|
On November 24 2011 00:59 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream. Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up. A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small. My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports". Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble. How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store.
Not sure if you're speaking about an economic bubble or what, but your statements are kind of unclear.
|
This post got fungaled...
|
On November 24 2011 01:42 kammeyer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 00:59 FXOpen wrote:Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream. Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up. A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small. My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports". Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble. How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store. Not sure if you're speaking about an economic bubble or what, but your statements are kind of unclear.
The growth bubble is based on economics... Sorry, I am really tired 
|
Had you said to me in January that a dota championship would give 1 million $ to the winning team and have prize pools deep as top 8, I would had said "where do you get your stuff man, seems like strong shit!". Yea dota is really... oh wait this is about SC2. Yeah this year was good for starcraft!
|
On November 24 2011 01:53 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 01:42 kammeyer wrote:On November 24 2011 00:59 FXOpen wrote:Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream. Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up. A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small. My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports". Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble. How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store. Not sure if you're speaking about an economic bubble or what, but your statements are kind of unclear. The growth bubble is based on economics... Sorry, I am really tired
No worries, yeah, I thought so. I'm not so sure economic bubbles apply to Starcraft 2 in terms of spectating/popularity. I think its validity is more applied to products or shares, not so much opportunities. Many economists believe that most bubbles are caused by inflation and the rise above value so it has no option but to decrease in value to correct the imbalance in the market. More often than not, economic bubbles make the most sense in regards to real estate and the stock market, but get harder to justify in other instances outside of those realms.
Some economists try to apply it to opportunities and they're referred to as artificial situations. I'm just not sure if it applies because of Blizzard's success and brand image in the gaming community.
That's my understanding of economic bubbles based on tulip mania and south sea bubble anyhow.
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
additionally my actual point is we have no way to know how big the bubble goes or where it starts / ends.. it's all speculation. So sitting back going "oh man, 2012 will be the year SC2 reels it in and declines!" is not a helpful attitude. I am not saying sell the barn but I am saying get involved, do something bigger than you did before.. if everyone did that than why the hell do we need to wait for the sky to fall? Can't we make this bigger and better as we work towards it? It isn't like the bubble idea HAS to happen.. SC2's community CAN support itself.. we have that many people / infrastructural interest.
|
On November 24 2011 01:53 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 01:42 kammeyer wrote:On November 24 2011 00:59 FXOpen wrote:Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream. Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up. A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small. My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports". Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble. How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store. Not sure if you're speaking about an economic bubble or what, but your statements are kind of unclear. The growth bubble is based on economics... Sorry, I am really tired
Market corrections are good things, especially in a very unstructured entity such as esports. It helps weed out the PPSL's so that when the time comes we don't have issues like that. Just like a prominent league dying isn't a bad thing if they have a format or payment history that hinders the furthering of esports into a standard.
|
You got a dream... You gotta protect it. People can't do somethin' themselves, they wanna tell you you can't do it. If you want somethin', go get it. Period. FOR ESPORT!
|
iNcontroL, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
I'm currently helping to put together a powerpoint that will be used to convince the fine people at Nestea that SC2 is the place to spend their ad dollars.
Also kicking around the idea of starting a blog aimed at informing ad agency people and their clients that eSports is awesome.
Anyway, wish me luck! It feels great to be (maybe) making a difference.
|
Continueing from where the female caller from ITG yesterday about televising Starcraft - I think she had a very solid point of why Starcraft dosnt need TV and I will extend on that a little bit.
Like she said, whatever channel chooses to broadcast Starcraft in one form of the other, it will always be localized - We dont have any global channels that reach everyone - The internet does. iNcontroL has put forth 2 different versions of how Starcraft could work on TV:
a) As a highlight show, giving a rundown of a tournament showing only important moments.
b) Tournament is televised only, and not streamed on the internet, for the sake of interest in watching it on the TV-channel - I believe InC brought it up as a counter argument to why the already established viewers of Starcraft on the internet, would have interest in watching a highlight-show of something they have already seen on the internet stream.
There are of course varriations to this, but those were the two models that I picked up.
Now, I completely understand why people think its important that we get Starcraft on TV; To bring the joy of E-sport to more people than we are currently reaching through internet streams - However, I really dont think that the traditional media format does justice to how Starcraft is played - We can't have commercial breaks in a 50 minute TvT and we can't plaster Xel'Naga Caverns with commercials (Like how it works in football). To be on TV, I think that too much of what makes watching a match of Starcraft would be lost - What good is it that we are on TV, if what actually reaches the viewer is completely different to watching it on the internet - How much of the format should we sacrifice? And who would watch it then?
