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Braavos36363 Posts
If you made this thread a few days ago you would've lumped Haypro in that group. Really, just two transcendent series (Nestea + Mvp) is the difference between inclusion and exclusion in your subjective list of who is good and deserving and who is bad and not. I do not think that is fair.
The bottom line is there are ways for players to become noticed. I can give many examples of this. The ones you listed simply haven't broken out yet. I agree it is difficult, but definitely possible. Naniwa is an example, so is Thorzain, so is Stephano. The players you listed... they do not have a major tournament win between any of them. That is the harsh reality, and honestly there is no way to objectively evaluate their skill level versus the "slumping" players you list except by results. And those results haven't come for those guys yet, so they haven't broken out.
You might argue that TLO or Tyler or Machine or Incontrol (leaving Jinro out of this) haven't won major tournaments either, or have results from a long time ago. This is true, but these guys are members of the two teams (Liquid and EG) who do the best job of sending their players and promoting them even when the results might not be there. These players are relevant and traveling to every major event because of their popularity and because of their team. This is because of various reasons, but their teams clearly believe the results will eventually come. Hayder is a good example of this. It takes time, and in some cases, recovery from other issues.
I feel the examples of players you give that aren't noticed enough isn't very good. These guys don't deserve to be invited because they are not SO much better that their level translates to a better experience for fans. Invite tournaments are 100% justified in not inviting them. As for open tournaments, they just haven't gotten it done. If Gatored won IEM NY, he's a breakout for sure. He already turned a lot of heads by beating TOP 3-0... opportunities are there.
I also feel the examples of players you gave who are slumping are very few. There simply aren't many players like you described, who consistently have bad results and yet continue to go everywhere. In fact I would argue Tyler isn't in that list anymore since DH didn't invite him and he goes through open at MLG.
So ultimately, I don't think this problem you describe exists. If it does, it's only a very small issue with just a few players. The big important tournaments don't invite from the tier of mid/low players who are fan favorites anymore. They invite MC and Nestea and Mvp. They have open brackets. There are opportunities for players to break out, just the ones you want to break out haven't gotten it done yet, or don't have the resources to get them there.
As for smaller events, let them do what they wish. They do it for survival. Would you rather ASUS invite the players in your list, get no viewers, and never run another event? As many have said, maybe TLO wouldn't beat NightEnd. But the play level is close enough on stream that it's not worth inviting NE over TLO. The harsh reality is that it's difficult to get noticed but still possible, and until the difference in play level between Titan or Gatored and TLO is the difference between Leenock and TLO, only then will they get noticed. But then they would get noticed anyway, so it's kind of pointless.
tldr: problem doesn't really exist in the way you describe it, if the "better" players were truly better they'd be noticed
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On November 25 2011 06:05 ScyHigh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 04:31 Shrewmy wrote:
People should only be able to enter tournaments through their own efforts, just have open qualifiers either online or over a long period of time at local areas leading up to a grand final. Popular pros could still get their own time in the spotlight through team leagues, they shouldn't get a free spot just because of EG's massive marketing budget. You could still have invitationals, but that sort of system should be kept out of things like MLG.
Your use of meritocracy is correct in that players like InControl, as much as I love him, really shouldn't be given a free spot at MLG just because he did so well early on in SC2's release. You realise that MLG has no invitational element other than the Korean invites right?
Actually, you're wrong twice.
First of all, all pool players are essentially invites to the next MLG.
Secondly, MLG has run an invite-only online tournament. The finals of that were actually played at the last MLG. Naniwa vs Nestea, you may have heard of that match? =P
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On November 25 2011 06:30 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 06:05 ScyHigh wrote:On November 25 2011 04:31 Shrewmy wrote:
People should only be able to enter tournaments through their own efforts, just have open qualifiers either online or over a long period of time at local areas leading up to a grand final. Popular pros could still get their own time in the spotlight through team leagues, they shouldn't get a free spot just because of EG's massive marketing budget. You could still have invitationals, but that sort of system should be kept out of things like MLG.
