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Today, I thought I'd write on a topic that often gets glossed over on the tech boards. We all know that "enthusiast" PC components tend to involve premiums for insignificant gains, factory OC's, and branding. As such, I thought I'd write something informative on the topic, since I'm one of the less minimalist of the Tech regulars.
First things first, I'm going to give you the two rules of enthusiast components.
1: Make an informed decision. 2: If you have to ask if it's a good idea, you should do a lot more research before paying more for it.
Multi-GPU Configurations
+ Show Spoiler +We frequently tell people not to go SLI/Crossfire on the Tech board, and while I usually try to give some level of description why, it's something that I think lots of people don't understand, and it's kind of stigmatized beyond it's issues at this point.
1: False Savings. Unless you use a dual-GPU single-PCB card (which isn't a savings by any stretch), you have to buy a better motherboard. No matter how you package the GPU's, you need better cooling and more PSU. In the case of two mid-range GPU's to top the performance of a single GPU, this will end up making it cost more, and be more of a pain to work with.
2: Driver issues and scaling. The scaling is dramatically improved in recent years, with games with decent SLI/CrossfireX support easily hitting 180%+ of a single card solution. The fact is, though, the scaling is variable, especially due to driver issues. Remember, if you buy a new release, the drivers may not work well with it day one. In that case, the driver problems will scale much faster than the GPU's, causing shit framerates compared to a single better card.
3: Tinkering. Some people see this as a feature, I'm one of them. I love tinkering endlessly with things to try and squeeze barely noticeable improvements out of my system. If you do, multi-GPU is awesome. Custom profiles tend to be the best way to get results, and this can give you hours benching a particular game and tweaking things trying to get 1-2 more FPS.
4: Noise. The increased heat from multiple cards and less airflow comes with another drawback. GPU fans get really really loud if they get loaded heavily, particularly if there's insufficient airflow, which tends to be the case with multiple dual-slot cards jammed close together on a motherboard.
You'll notice I haven't given any real definitive reason not to SLI/Crossfire? That's because it isn't objectively bad. It's objectively more work, hotter, noisier, and more power consuming, but if those things are worth it to you personally, that's perfectly fine. The reason we don't tend to put it this way comes back to the rules of enthusiast parts.
Enthusiast Motherboards
+ Show Spoiler + For the sake of this discussion, I'm not just talking about the ability to overclock. When I say enthusiast motherboard, we're talking about feature-loaded. Tons of extra USB3 and SATA 6Gb/s, BIOS loaded with extra features, heavy chipset cooling, multiple PCI-e x16 slots for SLI/Crossfire.
Obviously, the motherboard is important. You don't want a junk one if you plan to overclock. But you can overclock without paying for features you don't need. If you aren't planning to go multi-GPU, don't pay extra for more PCI-e than you need. If you aren't going to use 6Gb SATA, don't pay for it. You don't need it for HDD's, so unless you're looking at SSD's, you can avoid getting a lot of the ports.
Good chipset and VREG cooling is handy if you plan to do a heavy OC, but for lower OC's, pretty much any board built to OC will be fine on cooling.
RAM
+ Show Spoiler +This is one of the big ones. You can easily pay 2-3x more for memory that gives, best case, 4-5% better performance. Given that that money could go into more CPU or GPU for bigger gains, that doesn't make sense unless those are already top end.
Getting memory working properly at better timings than CL7, or faster clock than 1600Mhz can be pretty involved, and due to weird voltage dependencies, even those numbers can be tricky, depending on your CPU clock. And again, you aren't seeing huge gains from it. if you really want to OC your memory, get a low voltage kit, not one that's been tested at higher clocks. The low voltage will let you OC the memory yourself, and they usually don't mention that above a certain clock in their testing, they were running higher VDIMM, sometimes unhealthily so.
Heat spreaders on RAM are pure gimmick factor. Servers and high end workstations don't tend to have them, why should your gaming rig? Unless you're being downright abusive, given that those chips are usually rated in the 90C range, the odds of your memory melting before your CPU or VREG are slim to none. The main two things heatsinks on memory do is block CPU coolers and look pretty. Actually, let's broaden that to all memory cooling.
Factory OC GPU's + Show Spoiler +Unless you're the epitome of lazy, these are almost always nothing but wasted money, the exception being certain cards where the only way to get certain non-reference cooling is to buy the factory OC. Overclocking a GPU is done through software with a GUI in the OS, takes little to no time, and you can find what should be stable numbers by looking at what the factory OC's run at. Not much else on this one.
