New here, but I have been looking at some other games. About time to join this party
Newbie Mini Mafia XXVII
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debears
United States2516 Posts
New here, but I have been looking at some other games. About time to join this party | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
In terms of lurker policy, We should put pressure on lurkers seeing as they don't help us although they aren't necessarily mafia. However, when a candidate for mafia appears, they should be our priority for lynch. Lynching the final poster is a bad idea simply because it's a crapshoot. It isn't based on logic and reasoning. Its main purpose is to rid of the player who contributes last rather than the player who is most likely mafia. And in terms of a town plan, I think accusation is a good thing that will generate discussion. Let's keep the accusations within reason with good evidence. And I believe that putting a 24 hour timer for accusations is a good baseline until we have most people posting. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + thrawn2112 Yeah I agree, there's not much else to add other than that lurkers are assholes and they are going to lurk whether there is strong support of a lurker lynch policy or not... especially in these newbie games. So on to more important matters, here's an idea: last person in the thread gets lynched A couple of you (SDM for instance) are concentrating at how stupid an idea lynching the last person is. Let's look at motivations for this: 1) Thrawn as town - prevent the lurker discussion from going overboard. Present an idea that should provoke an "you're an idiot" response from town members (with a long shot of some mafia jumping on him about the idea). 2) Thrawn as mafia - Put up an idea that a thinking town would take seriously, make himself look suspcicious. Possibly lynch the most inactive player if it works. The idea has far superior town motives. remember that Thrawn didn't linger on the idea. He dropped it after the responses were pretty clear on it. SDM did + Show Spoiler + Sonic Death Monkey Sweden. September 18 2012 15:12. Is this question serious? I think Thrawn has sufficiently answered the question. I also believe that thrawn's defense of kush earlier was not indicative of scum. + Show Spoiler + thrawn2112 United States. September 18 2012 12:36. Posts 1077 So him having that anti-lurker opinion is not anything that would be a strong tell in either the town or mafia direction The argument that Remedy was more of a shot in the dark, seeing as all of us hate lurkers. Thrawn dismissed a possibly dumb argument before a giant flame war started (kush did give warning earlier). I also support thrawn's logic with drazak: + Show Spoiler + thrawn2112 United States. September 18 2012 14:45. Posts 1077 On September 18 2012 13:49 drazak wrote: I'm already accused of being trashy town? Really Kush? Man, you're prejudiced right off the bat. I know you can post while you're at work and stuff, but I can't post in class and I can't post when I'm tutoring people. If you'd like I can sleep-post and it'll be really bad. Sorry if my posts last game weren't up to your posting standard kush. For the record, I might not post consistently at different times, and maybe I'll push agressively against someone, my reasons will usually be good. I'd ask that people use their own logic after reading my posts, look at the evidence provided and use your logic. Last game we had a lot of people not thinking for themselves, I'll be going to bed soon so don't expect another post from me. I'll probably post in the morning, and I think I'll post before tutoring, but I don't think I'll be posting until maybe this time tomorrow again after that. My thoughts while reading this: "man this guy is going out of his way to defend himself when there's no need to" Thrawn is currently not timid about calling people out within reason. To add to the argument, drazak's post also sounds indecisive. might, maybe, probably, think. While that alone is not anywhere near enough to condemn someone, it does raise suspicion on drazak. I think thrawn is town. Anyone with evidence pointing otherwise, please present. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Sonic Death Monkey Sweden. September 18 2012 23:10. Posts 345 PM Profile Quote # filter It was a joke inspired by this: + Show Spoiler + Aside from it being a joke and getting the discussion moving, we also gain some information. Knowing how many will be around for EODs is useful. Not for determining who to lynch as implied by thrawn, but for knowing how many votes will be permanent ahead of time. Getting to know the experience of players will also change how I will view some responses. Sure, I could research everyone's maffia history on TL, but I don't really have the time for that. Now I didn't really make the post because I thought this information was super important, I just made a joke of the series of question in Kush's post (he basically posed all the same questions). First of all, kush already requested that information. + Show Spoiler + kushm4sta United States. September 18 2012 11:18. Posts 302 PM Profile Quote # filter On September 18 2012 11:00 thrawn2112 wrote: Yeah I agree, there's not much else to add other than that lurkers are assholes and they are going to lurk whether there is strong support of a lurker lynch policy or not... especially in these newbie games. So on to more important matters, here's an idea: last person in the thread gets lynched discuss? Terrible idea? Since we prob have liek 3 different time zones. Biggest lurker gets lynched is a better plan but still not that great. A lot of noobs are pretty lost about what to do day 1. Here are my suggestions for discussion topics: 1 discuss lurker policy. I know you are bored with it or whatever, thrawn, but for peopel to say how they feel about lurkers and if they want to lynch them or let them lurk (both are viable strategies imo) gives us a baseline for FOSing people that go back on their lurker policy. Like what if a scum says lynch all lurkers, then one of the scumbuddies turns out to be the biggest lurker. That puts him in a bad position that he could avoid without lurker policy discussion. 2 I think we should discuss a plan for how to spend time. Here is my proposed plan: Freely making cases against anyone you think is scum in the first 24 hours of the day, then focusing on a couple of the biggest bandwagons in the second 24 hours. Do you like this plan or do you have a better one? I would a more systematic scumhunt this game though. 3 Give an introduction of yourself. How experienced are you? Are you a total noob or have you obsed some games? Very important IMO is will you be around for lynch time? That's 9 pm normal time btw if you are new. How active do you plan on being. Honestly I think once a day is okay IF your posts are good. + Show Spoiler + I didn't really make the post because I thought this information was super important, I just made a joke of the series of question in Kush's post (he basically posed all the same questions). Here you state yourself that the post was basically worthless. It accomplished the same thing kush's questions did. It's repetition. Aside from it being a joke and getting the discussion moving The list did generate some discussion, as did thrawn's lynch the last poster idea by the way So this was serious? It's a mind numbingly stupid idea. Unless you're scum and suggest it for an easy d1 town lynch. It's very easy to coordinate your scum team not to be the last one in the thread and you get away with an easy lynch. Since you don't seem mind numbingly stupid and it was a serious idea, it's scummy. Oddly, you want to accuse thrawn for posting something stupid that started discussion, yet you go on and do the same. FOS Sonic | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
