EPTA Decent Proposal - Page 25
| Blogs > iNcontroL |
|
BretZ
United States1510 Posts
| ||
|
D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
It has to do with what you've said before on SOTG, how perpetually dissatisfied you are with Protoss and Blizzard for not coming through on Balance. At the last MLG we had Naniwa vs Leenock(PvZ) and think just about everyone was as thrilled as can be. The final epic showdown which coincidentally happened to be foreigner vs Korean, the final deciding match where just about everyone was ready to take sides with something. All the terrans have been defeated, which I predict won't even be addressed at the next SOTG(sigh already about to start as I write this). When I count Destiny, yourself, Tyler, and Artosis, there are no Terran players here...plus the overwhelming sense that no one likes Terran in the group, and no one is maining Terran either. I just want to ask you if you ever predict - for yourself, whether your doom and gloom feelings will change regarding Protoss. Or is SC2 just another Dawn of War, Command & Conquer or those other games which never truly lived up to BW standards. | ||
|
Zorkmid
4410 Posts
| ||
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 23 2011 11:31 CannonFodder wrote: Long time lurker who rarely posts but thought I'd chime in after seeing this on Reddit: like a few posters before me (MountainDew, sharkeyanti, DarkSider, kiHrt) I think you need to make an addendum to your post on WHY the community should share our passions and grow E-sports. You thoroughly request and encourage action but don't do as good a job explaining why; maybe you think this is obvious but to me (skeptical dude) it's not. I care mostly that the community and "scene" can support itself and continue to exist but aside from that, I'm not so sure I'd like to see rampant growth and influx of commercial dollars. One of the main draws and beauty of our community (in my hipster mind) is in it's accessibility. I can watch a stream of my favorite player, watch high quality play 24/7, go to a local event, email with players concerning strategy, etc. without the obstruction and limitations that a larger and more commercial sport would encourage. I no longer go to NFL games because it's so expensive and the experience isn't as fun as it used to be. Not a perfect analogy obviously but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure the positives outweigh the negatives for me, the average SC2 fan, concerning further growth and commercialization of SC2. I can obviously see how the people who make money off SC2 would love it to be 10x as large a scene but ultimately I worry it would be a Faustian bargain, with fans' SC2 experiences suffering in the end. I'm not totally selfish though, I want SC2 to grow to the point where pros and good players can support themselves and be successful playing SC2. I just don't want Coca-Cola replacing Day9 with Joe Buck or Guy Fieri and messing up what we do have going already. TL:DR - Please explain WHY large growth is good for everyone in SC2; players, sponsors, and most importantly the average SC2 fan. Would be kind of odd to explain to you that we've already experienced growth and you LIKE it. We used to not have replays in BW. We used to not have players earning huge salaries and doing commercials that make us laugh... it took growth to get there. Me asking for the community to share their passion for this game with other people to hopefully get more people to share in that joy and then also help benefit everyone else by creating MORE fans and MORE support it only gets better. Do you want smaller MLG's? Do you want less professional players? If so then you were never going to like what I was saying. | ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
The audience at the end of the day is still vastly starcraft players and general gamers (please don't give me anecdotal evidence of others watching, cause it's clear the vast vast majority is) . Nothing wrong with that, there's a shitload of gamers. But people are talking like it's going to spread outside of that. Honestly? Looking at the average progame objectively, i don't see what appeal it has no matter what forced narrative you put on the game in question. It's not like the 'storylines' are THAT interesting and are usually based on something that would seem minor to the average person. And that guy did have somewhat of a point regarding commercialization. If you use BW as an example of it being possible to reach the mainstream, extremely important to note: it was not a for profit venture. Now it's the total opposite. Now which is preferable is an opinion but it obviously makes a huge difference. Seriously eSports nearly always means SC2 as well despite the disclaimer; none of the things really apply to the other games. It almost sounds like a cult the way some people put it, and they always always mean SC2. What about just letting the game prove itself and it will grow on it's on if it's that damn good as people keep saying it is. Despite the fact it's not even complete so who knows. Hard to escape the feeling that no matter what state SC2 was released in, that community people would be pushing it hard like this and getting everyone on a bandwagon; reasons being obvious. Not saying anyone is deliberately misleading, but there's a lot of people who were basically immediately in positions where they had a huge impact on community thought. But their livelihoods depend on the overall message being positive; so now it's 'support esports' and 'spread sc2'.. but it's not like they are going to say the opposite is it, or anything in between. It's like the SC2 casting in general, everything great, amazing, epic. Edit: let me just say, this is also the reason why whenever i watch the game i get a feeling of fakeness, that this is manufactured. It didn't have real growth because people loved the game it had everyone moving to it because there was money in it. | ||
