• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:36
CET 08:36
KST 16:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy7ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool48Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win42026 KungFu Cup Announcement6BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled12
StarCraft 2
General
Potential Updates Coming to the SC2 CN Server What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open RSL Season 4 announced for March-April WardiTV Team League Season 10
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone Mutation # 517 Distant Threat Mutation # 516 Specter of Death
Brood War
General
Which mirror match you like most or least? How much money terran looses from gas steal? Gypsy to Korea BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ mca64Launcher - New Version with StarCraft: Remast
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group C [ASL21] Ro24 Group B 2026 Changsha Offline Cup
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Cricket [SPORT] 2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7523 users

Situation Report: June 11, 2013

Forum Index > SC2 General
430 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 20 21 22 Next All
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-12 00:09:22
June 11 2013 23:13 GMT
#1
http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/10210613

Situation Report: June 11, 2013 by David Kim

[image loading]


With the awesome conclusion of the global finals of the first season of this year’s World Championship Series, we thought this was as good a time as any to offer a detailed update on our current thought processes and how we’re approaching balance going forward.

More Action throughout the Game

We strongly believe that this is the main direction the game should go. More action means more diversity, which makes the game more challenging to play and more fun to watch.

Back when Medivac drops were easy to stop, PvT was often a long macro buildup with little action, and a few large battles determined the winner. Nowadays, there are more drops happening, and every game plays out very differently. Different games range from the Protoss player perfectly stopping everything to the Terran player pulling off awesome drops to both players taking it to the late game, and everything in-between.

We feel that this diversity of outcomes makes for a better late game. Sure, sometimes a Protoss player amasses a large army of High Templar, Colossi, and Tempests, and against a well-defended opponent there are few options for harassment. But action-filled games are less predictable and reach the max-army endgame less often. When there is a huge maxed-out push, it’s the culmination of all the harassment and skirmishes that came before it.

Change the Game to Promote Skill

The Warp Prism change we tested last week is a good example of a tweak that benefits players who are amazing at multitasking, while having little effect on the game below the pro level. For an eSport game like SC2, we want more things in the game that separate out the very best from the average, not less.

We can look to INnoVation as a case where what we’re talking about is currently working quite well. His strategies are not very different from those of most other Terran players, but his Widow Mine usage is incomparably better. When we watch his TvZ games, we see a crystal clear difference between the usefulness of the unit and the skill of the player.



Units Currently Being Discussed

Some units will always be more central to specific strategies and/or matchups than others, so we’d rather those units be fun to watch and challenging to use.

We’re currently seeing a lot of discussion about:

Void Ray
  • We’re seeing a lot of Void Ray play in PvZ, but Protoss is still not statistically overpowered.
  • Zerg all-ins aren’t the only counter, as we see many PvZ matches last into the mid- and late-game, ending in a Zerg victory, despite the usage of Void Rays.
  • Void Rays are much better than they used to be, but we don’t think this is a bad thing.
  • Stargate used to be almost unusable, and now it’s quite important. We also see a lot of Robo and Templar play.
  • All tech options are viable now throughout the course of the game.
  • We don’t currently have any plans to nerf Void Rays.
Widow Mine
  • Widow Mines are currently overshadowing units such as Siege Tanks and Thors, but their use doesn’t correlate distinctly with wins over Protoss or Zerg opponents.
  • So our question here becomes “is this a good thing that Widow Mines have replaced Siege Tanks as the primary splash damage units?”
    • We believe the answer is yes.
    • When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
    • When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
    • The current design of Widow Mines rewards both players who are skilled at using them and opposing players who are skilled at defeating them.
  • It doesn’t look like Siege Tanks have disappeared. They’re critical in TvT, and in TvZ they’re key to playing a safe early/mid game. Additionally, Terran Mech also has potential.
  • As long as Widow Mines reward skilled players and Terran can’t legitimately be said to be better than the other races, we don’t plan to adjust this unit.



Casual observers often take a new or unexpected tactic or strategy that gains widespread use and just label it “OP”. In addition to Void Rays and Widow Mines, PartinG’s Immortal Sentry all-in got this treatment. Because it was a new strategy and it was working for PartinG, it was dismissed as OP. At the time, even other Protoss players at the highest level weren’t having as much success with the Immortal Sentry all-in after Zerg players had seen it for a week or two. We prefer to analyze a new strategy and ask:
  • Is this actually making the game more fun?
  • What would happen if we nerfed this powerful unit?
  • Would a proposed change make the game more or less stale?
Balance Testing Plan

We have two main goals for testing. First is making sure that we are dealing with units/strategies that are making gameplay stale. For example, we’re looking carefully at Swarm Host + mass defenses play. Our second goal is locating a race that is playing weaker than the other two, and improving it in ways that are fun for the game.