Cooling
+ Show Spoiler +Here's the thing. If your PC was intended to have plumbing, the case would come with Drano and a plunger. It doesn't, so keep it where it belongs. The biggest problem with liquid cooling (ignoring the fact that it still bottoms out at ambient temperature, just like air), is the fact that if it dies, your PC isn't going to run until you fix it. Yous CPU can't work with no cooling, and a liquid cooler with no liquid is no cooling. A heatsink loses a fan, well, all you have to do is drop your OC down for a while and run it passive until you can get a new fan.
Spending extra money on thermal paste is downright insane for 99.99% of users. Why? Because, paying an extra $10 for 2-3C cooler at best doesn't make any sense when you could pay an extra $10 for a better aftermarket heatsink than you originally planned to get and lower temps more, or more quietly. Thermal paste will almost never be the key to making your temps comfortable for long term use, especially if you aren't shooting for records.
That's all on this one for now, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
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Agree on all counts except for thermal paste. A $10 stick of thermal paste is enough to last like 20 applications which means one stick can last basically forever if you don't upgrade/remove the heatsink too frequently between builds. Plus, the difference between a top quality thermal paste vs shitty thermal paste can be up to 7C which isn't so insignificant. I'm still using the same stick of AS5 from my build 5 years ago and its been through 2 heatsinks and 3 builds.
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On July 22 2011 11:49 ZeaL. wrote: Agree on all counts except for thermal paste. A $10 stick of thermal paste is enough to last like 20 applications which means one stick can last basically forever if you don't upgrade/remove the heatsink too frequently between builds. Plus, the difference between a top quality thermal paste vs shitty thermal paste can be up to 7C which isn't so insignificant. I'm still using the same stick of AS5 from my build 5 years ago and its been through 2 heatsinks and 3 builds.
But you can get a tube of thermal paste from the mid-range for the same price as the worst stuff, it's only a few that cost extra. Going from mid-range to good is only 2-3C, which is where i was coming from, as opposed to the difference between the worst and the best.
Yes, the stuff lasts for roughly forever, but it's not really critical to pay more for it. Also, this whole post is geared towards explaining to people who need to ask what benefit they'll see. If they're asking, they're not going to get as drastic of a difference, since their application won't be great the first few times, and they're not liable to be in a position where the 2-3C matters.
If you're more informed, it comes down to preference.
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Good shit but it would probably be a bad idea to run your rig for any amount of time on passive cooling. It's better to just keep a backup 120 lying around, but in either case the downtime of ordering a new fan or ordering whatever failed in your loop like a pump or something is pretty much the same.
It would be better to explain that the advantage of water cooling is that it allows the temps to bottom out at the ambient temperature of the outside of the case rather than the inside of the case, and that it generally allows heat to dissipate more efficiently due to the greater surface area of a radiator. However, it is up to the user to decide whether these temp advantages are worth it considering decent diy loops often go over $120+, have more points of failure, and have higher maintenance requirements, when you can already get very good temps on air where even the most expensive heatsinks are sub $100.
Water cooling setups also often end up similar or greater in volume than their air cooling setups, considering you're still using fans, often more than you were previously on air, and since the pump also adds some volume. The volume generally depends mainly on the fans you use on your heatsink / rad. Granted, the efficiency of water cooling would allow you to choose fans than push less air but are lower dB, if your main goal was simply noise reduction. Coupled with a quiet pump, you would be in better shape than on air.
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I agree with most of it, although I see watercooling as a fun project to work on, so I can sort of justify it - although I don't have one myself. As far as utility goes, well it sucks to maintain but a good watercooling loop will obviously yield better temps than anything aircooled. This is useless to a vast majority of users, but it's a hobby for some people.
As for the 4-5% gain from fancy RAM, I'm skeptical that you could even get that much out of real world applications (with a few exceptions, I'd guess). When people ask me which RAM they should buy, I tell them "whatever's cheapest when you order". The difference between 1333mhz and 1800mhz is hardly perceptible, but the cost difference is quite massive.
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On July 22 2011 12:05 xmShake wrote: Good shit but it would probably be a bad idea to run your rig for any amount of time on passive cooling. It's better to just keep a backup 120 lying around, but in either case the downtime of ordering a new fan or ordering whatever failed in your loop like a pump or something is pretty much the same.
It would be better to explain that the advantage of water cooling is that it allows the temps to bottom out at the ambient temperature of the outside of the case rather than the inside of the case, and that it generally allows heat to dissipate more efficiently due to the greater surface area of a radiator. However, it is up to the user to decide whether these temp advantages are worth it considering decent diy loops often go over $120+, have more points of failure, and have higher maintenance requirements, when you can already get very good temps on air where even the most expensive heatsinks are sub $100.