|
kammeyer
United States275 Posts
On November 23 2011 11:31 CannonFodder wrote: Long time lurker who rarely posts but thought I'd chime in after seeing this on Reddit: like a few posters before me (MountainDew, sharkeyanti, DarkSider, kiHrt) I think you need to make an addendum to your post on WHY the community should share our passions and grow E-sports. You thoroughly request and encourage action but don't do as good a job explaining why; maybe you think this is obvious but to me (skeptical dude) it's not. I care mostly that the community and "scene" can support itself and continue to exist but aside from that, I'm not so sure I'd like to see rampant growth and influx of commercial dollars. One of the main draws and beauty of our community (in my hipster mind) is in it's accessibility. I can watch a stream of my favorite player, watch high quality play 24/7, go to a local event, email with players concerning strategy, etc. without the obstruction and limitations that a larger and more commercial sport would encourage. I no longer go to NFL games because it's so expensive and the experience isn't as fun as it used to be. Not a perfect analogy obviously but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure the positives outweigh the negatives for me, the average SC2 fan, concerning further growth and commercialization of SC2. I can obviously see how the people who make money off SC2 would love it to be 10x as large a scene but ultimately I worry it would be a Faustian bargain, with fans' SC2 experiences suffering in the end. I'm not totally selfish though, I want SC2 to grow to the point where pros and good players can support themselves and be successful playing SC2. I just don't want Coca-Cola replacing Day9 with Joe Buck or Guy Fieri and messing up what we do have going already. TL:DR - Please explain WHY large growth is good for everyone in SC2; players, sponsors, and most importantly the average SC2 fan. While I realize I'm not Incontrol, I have a business background and would like to expand a little on it. In the state the U.S. economy is in, especially if you're young - we can use any stimulus helping our market place right now. A new rising industry is almost always going to be great for all participants involved including consumers. An industry that creates careers, encourages affiliations between companies and potentially births a cult-like following that can be compared to sports, pop stars and other cultural phenomenons is great. The idea of commercialization is changing and has changed since the creation of the NFL, MLB and similar sports leagues. You may even consider them being behind as they are stuck dealing with commercials that interrupt game play and the invention of Tivo that consequentially has a negative effect on Nielsen ratings. A lot of marketers currently are acknowledging that mainstream television is a thing of the past. The internet and the idea of being able to stream things when you want them is coming into effect, this is why you see a lot of companies having two way conversations with their consumers. Mass advertisements and commercialization do not work anymore. Consumers simply tune out and don't care. Players: It's great because they're getting more recognition, better audiences, more sponsors and fans. There are not too many negatives for the players other than more pressure to perform. Sponsors: Brand recognition and awareness. If your favorite player pushes a product, the chances of you buying it increases significantly, even more if you feel they have common interests as you. Average SC2 Fan: The way you view Starcraft isn't going to change much, streaming will not be going away any time soon. Participating in events may cost more, but that's to be expected to cover costs of the venue and overhead. Replacing casters is doubtful, Starcraft 2 is a niche industry still - not everyone can do analytical casting. It's not a mainstream sport that has been around for years where you have people understanding the analytical depths it takes while making it interesting (People in our community even struggle with casting and have been interested in the game for years whether SC:BW or SC2). An every day caster for other sports couldn't just walk in and be able to cast it. Tasteless' becoming a caster actually illustrates that point if you know his background and story. TLDR; Think of it as an opportunity for an industry you love to produce better content, bigger tournaments and more exposure all while creating jobs for your fellow SC2 enthusiast. The things that directly effect you in a non-monetary way are more fans to relate with, more (read: intense) rivalries and more players. The best part and bottom line about eSports is it isn't getting rid of any current careers. It's a new market that takes away from no other industries, whereas most industries that have rose in the past decade do in fact take away from other industries to create jobs for people. | ||
