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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On December 01 2011 18:15 FaZe wrote: Starcraft is our golf. Oh please. Starcraft is our sitting around the table with friends and playing cards. Golf is more popular now than it was a generation ago. Unless by "our", you mean us video game nerds, and not the current generation. | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:07 Lightwip wrote: I see what you're trying to say. There seems to be quite the "For the glory of eSports!" attitude among the SC2 community. Yes, I love those guys who mistake eSports for SC2. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On December 01 2011 11:58 Swede wrote: I argued with him using that point because it demonstrates his inconsistent application of the criteria for what makes a sport. It wasn't a question of relevance or irrelevance, it was a question of inconsistency. An argument rife with inconsistencies isn't an argument at all, and it makes no sense to pretend that it is and then argue with it anyway. Maybe my original post wasn't as clear with my intentions as it could have been, but I certainly don't think your interpretation was at all reasonable. To be honest I think you were just looking for a way to post your 'numbers don't make a game legitimate' spiel without it being off topic, and I gave you the in that you needed. Either way, whatever. Molest me not with your imprudent excuses. Philosophy 101: Attacking someone's weak points in order to disprove their stronger/more-interesting points does not disprove their stronger/more-interesting points. Yes, the OP is inconsistent. It's a rant. That doesn't mean that we as posters can't have a meaningful discussion inspired by it. It doesn't mean we have to degrade ourselves to trivial discussion. | ||
520
United States2822 Posts
On December 01 2011 02:18 Kralic wrote: That is probably the best question/statement in this blog. A lot of people are too worried about getting on a team and being pro, instead of just playing the game for fun. About 75% of the people who play Starcraft 2 do not post on TeamLiquid or /r/starcraft or any site of the like. These are the casual gamers who play the game for fun. They're not posting at all, or if they are they're probably posting on the Battle.Net forums. You won't find most of the casual gamers in a competitive-based community like this. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
edit : there is a problem inherent to what you use a video game for a game of starcraft isn't a simulation because the simulation is the game (aka video games) it's very difficult for anything outside arts to draw interest over a simulation, let alone it beeing a competition to some extent esports can be a competition of simulation, which isn't very interesting however that doesn't mean esports won't ever happen, it prolly will actually, but competition might be very dull and uninteresting edit : .. unless the acts in the game of simulation lead to acts in physical reality edit 2 : so far the only way starcraft interest is linked to reality is through player's fandom, wich isn't exactly the best attention syncer to draw new audiences. | ||
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Leafs
Canada41 Posts
It doesn't mean we have to degrade ourselves to trivial discussion. First day on the Internet? | ||
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RainCoat
Sweden142 Posts
One thing semi-unrelated to the post is why people mesure mainstream success in if it's on TV or not. A TV-centered home is imo long gone. It feels like we just dont yet know it. SC does not need TV to become something great. It's already great in its own way. I think internet will become the new TV in a couple of years when the technically impaired starts getting fewer. Just a couple of years ago it was nerdy to browse and use the internet while today almost a majority of the people that thought internet usage was a meaningless thing update their facebook every other hour. | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
Dumb. Just because other places are terrible we have to be too? | ||
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FaZe
Canada472 Posts
On December 01 2011 23:43 Zorkmid wrote: Oh please. Starcraft is our sitting around the table with friends and playing cards. Golf is more popular now than it was a generation ago. Unless by "our", you mean us video game nerds, and not the current generation. "Oh please", none of my friends are payed hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to play cards around the table. I know golf is more popular now, I'm drawing a parallel to the growth of Starcraft 2. The current generation ARE "video game nerds". I don't know many people who play absolutely no video games. Once the stigma around gaming is desolved, pro gaming is going to hit a whole new level of popularity. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4058 Posts
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On December 02 2011 03:10 FaZe wrote: "Oh please", none of my friends are payed hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to play cards around the table. I know golf is more popular now, I'm drawing a parallel to the growth of Starcraft 2. The current generation ARE "video game nerds". I don't know many people who play absolutely no video games. Once the stigma around gaming is desolved, pro gaming is going to hit a whole new level of popularity. Not really getting your point, I don't get payed hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to play cards either, or Starcraft. (Some card players do though.) I know tons of people that don't play video games anymore, probably 95-99% of the people I know couldn't be characterized as "video game nerds". And I'm a HUGE video game nerd. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
And the tendency to consider video games as a kid's hobby is fading away, as adults gamers represent a bigger and bigger percentage. You simply don't realize that society is entering a new, virtual era. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
On December 02 2011 00:34 Chef wrote: Molest me not with your imprudent excuses. Philosophy 101: Attacking someone's weak points in order to disprove their stronger/more-interesting points does not disprove their stronger/more-interesting points. Yes, the OP is inconsistent. It's a rant. That doesn't mean that we as posters can't have a meaningful discussion inspired by it. It doesn't mean we have to degrade ourselves to trivial discussion. Sigh. I could keep arguing, but I don't want to win that badly. I maintain that my post made perfect sense if interpreted as intended. Maybe I didn't write it well enough for that to be the case, but whatever. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On December 01 2011 12:03 Probulous wrote: I think your basic premise is wrong. Sports entertain because there are people watching wanting to be entertained. Your choice of golf is enlightening. The reason there is money in golf is not because it has a mass audience hungering for amazing feats of skill. It is because the people who play golf are generally middle-aged to older white middle class males with disposable income. Note the sponsors, Tag Heur, Rolex. Not exactly screaming out to your average blue-collar bloke. There is money in golf because of what demographic is draws, not the numbers. How many people who don't play golf actually watch it? It has weird rules and customs that most people just shake their heads at. It is simple enough to get the gist but to really understand you need to play. It is similar for E-Sports, it is just that instead of middle class white guys it is focused on younger nerdier types. Huge surge in the best athletes playing golf instead of more traditional conventional sports. Your post would have been correct 15 years ago. It's dead wrong now. | ||