Your use of meritocracy is correct in that players like InControl, as much as I love him, really shouldn't be given a free spot at MLG just because he did so well early on in SC2's release. You realise that MLG has no invitational element other than the Korean invites right? Actually, you're wrong twice. First of all, all pool players are essentially invites to the next MLG. Secondly, MLG has run an invite-only online tournament. The finals of that were actually played at the last MLG. Naniwa vs Nestea, you may have heard of that match? =P
not really
the pool players were invited based on previous performances
the problem with mlg format is that it was designed around halo, where every pro team will show up for every single event
because starcraft is an international event, there were many players who'd get high finishes and never come back
inc is frequently cited as a sign of the format being broken, but it wasn't because the format was broken in and of itself, it's because he took 3rd place at the first event of the year, which was enough to guarantee him a seed for a long time. if every single korean pro who got seeded attended every event, inc would have dropped out of pool play very quickly
the problem is less a matter of point decay, but rather the seeding structure being too top heavy, in a scene where players must be very selective about the events they attend
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Braavos36363 Posts
I see the issue with MLG more as a problem of players not being able to afford going to every open bracket. Do we really think that the mouz guys couldn't make groups if they all were sent to every MLG? Some of them would. Hasu, Thorzain, Mana, etc totally would make it into groups. They don't because their team doesn't send them. Part of this is MLG's fault because of the format, but part of it is just how competition is. It has costs, and not everyone can afford them.
There are good, understandable reasons why Liquid can send TLO and Tyler and EG can send Incontrol every time, and why those other guys never go. SC2 has never been about absolute skill level at a given point in time. If you want some guy who is 4/10 over some way more popular guy who is 3/10 on a better team, that just isn't going to happen, ever. And I would argue it should never be the way you want. Personality is important and drives a lot of interest and fans to our game. For 90% of players it's mostly about pure skill level, for a very few (the ones you listed) it's about having more fans than their skill "deserves". But saying a player "deserves" more stream viewers or fans is ridiculous as a concept. Fans are fans because they are fans. They are fans for many reasons.
Thus it's not really a problem. I'd say it's great that some players can not have the best results yet still remain "relevant." If we didn't, we'd be robbing the fans and viewers of a lot of great experiences.
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It's extremely detrimental to the scene when relatively crappy players like TLO, Incontrol, and Tyler, who happen to belong to influential teams with good sponsorship who are able to promote them. Then what happens? The mediocre players become popular because they're heavily promoted, get invited to more tournaments, giving more attention to their teams, getting more sponsorships, and the cycle continues . . . ensuring that a handful of bad players on influential teams keep on popping up in invitationals or get seeded deep in MLG . . . Spots at high stakes tournaments are extremely valuable and it's a shame that they're wasted on players who are less than capable.
This seems prevalent especially in the foreign scene. Koreans leagues are a lot less forgiving. Even if you were once a champion, if you can't keep up, you quickly get phased out of GSL, ensuring that the absolute best players at any given time are the most active.
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On November 25 2011 06:22 halvorg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 05:44 D_K_night wrote:
I have questions regarding tournament format and probably around the terminology as well. And also my own interest in hosting a tourney.
I were to host a mini-tourney...just run by myself and the necessary people(would that be an invitational, then?), and let's say I wanted the following format(prize pool of 3k which comes directly from my own pocket):
- bo3 for X players
- "last boss" who must be defeated - else he takes a chunk of the prize pool (eg. IdrA)
I'm just making an example. I know full well that the amount of money for my tourney might not even be worth IdrA's time. Maybe some other well-known player would be interested in being the "last boss".
But I'm also fearful of backlash, such as:
- if all the money is coming directly from my wallet, I can do whatever the hell I want - but we all know that, this is not true at all. Other people's feelings must be considered or I will suffer the consequences. Anytime real money is involved, the last thing i want is someone finding out where I live, and threatening my family over a sc2 tourney.