|
kammeyer
United States275 Posts
On November 23 2011 11:50 infinity2k9 wrote: Is this even real growth we are seeing or simply maximizing the audience who would always have been interested in it, thanks to better technology? I don't see why the numbers are so surprising/amazing really, especially if you cherry pick something like Blizzcon which is big because it's not just an SC2 tournament. An actual break into the mainstream would be. But it's not that at all. Technology after all is cited as one of the reasons BW took off so well in Korea. And we have no other real competitive RTS to even compare to. The audience at the end of the day is still vastly starcraft players and general gamers (please don't give me anecdotal evidence of others watching, cause it's clear the vast vast majority is) . Nothing wrong with that, there's a shitload of gamers. But people are talking like it's going to spread outside of that. Honestly? Looking at the average progame objectively, i don't see what appeal it has no matter what forced narrative you put on the game in question. It's not like the 'storylines' are THAT interesting and are usually based on something that would seem minor to the average person. And that guy did have somewhat of a point regarding commercialization. If you use BW as an example of it being possible to reach the mainstream, extremely important to note: it was not a for profit venture. Now it's the total opposite. Now which is preferable is an opinion but it obviously makes a huge difference. Seriously eSports nearly always means SC2 as well despite the disclaimer; none of the things really apply to the other games. It almost sounds like a cult the way some people put it, and they always always mean SC2. What about just letting the game prove itself and it will grow on it's on if it's that damn good as people keep saying it is. Despite the fact it's not even complete so who knows. Hard to escape the feeling that no matter what state SC2 was released in, that community people would be pushing it hard like this and getting everyone on a bandwagon; reasons being obvious. Not saying anyone is deliberately misleading, but there's a lot of people who were basically immediately in positions where they had a huge impact on community thought. But their livelihoods depend on the overall message being positive; so now it's 'support esports' and 'spread sc2'.. but it's not like they are going to say the opposite is it, or anything in between. It's like the SC2 casting in general, everything great, amazing, epic. Edit: let me just say, this is also the reason why whenever i watch the game i get a feeling of fakeness, that this is manufactured. It didn't have real growth because people loved the game it had everyone moving to it because there was money in it. I really don't understand your point. In the U.S. 97 percent of teenagers play video games. I can't even comprehend how many people that would be if expanded globally. More than half the U.S adults play video games as well, 60-70% of adults. I understand being a skeptic and questioning the growth, that's fine, but the potential is in fact there. Teenagers dictate a large amount of discretionary income (their parents'), that's why the gaming industry is thriving and has been. The demographic of being a "gamer" extends to nearly everyone in the U.S. - I can't speak globally because I don't study marketing in other countries - but for the U.S. specifically, the gaming community is the greater majority of the population, it isn't a niche to be a gamer any longer. That fact alone opens a large door for Starcraft 2 to become really popular among adults and teenagers whether they're casual gamers or not. Adults that have children not only enjoy games, but enjoy bonding with their children. | ||
|
Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On November 23 2011 11:50 infinity2k9 wrote: Is this even real growth we are seeing or simply maximizing the audience who would always have been interested in it, thanks to better technology? I don't see why the numbers are so surprising/amazing really, especially if you cherry pick something like Blizzcon which is big because it's not just an SC2 tournament. An actual break into the mainstream would be. But it's not that at all. Technology after all is cited as one of the reasons BW took off so well in Korea. And we have no other real competitive RTS to even compare to. The audience at the end of the day is still vastly starcraft players and general gamers (please don't give me anecdotal evidence of others watching, cause it's clear the vast vast majority is) . Nothing wrong with that, there's a shitload of gamers. But people are talking like it's going to spread outside of that. Honestly? Looking at the average progame objectively, i don't see what appeal it has no matter what forced narrative you put on the game in question. It's not like the 'storylines' are THAT interesting and are usually based on something that would seem minor to the average