It’s important to note that we like trying out changes in balance test maps that are more aggressive than we might intend to implement in the live game. This is better than theorycrafting and gathering theorycrafted feedback. The more we experiment in real gameplay, the more we learn. We’re constantly reaching out to as many pro players and casters as we can, and we’re willing to try out changes that sound cool in testing.

As always, we believe everything can be improved. We’re very thankful that you share your thoughts with us.

Poll: First impressions of not changing the Void Ray?

Approve (1092)
 
64%

Disapprove (443)
 
26%

Neutral-prove (168)
 
10%

1703 total votes

Your vote: First impressions of not changing the Void Ray?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove



Poll: First impressions of not changing the Widow Mine?

Approve (957)
 
50%

Disapprove (805)
 
42%

Neutral-prove (149)
 
8%

1911 total votes

Your vote: First impressions of not changing the Widow Mine?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral-prove



PS: David Kim already commented on Hellbats.
Facebook Twitter Reddit
This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
Xivsa
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1009 Posts
June 11 2013 23:21 GMT
#2
Not a bad report. And it didn't mention Hellbats at all, but I hope that nerf will be coming soon.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. - Bilbo
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-11 23:32:03
June 11 2013 23:27 GMT
#3
I'm amused by how Blizzard says that widow mines reward skillful usage from Terran players. I also "like" how they say that when an army of tanks and marines goes against an opposing Zerg force, that observers can tell who will win the battle and who will lose...

That indicates a problem to me. If it is so obvious that a Zerg will win or lose against a force of marine/tank, then it should also be equally obvious whether or not a Zerg will win against a force of marine/mine. It's not skill on the Terran's part to use mines - in fact, the usage of tanks promotes even more skill. Instead of setting and forgetting tanks, they can also be focus fired, spread out strategically across terrain, and can shell a target from a safe distance. Mine usage promotes a CHANCE aspect. The only skill involved in a Z v. burrowed mine engagement occurs on the side of the zerg, attempting to mitigate as much damage from the mine as possible.

Blizzard is so desperate to remove the siege tank from TvZ that they call getting a few tanks to defend against a roach/bane allin "getting tanks." If the siege tank and the mine clash so much that Terran players predominantly choose one over the other and tank usage has largely disappeared, then one of the units is poorly designed and should be fixed so that their roles do not conflict, or it should be removed.

I also think that Blizzard is focusing too much on removing defensive strategies such as swarmhost + static in order to avoid the infestor/broodlord effect, without actually considering why such strategies exist in the first place. The reason that strategy exists is that it is the only way that Zerg can consistently beat an endgame Protoss deathball. Instead of attempting to stamp that out Blizzard should consider why the comp exists in the first place and what is causing it...It's ironic because outside of two-base allins the sole goal of a Protoss is to turtle to death on 3 bases.

In attempting to remove anything that is not aggressive from the game Blizzard is removing a lot of options and complexity. Just because something is defensive does not mean it is bad. Do not focus so much on the spectator that you limit potential gameplay. The death of the siege tank is a prime example of this.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
kckkryptonite
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1126 Posts
June 11 2013 23:41 GMT
#4
I think WM's need to exist though, Terrans were just getting raped with Marine Tank near the end of WoL. Especially now that Vipers exist. I like their thought process, and it's nice seeing Zergs putting on some aggression now days.
RIP avilo, qxc keyboard 2013, RIP Nathanis keyboard 2014
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
June 11 2013 23:47 GMT
#5
Playing zerg vs terran became much more intense for me in HotS due to the widow mines. I really like that you just can't a-move at all anymore. I agree that they shouldn't be adjusted.
I had a good night of sleep.
Vanimar
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
220 Posts
June 11 2013 23:48 GMT
#6
I love being informed like this so I know what is going on.
Bit sad though that the option of making medivac thrusters cost energy is not being discussed
I figured out the EG Curse. It was set in motion by Voodoo Shamans working for Millenium. Whenever EG aquires a player, Voodoo energies start slowly draining skill from the EG guy into an Millenium newcomer. Think about it!
_SpiRaL_
Profile Joined December 2012
Afghanistan1636 Posts
June 11 2013 23:52 GMT
#7
Not sure what DK is getting at with the 'skill' component of widow mines. Seems like they require less skill to use effectively than other options.
Red and yellow are all I see
jeeneeus
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1168 Posts
June 11 2013 23:53 GMT
#8
How about void rays in pvp? Or is that not really an issue?
JacobShock
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Denmark2485 Posts
June 11 2013 23:54 GMT
#9
Nerf hellbat widow mine, buff seige tank :b In all seriousness, I don't know if anything is OP. I just know that somethings are way too unforgiving and way too easy to execute.
"Right on" - Morrow
Zealos
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom3576 Posts
June 11 2013 23:54 GMT
#10
I love that they are trying lots of balance changes, without actually changing it in the game.
On the internet if you disagree with or dislike something you're angry and taking it too seriously. == Join TLMafia !
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
June 11 2013 23:55 GMT
#11
They know what they're doing, great to see
Lukeeze[zR]
Profile Joined February 2006
Switzerland6838 Posts
June 11 2013 23:56 GMT
#12
WM is insanely random, I really don't agree with their point. And they should be a bit more clear about the swarm host.
Terran & Potato Salad.
Exarl25
Profile Joined November 2010
1887 Posts
June 11 2013 23:58 GMT
#13
On June 12 2013 08:53 jeeneeus wrote:
How about void rays in pvp? Or is that not really an issue?