One thing I would like clarification on from kush: + Show Spoiler + On September 18 2012 20:56 kushm4sta wrote: In regards to thrawn's attack on sonic for his survey: @Sonic: Yeah that was based on mine, but I dont think to make a list and say "answer these or you're scum" is very productive. What I put up was just some suggestions for newer players to have something to talk about. I notice newbies never really know what to say d1. @Thrawn: I don't think sonic's survey is particularly scummy. He did the same thing last game. He was scum last game, sure, but I think it's just his MO for day one, scum or town. Also here is why I think sonic is town. I'm putting my reasoning in spoilers because admittedly it's pretty dumb: He was scum for the last 2 games. Do you really think marv would make him scum 3rd game in a row? It's possible but just feels unlikely to me. Kush, the part in the messed up spoiler makes no sense if the game is random. Are the teams actually random? I did not see anything saying in the intro that they are random. If someone could quote the text that confirms that would be great. Now, it seems to me that you were trying to say that sonic is town because he is repeating his play as scum from last game. Do you believe SDM would try the same strategy again if he is indeed mafia? @ Sonic + Show Spoiler + Now he claims the question was serious but the idea was not To me, you are cherrypicking the wording and making it a bigger deal than it is. His intention was to gauge others' reactions to the post for a possible scum lead. Although the idea of actually lynching the last person is stupid, the idea of looking at everyone's reactions to the last poster lynch has some town merit. I also find it weird that he claims attacking his stupid question would be a scum trait Are you talking about me or thrawn here? thrawn2112 United States. September 18 2012 17:00. Posts 1077 PM Profile Blog Quote # I was trying to move the discussion past the mostly useless lurker policy talk circlejerk while providing easy bait for scum to jump at. I kinda failed in the first aspect but you seem to have jumped at the bait stronger than anyone else. This explanation confirmed what I thought he was doing in the first place. As you said, it seemed like a breakdown in logic to you, Sonic. I can see why since it wasn't an in depth look. However, if you look at the motivations from a townie and mafia perspective, it doesn't make sense as a mafia post. There's little reward for the risk as mafia. Here's what I showed earlier. 1) Thrawn as town - prevent the lurker discussion from going overboard. Present an idea that should provoke an "you're an idiot" response from town members (with a long shot of some mafia jumping on him about the idea). 2) Thrawn as mafia - Put up an idea that a thinking town would "not" take seriously, make himself look suspcicious. Possibly lynch the most inactive player if it works. btw i added in not in quotations. typo on my part from earlier. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
First, you say i had a "hardcore defense" and "strong town read" of thrawn. I never used the word strong. "I think thrawn is town". It is not I know thrawn is town or thrawn is confirmed town. I'm "taking a shot in the dark" for now and and saying he is town to me. Also, most of my "defense" of him was trying to explain to you the possible logic behind his post. You said it was a "breakdown of logic" and that you found it "weird", making you sound as though you were more confused, which from what I've seen, is a scum tell. Then, you say it is "stupid and anti town" to say that I think someone is town. At the very least, my statements put me and thrawn under a microscope and ignites good discussion. Also, since I think thrawn is town, I can focus on some one else, like you, and analyze what you're saying. Next, you say I look through all his posts and try to rationalize them from a townie perspective. That is wrong. I look at it from both perspectives. You never stated why you would think that mafia would do that. With my posts, you could say that you are rationalizing them all from a mafia's perspective. In terms of preventing lurker discussions, it prevents us from saying, ok which lurker candidate should we lynch? It's a specific phrase: let's lynch the last poster in the thread. Since it's specific, we can say, "oh thats dumb" or "i agree". Then, that can lead us to wondering, "thrawn seems kinda scummy" (you) or "he seems good to me". It puts attention on a specific player, leading to higher quality discussion. Then, you say the argument "convinced me". First, thrawns initial statement was a one liner at the beginning of the game. Then, you come along and bring it back up and make a big deal out of it. It didn't need a huge 3 paragraph answer to explain, although you seem to need it. I said it confirmed what I thought it was. As I looked at it, I thought, "wow thats dumb" also. But thinking as to why he would post it as mafia or town, I decided that it was a townie move. And in regards to stifling accusations, it can be good if it prevents dumb arguments that clutter up the thread, allowing mafia to hide. I didn't want to read through kush's warned, you suck because you accused me posts since he already warned about it. Not to mention, if we had accused kush in that situation, then you accuse everyone else who said lynch the lurkers. To emphasize why I made the defense post, I did it to prevent repeating what everyone else was saying and bring a new discussion topic into the thread (and it has succeeded). Also, I did it to try to narrow down the list of possible mafia to concentrate our efforts. The post in thrawn's defense is already helping the town by presenting a discussion about my alignment. We are now making specific accusations. We can look at bandwagons as we get closer to lynch now. However, Sonic, I am still having trouble understanding why there isn't any logic in what thrawn and I do. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