Another reason why I think changing our format into something that would fit onto a TV-channel, is that TV-channels are as good as obsolete already anyway! The younger generations are already used to having everything on demand - If they want to watch a show, theres a pretty good chance that they won't sit and wait till it's 8 PM on sunday to watch the new episode of their favorite show - They will simply watch it when they want and have time to through VoD-services like NetFlix for instance. You might say, that quite alot of people won't do this, because they don't want to watch these things on their computer. However, the television in your living room that you probably throw away every 3-4 years to buy a new one, already is very close to being able to show internet streams.
For instance, this Samsung TV already has app-support - You make sure that your TV has internet acess and boom - You're online from your sofa - When Samsung or a different TV-manufacturer start to allow other companies to make Apps for their devices (Apple-model), Internet stream providers such as Twitch, Livestream will rush to make apps that make TV's compatible with their streams, and everything will be available that way.
I say "nay" to changing the way we show Starcraft an E-sports in general, because I think our carrier/format is the future.
|
On November 24 2011 02:37 _MazeR_ wrote:
iNcontroL, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
I'm currently helping to put together a powerpoint that will be used to convince the fine people at Nestea that SC2 is the place to spend their ad dollars.
Also kicking around the idea of starting a blog aimed at informing ad agency people and their clients that eSports is awesome.
Anyway, wish me luck! It feels great to be (maybe) making a difference.
Very cool, man. That's what I like to hear! More companies outside of the eSports realm getting involved and investing money to lead the way for other companies.
|
Great post from a great person !
|
You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
i'm somewhat surprised that i actually agree with this ... try to imagine, if you will, someone who spent all of their energy/enthusiasm promoting major league baseball, contacting mlb advertising sponsors, offering services for teams and their websites, spending all their time posting on forums in ridiculous messianic terms about "the greatness of mlb", "let's get passionate about mlb", etc.
wouldn't you say that this person had a somewhat sad life? a life where energy and enthusiasm are devoted to literally the most trivial activity imaginable? instead of actually doing something important or meaningful (art, political action, religious practice, charity work) ... devoting all of your energy to a "passion for esports!", i.e., helping a few corporations make more money off of a video game? i like playing SC2 occasionally, and i watch most of the major SC2 events, but wtf?
when i watch day9's daily #100, or listen to artosis talking about dropping out of four colleges and playing BW on iCCup all day ... i mean, i hate to sound like everyone's parents, but this is not a complete or fulfilling life. it is a pathetic life. the fact that a handful of these people managed to find enough corporate sponsorships (through GSL, EG, etc.) to eke out a living is nice, i guess, but let's not pretend that there's anything "great" about esports.
edit: and before someone jumps in with, "it's all about relationships!" or "it's about the community!", you realize that just about every human endeavor has a community aspect, right? you don't need esports to have meaningful relationships
|
also, geoff, as long as i have your attention (maybe?); why do you assume that you're a top player who is in a slump? maybe you're just not a top player? you weren't a top player in BW, why would you be one for SC2? obviously you're good enough to be a mid-level grandmaster on the NA server, and that's somewhat of an accomplishment, but i dunno. i know this is a vaguely rude thing to say, but i'm sorry, i can't help but be completely mystified by your statements on the matter.
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
jtp I don't really know where to begin.. you talk about how sad our life is but I somehow doubt you've been to an MLG or any major event. If you have, you'd see the thousands of people traveling across the country and globe to go get 10 seconds of attention from these "sad" people... these sad people who live a comfortable life doing what they love. And it isn't just a few.. it's a bunch of professional players/casters/personalities etc.. all doing what they love. Is everyone guaranteed a living wage and happiness? No, but who is saying they are promised that?
You then go on to ask why I consider myself a top player. Interesting. I don't "assume" anything. By being a GM you are in the top top 1% of all that play. By playing and beating on a regular basis the people that are in the 1% OF the 1% I am a top player. I am not Hero, but I have beaten him and I practice with him as well as others like him.
|
I have loved starcraft for years, but if someone asked me what I did for fun when i wasn't partying it was always:
"I play games, read books, stuff like that you know..... (mumble starcraft)"
Sometime last year it became:
"I watch and play starcraft 2"
To that guy that said what are we supposed to do? say we are nerdy? well.. yeah... you are. what are you fake? Nerdy isnt the word I would choose but I guess its pretty accurate even if it has a negative connotation. If someone calls me nerdy my response usually involves the words "nerd baller".