person. And that guy did have somewhat of a point regarding commercialization. If you use BW as an example of it being possible to reach the mainstream, extremely important to note: it was not a for profit venture. Now it's the total opposite. Now which is preferable is an opinion but it obviously makes a huge difference. Seriously eSports nearly always means SC2 as well despite the disclaimer; none of the things really apply to the other games. It almost sounds like a cult the way some people put it, and they always always mean SC2. What about just letting the game prove itself and it will grow on it's on if it's that damn good as people keep saying it is. Despite the fact it's not even complete so who knows. Hard to escape the feeling that no matter what state SC2 was released in, that community people would be pushing it hard like this and getting everyone on a bandwagon; reasons being obvious. Not saying anyone is deliberately misleading, but there's a lot of people who were basically immediately in positions where they had a huge impact on community thought. But their livelihoods depend on the overall message being positive; so now it's 'support esports' and 'spread sc2'.. but it's not like they are going to say the opposite is it, or anything in between. It's like the SC2 casting in general, everything great, amazing, epic. Edit: let me just say, this is also the reason why whenever i watch the game i get a feeling of fakeness, that this is manufactured. It didn't have real growth because people loved the game it had everyone moving to it because there was money in it. thats still growth and there are tons of people who have said "i watch but dont play" thats obviously people who normally wouldnt be interested and the GSL, normally we wouldnt be interested but Tastosis MADE us interested, imagine if it was some caster noone liked, the GSL wouldnt nearly be as big | ||
|
NationInArms
United States1553 Posts
For eSports! | ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
And if you were only interested in the GSL because of Tasteless, well are you interested in the actual game at all or what... seems like a lot of new people around are barely interested in the actual game. | ||
|
kammeyer
United States275 Posts
On November 23 2011 13:01 infinity2k9 wrote: If you think there is tons of potential growth out there then there's not much point arguing, it's an opinion. It's all just speculation if people would like watching the progames or not. But i am of the opinion it's not as massive as people are seemingly suggesting, and it will infact start falling pretty quick. And if you were only interested in the GSL because of Tasteless, well are you interested in the actual game at all or what... seems like a lot of new people around are barely interested in the actual game. Yeah, but there are opinions and speculations with statistical inference backing and then there are "common sense" opinions. The latter being more often incorrect than not. It's not meant to dog on you or anything of that nature, but if you think it has no potential for growth and will fall pretty quick - why are you investing time in it? People don't typically invest time (the greatest commodity a human being has) into a dead end route that has no potential for growth in the future. | ||
|
Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On November 23 2011 13:01 infinity2k9 wrote: If you think there is tons of potential growth out there then there's not much point arguing, it's an opinion. It's all just speculation if people would like watching the progames or not. But i am of the opinion it's not as massive as people are seemingly suggesting, and it will infact start falling pretty quick. And if you were only interested in the GSL because of Tasteless, well are you interested in the actual game at all or what... seems like a lot of new people around are barely interested in the actual game. i dont get how you can say that MLG has been growing bigger and bigger every event blizzcon was PACKED more and more tournaments are popping up with large prizes players are getting better and better the BW pros are preparing to migrate im not saying people are interested in GSL only becuase of Tastosis but if it wasnt for Tastosis not nearly as many people would be interested Tastosis reeled them in and the games made them stay every day i hear about people who say they dont paly the game and only watch it, it is obvious that these people are not the sort of people who would normally be interested in watching a game yet they do | ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