Water cooling setups also often end up similar or greater in volume than their air cooling setups, considering you're still using fans, often more than you were previously on air, and since the pump also adds some volume. The volume generally depends mainly on the fans you use on your heatsink / rad. Granted, the efficiency of water cooling would allow you to choose fans than push less air but are lower dB, if your main goal was simply noise reduction. Coupled with a quiet pump, you would be in better shape than on air.
Actually, if you check SPCR, plenty of people run passive CPU coolers, and just use the case's natural airflow. It's perfectly legit if you aren't OC'ed and your ambient temp doesn't suck.
Also, if you can't manage passive, most cases have a 120 you can stick on your cooler, and then when the new one shows up in the mail, you stick it to the case. Those factors reduce downtime significantly. Granted, water can be more efficient, but the number of people who really need the efficiency are slim, and the price barely ever justifies it.
On July 22 2011 12:07 Djzapz wrote: I agree with most of it, although I see watercooling as a fun project to work on, so I can sort of justify it - although I don't have one myself. As far as utility goes, well it sucks to maintain but a good watercooling loop will obviously yield better temps than anything aircooled. This is useless to a vast majority of users, but it's a hobby for some people.
As for the 4-5% gain from fancy RAM, I'm skeptical that you could even get that much out of real world applications (with a few exceptions, I'd guess). When people ask me which RAM they should buy, I tell them "whatever's cheapest when you order". The difference between 1333mhz and 1800mhz is hardly perceptible, but the cost difference is quite massive.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2792/13
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/memory/display/sandy-bridge-ddr3_7.html#sect0
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=245087
There's some numbers on memory.
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Informative post
I think they should make your tech support posts blue just like they do for the pros in the sc2 Strategy section as you are one of more knowledgable posters I see in Tech support (one of the forums I frequently read but rarely post in)
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On July 22 2011 12:10 K.Stoyles wrote: Informative post
I think they should make your tech support posts blue just like they do for the pros in the sc2 Strategy section as you are one of more knowledgable posters I see in Tech support (one of the forums I frequently read but rarely post in)
That would be terribly embarrassing on those occasions where I'm wrong. Anyways, I'd probably have to be nicer about correcting people. I appreciate the sentiment, but there's several who are much more deserving than me.
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On July 22 2011 12:09 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:05 xmShake wrote: Good shit but it would probably be a bad idea to run your rig for any amount of time on passive cooling. It's better to just keep a backup 120 lying around, but in either case the downtime of ordering a new fan or ordering whatever failed in your loop like a pump or something is pretty much the same.
It would be better to explain that the advantage of water cooling is that it allows the temps to bottom out at the ambient temperature of the outside of the case rather than the inside of the case, and that it generally allows heat to dissipate more efficiently due to the greater surface area of a radiator. However, it is up to the user to decide whether these temp advantages are worth it considering decent diy loops often go over $120+, have more points of failure, and have higher maintenance requirements, when you can already get very good temps on air where even the most expensive heatsinks are sub $100.
Water cooling setups also often end up similar or greater in volume than their air cooling setups, considering you're still using fans, often more than you were previously on air, and since the pump also adds some volume. The volume generally depends mainly on the fans you use on your heatsink / rad. Granted, the efficiency of water cooling would allow you to choose fans than push less air but are lower dB, if your main goal was simply noise reduction. Coupled with a quiet pump, you would be in better shape than on air. Actually, if you check SPCR, plenty of people run passive CPU coolers, and just use the case's natural airflow. It's perfectly legit if you aren't OC'ed and your ambient temp doesn't suck. Also, if you can't manage passive, most cases have a 120 you can stick on your cooler, and then when the new one shows up in the mail, you stick it to the case. Those factors reduce downtime significantly. Granted, water can be more efficient, but the number of people who really need the efficiency are slim, and the price barely ever justifies it. Oh ok, I was under the impression that passive was only an option for low end or underclocked cpus. Thats pretty smart to use a case fan like that too. I'm pretty sure though that most people know that any sort of premium components are not worth it at all unless you're upgrading to an SSD. You also have to factor in the awesome factor / aesthetic appeal of water cooling if done in that manner.
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On July 22 2011 12:14 xmShake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 12:09 JingleHell wrote:On July 22 2011 12:05 xmShake wrote: Good shit but it would probably be a bad idea to run your rig for any amount of time on passive cooling. It's better to just keep a backup 120 lying around, but in either case the downtime of ordering a new fan or ordering whatever failed in your loop like a pump or something is pretty much the same.