Now when someone looks over my shoulder in the lab or w/e and is like "are you watching starcraft again?" I'm like "yeah this game is awesome listen to the casters going insane" and hand them an earbud.
Inc is right all the little attitudes add up. One of those guys had some friends over to watch MLG on a projector. Maybe I'm responsible for one more person that will show support for starcraft on television. Maybe that person will be responsible for a few themselves.
EDIT: + Show Spoiler +omg jtp -_- there is an entire industry of wealthy people whos soul job is doing exactly what you described. I am sure they have as happy or sad of a life on average as everyone else. Also you really rank religious practice as something more meaningful then helping ESPORTS!? what is the RL use of religious practice?
|
On November 24 2011 03:15 jtp118 wrote:Show nested quote +You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well. i'm somewhat surprised that i actually agree with this ... try to imagine, if you will, someone who spent all of their energy/enthusiasm promoting major league baseball, contacting mlb advertising sponsors, offering services for teams and their websites, spending all their time posting on forums in ridiculous messianic terms about "the greatness of mlb", "let's get passionate about mlb", etc. wouldn't you say that this person had a somewhat sad life? a life where energy and enthusiasm are devoted to literally the most trivial activity imaginable? instead of actually doing something important or meaningful (art, political action, religious practice, charity work) ... devoting all of your energy to a "passion for esports!", i.e., helping a few corporations make more money off of a video game? i like playing SC2 occasionally, and i watch most of the major SC2 events, but wtf? when i watch day9's daily #100, or listen to artosis talking about dropping out of four colleges and playing BW on iCCup all day ... i mean, i hate to sound like everyone's parents, but this is not a complete or fulfilling life. it is a pathetic life. the fact that a handful of these people managed to find enough corporate sponsorships (through GSL, EG, etc.) to eke out a living is nice, i guess, but let's not pretend that there's anything "great" about esports. edit: and before someone jumps in with, "it's all about relationships!" or "it's about the community!", you realize that just about every human endeavor has a community aspect, right? you don't need esports to have meaningful relationships
I wouldn't say it was a sad life at all because if Starcraft were to take off, it creates careers for people. It employs people who otherwise may not be employed in a culture they enjoy. There is no objective meaning to what makes a fulfilling life and what does not. Some people enjoy playing music their entire life, some people enjoy being ministers, some people enjoy selling Tide laundry detergent.
Each have their own way of helping the community and each way is significant to our lives. If someone spent all their time and energy into MLB, I'd think it was noble because it's passionate. MLB is an entertainment escape for a lot of people. If you speak to some people they'll tout off how much they love the game and the deep impact it has had on their lives (I'm one of these people.) That goes for any activity, including Starcraft. You're taking the game at face value of what it just means to your life which is fine, we all have to look through our own lenses. However, Starcraft 2 has the ability to breed analytical thinkers, keep kids relatively engaged in activities in their teenage years and myriad of other helpful attributes in regards to business/consumers.
It's really not anyone's job to determine what is a good use of someone's time, it's theirs. It'd be on par with you being passionate about charity work for Operation Africa Relief and me coming up to you and explaining that it's a dismal life. That Africa doesn't have capital and not very much potential to become a nation that is recognized in global trade, so why are you so passionate about it? I mean, no one will actually remember your efforts in a few years anyway, so why bother? Your response would be that it means something to you because you feel as if you're helping people and making something of your life.
That's essentially what everyone pushing for eSports thinks they are doing as well.