- you've inviting A, B, and C. so why are you punishing others by not inviting them?
- why can't you host the tourney in a time-frame that's pleasing to everyone
- what gives you the right to host a tourney? you're just a nobody, leave it to the people who know what they're doing
Just need to put this out there. I want to do this, but it almost feels less risky to keep the prize money low, which also makes the exposure low too. I want this type of format, but I would hate to be shouted down by haters who feel I have no right to do what i want to do. I have no idea how to respond to this, is your impression of the community so bad?
Something has already happened - I don't want to go into specifics and will not name any names.
But my criticism of an event was met with such seething anger that my real name was revealed on these very forums and it was made very clear to me that I'm just a nobody and "not a member of this community" despite me having paid for the event and quite frankly I listed all the ways that would have made the event even better.
This soured me so much that I completely stayed away from SC2 entirely for a few months and quite frankly sickened me that someone would go above and expose me, find out where I live, etc.
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as a player below the pro mark i love to see tournaments with qualifiers/open brackets
it makes me think: i could be there
however, i do still enjoy the elite invitationals for amazing players being forced to play each other.
I used to always wish for nestea vs mvp in the gsl, but they would always lose to someone else before they met.
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On November 25 2011 06:28 Hot_Bid wrote:
If you made this thread a few days ago you would've lumped Haypro in that group.
And somehow one 2-1 win against NesTea negates all that? He's STILL in that group.
You said the other players haven't won tournaments... but neither have half of the players who always get invited either.
He makes a very valid point about the scene. We are definitely holding back talent with "top" team dominance, too many invite tournaments and brackets that are overly favourable to seeded players (such as MLG).
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On November 25 2011 06:28 Hot_Bid wrote:
If you made this thread a few days ago you would've lumped Haypro in that group. Really, just two transcendent series (Nestea + Mvp) is the difference between inclusion and exclusion in your subjective list of who is good and deserving and who is bad and not. I do not think that is fair.
The bottom line is there are ways for players to become noticed. I can give many examples of this. The ones you listed simply haven't broken out yet. I agree it is difficult, but definitely possible. Naniwa is an example, so is Thorzain, so is Stephano. The players you listed... they do not have a major tournament win between any of them. That is the harsh reality, and honestly there is no way to objectively evaluate their skill level versus the "slumping" players you list except by results. And those results haven't come for those guys yet, so they haven't broken out.
You might argue that TLO or Tyler or Machine or Incontrol (leaving Jinro out of this) haven't won major tournaments either, or have results from a long time ago. This is true, but these guys are members of the two teams (Liquid and EG) who do the best job of sending their players and promoting them even when the results might not be there. These players are relevant and traveling to every major event because of their popularity and because of their team. This is because of various reasons, but their teams clearly believe the results will eventually come. Hayder is a good example of this. It takes time, and in some cases, recovery from other issues.
I feel the examples of players you give that aren't noticed enough isn't very good. These guys don't deserve to be invited because they are not SO much better that their level translates to a better experience for fans. Invite tournaments are 100% justified in not inviting them. As for open tournaments, they just haven't gotten it done. If Gatored won IEM NY, he's a breakout for sure. He already turned a lot of heads by beating TOP 3-0... opportunities are there.
I also feel the examples of players you gave who are slumping are very few. There simply aren't many players like you described, who consistently have bad results and yet continue to go everywhere. In fact I would argue Tyler isn't in that list anymore since DH didn't invite him and he goes through open at MLG.
So ultimately, I don't think this problem you describe exists. If it does, it's only a very small issue with just a few players. The big important tournaments don't invite from the tier of mid/low players who are fan favorites anymore. They invite MC and Nestea and Mvp. They have open brackets. There are opportunities for players to break out, just the ones you want to break out haven't gotten it done yet, or don't have the resources to get them there.