It would be better to explain that the advantage of water cooling is that it allows the temps to bottom out at the ambient temperature of the outside of the case rather than the inside of the case, and that it generally allows heat to dissipate more efficiently due to the greater surface area of a radiator. However, it is up to the user to decide whether these temp advantages are worth it considering decent diy loops often go over $120+, have more points of failure, and have higher maintenance requirements, when you can already get very good temps on air where even the most expensive heatsinks are sub $100.
Water cooling setups also often end up similar or greater in volume than their air cooling setups, considering you're still using fans, often more than you were previously on air, and since the pump also adds some volume. The volume generally depends mainly on the fans you use on your heatsink / rad. Granted, the efficiency of water cooling would allow you to choose fans than push less air but are lower dB, if your main goal was simply noise reduction. Coupled with a quiet pump, you would be in better shape than on air. Actually, if you check SPCR, plenty of people run passive CPU coolers, and just use the case's natural airflow. It's perfectly legit if you aren't OC'ed and your ambient temp doesn't suck. Also, if you can't manage passive, most cases have a 120 you can stick on your cooler, and then when the new one shows up in the mail, you stick it to the case. Those factors reduce downtime significantly. Granted, water can be more efficient, but the number of people who really need the efficiency are slim, and the price barely ever justifies it. Oh ok, I was under the impression that passive was only an option for low end or underclocked cpus. Thats pretty smart to use a case fan like that too. I'm pretty sure though that most people know that any sort of premium components are not worth it at all unless you're upgrading to an SSD. You also have to factor in the awesome factor / aesthetic appeal of water cooling if done in that manner.
You'd be surprised, a lot of people come asking for build advice in the tech board and are looking at stuff they literally have no use for that comes with a huge premium. I don't think enthusiast components are useless, I just think they're situational enough that buyers should know what they're getting out of it.
And I kind of expected the cooling section to be the most contested. But, again, it's all about informed decisions, the two rules I put up at the top are the core of my opinion on all of it.
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I do agree. Even having spent a lot of my life messing with computers, I do often find myself buying unnecessary "enthusiast" junk because of all the hype. It's good to see that this is generating discussion. Hopefully, people really will start questioning if they really need stuff or not before they buy it.
A big issue is when people who don't know ask people who should know, and get misinformed. I'm guilty of this as well, and as a culture of "enthusiasts" we've gotten too accustomed to cookie-cutter builds that are entirely wasteful. Even when we conjure up "optimized" builds, we really mean optimized for x% of people.
On the bright side, at least for the most part, when people are in error, they are siding on the safe side. For example, someone might not need a 560 Ti, but that's better than being suggested a 7800 incapable of handling their needs.
But to get back to the enthusiast topic, even experts really do need to evaluate their needs, the quality of the "enthusiast" product, and the premium they are paying for it. I was about to buy the P67 Sabertooth when I realized how wasteful that mobo (and actually ineffective) was. In my excitement, I forgot to read the reviews (most were positive but some key gems were of extreme importance to me) and I'm glad one of my good friends brought several issues to my attention. Knowing what I know now, I'm 100% certain that would've been a $200 error on my part. I settled on a $129 Z68 that offered everything I needed and more.
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Yeah, it can be a tricky topic to stay properly objective on when it comes up. It's hard to tell people not to buy stuff without opening the door for accusations of hypocrisy, but by the same token, I'd hate to suggest things that people won't be able to squeeze any real function out of.
On the optimized builds, we can only work with what people give us for information, and I think that hurts as much as anything sometimes. Although it does occasionally feel like a rut, I think that's more due to the fact that most people in this community only seem to want very specific things out of PCs.
The biggest one, of course, is cooling. Cooling is one of those things that a lot of people don't understand as well as they should, and the people who understand it tend to think it's so blatantly common sense that we can forget to get properly in-depth. And of course, enthusiast components are already kind of a "Spend your money your way" thing, but it can be difficult to remember that when someone wants to spend money on something I wouldn't bother with.
I'll generally never tell someone it's a flat out terrible idea to spend more for something if they have a use for it, but I do like to be sure they have a use, and knowledge of the effort behind the functionality before they spend their money on it.
I definitely overspent a little on my PC last year, but I don't feel any real buyers remorse, because all the premiums I've paid, I used, aside from buying factory OC'ed GPU's because the reference EVGA ones were sold out both times, and I love their support.
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