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The Philosophy of Design: Part 2 - Unit Design

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EternaLLegacy
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States410 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-10 18:38:15
January 10 2012 18:09 GMT
#1
Part 2: Unit Design

[image loading]

While my mechanics article suggested that this part would be about macro-mechanics, due to the direction discussion seems to have been leaning, I have decided to address what seems to be the biggest source of controversy in this part: unit design. I will talk about macro-mechanics in the next part.

See Part 1: Mechanics Here

I think it's important to talk about unit design from a more abstract perspective before delving into the Starcraft franchise. For the purposes of this discussion, units will be defined as any object under player control which can interact with objects under another player's control. This eliminates interface elements, static map elements, and resources. A unit's purpose is to provide a conduit through which a player can channel his intentions. The skill at which a player executes these intentions reflects mechanical skill. The goals the player chooses reflect strategic skill. As such, units are a direct reflection of the skill of the player, and form a window into his mind. This is important for spectators and opponents alike to make the emotional connection to the player. This is an essential part of any sport or competition – the 'human element' as it were. So, when we talk about unit design, I think it's important to think about units as conduits for the players.

A unit has dimensions of interaction – that is – ways which it can interact. Let me provide a simple example to illustrate this idea: Take the game pong. There is only one unit each player controls, which is the paddle. The ball and playing field are analogous to the map in Starcraft. There are only 2 dimensions of interaction which the units can move. First, is the position of the unit. Each player can choose where to place the paddle at any given time. Second, is the velocity of the paddle. Each player can decide how fast and in which direction he wants to hit the ball.

[image loading]
Clash of the pong titans.

Now, lets remove one of these dimensions of interaction. Lets take away the velocity component to the paddle. You can now only move the paddle at a fixed rate. We can see that this will greatly affect what you can do in terms of angles imparted on the ball, and therefore the amount of unique game states which can exist. In effect, we have reduced the number of conduits between players, because now they have only one conduit, or dimension of interaction, which they are connected through, the position of the paddles.

We can see the same thing happen in chess, if we remove all pieces but pawns. The game becomes a lot less interesting, and while it is still a game of skill, there aren't nearly enough ways to outclass your opponent, and so the game becomes very stale. Any chess players probably have played the 8 pawn game and know it is completely deterministic and solvable, and therefore quite boring. This example illustrates exactly why we like to have multiple different units. Each unit offers a new dimension of interaction in chess, or sometimes even more than one (think: castling). The complexity of interaction is what allows for an interesting game, since there are many conduits connecting the players, and therefore many places where they can outsmart and outplay each other.

[image loading]
What the heck is going on? This is too complicated I'm playing pong.

However, more units does not necessarily mean more conduits. Imagine replacing the queen's rook with a new piece – the juggernaut. The juggernaut can move through any number of pieces, capturing them all if they are enemy pieces. Would this piece increase or decrease the number of conduits available to the players? At first glance, it sounds pretty cool. I mean, think of all the cool play you can make with this piece? However, it turns out that there is no situation where this piece can be properly used, because white would instantly be able to capture black's juggernaut at the start of the game. In fact, it doesn't matter what piece you replace with the juggernaut, because that always will happen. The juggernaut destroys the game of chess, instead of making it more complex and interesting.

[image loading]

I literally cried laughing at this picture.

There are a lot of games that are full of juggernauts. I think command and conquer is notorious for having juggernauts galore in their games. I distinctly remember trying desperately to play C&C: Tiberian Sun like a competitive game a while back. As it turns out, it's really a race to see who can get multi-missiles first and blow up the command center of the other player with a perfectly placed shot. The game is pretty fun if you just play through the single-player and don't take it seriously, but there is some clearly atrocious unit design. Unfortunately, I think that unit design in Starcraft 2 suffers a bit from this syndrome as well.