And just for other things you said; Blizzcon is not exclusively an SC2 tournament and big prize money doesn't necessarily help things compared to sponsors giving money to teams for salaries. Of course any company will throw down 50k, which is nothing to them, to put their name on a tournament. This isn't where investment is needed... On November 23 2011 13:05 kammeyer wrote: Yeah, but there are opinions and speculations with statistical inference backing and then there are "common sense" opinions. The latter being more often incorrect than not. It's not meant to dog on you or anything of that nature, but if you think it has no potential for growth and will fall pretty quick - why are you investing time in it? People don't typically invest time (the greatest commodity a human being has) into a dead end route that has no potential for growth in the future. I didn't want to argue about it as i said but your statistics obviously mean fuck all. Just because 70% of whoever has played a game in some period of time doesn't mean they are any more likely to watch/understand SC2. Competitive games have a stigma within gamers let alone with wider society. Then once you get past that it's hardly the easiest game to understand; just look on this forum half of the people can't even see their own obvious mistakes in games. And then even if they do understand it, what if it isn't interesting? It's like a lot of people jumping to the conclusion, i like Starcraft so as long as someone else understands it they will like. I don't invest any time in it except these posts and some games i watch now and then. Just think maybe people need some alternate views before they get carried away on a hype train driven by people who are totally invested in the hype succeeding. | ||
|
Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On November 23 2011 13:24 infinity2k9 wrote: Right now - the game is being actively patched and expansions are going to be released. For all of this bullshit nobody seems to mention the actual game. I think the play will stagnate once it stops unless they are going to deliberate keep changing the game to keep it varied. There's already tons of similar games constantly, how interested do you think these more casual viewers are going to be when they've seen the same shit done hundreds of times before. And no BW pro's are not going to migrate, PL starts on Saturday and it makes no sense that they would unless they are unable to compete. Even inform players who retired are not switching to SC2 (ie: HiyA or Midas, both better than any player who switched before). And just for other things you said; Blizzcon is not exclusively an SC2 tournament and big prize money doesn't necessarily help things compared to sponsors giving money to teams for salaries. Of course any company will throw down 50k, which is nothing to them, to put their name on a tournament. This isn't where investment is needed... the proleague plans to add starcraft 2 its been confirmed that pretty much every BW team is secretly or openly practicing SC2 BW pros went to blizzcon and were confirmed to be amazed at the size of the crowds BW was around for 12 years and noone grew bored of it why would SC2 be any different? | ||
|
Huzzah
United States6 Posts
Thanks Geoff | ||
|
slytown
Korea (South)1411 Posts
| ||
|
Count9
China10928 Posts
| ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Really get a clue, do you and other people just read through articles and pick out words you like? If the growth is as good as you say why would you care if players of an older game switched or not.. but as i said if Midas, HiyA, Tempest are not switching then why would players under contract switch. This is fucking stupid to bring up here though. But your constant bullshit takes so much words to correct because its ALL wrong. | ||
|
kammeyer
United States275 Posts
On November 23 2011 13:24 infinity2k9 wrote: Right now - the game is being actively patched and expansions are going to be released. For all of this bullshit nobody seems to mention the actual game. I think the play will stagnate once it stops unless they are going to deliberate keep changing the game to keep it varied. There's already tons of similar games constantly, how interested do you think these more casual viewers are going to be when they've seen the same shit done hundreds of times before. And no BW pro's are not going to migrate, PL starts on Saturday and it makes no sense that they would unless they are unable to compete. Even inform players who retired are not switching to SC2 (ie: HiyA or Midas, both better than any player who switched before). And just for other things you said; Blizzcon is not exclusively an SC2 tournament and big prize money doesn't necessarily help things compared to sponsors giving money to teams for salaries. Of course any company will throw down 50k, which is nothing to them, to put their name on a tournament. This isn't where investment is needed... I didn't want to argue about it as i said but your statistics obviously mean fuck all. Just because 70% of whoever has played a game in some period of time doesn't mean they are any more likely to watch/understand SC2. Competitive games have a stigma within gamers let alone with wider society. Then once you get past that it's hardly the easiest game to understand; just look on this forum half of the people can't even see their own obvious mistakes in games. And then even if they do understand it, what if it isn't interesting? It's like a lot of people jumping to the conclusion, i like Starcraft so as long as someone else understands it they will like. I don't invest any time in it except these posts and some games i watch now and then. Just think maybe people need some alternate views before they get carried away on a hype train driven by people who are totally invested in the hype succeeding. Lol, those statistics don't mean fuck all in the slightest? I understand why you'd reject them because they completely deteriorate the points you're trying to make about no growth possibilities, but labeling them as null and void, really? 