2. Lol. That part was in reference to Sonic not understanding thrawns actions and to Sonic not understanding the defense. and because hes my man crush btw @rethos Looking through the thread, I have found that your posts, while you have been posting often, are short and lacking of original ideas. This is the only one i found of any substance + Show Spoiler + rethos Romania. September 18 2012 20:17. Posts 52 PM Profile Quote # filter People what are your opinions on the case against SDM? We need to get some discussions going. From the lack of activity i guess this might be night-time for US but i am sure we have other people except me that are not from US. My opinion: from looking on SDM's filter in the last game he seems to like doing everything organized. That is ofcourse used by him as scum to make it like he's contributing. It does seem though to be a different type of "lists". I do agree that the survey is preatty much useless even though i answered it just to at least keep some conversation going. It does depend on the reason why SDM made the survey in the first place. I have multiple answers in mind for this and some are scummy some are not (in my opinion). I will ofcourse not discolse them untill he answers the question. @SDM what was your reason / thought process on creating the said survey? As for thrawn2112 idea that SDM jumped too hard on his proposal, that seems a bit of a weak point to me seing that i also was jumping on it but a bit more tactful by asking you first to clarify it. It just looks like too weird an idea to just leave it alone. We need to not let the game die, please people post some thoughts. In the post, your main point is that people need to post more.The other parts are repeated points. What say you, Rethos? | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
Sonic Death Monkey Sweden. September 19 2012 05:13. Posts 355 Reading thrawn's explanations and looking back at Debears filter it's possible he understood thrawn's plan That was what I was going for. Obviously, I poorly worded that part cuz it didn't get through. Also, at the time I made the thrawn defense post, I did not want to repeat what every1 else was saying. I saw that you were criticizing thrawn for doing something similar and it looked odd to me. Thus, I decided to question you. Once you kept saying you didn't see the logic, I tried to explain it. @Kush Why are you trying so hard to associate drazak, thrawn, and me. Understandly, my earlier posts would link me and thrawn. However, drazak does not come anywhere into play. Look at my filter there is one post about drazak. + Show Spoiler + debears United States. September 18 2012 22:42. Posts 8 PM Profile Quote Edit # filter To me, thrawn is giving a town read at this point. + Show Spoiler + A couple of you (SDM for instance) are concentrating at how stupid an idea lynching the last person is. Let's look at motivations for this: 1) Thrawn as town - prevent the lurker discussion from going overboard. Present an idea that should provoke an "you're an idiot" response from town members (with a long shot of some mafia jumping on him about the idea). 2) Thrawn as mafia - Put up an idea that a thinking town would take seriously, make himself look suspcicious. Possibly lynch the most inactive player if it works. The idea has far superior town motives. remember that Thrawn didn't linger on the idea. He dropped it after the responses were pretty clear on it. SDM did + Show Spoiler + I think Thrawn has sufficiently answered the question. I also believe that thrawn's defense of kush earlier was not indicative of scum. + Show Spoiler + The argument that Remedy was more of a shot in the dark, seeing as all of us hate lurkers. Thrawn dismissed a possibly dumb argument before a giant flame war started (kush did give warning earlier). I also support thrawn's logic with drazak: + Show Spoiler + Thrawn is currently not timid about calling people out within reason. To add to the argument, drazak's post also sounds indecisive. might, maybe, probably, think. While that alone is not anywhere near enough to condemn someone, it does raise suspicion on drazak. @sharrant and kush I find it odd how both are you are playing right now. Kush is lieing (and btw my main critic was SDM and not KillingTime). And this: + Show Spoiler + Sharrant Canada. September 19 2012 05:58. Posts 8 PM Profile Quote # filter On September 19 2012 05:26 thrawn2112 wrote: Show nested quote + Well that bolded part is just a straight up lie. I don't see how drazak fits into your theory... I was the first one to call drazak out on his unreasonably defensive post and I've never defended him. So once again, is the only reason you think I'm scum because of your debears association case? Show nested quote + Ok Sharrant that is a ridiculous vote. You start out saying "debears isn't really the most suspicious person to me" and say his defense of me "was weird, but not a strong tell either way in my opinion." Then you vote for him and say "there's a good chance he flips scum" and you're "not convinced he's mafia" after saying his defense of me was a null read. So, what exactly is your read on him and if you don't have a read then why are you voting for him? All I see is a bunch of "he may be scum" and "he is a null read." That's a ridiculous vote? You pick choice words out to discredit what I said, and try to make it personal. I'm fairly convinced the two of you are mafia after that. You know who I think is most suspicious, that hasn't been a secret. This has been mentioned in every post that Kush is my number one target, but that's not going anywhere. I think you should re-read my post. Several times even. Yes, his defense of you wasn't particularly strong either way in and of itself, that's what I said. That's one moment of his play, and you jumped all over that. So Kush is number one on your list. Makes sense that you would vote for him yet: + Show Spoiler + At the same time, debears isn't really the most suspicious person to me, his defense of Thrawn could be scummy, or it might not be. It was weird, but not a strong tell either way in my opinion. However, there is getting to be a large web of people involved with debears either way. ##unvote Kushm4sta ##vote debears So I'm not the most suspicious, yet I"m the one you vote for. And, not only that, you are going after me. Funny how you agree with kush, the person you most suspect for mafia, on that. And another thing that raised my eyebrows was how quickly you gave up on attacking kush although you still think he is sk: + Show Spoiler + Sharrant Canada. September 19 2012 03:14. Posts 8 PM Profile Quote # filter On September 19 2012 02:09 kushm4sta wrote: Defense of Sharrant's case against me Good...scumhunting...dude.. there I didn't flame. 