EPTA Decent Proposal - Page 28
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kammeyer
United States275 Posts
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jtp118
United States137 Posts
There is an industry because we make it one, people like watching MLG just like some people love watching the football game on monday night and so on. What your saying seems to me like you introduce the idea that no one should enjoy themselves if its not directly productive. Everyone in this world has something they care about whether its esports, football, or flying fucking kites. I am glad you have a life you enjoy and don't believe that this would be for you so does that mean its for no one...? Please shed some light in your thought process other then shit on this and shit on pros. You said it yourself you watch Starcraft, so do I... So does this amazing community... Why not help it grow... He doesn't say sacrifice your life for the good of e-sports.. He says IF you WANT to help, this is how. enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial. i sincerely wasn't trying to troll the thread, but maybe just trying to ask people to step back and be more enthusiastic about areas of life that really matter (which applies to myself as well, perhaps). there is a very strong tendency in esports, especially in 2011, to take all of this way too seriously. again, not to get super-serious or to sound like i'm lecturing, but if you're ever asking yourself "how can i contribute?", you should be thinking of how you can contribute to something that actually matters. yes, everyone needs leisure, everyone needs to relax; i watched mlg for most of this past weekend. but when it comes to using my limited energy/life/time, there are a billion more worthy candidates for my enthusiasm than a small group of corporations and their sponsored players and advertising partners. i'm just asking people to have perspective, and to stop taking a trivial activity so seriously. but since the founding dogma of all internet conversations is that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do, ever, because there is no possible objective standard beyond whatever trivial activity makes you feel good (or, euphemistically, "what you love"), i guess, feel free to ignore this post. | ||
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kammeyer
United States275 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:26 jtp118 wrote: enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial. i sincerely wasn't trying to troll the thread, but maybe just trying to ask people to step back and be more enthusiastic about areas of life that really matter (which applies to myself as well, perhaps). there is a very strong tendency in esports, especially in 2011, to take all of this way too seriously. again, not to get super-serious or to sound like i'm lecturing, but if you're ever asking yourself "how can i contribute?", you should be thinking of how you can contribute to something that actually matters. yes, everyone needs leisure, everyone needs to relax; i watched mlg for most of this past weekend. but when it comes to using my limited energy/life/time, there are a billion more worthy candidates for my enthusiasm than a small group of corporations and their sponsored players and advertising partners. i'm just asking people to have perspective, and to stop taking a trivial activity so seriously. but since the founding dogma of all internet conversations is that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do, ever, because there is no possible objective standard beyond whatever trivial activity makes you feel good (or, euphemistically, "what you love"), i guess, feel free to ignore this post. It's not that it's a founding dogma - you have the rest of the world proving you wrong is the problem. To an outsider of an industry, a lot of the endeavors corporations do are trivial. I don't consider shampoo to be a life changing endeavor yet there are thousands of people (read: employees) who strive to make that product the best it can be and push marketing campaigns to the max to increase market share that do not consider it trivial. If you asked them if they thought their lives' work was trivial, they'd tell you no because they take pride in their work. People are going to be inspired by what they do if they actually enjoy the culture they're in. I've seen Procter and Gamble executives get excited, inspired and passionate about new laundry detergent commercials. And that model applies to a lot of what is seemingly trivial to the public, but not to the people within that business culture and their loyal consumers/followers. It's not that anyone has some unrealistic perspective of a trivial activity, it's that what is trivial to you is not an absolute truth. People are passionate about an industry that is receiving more attention than it has in the past and they want to see it succeed. The best way to help that succeed is passion and inspiration. I just think it's strange that people with your type of point of view bother to type a response to a thread that is asking for the complete opposite reaction and then are surprised to be met with disagreement. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
That said you are starting to sound like a troll. Mixing your messages with "you aren't as good as idra" as some kind of conversation point has me thinking you just want attention. | ||
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DrakanSilva
Chile932 Posts