Hasn't been an issue for a while now. PvP is actually seeing a very wide diversity of openings and unit compositions, possibly more diversity than any other matchup ever actually. Of course in the late game Void Rays play a big role because they are an incredibly powerful unit but they are hardly all you make.
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
June 12 2013 00:00 GMT
#14
Pretty impressed with how they handle the game these days
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5219 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-12 00:04:38
June 12 2013 00:01 GMT
#15
Shocked that they won't change the Widow Mine.

It isn't overpowered statistically, but the effect it has on the game is dramatic. It controls APM better than any other unit, to the extent that in TvZ it allows Terran to dominate multitasking. Idra said this is the reason so many people have been doing Roach-Bane busts, simply because a Terran player who is good at multitasking can dominate an equally skilled Zerg player using Widow Mines. As a Protoss bystander, I'm inclined to agree when I watch high level Terran or Zerg streams. It ruined my favorite match up to watch for me.

Also as another poster said above, it promotes a chance aspect, rather than skill. The skill in using Tanks isn't just focus firing, it is in the positioning! Blizzard seems to have lost sight of this.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
June 12 2013 00:02 GMT
#16
I don't mind the widow mine replacing the tank with bio armies. I still think they could buff tanks a bit, just to give people more reason to experiment with mech.

He seems to take pride in protoss having 3 viable tech options, so how about stop talking about "potential" with mech and do something about it?
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33581 Posts
June 12 2013 00:02 GMT
#17
  • When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
  • When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.


uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
EFermi
Profile Joined May 2011
United States165 Posts
June 12 2013 00:02 GMT
#18
I think WM should be adjusted against air units, it's complete BS when a big flock of mutas dies to a few forgotten mines by the Terran.
GO herO, Bunny, JangBi, Savage, BaBy, Pigbaby, StarDust, RoRo, Flying and Soulkey
AnomalySC2
Profile Joined August 2012
United States2073 Posts
June 12 2013 00:02 GMT
#19
Sounds good. I think David Kim knows what he is doing, I'm sure he will make the game more interesting as time passes.
onPHYRE
Profile Joined October 2010
Bulgaria923 Posts
June 12 2013 00:03 GMT
#20
Well I can't say I agree with not changing WMs or VRs but I figured they wouldn't.
Livin' this life like it was written.
1 2 3 4 5 20 21 22 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
WardiTV Mondays #76
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 159
ProTech140
Livibee 72
StarCraft: Brood War
Zeus 3378
ToSsGirL 45
sorry 44
sSak 36
Shinee 27
Bale 23
Sharp 20
NotJumperer 17
GoRush 15
Nal_rA 12
[ Show more ]
SilentControl 6
League of Legends
JimRising 536
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0324
Other Games
ceh9105
Mew2King103
RuFF_SC246
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream70
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH307
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
KCM Race Survival
1h 24m
The PondCast
2h 24m
WardiTV Team League
4h 24m
BASILISK vs Team Liquid
OSC
4h 24m
OSC
10h 24m
Replay Cast
16h 24m
WardiTV Team League
1d 4h
Big Brain Bouts
1d 9h
Fjant vs SortOf
YoungYakov vs Krystianer
Reynor vs HeRoMaRinE
RSL Revival
2 days
Cure vs Zoun
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Team League
2 days
[ Show More ]
Platinum Heroes Events
2 days
BSL
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs Maru
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
WardiTV Team League
3 days
BSL
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Light vs Calm
Royal vs Mind
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
OSC
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Rush vs PianO
Flash vs Speed
Replay Cast
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
BeSt vs Leta
Queen vs Jaedong
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-24
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
NationLESS Cup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

2026 Changsha Offline CUP
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.