1 You call me insincere because at first I say sorry cubu for bandwagoning him last game, then I call him out for lurking? I am not going to make a case against him for lurking, but I think a COUPLE words saying so and so are lurking we still need a post is fine. And yeah I will say cubu played really really bad last game. I wont apologize for saying that. I'm still sorry for lynching him. I was not trying to start a flame war for with cubu, I was just trying to get him to post. I think encouraging lurkers to post by calling them out or asking them questions is productive. Making cases against lurkers is not productive. It was just a couple of words, but it is all in the wording. It was the whole underlined, bolded, italicized call out of him. I agree that lurkers need a kick in the pants to start posting more. I'd like to see more posts from Cubu, Stutters, and Killing Time specifically. You've taken a few steps on the road to seeming town to me, but it's a long journey for you, I'm still sticking with my first call. 2 Show nested quote + I "keep on about NKs" only because people are calling me out for that statement and I want to defend myself. I will stop talking about NK if you stop. But since you brought it up again let me talk more about my stance on nks: + Show Spoiler + And if you're afraid to make yourself a target, then you don't put up as much as you can. NKs provide can provide just as much information as lynches can. On the first read through of your post, I was more convinced of your townieness. But your "I only talk about NKs because you guys talk about! But I'm going to talk about it again, and then say how it was a bad idea to talk about it in the first place." that's put me in an odd spot. It sends real mixed signals to me. 3 Show nested quote + I never reversed my stance on anything. 1 post a day is not lurking if its a long post. Lynch lurkers, yes, but 1 post a day does not make you a lurker. @sharron Is there anything else you want me to address or is that it? Also please give more effort to organize your posts better. Singling out the different arguments made against me was quite hard. I'll take this one as a misinterpretation of your wording earlier. You have the benefit of the doubt there, I retract that point from before. I think my post was more than adequately formatted, every point I called you on was bolded, every town read you gave was underlined, each point was addressed immediately afterwards, and was followed by a concise conclusion. If you have a suggestion on how to better format my posts, do tell. You've gained some leniency, in that I know have more of a doubt that you might just be a townie who just sort of blurts out whatever they're thinking, but my vote stays on you for now until you post your own scum reads. But I appreciate that you are remaining civil, I think it helps the town out more. KillingTime, you're starting to come up on my radar more and more. You seem to be riding coat tails, and posting a recap, rather than analysis of events, and then you come out swinging at debears based off of very, very little. People I would like to hear more from: debears, KillingTime, Rethos, Jacob You're all up there because I would like to get a better read on you, or I'd like to know more about your opinions. People I need to hear more from: Atreides, Cubu, Drazak, Remedy, Stutters And you're all up here because you're either suspicious, or lurking. My current suspicions are Kush (SK, possibly blue or self important green), KillingTime/debears (One of these two is mafia I think, more likely KT), Stutters (Maf, low content, low posts) We need to operate under the impression that among ourselves is not just the mafia, but a serial killer. It changes reads on people by an incredible amount. There's too many strategies open to an idependant killer if we don't also try to address them in our scum hunting. You basically stated that you are leaving kush alone. Yet you hide it in a mass of text about formatting. The rest of the post is you telling people who need to post. I liked the kush SK notion, but your current activity isn't making much sense. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Sonic Death Monkey Sweden. September 19 2012 06:37. Posts 358 What really came off as weird though, was how he not only implied Kush was scum, but that he even was SK. Seriously, that read is so specific it's ridiculous. To be claiming reads on SK this early, a 1 in 13 shot assuming there's even one in the game, is really weird. Spotting a SK hasn't even been in my range of thinking this early into d1. It's interesting though, because the players likely to be thinking about a SK this early in the game is scum. Just consider the information they've got. They know all townies and all maffia, figuring out if there's a SK is their only "black box" aside from blue roles (which he also mentions in his post). It's not at all weird for scum to think about SK at this point, but I do find it weird for townies. Ask yourselves, before his post, had any of you guys even been you guys been even considering a SK read? I had not thought of this. He has been stuck on the idea of SK The last thing is the blue roleclaim. Sharrant Canada. September 19 2012 07:45. Posts 11 @Kush Don't worry, I don't get pissy, it doesn't help anyone in this game. Obviously no one is going to role claim as mafia, so he'll claim something from town (either blue or green). You say getting him to roleclaim as a blue is scummy, why do you assume he's a blue? Hell, if he's a blue, he should lie and claim VT. I think he's a mafia, thus I want him to claim, because if he is mafia HE HAS TO CLAIM A TOWN ROLE. Yes, he may be a townie that's entirely true. But more likely in my mind at this point is that he's a mafia. Making his claim early means that he'll be somewhat stuck on roles, can't claim blue or he'll most likely get outted as mafia, and claiming town will eventually show a discrepency. Not only do you want a roleclaim, you want me to roleclaim this early? Wanting a roleclaim is bad. What is the purpose of roleclaiming 24 hours before lynch? That, combined with my post, and his call for the blue roleclaim all are enough reasoning for me to vote. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
Sharrant Canada. September 19 2012 07:45. Posts 11 @Kush Don't worry, I don't get pissy, it doesn't help anyone in this game. Obviously no one is going to role claim as mafia, so he'll claim something from town (either blue or green). You say getting him to roleclaim as a blue is scummy, why do you assume he's a blue? Hell, if he's a blue, he should lie and claim VT. I think he's a mafia, thus I want him to claim, because if he is mafia HE HAS TO CLAIM A TOWN ROLE. Yes, he may be a townie that's entirely true. But more likely in my mind at this point is that he's a mafia. Making his claim early means that he'll be somewhat stuck on roles, can't claim blue or he'll most likely get outted as mafia, and claiming town will eventually show a discrepency. You say LIE if i am a blue role and claim vt. You're telling someone else how to play a blue role. Both of those, from what I have seen in previous games, are usually more hurtful than helpful and can be scummy (Xatalos calling for a vig kill on kville) Roleclaiming would just add to the confusion in the semi-open setup. You can't confirm roles due to the possibility of multiples of the same one. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