New ideas, New organizations and new "communities" also need the support from the "faces" of Starcraft 2. Artosis is an example of it. Making it possible for major to go to Korea, Odee from team dignitas believing in KiLLeR, but I have to say that players (That have never stopped playing) don't really understand the eSport market. Organizers like Sundance do, guys like Day9 and JP do, artosis and many others also do understand. But they are limited to the market where they live. What about the REAL chinese market ? the REAL SEA market ? the REAL Latinamerican market ? the sponsors available, the real costs, the real strengths and opportunities, the real weakness and threats. My dream is that eSport become as important as soccer, and not like NFL that's only played in the US. For this to happen the communities needs to expand the market. There are SEA players, Latinamerican players and Chinese players that might never get to be known even if their communities try hard to promote them. I'm from Latinamerica and the work we try to do here to professionalize eSport is really really complicated. Thank god I can speak and write Spanish, Portuguese and English, to promote myself, my website, the players, the nations, the teams and the awesome support from Blizzard by inviting us to the latinamerican invitational and to the blizzcon, but how many of you guys remember to have seated with a latinamerican guy that understood the market and that it's not a player ? (players don't really understand the market, organizers do, community managers do). I hope someday to meet most of you guys, I've met Day9 and JP but they were really wasted because they had lots of work and nobody really had time to sit and talk since most of the time we had together was while having breakfast or lunch. I really liked your post iNcontrol but I just felt that you are supporting the things that already exist and not what can still be created not an "Action plan", just "Actions". I hope not to be flamed nor be misunderstood, I believe that it's a constructive criticism and I hope to open the eyes of foreigners outside of Latinamerica so they can start supporting ANY latinamerican community (I don't care if you support mine or not as long as you support somebody) like a Norwegian user that created some liquipedias about xelnaga'tour and lasl (Name & logo created in a action plan months before nasl went to air.) | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:51 Drakan wrote: Hi there, probably none of you guys know who am I and though I agree with what iNcontrol said, I think that's incomplete. New ideas, New organizations and new "communities" also need the support from the "faces" of Starcraft 2. Artosis is an example of it. Making it possible for major to go to Korea, Odee from team dignitas believing in KiLLeR, but I have to say that players (That have never stopped playing) don't really understand the eSport market. Organizers like Sundance do, guys like Day9 and JP do, artosis and many others also do understand. But they are limited to the market where they live. What about the REAL chinese market ? the REAL SEA market ? the REAL Latinamerican market ? the sponsors available, the real costs, the real strengths and opportunities, the real weakness and threats. My dream is that eSport become as important as soccer, and not like NFL that's only played in the US. For this to happen the communities needs to expand the market. There are SEA players, Latinamerican players and Chinese players that might never get to be known even if their communities try hard to promote them. I'm from Latinamerica and the work we try to do here to professionalize eSport is really really complicated. Thank god I can speak and write Spanish, Portuguese and English, to promote myself, my website, the players, the nations, the teams and the awesome support from Blizzard by inviting us to the latinamerican invitational and to the blizzcon, but how many of you guys remember to have seated with a latinamerican guy that understood the market and that it's not a player ? (players don't really understand the market, organizers do, community managers do). I hope someday to meet most of you guys, I've met Day9 and JP but they were really wasted because they had lots of work and nobody really had time to sit and talk since most of the time we had together was while having breakfast or lunch. I really liked your post iNcontrol but I just felt that you are supporting the things that already exist and not what can still be created not an "Action plan", just "Actions". I hope not to be flamed nor be misunderstood, I believe that it's a constructive criticism and I hope to open the eyes of foreigners outside of Latinamerica so they can start supporting ANY latinamerican community (I don't care if you support mine or not as long as you support somebody) like a Norwegian user that created some liquipedias about xelnaga'tour and lasl (Name & logo created in a action plan months before nasl went to air.) Well I don't see your post as a contrast to mine at all.. I talk about each and every one of us doing what we can to make it better. I don't think you need to criticize me or JP or anyone else for not taking a random special interest in Latin America. We are working within our own communities and our own knowledge base to improve what we can.. why not you do the same? Is there a big LA personality? Is there a community? If so talk to them! Do your part.. if not, make one, find one or do something. Why is it up to Artosis and crew to make it possible for everyone everywhere? They are trying.. but why sit back and complain about how they aren't doing enough when you have the power to pave the way? | ||
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DrakanSilva
Chile932 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:55 iNcontroL wrote: Well I don't see your post as a contrast to mine at all.. I talk about each and every one of us doing what we can to make it better. I don't think you need to criticize me or JP or anyone else for not taking a random special interest in Latin America. We are working within our own communities and our own knowledge base to improve what we can.. why not you do the same? Is there a big LA personality? Is there a community? If so talk to them! Do your part.. if not, make one, find one or do something. Why is it up to Artosis and crew to make it possible for everyone everywhere? They are trying.. but why sit back and complain about how they aren't doing enough when you have the power to pave the way? Mmmm, I'll try to make a point here, Day9, state of the game, select, huk, djwheat, and many others youtube/stream programs have even more fans in Latinamerica than the latinamerican players/programs themselves. And yeah! Of course we are trying to do our part  . We really really are but it's not that easy since there a lots of countries that are really far away and the venues can't be shared, flight tickets are expensive, distances are huge. Thank god the lag ain't such a big issue in SC2 as it is in