|
On November 24 2011 03:15 jtp118 wrote:Show nested quote +You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well. i'm somewhat surprised that i actually agree with this ... try to imagine, if you will, someone who spent all of their energy/enthusiasm promoting major league baseball, contacting mlb advertising sponsors, offering services for teams and their websites, spending all their time posting on forums in ridiculous messianic terms about "the greatness of mlb", "let's get passionate about mlb", etc. wouldn't you say that this person had a somewhat sad life? a life where energy and enthusiasm are devoted to literally the most trivial activity imaginable? instead of actually doing something important or meaningful (art, political action, religious practice, charity work) ... devoting all of your energy to a "passion for esports!", i.e., helping a few corporations make more money off of a video game? i like playing SC2 occasionally, and i watch most of the major SC2 events, but wtf? when i watch day9's daily #100, or listen to artosis talking about dropping out of four colleges and playing BW on iCCup all day ... i mean, i hate to sound like everyone's parents, but this is not a complete or fulfilling life. it is a pathetic life. the fact that a handful of these people managed to find enough corporate sponsorships (through GSL, EG, etc.) to eke out a living is nice, i guess, but let's not pretend that there's anything "great" about esports. edit: and before someone jumps in with, "it's all about relationships!" or "it's about the community!", you realize that just about every human endeavor has a community aspect, right? you don't need esports to have meaningful relationships
Something meaningful like political action and religious practice.... I don't even want to touch on this. Do you shit on people that also love to watch football or go to football games. Do you shit on the college student who works his ass off and makes extreme sacrifices for the slightest chance to go pro in football? Do you HONESTLY believe that none of these players have a future because they were pro gamers? Incontrol, for example, has a college degree (I believe) as well as many players who currently go to college while doing what they do. There is an industry because we make it one, people like watching MLG just like some people love watching the football game on monday night and so on. What your saying seems to me like you introduce the idea that no one should enjoy themselves if its not directly productive. Everyone in this world has something they care about whether its esports, football, or flying fucking kites. I am glad you have a life you enjoy and don't believe that this would be for you so does that mean its for no one...?
Please shed some light in your thought process other then shit on this and shit on pros. You said it yourself you watch Starcraft, so do I... So does this amazing community... Why not help it grow... He doesn't say sacrifice your life for the good of e-sports.. He says IF you WANT to help, this is how.
|
On November 24 2011 03:17 jtp118 wrote:
also, geoff, as long as i have your attention (maybe?); why do you assume that you're a top player who is in a slump? maybe you're just not a top player? you weren't a top player in BW, why would you be one for SC2? obviously you're good enough to be a mid-level grandmaster on the NA server, and that's somewhat of an accomplishment, but i dunno. i know this is a vaguely rude thing to say, but i'm sorry, i can't help but be completely mystified by your statements on the matter.
What has that got to do with anything? Why does everyone take the first opportunity to flame inc..
I am going to block you if I can, FOR ESPORTS
|
jtp I don't really know where to begin.. you talk about how sad our life is but I somehow doubt you've been to an MLG or any major event. If you have, you'd see the thousands of people traveling across the country and globe to go get 10 seconds of attention from these "sad" people... these sad people who live a comfortable life doing what they love. And it isn't just a few.. it's a bunch of professional players/casters/personalities etc.. all doing what they love. Is everyone guaranteed a living wage and happiness? No, but who is saying they are promised that?
You then go on to ask why I consider myself a top player. Interesting. I don't "assume" anything. By being a GM you are in the top top 1% of all that play. By playing and beating on a regular basis the people that are in the 1% OF the 1% I am a top player. I am not Hero, but I have beaten him and I practice with him as well as others like him.
i was at MLG DC, albeit only on friday; i was mainly going for halo at that point (though i was becoming somewhat interested in SC2).
thousands of people travel across the world for all sorts of stupid reasons ... again, i feel like an analogy with professional sports will make this clear. if my friend flies to london to watch a tottenham game (which one of my friends actually did, this past weekend), and gets super-excited about meeting one of the players; this is supposed to be an argument that sports/esports is actually meaningful?
and this high-school-graduation-speech nonsense about "doing what you love" ... plenty of people love to read TMZ and Gawker all day. life is not an inspirational speech. sometimes people confuse pleasant, life-consuming addictions to be "doing what you love," especially if they can somehow make some money at it.
not to get too serious, but maybe this is just what happens when a generation is completely unmoored from tradition, virtue, religion, meaning, etc? this excessive all-consuming zeal and passion was once applied to things that actually mattered, and is now funneled entirely into hobbies and trivialities. all of the energy spent on promoting esports could be better spent in some other area of life.
i have a feeling that there aren't too many athletes (electronic or otherwise) who are lying on their deathbed thinking "if only i had devoted more time and energy to promoting esports organizations and their corporate sponsors ..."
* * *
to be clear; you are a top player in the sense of being in the top 0.1% or 0.01%, sure. but i think you know what i meant. getting 22nd three MLGs in a row (and then LBR7 or whatever) means something. machine is a 'top player' in this sense as well, as is demuslim or strifecro ... yet i don't hear any of them talking about how they're just in a slump or will be back in the highest echelon of SC2 any day now. why doesn't EG send machine to homestory cup? why you? you're not in a slump; it's entirely possible that you're just not an absolute top-level player in the sense of huk or idra (and there's no shame in that).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