Sharrant Canada. September 19 2012 12:15. Posts 15 PM Profile Quote # filter @Atreides That was me that mentioned the possibility of them both being masons. @Kush I agree with you about lurkers at this time. I'm ready to bury the hatchet on both debears and thrawn in order to get rid of one of our hard lurkers. I will be able to post an argument on you and Kush tomorrow, most likely in the morning. In the lurkers, there is one that still has my attention, Rethos. On September 19 2012 06:33 rethos wrote: @thrawn2112 since the whole debears affair, your conflict with SDM seemed to have been left in the air. What is your current read about SDM? Do you have any other reads that the town might want to know about? This was his last post. Although he is posting, his posts are not beneficial. Most of the latest ones contain questions. He hasn't directed accusations at anyone. Why, if he is town, is he trying to convince people he is right? What does that do? How does that help? Is it just bad town play? This is just a sample of what he does. Three questions in a row that he did not post an answer for himself. Most of his other posts follow a similar format. He just directs the question at someone. I understand the difference in time zones affecting the amount of posts. However, the quality is poor. He isn't taking a stand on anything. Looks like he is trying to look active without provoking anyone. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
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debears
United States2516 Posts
On September 19 2012 11:31 kushm4sta wrote: So I'm kind of demoralized atm about my debears case since no one is even talking about debears anymore but me. Sharrant has effectively consumed everyone's attention.. so I guess bad job sharrant whether you are town or scum. Case against debears recent post. There are several points in this post where debears directly copies thrawn's arguments without backing them up. I'm not trying hard. I wrote one sentence bringing up that possibility, people asked me about it, and I answered them. If anything I was trying hard to get people to drop it. This is beating a dead horse to a bloody pulp. Either he didn't read my posts, or he is doing it on purpose. Scum loves shit like this because they can get a lot of scumhunt mileage over something that contributes nothing. (Kind of like getting on someone's ass for voting instead of fosing..) Basically he is copying thrawns argument directly without expanding on it or even explaining it, and he doesn't acknowledge my answers to thrawn. I'm lying about? Again this is a repeat of something thrawn said. With nothing to back it up or anything. Just randomly throwing down some baseless suspicion. The dick riding has continued, only instead of actually defending thrawn, he just copies all his claims and leaves out of the logic behind them. Unfortunately, before i posted my argument on Sharrant, I did not know SDM and thrawn had presented a case on Sharrant. The post took me a while and I did not refresh the page. Otherwise, I would have refrained from posting the thing. Also, when you accuse 3 people of a scum group, you should expect a response from each of them. And you were lieing(an exaggeration according to you) about the supposed scum team. Now, Kush, here I want to dismiss the basis of your argument kushm4sta United States. September 19 2012 04:27. Posts 328 PM Profile Quote # filter If I had to call a scum team right now it would be Thrawn debears drazak just because they are all defending each other at this point. The only I would be willing to lynch though is debears. Before you jump down my throat I know it's too early to call scum teams and this is pure speculation. According to you, the reason for this scum team is our defense of each other. kushm4sta United States. September 19 2012 05:51. Posts 328 PM Profile Quote # filter @thrawn you say I made a straight up lie and that's not an accusation I take lightly. if anything it was an exaggeration and not a lie. I don't want to spend a lot of time discussing my scumteam theories, because while I think they help in looking for cases, they do not constitute a case. but I don't like being called a liar so here goes. drazak is connected by saying killing is more suspicious than debears. he says they can't both be mafia so therefore debears isn't mafia. That is the classic mafia defense..defending a teammate by attacking the attacker. and you have defended debears. So that was the basis for that comment. Is it a real case against you? no. Is it a lie though? also no. Ok now by drazak attacking KillingTime, he is mafia to you. But who was the main person attacking me at the time? SDM was the main attacker at that point. Why wouldn't drazak, if we are suppposedly linked, go after SDM. Yet, you seem to defend sharrant in a similar way. also why are so many people already voting sharron? His play is really stupid with the roleclaim call, but stupid play doesn't make you mafia. you think first time mafia would really be so confidently retarded like that? Isn't sharron's roleclaim call as stupid as my defense of thrawn early on? You could make the same argument for me. On September 19 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote: So wait I misunderstood. This is just his first game on TL not his first game. But he could be talking about IRL mafia. @Sharront Is this your first game of forum mafia? Thrawn I think you are referring to when sharrant voted for debears right after saying he's not the most suspicious person. People are misunderstanding how some people use ##vote. They use it like ##fos basically and just change their vote a bunch of times throughout the day. I do not think there is anything inherently scummy in that. Here you defend Sharrant's vote on me, saying that his newbieness on the tl mafia forum is a reason to excuse his vote. However, In sharrant's SK argument Sharrant Canada. September 18 2012 23:54. Posts 15 So since we've had a few FoS's but no votes, allow me to cast the first vote ##Vote:kushm4sta This statement seems to me to show that Sharrant understands that votes carry more weight. He basically said that FOS weren't putting any pressure on at this point. Also, the fact wasn't that he voted for me. It's that he voted for me over you although he still thought you were more suspicious. Thus, your argument for his misunderstanding of the use of votes is a stretch of a defense for him. Why are you going out of your way to defend him? Are you going to say that, since I am a noob and my move was idiotic, that I should be let off the hook? You're accusations have inconsistency. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