any other game (Try to play CS, or MvC3 online between latinamerican countries). I understand your point there but why I'm trying to say is that communities should work together and leave apart that idea of "I do it my way, you do it your way". Maybe I'm beeing to harsh on you and I haven't tried enough to get in touch with guys like you or like many others to appear in shows, interviews or programs made for the latinamerican audience. Worldwide SC2 personalities really help to promote eSport in places were the seed is still growing, even if they don't actively/directly support it, and from time to time a little boost wouldn't be bad at all. Maybe I'm thinking too soon about this and maybe the latinamerican communities need to grow bigger and bigger to get noticed. I hope to do it right then but as soon as any other big tournament comes to LA they will have all my support. The SC2 community have something very interesting that other games don't and it's the globalization level it has achieved because players from all over the world can actually play each other without big lag issues. So the community must also try to think in a globalized way (rofl, does globalized exist?). damn i gotta go so I hope to continue this conversation later. I still think that the best chance for SC2 to become bigger than it is is to cooperate the same way that the Koreans decided to start leaving Korea, and maybe, just maybe, the best choice is to have North Americans in LA than Koreans in LA. If someday something like MLG+GSL happens. And for sure, there are many other regions in the world were this kind of stuff could help to boost eSport worldwide making it even a bigger scene for the players, casters, eSport organizations and also the sponsors like Razer that sell their products all over the globe. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:26 jtp118 wrote: enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial. football is trivial too, but people get multi million dollar contracts to throw a ball around a field. there are many other trivial hobbies out there. chess is trivial. so is poker. so is playing in a band. so is writing fiction. so is hitting a baseball. the list goes on and on. people have hobbies they are passionate about and devote their time to them, there is nothing wrong with that. so kindly pls stfu and die in a fire kthxbai User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Kevan
Sweden2303 Posts
I agree with basically everything in the post but I'm not so sure about when esports will be on stadiums, on tv etc. I think it will take a while to get there. I think a big part of it will be about getting a lot of people from future generations into the scene. Being a dreamer is nice but I don't like getting my hopes up too high I guess. Also, reading about that guy who got hired because he improved those Youtube pages makes me think that there should be a place where everyone in the community can offer their work for free(or not). Just a thread or a site where people can post what they could do and some of their work and etc. Would be easier for a player/team/league to get help with their stream page or whatever. But great post and ESPORTS fighting! | ||
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Gusenbauer
Austria19 Posts
Thanks for being awesome! | ||
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sariusly
Sweden13 Posts
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Mazaire
Australia217 Posts
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I am not the only one. | ||
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africanus
14 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:26 jtp118 wrote: enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial. i sincerely wasn't trying to troll the thread, but maybe just trying to ask people to step back and be more enthusiastic about areas of life that really matter (which applies to myself as well, perhaps). there is a very strong tendency in esports, especially in 2011, to take all of this way too seriously. again, not to get super-serious or to sound like i'm lecturing, but if you're ever asking yourself "how can i contribute?", you should be thinking of how you can contribute to something that actually matters. yes, everyone needs leisure, everyone needs to relax; i watched mlg for most of this past weekend. but when it comes to using my limited energy/life/time, there are a billion more worthy candidates for my enthusiasm than a small group of corporations and their sponsored players and advertising partners. i'm just asking people to have perspective, and to stop taking a trivial activity so seriously. but since the founding dogma of all internet conversations is that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do, ever, because there is no possible objective standard beyond whatever trivial activity makes you feel good (or, euphemistically, "what you love"), i guess, feel free to ignore this post. Supporting the growth of SC2 as an esport doesn't mean people can't be active members in their communities in other ways. It isn't a zero sum game where you have to choose one or the other. Gaming brings a lot of joy to people's lives. It's a great way to challenge yourself, meet new people, and be entertained. It is a valuable culture, and I understand why people who love it want to spread it to others. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On November 24 2011 07:20 fishjie wrote: football is trivial too, but people get multi million dollar contracts to throw a ball around a field. there are many other trivial hobbies out there. chess is trivial. so is poker. so is playing in a band. so is writing fiction. so is hitting a baseball. the list goes on and on. people have hobbies they are passionate about and devote their time to them, there is nothing wrong with that. so kindly pls stfu and die in a fire kthxbai You were making a decent point, but then you had to go ruin it by throwing in that last sentence.  | ||
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Shady
Austria115 Posts
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Neast