So, we've established how units provide dimensions of interaction between players, and how good units add dimensions, which bad units destroy them. I think now we have a good framework with which to look at the units of Starcraft 2. While I could go over every single unit, every building, and every spell, I think that the biggest problems would be lost among the sea of information, and so I will try to focus on what I think are the biggest culprits, and the biggest general design flaws.

A) Micro-reducing abilities

I think this is the single most frustrating aspect to unit design in Starcraft 2. We've all experienced it. You set up for a big battle. You engage, and spells get thrown down everywhere. Things aren't looking so good though, and you sound the drums of retreat. Oh, but what's this? Your entire army is immobile. I guess you might as well eat popcorn and watch the spectacle of explosions and gore that once was your army. It's just so absolutely frustrating to know that you can literally do nothing.

Looking at my framework above, we can see that this scenario occurs when the juggernaut shows up and destroys all other dimensions of interaction. So, what's the juggernaut in this scenario?

1) Sentries and Forcefield:

[image loading]


Forcefield is a really interesting mechanic on paper. I have to credit Blizzard for making it fit into a game at all. However, the way they implemented it in beta was absolutely game-breaking. Many of you remember the days before massive units crushed forcefields. Many of you remember the days when you could trap units literally inside forcefields so they were unable to do anything. Forcefield was so destructive to the game that Blizzard had to patch in fixes for it. However, part of me thinks that they were only buckling to community complaints and didn't realize exactly what fundamental flaws forcefield had which caused it to be a source for complaint in the first place.

Forcefields cannot be interacted with by the opposing player. All you can do is try to avoid them and bait them as best you can, and hope to drain sentry energy through EMP if you're terran. It comes down to, “does he hit good forcefields or not?” There is no dance between the players, where forcefields come down and the opponent micros against them. I've seen (and been in) many games where a forcefield on the ramp literally ends the game, because there is literally nothing the other player can do about it. Force stuck outside your main? Well, you lost the game.

[image loading]
Umad zerg?

So what would be appropriate fixes for forcefields? Obviously we don't want them to be useless, especially early on, because protoss HAS to have them to survive some pressure attacks and allins. One suggestion I remember from beta was giving them finite hp, but no target priority (and perhaps giving them high armor would be good too to make them stronger earlier rather than later). I personally like this idea a lot since it forces micro from the other player, but does not auto-win a fight for the casting player. I'm sure there are other options out there as well.

2) Fungal Growth:

[image loading]
Fungal ALL THE THINGS!

Fungal Growth seems to be the favorite of zergs these days, and with good reason. It's pretty much the only spell zerg has that has any meaningful impact on the game (aside from queen macro abilities). It also is a safe spell, because if used properly it automatically ensures that the opponent can do nothing about it. Fungal's damage component alone is very strong, but the stun is absolutely game-breaking. If zerg ever is winning a fight with infestors in his army, the opponent cannot run. There's literally nothing they can do. I consider it to be pretty much a weaker version of forcefield in terms of micro-reducing power. At least infestors don't have any attack and are T2 units, so there's some opportunity cost for utilizing them.

3) Concussive Shells:

[image loading]

At least they don't come standard on marauders now... Concussive shells are not as dramatically micro-reducing as the two previous abilities. However, they do basically ensure that no army can ever disengage without heavy losses, without the use of some other ability, like blink or forcefield. The one redeeming quality for concussive shells is that it requires active scootnshoot micro from the terran. The reliance on APM-heavy micro does create a significant speed/skill barrier that seems to be a large factor in the skill difference between foreign and Korean terrans. It takes a lot of speed to take full advantage of this ability. I think this is a bit of a lesser evil probably because the game has been so heavily balanced around it now, but from a design perspective, it's rather atrocious.

B) Micro-less units:

These guys are part of the reason people whine about the game taking “no skill” or being “too easy.” I'm certainly one to blame at times. But is the complaint legitimate? Looking at the framework, these are units who have only one-dimension of interaction, which is that they exist. Nobody talks about using these units “smarter” or with a different “micro style”. They become a macro-level strategic tool, used to inflict blunt-force trauma on your opponent.