rethos Romania. September 19 2012 16:21. Posts 62 PM Profile Quote # filter Ok i have looked back through thrawn2112 and debears filters. There is one thing that is very odd. They are always on the same page they are always agreeing. BUT they never talk. How can two people be always on the same page without ever interacting? They are always in sync they always think the same. thrawn2112 agrees with what debears is doing, finds nothing suspicious all is ok. debears is certain on his thrawn2112 town read and he follows thrawn2112 in voting for Sharrant. He ofcourse says that they have "beaten him to the punch" meaning that he had a case on him but the others were faster. He never presents said case even though it would be useful for everybody. (You need to clarify what you meant by that post debears - see I am not asking questions ) Everybody has noticed the interaction everybody is mentioning it but nobody is mentioning the fact that they don't communicate at all. thrawn2112 has preatty much talked to everybody that was willing to answer back but not debears. They never answer eachothers posts, always answer to posts made by other players about the other on of them. This all screams to me that there is out of thread interaction. I am happy with either one of them going. Seeing that there is a greater possibility that debears gets lynched than thrawn2112, my vote is on him. ##Vote debears Rethos welcome to the party. There is a bit of difference in your last few posts from your older ones in a good way. The fact is that right now, since you have answered my post about you, the other lurkers are a bigger priority. Keep posting though. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Sharrant Canada. September 20 2012 01:20. Posts 24 PM Profile Quote # filter @Thrawn The mod never made mention of either of you, the question did not have anything to do with either of you. It was a question of mechanics which made both of you appear less scummy to me. Make of that what you will, I think you should be able to figure it out with what I was saying earlier. @SDM 1. Werewolf, MafiaSC2, and just regular Mafia. All of those have had some form of independent killer. Werewolf having lonewolf/witch, Mafia SC2 having MM/Arson/SK, and regular mafia having SK as well. This is not my first rodeo. 2. No, I haven't read through any of the games on this forum in detail. I've read through a number of games at mafiascum though. 3. At that point both of them had struck me as scummy players. Killing for going after easy reads, debears for parroting. Killing had made some mention of debears being mafia and went as far as to vote for him. I saw this as an issue that would end up being a distraction when it's two scummy players against each other, so I wanted to focus it on the one I found more scummy and see more of how thrawn and debears both reacted. 4. Yes, you are right about that, I was meaning when I posted to vote him. I had a slight town read on both of them before the fact that debears was just reposting what thrawn had written crept more into my mind. So I put in my vote, based on the fact that at that point they were both scummy to me, with debears being slightly ahead. I figured only one would be mafia, I could be wrong and it could be Killing that is. At this point, I am not interested in Thrawn or debears as a lynch until I see more of what they say. When I looked at what they said, I had an incorrect grasp of the roles, their abilities, and their possibilities in this game, looking at it with new information it strikes me as very possible that they are both town. 5. My read on him as SK was also always backed up by the fact that it could also always be explained by just poor townie play. I picked up on him as SK or "town that just blurts things out" because he was so afraid of NKs, and the few sort of slips he did have were not real mafia slips. They looked scummy to me, but not what I would expect from a mafia, rather what I've seen from other SKs. His last few posts have made me sure he's not mafia. THere's still a small chance he could be SK, but for now I view him as town until there's proof of an SK. To me the "please don't kill me"s seemed genuine enough that I didn't believe he was mafia, but the slips also pushed me in a scummy direction. Thus that was the only step that could take. What happened to your scum read on killer? He still has yet to post more than a few lines on why I should be lynched despite being asked to. Also, he has lurked himself. This is his best post. + Show Spoiler + KillingTime France. September 19 2012 15:07. Posts 64 PM Profile Quote # filter Ok - well I think the best thing for me to do Is go through the questions drazak asked me last night: Players I want to see more from - There are lots of players in this category: 1. RemedySC - Not much interesting in his posts, nothing scummy but nothing strong 2. Drazak - Again, he made fair points about me and I am answering his questions - he has said he will also try to post more today. If there is one thing that I learnt from XXVI it is that associational cases are bad though. So leave off this how is he connected to X&Y on D1. 3. Stutters 4.Cubu!!! - I am quite happy to policy lynch cubu every game I play with him if he is not posting more. Cubu post more or I will vote for you. Two strongest town reads: (though town reads are kind of dubious atm, because strong mafia probably look like town now -d1 we are more trying to catch a weaker mafia I think) 1. Thrawn - I don't put much stock in the idea that him & Debears are necessarily linked in some way - but his posting has been strong all day 2. Sonic - Solid town posts, less high up for me though, just because I have the experience of playing with him in XXVI and know he is a strong player who fooled me for large parts of that game. When I went to bed, I thought Sharrant was towny - he was following the same train of logic that I did and he was . Now I just don't know - others have totally fought with him on asking debears to roleclaim and that was a bad idea, I don't think he is a good d1 lynch, there is too much chance he flips bad town, but he is definitely a player I want to look at more closely as the game progresses And the most important part - scum: 1.Debears - my scum read on him from yesterday has not changed that much, his hugely defensive posting since then is a bad, and I agree with Kush's attack on his last post. I sort of like that he is attacking rethos - but rethos is an easy target, a lurker who has only posted questions so far. I await to see what he has to say about Sharrant. 