decades ago and wasn't really very radical at all.
The word feminist is like the word metagame, is what I'm saying. It's meaningless.
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On December 22 2011 03:45 HackBenjamin wrote:
I tend to dislike most things ending with "ists".
Imagine if there was a zerg unit called "Feminisk". Doesn't do any real damage, it just makes noise to annoy you.
Dude I just fell out of my chair. Nicely done. 
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I am strongly for equality which we have not reached in North America yet. However when you start to rename manholes because the term is sexist I believe the feminists are shooting themselves in the foot. It's unfortunate that the crazy ones get the largest platforms =/
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On December 22 2011 05:22 Liquid`Tyler wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 22 2011 04:43 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 03:55 Liquid`Tyler wrote:yeah this is a really really bad way to learn about feminism. like in most things, there are a lot of people with a really low understanding:enthusiasm ratio in the feminism movement On December 22 2011 03:54 corumjhaelen wrote:On December 22 2011 03:42 ranshaked wrote:
Of course they are! Most girls want dolls, while boys want toy guns. Quit trying to break a standard.
That's something I strongly disagree with. yeah me too. contrived gender roles are a serious problem that limit options and sometimes force people to act in a way that doesn't make them the happiest. it starts with shit like toys assigned for only one gender On a great deal of areas I agree that an individual should pursue their interests and that those around them should support them insofar as it doesn't do great bodily or mental harm to them (gentle persuasion out of say...doing meth would be ideal), however, to say that gender roles are contrived is to dismiss nature. Men and women are not built either physically or mentally, the same. There is a physiological and biological reason that Men and Women generally have different tastes in a wide ranging amount of activities and interests. Further, many things require different attributes to perform well. You aren't going to see many male ballet dancers for instance because men lack both the finesse and dexterity of their female counterparts (sure, there are exceptions...), and you won't find many females out there jack hammering away at cement or other strenuous physical work. You cannot fight against Nature and win. Sorry that biological and physiological realities constrict people down certain paths (you can however surely go against the grain if you want, but not sure you'll find much success or happiness). First, you don't know the difference between gender and sex. Look it up before you continue posting in a thread about feminism. Now to your response, you seem to be supposing absolute equality. Equality in every possible way is not the goal. Equal opportunity and equal reward based on performance are closer to the goal. While gender roles are not completely arbitrary, they are still significantly arbitrary. When the differences in the sexes of children have been studied, we've learned that there's more variation within the sexes (difference between one male and another male, or one female and another female) than there is between the sexes (difference between one male and one female). So if you take two people, blind to their sex, and do some personality tests and observe extremely different results, it isn't very much more likely that they're different sexes than they're the same sex. The sexes are mostly overlapping. The difference between male and female is much smaller than the difference between a boy on one extreme and a boy on the other extreme. Gender roles fuck that up. They're very black and white (non-overlapping) and they're very psychologically powerful. So when we study the difference in the sexes with people who have been affected by gender roles, we get way different results. People don't behave how they naturally would. They repress some things and exaggerate or fake other things. Their interests are forced by what the world says is okay or not okay for their sex to do, despite what they're good at or not good at. So the point is that everyone is okay with the extent that nature limits our abilities because we know those limits are actually really small. Gender roles are overwhelmingly contrived and all that shit should probably go.
You never cease to amaze me with your intelligence, articulation, and powers of reasoning on such a wide variety of topics. Agree whole heartedley.
Edit: proper spoiler tags.
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I don't know, Elizabeth Cady Stanton was pretty cool.
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EPT