1) The Colossus:

[image loading]
"But Day[9], what if he a-moves?!?!"

I remember seeing the introduction to the colossus by Blizzard, and how they thought of him as a cliff-striding raider, who's mobility was the central feature to the unit. I don't think I've seen anyone even make use of the cliff-striding power of the colossus in months. It's just a big aoe-damage dealing sledgehammer you throw into your ball of doom.

If you look at why this occurs, it's possible to find a few distinct design considerations that contribute:
The colossus is a unit that is extremely expensive. This automatically makes it a unit that is a huge risk early on. As such, it rarely appears in a stage of the game where it is the most powerful as a singular unit.
The colossus is fairly fragile for its cost. While 350 total hp sounds really beefy, it is armored and damage output of units in Starcraft 2 is simply higher than its predecessor. To compare, that's 10 zerglings of hp, and 10 zerglings costs only 250 minerals. For the price, the colossus is very easily killed.
The colossus cannot fight air units at all, but is vulnerable to anti-air.

So what does this mean? Well, the colossus is strongest when it is protected, surrounded by anti-air, and gotten when the cost is not so dramatic that if it dies it's automatic GG. So, you see the midgame mass colossus play.

Now there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but we have to look at the actual strength of the unit:
Siege range, making static defense worthless and punishing any units that come close.
AOE, negating large masses of weaker units
Speed, able to keep up with any other protoss unit

This means that the colossus fits a role that no other protoss unit but the carrier does (siege range), has a powerful aoe which is shared by only 2 units (archon/storm on HT), and fits into any protoss army. Contrast that with the carrier, which is stupidly expensive, single target, and slow. Contrast again with high templar, which are slow, have no attack, limited damage output, and no siege capability. Archons are the only unit that seems to compete with colossi, but the lack of range plus a lack of power vs mechanical units makes them still not quite as desirable.

The colossus simply does everything other protoss units are designed to do, but better, and with fewer drawbacks.

As such, the colossus does not need careful attention to make sure it is maximizing its role. The only thing you have to do is keep it alive, and it kills everything with glee. As such, the burden does not rest on the protoss player to use the colossus well, but the opposing player to counter them well. The colossus does not become a conduit for interaction between players, because the interaction around the unit is very one-sided, where the protoss simply makes them and his opponent has to react to the units' very existence. As such, either colossus work or they don't. There's no battle where you go, “man, that guy had such great colossus control. If he played worse there he'd have lost it.”

And of course, colossi can actually lose their attack if they cancel their animation too fast, even though the graphic will play. This means that you're just better off attack-moving and leaving the things alone, cause micro might make them perform worse.

2) The Roach:

[image loading]
What's the counter to roach? More roach.

When the concept for the roach was revealed in alpha, I was very excited. The unit seemed to be the epitome of interesting design. For those of you who didn't know, the roach regenerated hp at an extremely high rate, and as such had very strong attrition power, and was very strong vs non-concentrated fire. Fighting roach required active micro from the opponent to focus down individual roaches, and keeping your roach alive as long as possible and abusing the high regeneration rate to rotate hurt roaches back was especially rewarding. Badly micro'd roach, or badly micro'd units vs roach were both vastly inferior to well micro'd units. This is exactly what makes units interesting.

Then when beta rolled around the roach became just a high hp ranged unit that seemed to require no micro to use. There was no active regeneration until hive tech. It was just a really lackluster unit. Since that time, the active regeneration upgrade simply disappeared, and the burrow and burrow-move mechanics turned out to be insignificant and gimmicky. I'm personally incredibly disappointed in this unit, because Blizzard literally took a great idea and destroyed it.

The roach suffers from a lot of the same issues the colossus does:
-Roach outperform hydralisks as a ranged attacker in almost every circumstance, since they are faster, have nearly double the hp, and cost significantly less.
-Roach are the only zerg unit before ultralisks that can take any sort of AOE punishment at all.