2.Atreidies - 3 posts, all bad , random setup speculation. You can pretty much sum up everything he has said so far as "I'm not convinced" - That is not at all scummy per se - but you need to combine that attitude with efforts to scumhunt yourself and contribute actively. Because he hasn't, it looks scummy to me. All this post is really is a giant list with a couple of lines per person. It doesn't accomplish anything. Another post of his + Show Spoiler + KillingTime France. September 19 2012 22:41. Posts 64 PM Profile Quote # filter I don't think "having assignments due" makes Cubu any less scummy. Last game we gave a pass D1/2 to weetee who had to get replaced and let Xatalos off the hook because he was at the army - they were still scum and that was a mistake. As far as "My" case (not really "my" case - but my vote) on Debears goes I still prefer him slightly over sharrant. see Debears as more scummy than sharrant because he led with stupid play and then tried to explain it away, whereas on my reading the Sharrant case seems more "bad towny" than a strong scum read, he started trying to help town and then made a dumb mistake. also why are so many people already voting sharron? His play is really stupid with the roleclaim call, but stupid play doesn't make you mafia. you think first time mafia would really be so confidently retarded like that? Isn't sharron's roleclaim call as stupid as my defense of thrawn early on? You could make the same argument for me. So for me it is kind of similar - but yours looks worse. That said, this game still has too many lurkers - I am not sure at the moment whether debears is strong enough to justify not shooting one of them, hopefully I won't need to make that decision because they will all come in with plenty of useful posts (fat chance). Killing hasn't made his own case of any kind this game. And, the only case, beside lurkers, he has discussed is me. His only contribution is saying that I look more mafia because of the timing of my stupid play. If you are going to go after lurkers, why aren't you going after the one you suspected earlier? | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
##Vote: KillingTime @Sharrant The mason claim makes sense with Cubu as your partner. In light of this, it wouldn't make sense as mafia for you to give up your partner openly. Thus, I will not vote for either of you. @everyone else I would like to be here for the last hour or two to contribute, but as a reminder I will be gone at practice. Right now, based on drazak pulling a KillingTime and voted without putting reason, it is hard for me to decide between the two. Since drazak is here to defend himself currently and has the most votes if I count right, I will put my vote on KillingTime. I had specified in an earlier post to Sharrant kt's scummy, unhelpful posting. Although you can say the same for Drazak. I feel like KillingTime, although he said he would not be awake during the lynch, would have stayed awake to sort out the aftermath of the mason claim rather than voting and leaving. On September 20 2012 07:19 KillingTime wrote: I need to go to bed. I can't process this stuff properly right now. Back to basics = hunting scum - so I am going back to voting my strongest scumread before all this nonsense - which was debears. I think that puts him and cubu on 2 votes each. You guys who are awake get to decide who to lynch I guess. ##unvote ##vote debears Even if you can't process it 100%, you could at least wake up after an hour nap and be there to help out. Gotta go. See you all Late tonight | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
First, this jumped out at me. On September 20 2012 09:01 Atreides- wrote: God damn this thread blew up fast. I would've went with a no lynch over Drazak but it doesn't matter now. Why would you want a no lynch? Even though the mason claim caused confusion, there were two reasonable candidates in drazak and KillingTime who had been lurking with scummy tells. All a no lynch would have done is keep lurkers around. @SDM + Show Spoiler + Sonic Death Monkey Sweden. September 20 2012 11:20. Posts 403 PM Profile Quote # filter On September 20 2012 10:45 thrawn2112 wrote: Also, the Cubu mason claim just looks way too convienient... all throughout the last half of D1 he is asking us to trust him abhout things we have no possible way of confirming and if he's mafia then cubu is the safest townie to lie about. At the point when he dropped the cubu claim I didn't think and I don't think anyone else thought that cubu was going to ever post again. I was thinking about this at the time, but it kind of felt far fetched because Cubu hadn't cast his vote and it seemed weird that he would assumed Cubu wouldn't be back to the thread at least for voting. And if Cubu is in on it, he's basically given up 2 scum. I think looking closer at the exact timing of the various claims he's made may be important. The "outing" of Cubu came late, although it seemed to me the set-up of Cubu as his fake mason buddy would've to have been planned in advance. I will get back on this. His timing can be explained by town and mafia motivations. Town - He waited until the final hour (if i am correct) when he had 6 votes on himself. His back was against the wall and if he is mason it preserves an important part of us. Mafia - By waiting until the end, he sent us into some confusion. We were stuck in a situation where our biggest bandwagons were gone, as Kush said. And, it ended up pushing our focus on lurkers and a mislynch. I have not been able to go through any filters yet to look at everyone's reasoning for their votes. From a first glance, there was good reasoning for most of us for voting who we voted for. Still, I will check more in depth. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
Atreides- United States. September 20 2012 15:10. Posts 71 PM Profile Quote # filter I didn't actually know about the no-lynch until the mod posted about it. If I had, I would've suggested it quite a while ago. I'm assuming that voting for a no-lynch works the same way as voting for a lynch, in that we just need a majority of votes (and not every vote like you said). Maybe I'm wrong on this. There weren't any exceptionally strong arguments against killer / drazak. The consensus was "eh, he's kinda scummy, and kinda lurking, and he's kinda the best option, let's kill him and see what happens". So yeah, as a principle I'd support no-lynching (on day one only) versus doing a half-assed lynch on someone else. Where do you get that this was the consensus. There is a reason why they showed up as targets. Although they posted, their posts did not contain much. They voted for other players without stating their own reasons. One thing has just now came to my mind. The instant bandwagon against him is pretty interesting, and it's obvious now that the mafia had a strong hand in it. Is that why you wanted a no lynch? The problem with choosing between killer and drazak is that, like I meant earlier, mafia has a lot of power here. If killer turns out to be mafia, his team can go for a drazak vote and the bandwagon easily follows because nobody has strong feelings one way or the other. The time constraint and confusion was really perfect for something like this. The problem with this logic is that you could have said the same for drazak if you don't look at the situation with hindsight. Drazak and Killing did similar things. In fact, any lynching can be due to mafia. Who do you feel is the most mafia right now? Also, mafia can essentially bandwagon on a no lynch also. A no lynch makes it alright for everyone to prevent taking sides on arguments "because no one has strong feelings one way or another". The mafia can hide behind it. | ||