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FaZe
Canada472 Posts
On December 02 2011 06:05 Zorkmid wrote: Huge surge in the best athletes playing golf instead of more traditional conventional sports. Your post would have been correct 15 years ago. It's dead wrong now. From what I remember, golf was pretty popular 15 years ago. | ||
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peekn
United States1152 Posts
On December 01 2011 02:26 SenorChang wrote: There are lots of things I don't enjoy but I don't make threads about them to belittle them and convince other people that they shouldn't like it either. Hit the nail on the head for me SenorChang. I think that this is pretty much how I felt when reading the post, I mean granted he did warn us in the first sentence "rant incoming". But still not really a fan of the huge hate post, just constant bashing of SC2 and the people who enjoy to watch it really unnessesary. Don't get me wrong I wish that I knew about the BW scene when I was playing, and I really have fallen in love with it through SC2, but we don't need to go about bashing the other games. | ||
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Minus`
United States174 Posts
...Anyway. Personal mini-rant aside, one of FaZe's post seems like an alright place to start, so I'll see if I can put together something coherent about that first. On December 02 2011 03:10 FaZe wrote: "Oh please", none of my friends are payed hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to play cards around the table. I know golf is more popular now, I'm drawing a parallel to the growth of Starcraft 2. The current generation ARE "video game nerds". I don't know many people who play absolutely no video games. Once the stigma around gaming is dissolved, pro gaming is going to hit a whole new level of popularity. It seems entirely fair to assume none of your friends are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to play Starcraft 2, either. I could be wrong and you could know some people, but it still holds true for just about everyone else, and you completely missed his point. You also fell into the trap (which was mentioned in an earlier post) of equating "pro gaming" with "pro SC2", I think. "When the stigma around gaming dissolves" (whatever that means), what exactly does it matter to you if your game isn't the one that the general public embraces? If your local or national news reports on a match-fixing scandal in the CSFL (Collegiate Street Fighter League), do you suddenly give a shit because ESPORTS? Or do you continue not giving a shit, just like you may or may not give even half a shit about what happens within poker or chess now? What I'm asking for, and not just from FaZe, is a clear picture of the end goal for "eSports". Ok, so, we promote the growth of eSports. We do this by going to events (for the games we like), cheering for the players (of the games we like), and we try our hardest to get involved however possible (with the games we like). What happens when pro gaming hits this completely expected whole new level of popularity? And what if it happens, but our game -- most of the people who read this should assume I mean Starcraft 2 -- isn't the game that matters anymore? If GSL and Dreamhack SC2 and MLG SC2 never post bigger numbers than they have to date, but instead something else posts massive numbers and acquires mainstream recognition, do we settle for a "Mission Accomplished" Final Edit? Is money the goal? Is the existence of nerdy superstars in a multi-billion dollar gaming industry validation enough? What about multi-trillion? How many zeros do you need to add to players' salaries before we're watching the news in tears because "we" helped a change happen? Is it influence? Or popularity? Or, are all of those synonymous, and none of them correct, even? Or, did the OP touch on a feasible point that eSports (and sports-sports) are defined by spectacle and watchability? (burn the heretic) The question isn't rhetorical, I really don't know what a victory is supposed to look like in this battle against ???? for eSports. I agree that SC2 lacks the spectacle it needs to be that shining example of eSports incarnate. It wasn't stated explicitly in this OP (but in others), but I agree that the skill floor* for competitive SC2 is too low to consider it a serious contender for bringing eSports to the West. And it's been said before elsewhere, but I agree that without a player that can absolutely demolish every other top player in a fit of dominance that doesn't end until someone unquestionably better comes along, competitive SC2 will absolutely not become a (or "the") mainstream eSport, should the phrase come to mean the same thing as "eSports" plus "mainstream" in the near future. That's what I believe. That is my opinion. And I think the critical flaw in your OP, mmp, was the failure to acknowledge that, following the expansion packs (which real sports do not have), SC2 will not be what it is today. Or, at least, a failure to emphasize that point. Or maybe it's not a flaw at all, and that was intentional. Whatever. Point being, by comparison, the game after the last expansion (no guarantees on what that means) will show something like the difference between vanilla Starcraft and Starcraft 2; a completely different game with several similarities, and several [more] significant changes. Whether or not you already believe that the final, completed game will be something worthy of "eSports" (whatever that means), or whether you agree with mmp that the game/any game is doomed to fail to meet expectations is 100% speculation, regardless. I don't want to write about the "illusion of spectacle"/SC2 identity crisis from the OP...not right now, anyway. Maybe another time. This post is rather long, though, and I haven't decided how I feel either way, seeing as I'm one of those lonely nerds generally seeking validation. "Stop pretending that you're having a good time" was, in my opinion, one of those rant-ish things that, when you're writing something, seems ultimately unimportant, but which internet people will instantly latch on to so that they can disregard the rest of your well-written, heavily opinionated blog post. And then they go "trololololol". Anyway, I actually gave it a 5/5 a while ago, even though I've got mixed feelings about the content. Props for being bold, anyway. Who knows, maybe you'll find something in SC2 (present or future) to excite you, eventually. And maybe I will, too. EDIT: Thanks for reading. *Please note that I did not fucking say skill ceiling. Do not respond to this post (seriously) by talking about the god damned unreachable-but-objectively(?)-lower-than-BW's skill ceiling. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
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Catatonic
United States699 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Cuddle
Sweden1345 Posts
BW is like floorball. | ||
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