As such, roach supplant a lot of the zerg army in many circumstances (ZvZ and ZvP especially). We really don't see anything in terms of a balanced force between lings, blings, hydra, and roach with infestor and air support. Instead we just see a lot of roach + support. Now, I am not saying that people only use roach. However, when they DO use roach, they don't just add a few roach to another army. The roach is not a unit that adds any new dimension to an army, it simply supplants already existing units, in the sense that any role the roach is filling in an army can also be filled by another unit that zerg has, but likely worse.

3) The Thor:

This unit just screams “DONT MICRO ME.” It's slow, with slow responsiveness, clunky attack animations, and really poor targeting. There's only one thing you can do with thors which is focus or cannon really large targets. There is no move/shoot with something that clunky and slow. There's no repositioning such a unit in battle.

It seems like even Blizzard is so disgusted with how horribly this unit turned out that they're scrapping it for HotS, and as such I don't want to dwell on it further.

4) The Phoenix:

Those of you in beta should remember when this unit was given its wonderful shoot-while-moving ability. We all desperately wanted something micro-able, and what does Blizzard do? They introduce one of the goofiest mechanics in Starcraft 2. I'm perfectly okay with the unit itself, and I think graviton lift is a very interesting ability, but the implementation of move-shoot is just so embarrassingly silly and anti-micro that it deserves a mention here. Move-shoot does not mean a unit that automatically shoots while you move it around. That removes the entire decision making process of what do I shoot at?/when do I act to shoot? It's just a bad mechanic.

C) No Zone Control Units

[image loading]
Not that type of zone.

Lastly, we come to the most glaring weakness in Starcraft 2. There is almost no way to hold ground in this game. There are several contributing mechanics that exacerbate this problem (warpgates, no high ground defender's advantage), but the overwhelming ailment is the complete and utter disregard for positional units that Blizzard seems to have adopted for this game.

But why is this such a weakness, according to our framework? Well, the complexity of interaction between units that exist not to kill other units but to control terrain is far greater than units which exist only to blow things up. Simply, the army-level interaction between move-shoot-kill units is very one dimensional. Units smash into each other and the better force wins. However, area control units are much more interesting, because they turn army interaction into a territory control battle. The goal of territory control units is to cut off important routes and gain more map control.

Map control allows other aspects of the game to take over: Macro, harassment, and scouting. More map control yields more bases open for the taking, more routes by which you can harass, and more vision of the map to combat enemy army movements, expansions, and harassment. When armies exist not to kill each other, but to control terrain, the game shifts more towards those three elements, and less away from “who has the better army?” and big deathball fights. Big deathball fights are one-dimensional army-level interaction, whereas map control is multidimensional.

1) Siege Tanks

[image loading]
Too bad I made immortals.

What happened to these guys? It seems like literally every other unit in the game is designed to counter them. We have dragoons with blink, charging zealots, dragoons with some kind of tankrape cannon that evaporates them like it's their job (oh wait it is), marauders, voidrays, phoenix that can lift them up even when sieged (even though I swear they are clamped to the ground), broodlords which cause them to splash each other, and more.

Tanks are just far more of the glass cannon role than they used to be, and because armies are so much faster and higher dps, the window for getting in position and sieging up is extremely small. This makes them just too much of a liability in many cases, especially vs protoss. The designers simply created too many ways to kill tanks for tanks to hold positions by themselves.

2) Banelings, Burrow, and Detection.



Baneling mines are some of the most enjoyable things to do in Starcraft 2. They can be incredibly cost effective vs marines, and are one of the few map control devices that exist. However, they are gimmicky, since a flub leads to them doing nothing, and they cannot be reused, and as such they don't provide true permanent map control.

This brings me to the use of burrow and the unimportance of detection. In Broodwar, the infamous lurker was the powerhouse map control unit for zerg. While many players miss the lurker, I do not suggest bringing the lurker back into Starcraft 2, at least directly. Rather, I think the lurker brought certain key aspects to bear that made it such a phenomenal unit.

