EPTTournament meritocracy: more opens, less invites - Page 6
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fcgog
United Kingdom876 Posts
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j0ker
275 Posts
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raid3n
United States58 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On November 25 2011 06:39 Hot_Bid wrote:For 90% of players it's mostly about pure skill level, for a very few (the ones you listed) it's about having more fans than their skill "deserves". But saying a player "deserves" more stream viewers or fans is ridiculous as a concept. Fans are fans because they are fans. They are fans for many reasons. Thus it's not really a problem. I'd say it's great that some players can not have the best results yet still remain "relevant." If we didn't, we'd be robbing the fans and viewers of a lot of great experiences. but one thing about that is that unknown very skilled guy would have so many more fans if he had the chance to get it. the fan favorites will only be fan favorites as long as media and invites lets them | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36390 Posts
On November 25 2011 17:33 MorroW wrote: but one thing about that is that unknown very skilled guy would have so many more fans if he had the chance to get it. the fan favorites will only be fan favorites as long as media and invites lets them I disagree. If someone is unknown and so skilled that they should be more "known" then their skill will shine through somehow. There are many examples of players like this, there are enough open tournaments and non big events to make this happen and get noticed. Its the second part, the personality/story/extra appeal that TLO and Tyler and Incontrol have that a lot of others are lacking in, and that is largely because of effort. These guys put in so much effort while other players don't. Just look at sheer stream hours (plus a whole bunch of other stuff). If someone is unknown and their personality / story is great in addition to their skill and they are still unknown... well then that is entirely their fault. How many pros are doing vlogs like Tyler did? How many organize showmatches themselves? How many make funny videos or do shows or take the initiatives to market themselves? Very few. I think the problem lies more with players and teams, not the audience. I hate to keep bringing back up Liquid and EG but both these teams and their players do so more than other teams and players in terms of marketing themselves and PR, and even Liquid and EG can do a much better job, they are by no means perfect at it. I would argue that mouz, your team, has amazingly skilled players but does not do nearly enough to promote them. I don't think its just management's fault either. Players don't like doing shit other than playing, but sometimes they gotta realize that all the other shit is what gets you invites and fans and popularity. Unless your are Nestea or MVP you have to do lots of other stuff. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On November 25 2011 12:51 Rabbet wrote: The game is too volatile to concentrate on those top players dominating in quarterly/monthly marathon tournaments. So many resources go into putting the spot light on these guys(Idra, Huk, Naniwa for example) and realistically any player can work their way to the top of a single tournament on a good day(Leenock). Where was Leenock's spot light? How could you ever predict or narrate such an outcome? Having a playing field that is possible to analyse is important and it becomes very difficult for viewers to become emotionally attached if results are unpredictable. Right now, who is going to win Dreamhack? Anyone, that's who. Right now I sit through many marathon tournaments that I have no emotional attachment to with the result of either being very excited and happy(Huk winning Orlando) to not even bothering watching the finals because I don't really care for the finalists(Naniwa/Leenock) As a side note, we all know that the preferred winner of MLG Providence would have been Naniwa, right? Because so much effort, drama and story was going on at the time that Leenock winning was essentially letting the air out of a balloon slowly rather than letting it pop(Naniwa winning). The balloon popping would have been fantastic for the foreign SC2 scene, fantastic for the Swedish community etc but this chance was missed and it is because of the format of the competition. Why have a Final National Championship tournament where this type of thing could even happen? You don't see the league's last place team win the Stanley Cup(not saying Leenock is a bad player, just saying he came from the bottom). I saw alot of people who were really happy for Leenock. Just because you didn't watch the final because you didn't care for the players doesn't mean that a huge amount of people don't just want the best player to win. I'm from sweden and i couldn't care less if Naniwa won or not, Leenock was better and that's what counts. | ||
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Alexj
Ukraine440 Posts
Seriously, would it be better if TotalBiscuit didn't spend his own money to host ShoutCraft? Would it be better if ASUS didn't sponsor any tournament? Why is it RAGEWORTHY how people spend their own damn money? I am repeating myself from page 1, but the problem doesn't exist. All of the biggest SC2 leagues have open qualifiers -- MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, IEM, NASL, GSL, WCG. If someone wants to dabble into hosting smaller events, it's their desicion what format to use. We're in the middle of Dreamhack Winter, and look how many unknown people are there. Even better -- they had a chance to play at least 3 series before being eliminated! | ||
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MavivaM
1535 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:15 Alexj wrote: No good deed goes unpunished. If a small organisation tries to do a little tournament, but is not able to hold a big open qualification... will the comunity be thankful for another tournament? No, they will RAGE ABOUT INVITES. Seriously, would it be better if TotalBiscuit didn't spend his own money to host ShoutCraft? Would it be better if ASUS didn't sponsor any tournament? Why is it RAGEWORTHY how people spend their own damn money? I am repeating myself from page 1, but the problem doesn't exist. All of the biggest SC2 leagues have open qualifiers -- MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, IEM, NASL, GSL, WCG. If someone wants to dabble into hosting smaller events, it's their desicion what format to use. We're in the middle of Dreamhack Winter, and look how many unknown people are there. Even better -- they had a chance to play at least 3 series before being eliminated! I am just talking, I already recognised that Shoutcraft had a fuckton of goodies, I never told that ASUS shouldn't do anymore tournaments and never "punished" an event with my really important opinion. I just gave my suggestion and people can comment, like you already did before. The problem doesn't exists? Fine, no need to be angry: it's not like my post is going to change the whole Sc2 history. But if it can provide some considerations, why not? No need to use sarcasm And since we all like DH, at the current moment it looks like some 'unknowns' are still doing perfectly fine, instead of other famous players who were eliminated between yesterday