debears
United States2516 Posts
The evidence backing the mason claim is good, as pointed out by thrawn and sonic, and with sharky's confirm. Debears is still a slightly scummy read from me, last nights incident didn't really help my read on him. He wasn't particularly involved aside from in a swing in, swing out post. SDM, and Thrawn I have very strong reads on from that, you both easily could have pushed a bandwagon on me very hard, and it likely would have stuck. So neither of you strike me as red because you had the perfect opportunity to lynch a fairly active person claiming mason, and both dumped it. I stated early in the morning that I would not be there for the lynch due to practice (and I play for a D1 baseball team, I don't really have a choice for scheduling. I also stated that I had classes until 5 (the last one was a physics lab in which I have to be active). I had to do a quick in and out because I was in a rush and there was a lot to read. @Atreides Unfortunately, there were a lot of us absent at the time of the lynch. One person does stand out from the crowd of us absentees, Atreides + Show Spoiler + On September 19 2012 11:55 Atreides- wrote: In defense of Sharrant - He's in a similar position to debears - bad decisions do not necessarily mean scum. Think about it - what could a mafia hope to gain by this? Getting a lynch is far too ambitious, and a role claim isn't worth getting so much attention to yourself. Mafia wouldn't want to aggressively pursue targets, they want to passively follow the crowd. Sharrant rode hard on debears, and has shown that he's willing to use his vote freely. I think that trying to get a role claim is a bad idea (debears will claim vanilla town no matter what role he is, this tells us nothing) but I don't see what's scummy about that. He's actively scumhunting, and both of his ideas (kush being SK, pressuring on debears) are original. Someone mentioned the possibility of debears+thrawn being masons, which is something I didn't think of. The bromance between the two is pretty apparent since the beginning. Both have said that they believe the other is town, and they've used FOS (against sonic) and vote (against Sharrant) in unison. Thoughts? I don't see a strong case for both debears and Sharrant right now. I'd be more inclined to vote for KillingTime if anything. At that point, there wasn't anything concrete, so your judgement passed. Now, for his next post related to sharrant + Show Spoiler + On September 20 2012 06:41 Atreides- wrote: Oh man, what an interesting situation. Some possible outcomes: 1) We decide to lynch Sharrant, he then outs the other mason. Pretty bad outcome as the mason will simply die. 2) Sharrant outs a mason, he confirms, and we lynch cubu or killing. At this point it's very unlikely for both Sharrant and his ally to be mafia, and more likely for both to be masons. Relatively strong outcome. 3) We lynch Sharrant without him revealing the mason. If he was bluffing and flips red, this is a huge win, but it's a stretch. If he flips mason, we're in trouble. 4) Sharrant doesn't reveal the mason and we lynch cubu or killing. This seems like rolling the dice, as we wouldn't have any idea if Sharrant is lying or not, and it's very possible for us to lynch a townie on top of that. I'm leaning towards 2) as an option right now unless something changes. From the description it sounds like masons come in pairs, and it'd be extremely unlikely for there to be more than 2 masons in any case. If I'm wrong on any of the game mechanics here please correct me. I feel that both Killing and Stutters are slightly scummy/lurky but cubu sounds like a strong vote as well. I was hoping for him to post by now. ##unvote ##vote cubu You fail to mention any of the stuff between that and the mason claim. Sharrant had 6 votes, and had said things that didn't make any sense until the claim. Next, you don't post anything until 1 minute after the deadline, citing the preference for a no lynch. + Show Spoiler + Atreides- United States. September 20 2012 09:16. Posts 72 PM Profile Quote # filter On September 20 2012 09:09 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Show nested quote + What is this? You don't post ANYTHINBG productive for 48 hours and then you conveniently drop by 1 minutes after deadline to chime in you think drazak is a mislynch. Is this hunting for cheap townie points before drazak is flipping green? I wasn't around after my last post, and I mixed up the voting deadline by an hour (thought it would be an hour from now, my bad). Your last sentence is a pretty moot point since it'd look equally bad for me if he flipped red. I find it odd that you happen to just "mix up the deadline" and yet check and post at 9:01 about the no lynch even though the thread was "blowing up". That means you must have been looking at the thread. And that means you must have known about the deadline's correct time. + Show Spoiler + On September 20 2012 15:10 Atreides- wrote: I didn't actually know about the no-lynch until the mod posted about it. If I had, I would've suggested it quite a while ago. I'm assuming that voting for a no-lynch works the same way as voting for a lynch, in that we just need a majority of votes (and not every vote like you said). Maybe I'm wrong on this. There weren't any exceptionally strong arguments against killer / drazak. The consensus was "eh, he's kinda scummy, and kinda lurking, and he's kinda the best option, let's kill him and see what happens". The problem with choosing between killer and drazak is that, like I meant earlier, mafia has a lot of power here. If killer turns out to be mafia, his team can go for a drazak vote and the bandwagon easily follows because nobody has strong feelings one way or the other. The time constraint and confusion was really perfect for something like this. So yeah, as a principle I'd support no-lynching (on day one only) versus doing a half-assed lynch on someone else. I'm mostly waiting for Cubu / his replacement to comment about the mason thing, as that's the key factor to Sharrant's innocence. When he made the claim he had no idea whether or not Cubu would end up posting and voting, which makes lying an amazingly ballsy play. Will be around again tomorrow afternoon. Yet again, you cite that there weren't any strong cases again. You are indecisive. You were purposely lurking at lynch deadline. The time constraint and confusion was really perfect for something like this. Do you really expect every lynch to be easy, with laid out proof and someone screaming out "I'm mafia"?...c'mon man | ||
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