As for smaller events, let them do what they wish. They do it for survival. Would you rather ASUS invite the players in your list, get no viewers, and never run another event? As many have said, maybe TLO wouldn't beat NightEnd. But the play level is close enough on stream that it's not worth inviting NE over TLO. The harsh reality is that it's difficult to get noticed but still possible, and until the difference in play level between Titan or Gatored and TLO is the difference between Leenock and TLO, only then will they get noticed. But then they would get noticed anyway, so it's kind of pointless.
tldr: problem doesn't really exist in the way you describe it, if the "better" players were truly better they'd be noticed
Hot_Bid, I have a question regarding a past post "Elephant in the Room" that you created.
Do you still believe that SC2 is still a farce?
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I agree  If they're so good, they should have to fight their way in actual competition, vs other players, rather than compete by popularity or such!
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On November 25 2011 06:28 Hot_Bid wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If you made this thread a few days ago you would've lumped Haypro in that group. Really, just two transcendent series (Nestea + Mvp) is the difference between inclusion and exclusion in your subjective list of who is good and deserving and who is bad and not. I do not think that is fair.
The bottom line is there are ways for players to become noticed. I can give many examples of this. The ones you listed simply haven't broken out yet. I agree it is difficult, but definitely possible. Naniwa is an example, so is Thorzain, so is Stephano. The players you listed... they do not have a major tournament win between any of them. That is the harsh reality, and honestly there is no way to objectively evaluate their skill level versus the "slumping" players you list except by results. And those results haven't come for those guys yet, so they haven't broken out.
You might argue that TLO or Tyler or Machine or Incontrol (leaving Jinro out of this) haven't won major tournaments either, or have results from a long time ago. This is true, but these guys are members of the two teams (Liquid and EG) who do the best job of sending their players and promoting them even when the results might not be there. These players are relevant and traveling to every major event because of their popularity and because of their team. This is because of various reasons, but their teams clearly believe the results will eventually come. Hayder is a good example of this. It takes time, and in some cases, recovery from other issues.
I feel the examples of players you give that aren't noticed enough isn't very good. These guys don't deserve to be invited because they are not SO much better that their level translates to a better experience for fans. Invite tournaments are 100% justified in not inviting them. As for open tournaments, they just haven't gotten it done. If Gatored won IEM NY, he's a breakout for sure. He already turned a lot of heads by beating TOP 3-0... opportunities are there.
I also feel the examples of players you gave who are slumping are very few. There simply aren't many players like you described, who consistently have bad results and yet continue to go everywhere. In fact I would argue Tyler isn't in that list anymore since DH didn't invite him and he goes through open at MLG.
So ultimately, I don't think this problem you describe exists. If it does, it's only a very small issue with just a few players. The big important tournaments don't invite from the tier of mid/low players who are fan favorites anymore. They invite MC and Nestea and Mvp. They have open brackets. There are opportunities for players to break out, just the ones you want to break out haven't gotten it done yet, or don't have the resources to get them there.
As for smaller events, let them do what they wish. They do it for survival. Would you rather ASUS invite the players in your list, get no viewers, and never run another event? As many have said, maybe TLO wouldn't beat NightEnd. But the play level is close enough on stream that it's not worth inviting NE over TLO. The harsh reality is that it's difficult to get noticed but still possible, and until the difference in play level between Titan or Gatored and TLO is the difference between Leenock and TLO, only then will they get noticed. But then they would get noticed anyway, so it's kind of pointless.
tldr: problem doesn't really exist in the way you describe it, if the "better" players were truly better they'd be noticed
Thanks for taking the time to write a developed answer, you provide an interesting PoV since you are from one of the teams.
Afaik, Gatored has most likely about 6 months to break out if
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287598
is correct.
After, he may consider doing something else or drop in quality while there are players who "struggle" since right after the Beta.
What I don't like it's that everything he did until now, except for personal gratification, passion, a little amount of money and our viewing pleasure (because his games were awesome) hasn't really payed.