and today. Look what Naama, Happy, Seiplo and Titan did until now. Or what Cloud did despite not coming out of his pool, if you consider him a mid tier player. Guess you are reading my posts like they are mindless bashing, while they are not. I think a Hybrid tournament is best. Those players whose names we know, they are known because they have proven themselves before. If you have both invites and qualifiers, then the proven names won't have to be competing against a lot of players in tournaments/qualifiers that only send a few or only 1st qualifying, and the field will have more chance to show new players more easily. The players who do make it through qualifiers then have a chance to further prove their names against the known names they face. Some form of compromise is probably the way to go. Now THIS would be perfect imo. Edit so I don't have to post another time: it's not that if we widen the open seeds we necessarly cut famous players out. I hope it is clear. | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On November 26 2011 06:30 ThePlayer33 wrote: yeah i think there should be a little more opens and a little less invites. invite koreans is fine though since they cant play in qualifiets You could have qualifiers for Koreans on the Korean server for foreign events. How likely is it that some Korean ladder monster will get an invite to a foreign tournament if he can't go through a qualifier? Heck even for the lesser known or favoured gsl players it's unlikely they'll get an invite. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
IPL is doing a bunch of open qualifiers, and their tournament should be amazing in IPL4. But invitationals are fun to watch too. Dreamhack is a great example of really top pros being invited for some guaranteed awesome games. | ||
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atmuh
United States246 Posts
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Disposition1989
Canada270 Posts
On January 11 2012 21:46 atmuh wrote: can gomtv stop inviting players into code s now please i guarantee if no one told you a foreigner was playing, you'd think it was just korean vs korean. unless youre a pro gamer, i cant imagine anyone knowing the difference | ||
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atmuh
United States246 Posts
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BackSideAttack
1103 Posts
On January 11 2012 21:56 Disposition1989 wrote: i guarantee if no one told you a foreigner was playing, you'd think it was just korean vs korean. unless youre a pro gamer, i cant imagine anyone knowing the difference its not very hard man.. THERE is an obvious skill gap between Koreans and Foreigners, especially since GSL is PREPARATION based. Foreigners, while already lacking mechanically, are not afforded the luxury of an entire Korean pro-team formulating strats for them. Also...part of the fun of watching GSL is getting to the see the emotion of the players. Pretty sure if i looked into a booth i can tell a Foreigner from a Korean. | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
On November 25 2011 18:09 Hot_Bid wrote: + Show Spoiler + I disagree. If someone is unknown and so skilled that they should be more "known" then their skill will shine through somehow. There are many examples of players like this, there are enough open tournaments and non big events to make this happen and get noticed. Its the second part, the personality/story/extra appeal that TLO and Tyler and Incontrol have that a lot of others are lacking in, and that is largely because of effort. These guys put in so much effort while other players don't. Just look at sheer stream hours (plus a whole bunch of other stuff). If someone is unknown and their personality / story is great in addition to their skill and they are still unknown... well then that is entirely their fault. How many pros are doing vlogs like Tyler did? How many organize showmatches themselves? How many make funny videos or do shows or take the initiatives to market themselves? Very few. I think the problem lies more with players and teams, not the audience. I hate to keep bringing back up Liquid and EG but both these teams and their players do so more than other teams and players in terms of marketing themselves and PR, and even Liquid and EG can do a much better job, they are by no means perfect at it. I would argue that mouz, your team, has amazingly skilled players but does not do nearly enough to promote them. I don't think its just management's fault either. Players don't like doing shit other than playing, but sometimes they gotta realize that all the other shit is what gets you invites and fans and popularity. Unless your are Nestea or MVP you have to do lots of other stuff. I agree with what i think is MorroW's sentiment, I would like to see merit win out over mediocrity. But you're 100% right in that it's up to the players teams etc to get the name out there. - edit: spoilering due to strong off topicness of wall of text - + Show Spoiler + I'm reminded of a story from one of the Kiyosaki books (forgot which one, probably rich dad poor dad) where he was being interviewed by a talented journalist / writer who took offense to the idea that he was successful because he was a Best SELLING Author and that she should approach her efforts to become financially successful with the same mindset She held up all her journalistic integrity or whatever as being MORE important than learning how to sell yourself. Whether they know it or not, subconsciously at least the players with the biggest fanbases in SC2 know how to sell themselves. Whether its conducting themselves like stars. Whether its being BM jerks. Whether its being out there loud mouths always talking shit and getting in the headlines for the wrong reasons, the guys with the fanbases put themselves out there so that fans can then choose to be fans. Too many players aren't giving fans the opportunity to be fans. There's so much missed opportunity out there its painful to see. It frustrates me greatly!! A lot of the time it feels like the players aren't trying. Whether that's by choice or because they don't know what to do to get a bigger fanbase, it's blatantly obvious that there's something lacking there for a lot of playeres. And maybe that's just inevitable. I'm on a real big "shit irrelevant sports analogy" kick ever since the probe rush. But look at any major sports team. A lot of players just aren't ones you can gravitate to as a fan. Lots of good players everywhere, but many give boring interviews and don't encourage fans or journalists to seek them out and latch onto them. I feel SC2 might not be any different. | ||
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atmuh
United States246 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:08 BackSideAttack wrote: its not very hard man.. THERE is an obvious skill gap between Koreans and Foreigners, especially since GSL is PREPARATION based. Foreigners, while already lacking mechanically, are not afforded the luxury of an entire Korean pro-team formulating strats for them. Also...part of the fun of watching GSL is getting to the see the emotion of the players. Pretty sure if i looked into a booth i can tell a Foreigner from a Korean. oh is that what he was saying yeah man if you honestly unironically believe that koreans and other dudes are on the same level youve got a bit of a problem | ||
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