70% of adults is a huge demographic in terms of consumers to market - it's actually larger than most demographics where successful products are sold and it's 97% of teenagers in the U.S. It isn't "played a game in some period of time." It is plays a game consistently at the time of the survey. Competitive games have a stigma within gamers? You realize that stigma is the same within sports fanatics, correct? Every single sport has depths to understanding and analysis. The average person doesn't understand analysis of batting averages in comparison to the rest of players, most casual watchers actually don't even pay attention to it yet MLB generates an insane amount of revenue. You can pick a less popular sport such as bowling or the phenomenon of NASCAR's success (which wasn't popular at all in the beginning, it had a significantly smaller demographic than gaming does.) if that validates it further for you. You ask what if it isn't interesting, which I could see being a problem in some cases. It really depends how you market and present it. Watching cars go around a track on television 300 times doesn't seem interesting, yet it generates more revenue than any other spectator sport in the business. Tide laundry detergent isn't very exciting either, yet they have a huge culture of loyal customers to make a more extreme example. Anyway, the same thoughts can be applied to nearly every hobby in life, it's a scapegoat to be pessimistic about growth models when demographics seem endless. It's why your logic just still isn't making sense. It's not even to insult you, it just logically doesn't deduce much. The facts are 97% (In marketing questionnaire statistics, this is essentially 100% with a standard error of +(-) 3% if more than 1,000 people were surveyed.) of teens play video games and are marketable to, coupled with the amount of adults, just in the United States. That's a pretty small target market in comparison to the global possibilities, which Starcraft II offers. All your arguments don't want to speculate on facts of demographics, growth patterns, revenues or return on investments. It seems your purpose for posting is to be a skeptic, but unfortunately not a logically sound skeptic. Pros have switched over to Starcraft 2. I'm not sure what you consider Boxer, Nestea, MMA and the like are (Why does this even matter? We have tons of great players in the SC2 community even if they were to not play.) Just because every single Brood War progamer didn't move to Starcraft 2 doesn't speak about its validity for growth or stagnancy. Also, no company would just "throw down 50k" to put their name down on a tournament. Do you know how hard it is to solidify a brand name and culture for a company like Redbull (who already has dealt with numerous allegations of legitimacy and health issues.), Nos or Monster? They're endorsing that tournament for what they think is a good investment and a growing industry to increase sales and brand recognition among a growing target market. Companies have a bit more strategic planning than "You know what, let's slap our name on this and endorse this because hell - it could work, right? 50,000 dollars is nothing to us anyway." They risk their brand, they risk their public image if the tournaments flops, they risk the idea that their target market isn't actually watching that tournament and doesn't care about their product. 50,000 dollars in operational revenue is someone's salary in exchange for a one time event. So those companies that sponsor those events, they see their sponsorship opportunity cost as being more productive to their brand image than someone's salary for an entire year. | ||
|
Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On November 23 2011 13:52 infinity2k9 wrote: KeSPA said they would look into the possibility of an SC2 proleague - of course they would they are the official esports body of Korea not the Brood War Association. Nothing has been confirmed about anything unless you think completely anonymous quotes is confirmation. Openly they are blatantly practicing for BW because it's starting on Saturday and is much bigger than SC2 in Korea. Again with confirmed; why would they be amazed when it's not even close to the size of the biggest BW event crowds? They left half-way through the finals so it couldn't have been that great for them. As you people like to point out SC2 is not the same game as BW, SC2 isn't going to strategically evolve for 12 years. Really get a clue, do you and other people just read through articles and pick out words you like? If the growth is as good as you say why would you care if players of an older game switched or not.. but as i said if Midas, HiyA, Tempest are not switching then why would players under contract switch. This is fucking stupid to bring up here though. But your constant bullshit takes so much words to correct because its ALL wrong. KeSPA has said they plan to make the switch BW pros have said there making a switch maybe the reason RETIRED pros dont switch is becuase there RETIRED? if the BW pros switch then viewers switch too instead of Korea being split all of Kroea will watch SC2 the bigger SC2 in Korea gets the bigger it gets in the rest of the world | ||
| ||