And since we talk about a career...
Mlg? Went far, all of his own.
Beating strong opponents, convincingly.
Iem? Same.
But will he be in another event without having to rely all on his own once again despite his strong performances?
What if, instead of being on GosuGamers he would have been on Team Mavivam, one of the most prestigious sc2 teams with millions of fans everywhere?
I'm not sure about what would have happened.
I swear that I'm not Gatored's mother.
Life isn't fair and Sc2 pro level is a business strictly speaking, I get it.
But it makes me rage that if a player wants to get a damned invite he has to win at least 20000$ straight on.
7 first places in minor tournaments aren't worth of real considerations.
An example to spark some rage since touching popular players apparently seems forbidden?
Results speaking, I don't see a lot of difference between Goody and WhiteRa.
Both have beaten koreans, both have their own trademark playstyle and both aren't exactly "bulletproof" in tournaments.
One however keep collecting invites, the other will eventually get one if his colleague cannot partecipate.
I don't want to bash tournaments or force them to change.
Eliminating invitationals it's impossible for various reasons (you can't force top koreans to qualify while in different timezones/GSL training etc), and sadly Idra seems needed everywhere to get some viewers.
But what about widening the open tournaments' spots?
Let's say about 50/50.
It's not like I want to forbid tournaments to these famous players. It's not like they cannot earn their spot, otherwise why are they playing professionally.
Would it ruin the experience for everyone to see an Osho vs Genius instead of Machine vs Genius?
Titan has already proven that he can compete against Huk, for tell you one...
But again, a single victory can't prove someone's worth.
+ Show Spoiler +The same applies for Haypro: I never joined the banjo fantrain and all that jazz
However unless Titan will WIN (because a third place won't be enough) Dreamhack he will get ignored by main events.
Mine can be a small issue regarding few exceptions, but dammit if they are evident.
Of course those players' teams keep believing in them like it should be and even more.
It's heartwarming, I'm not joking.
Not many business companies have that much of dedication to their employees.
But I think that if those players are in a struggle and they ARE, deep inside, champions, they will get back in shape regardless of their invites.
In the meantime someone new can come and show who they are.
tldr is widen the open seeds in tournaments and let some people prove their worth, it can't be anything but positive.
It won't work in a single tournament, but on the long run we will reap good players.
Thanks for the answers, despite my actual opinions is awesome to see a team do so much for its players.
MLG pools are even another thing, but I hope they will fix them next season so it should be that ridiculous situation anymore.
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Oh, and what about this:
"King from the Shadows" tournament!
16 minor players selected according to their tlpd profile, equal race pool and good maps.
In all honesty, would you watch it?
What if it was a mix between famous teams' minor players and lesser known players with good tlpd results, instead?
Out of curiosity.
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Yay Hot Bid reitierating everything I said but better.
<3
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I completely agree with you, i often get pretty mad when i see the invites for some tourneys, shoutcraft 3 is a good example .
But on the other hand, i understand that tournament organizer invite have to get the people that the fans want to watch the most, so they have more viewers on their streams, which results in them getting more money etc.
So yea, its meh but its not so easy to find a good way inbetween i guess.
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I agree with the OP. It's true that there are ways for lesser known players to break out under invitational formats, but it's much less efficient.
1) The process of getting established/"discredited" is slower.
2) Talented up and coming players might be discouraged.
Hot_Bid brings up a good point about teams being able to afford sending players to travel, and I don't know what could be done about that.