Canada23 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 24 2011 03:52 Hoodlum wrote: Something meaningful like political action and religious practice.... I don't even want to touch on this. Do you shit on people that also love to watch football or go to football games. Do you shit on the college student who works his ass off and makes extreme sacrifices for the slightest chance to go pro in football? Do you HONESTLY believe that none of these players have a future because they were pro gamers? Incontrol, for example, has a college degree (I believe) as well as many players who currently go to college while doing what they do. There is an industry because we make it one, people like watching MLG just like some people love watching the football game on monday night and so on. What your saying seems to me like you introduce the idea that no one should enjoy themselves if its not directly productive. Everyone in this world has something they care about whether its esports, football, or flying fucking kites. I am glad you have a life you enjoy and don't believe that this would be for you so does that mean its for no one...? Please shed some light in your thought process other then shit on this and shit on pros. You said it yourself you watch Starcraft, so do I... So does this amazing community... Why not help it grow... He doesn't say sacrifice your life for the good of e-sports.. He says IF you WANT to help, this is how. Something meaningful like political action and religious practice.... GAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA omg, i'm going to hurt myself. meaningful .. religion ... *wipes eyes* | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
Get over that hump. You don't need to hide your power level, be proud of eSports. | ||
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jtp118
United States137 Posts
On November 24 2011 04:45 iNcontroL wrote: one of the dumbest mistakes you could make is that the only things that matter are politics and religion. I can give you a hundred anecdotal examples of where people were touched, inspired or made better by events and activities that you would deem "unworthy." the issue is not with those that want to make SC2 bigger and better for themselves and everyone around them but rather with the sad lonely little man who is telling people what they are doing has no value and "real life" is all about politics and religion. you're the one trolling at this point, my friend. "sad lonely little man"? right, that's it! being an otaku for SC is a waste of life, full stop. real life is about responsibility, meaningful action, and hard work; politics, religion, and art were just examples ... obviously i was referring to any sort of activity that makes some sort of meaningful change in the world (teaching, medicine, charity work, etc etc); any career that actually does something, as opposed to playing a video game for corporate sponsors and providing trivial entertainment. the fact that playing a video game can somehow occasionally accidentally inspire someone isn't a counter-argument. this reminds me of the people at the GDC who always feel compelled to throw in something about how video games can "change the world", where, actually, the engineers creating these games could change the world by leaving the video game industry and using their skills to actually do something meaningful. people are going to be inspired by terrible pop music, and touched by relationships and community for absolutely anything; starcraft is not the cause, but an accidental environment where this might occasionally happen ... it does not justify the triviality of esports. i repeat; for anyone reading this thread, instead of getting 'inspired' about spreading the word for SC2, and geeking out with fanboy bull****, get inspired to spread the word for something that actually matters; get out and actually help someone, volunteer somewhere, and stop wasting your time pressing F5 on liquipedia or the TL front page. esports is trivial entertainment, and should not be the focus of your energy/time in any way, shape, or form. | ||
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jtp118
United States137 Posts
On November 25 2011 12:48 Primadog wrote: Pointing out that eSports is trivial benigns the fact that pretty much all we do are trivial, jtp118. Very few jobs or careers or hobbies relates strictly to the survival of our species or ourselves. You'll learn in life, eventually, that it's not about what you do, but how you do things. Day9 and iNcontroL are not respected here because they're good player or caster, but because the attitude they held about their interest. If their work is about a different hobby, be it rowing or crocheting, they'll still be respected and recognized by people of shared interest because they're so into it, so proud of it. Get over that hump. You don't need to hide your power level, be proud of eSports. a hobby is fine ... speaking in messianic quasi-religious terms about the greatness and magical perfect community of your rowing team or crocheting circle is effing ridiculous. asking yourself every day, 'what have i done to spread the word about crocheting? am i doing enough?', might literally be insane. i'm 29, i've learned a fair amount about life; it actually is about what you do. i mean, of course, not everyone is going to have an archetypally meaningful job (i work at a think tank, i'd say it's relatively meaningful, but i'm not changing the world), but my passion in life is not directed toward a trivial hobby. if i'm getting 'inspired' about anything, it's about meaningful activity (and not just in my career). it actually is about what you do. you should not be proud of crocheting for 12 hours a day. you simply should not. you should be mildly embarrassed that your life is so consumed with crocheting. just because someone like Day9 is so "super-gosh-darned enthusiastic!" about everything, that this is 'how' he is super-passionate about BW/SC2, well, this is an objectively trivial thing to be passionate about. Day9 is like an anime roleplaying otaku on Gaia Online who uploads vlogs every day and spends all of his time going to anime conventions, posting about anime; this is what Day9 is. should i get 'inspired' to spread the world about this beautiful activity, anime roleplaying? or isn't this objectively trivial? | ||
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