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there is a hilariously pathetic reaction by a lot of "fans" of this game in this thread
Random Fan: We want to watch Destiny, Incontrol and Tyler cause we know who they are, so we won't tune in otherwise
The problem with this thinking is that none of these players are any good by comparison, someone mentioned ostojiy getting an invite to blizzcon and doing nothing, sure that's true, but he obliterated Destiny at MLG, he's a top GM, has shown commitment and can't get signed to a top team, yet Destiny gets signed cause he's obnoxious on his stream and gamers seem to like that, so he gets 5000 viewers a night
Personality is important, no doubt about it but when it comes down to it, if you want this game to grow and be popular(on a scale outside what we currently have) you need to teach the good players to be personalities, and not have the personalities become the main players, cause otherwise we'll never be able to match Korea
Edit: spelling fail
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On November 25 2011 06:57 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2011 06:28 Hot_Bid wrote:
If you made this thread a few days ago you would've lumped Haypro in that group. Really, just two transcendent series (Nestea + Mvp) is the difference between inclusion and exclusion in your subjective list of who is good and deserving and who is bad and not. I do not think that is fair.
The bottom line is there are ways for players to become noticed. I can give many examples of this. The ones you listed simply haven't broken out yet. I agree it is difficult, but definitely possible. Naniwa is an example, so is Thorzain, so is Stephano. The players you listed... they do not have a major tournament win between any of them. That is the harsh reality, and honestly there is no way to objectively evaluate their skill level versus the "slumping" players you list except by results. And those results haven't come for those guys yet, so they haven't broken out.
You might argue that TLO or Tyler or Machine or Incontrol (leaving Jinro out of this) haven't won major tournaments either, or have results from a long time ago. This is true, but these guys are members of the two teams (Liquid and EG) who do the best job of sending their players and promoting them even when the results might not be there. These players are relevant and traveling to every major event because of their popularity and because of their team. This is because of various reasons, but their teams clearly believe the results will eventually come. Hayder is a good example of this. It takes time, and in some cases, recovery from other issues.
I feel the examples of players you give that aren't noticed enough isn't very good. These guys don't deserve to be invited because they are not SO much better that their level translates to a better experience for fans. Invite tournaments are 100% justified in not inviting them. As for open tournaments, they just haven't gotten it done. If Gatored won IEM NY, he's a breakout for sure. He already turned a lot of heads by beating TOP 3-0... opportunities are there.
I also feel the examples of players you gave who are slumping are very few. There simply aren't many players like you described, who consistently have bad results and yet continue to go everywhere. In fact I would argue Tyler isn't in that list anymore since DH didn't invite him and he goes through open at MLG.
So ultimately, I don't think this problem you describe exists. If it does, it's only a very small issue with just a few players. The big important tournaments don't invite from the tier of mid/low players who are fan favorites anymore. They invite MC and Nestea and Mvp. They have open brackets. There are opportunities for players to break out, just the ones you want to break out haven't gotten it done yet, or don't have the resources to get them there.
As for smaller events, let them do what they wish. They do it for survival. Would you rather ASUS invite the players in your list, get no viewers, and never run another event? As many have said, maybe TLO wouldn't beat NightEnd. But the play level is close enough on stream that it's not worth inviting NE over TLO. The harsh reality is that it's difficult to get noticed but still possible, and until the difference in play level between Titan or Gatored and TLO is the difference between Leenock and TLO, only then will they get noticed. But then they would get noticed anyway, so it's kind of pointless.
tldr: problem doesn't really exist in the way you describe it, if the "better" players were truly better they'd be noticed Hot_Bid, I have a question regarding a past post "Elephant in the Room" that you created. Do you still believe that SC2 is still a farce?
that wasn't hot_bid's post.
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I dunno
I can't say I enjoyed watching high masters players trying to cheese pros all day long today
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Thank you for your input Hotbid, it's nice to see an educated opinion being expressed in a reasonable manner on this site. Those LR threads are ruin my faith in this community sometimes and a well thought out forum discussion helps bring it back =P
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Invitationals are more like exhibition matches, not necessarily a tournament.
Though I agree tournaments > invitationals. I think that invitationals often make for more fun matches.
Also note, that tournaments are a lot bigger, and that people who hold invitational probably don't have the number or infrastructure to hold the tournament.
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EPT