The lurker was a purely micro centric unit. It was 100% worthless burrowed in the wrong place, and superbly powerful in the right one. This dichotomy based on position is one of the most essential components of map control-oriented gameplay. The lurker also forced detection, something only the DT and banshee adequately now, leaving zerg in the dust. Burrow banes, burrowed roach, and infestors simply do not force detection, because they are not active threats while burrowed.

The burrow/detection interaction provides a new conduit through which players can interact. Players were scared to move out once lurkers were on the field without great scouting and ready detection, because they could lose their entire army. Even if you move out vs burrow banelings, it's virtually impossible to lose your entire army, because the banes can only kill so many units.


Banelings just can't do that.

What zerg needs is more of an active burrow-based map control mechanism. Fortunately, from the HotS preview, it seems like burrow-banelings will be able to move underground at hive tech. This still is far too late into the game for a detection based map control device. Some way for infestors or roach to be active threats while burrowed would be a major improvement (or moving that proposed baneling upgrade to lair tech) would do wonders for stabilizing zerg map control and making them less reliant on active armies.

3) Static Defense and the Non-Necessity of Siege

[image loading]
Look Ma! No units!

Static defense in Starcraft 2 is extremely weak at actually defending anything. The strength of static defense is supposed to be raw stopping power, in exchange for absolutely no mobility. The idea of static defense is that you sacrifice map control for very cost efficient defense. However, due to the lack of any meaningful map control in Starcraft 2, the opportunity cost for static defense simply isn't very high, and as such, the cost efficiency had to be lowered, to give an incentive to players to make mobile armies and kill each other. That seems to be the direction Blizzard went with in designing this game. There is a huge emphasis on making armies to go kill people, and very little emphasis on actually staying alive.

Naturally, given the weakness of static defense in general, the universal stopping power of defense is much lower than it could be, and that leads to the high level of coinflip losses to allins, because defense is so weak you cannot invest in large amounts of the wrong defense. In addition, since there is little reason to rely on static defense to stay alive, the role of siege units is dramatically reduced, which contributes dramatically to the big deathball army-movement, and one punch victories.

Buffing static defense however has led to stronger cheese (stronger bunkers and stronger cannons, and even spine crawler/queen rushes in beta). This creates a strange situation for us. I think the appropriate response is to make static defense more upgradable, as to avoid the use of strong static defense as cheese early, but without sacrificing stopping power. The planetary fortress is actually a strong example of such defense, and I think it offers a strong incentive towards map control style play, where you don't have to rely on large armies to hold position.

In Conclusion:

Starcraft 2 suffers from unit design that limits meaningful interaction between players. Much of the interaction is one-sided, and as such, the game is less about being the other player than about beating the units themselves. The lack of meaningful map control contributes to a very unstable gameplay, and leads to large-battle centric games. If HotS is to solve these major problems, it needs to implement more micro-able units, which function as distinct and unique conduits with multiple dimensions of interaction between players. Adding more flat units will only further supplant existing units and destabilize the game.
Statists gonna State.
Bocian
Profile Joined September 2010
Poland259 Posts
January 10 2012 18:20 GMT
#2
nice threat. I think u r right with most of the statements
SuB.ZerO
Profile Joined July 2010
United States55 Posts
January 10 2012 18:21 GMT
#3
if your claiming that phoenixs are unmicroable i'm guessing you havn't watched hero play....
"My favorite Harry Potter character is IdrA" - White-Ra
julianto
Profile Joined December 2010
2292 Posts
January 10 2012 18:26 GMT
#4
Are you complaining about tanks versus protoss when there's the 111?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
January 10 2012 18:26 GMT
#5
Can you link part 1 please?
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
Mephiztopheles1
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
1124 Posts
January 10 2012 18:34 GMT
#6
Wait, wasn't this thread done a long time ago or something?
EternaLLegacy
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States410 Posts
January 10 2012 18:36 GMT
#7
On January 11 2012 03:26 graNite wrote:
Can you link part 1 please?


Yes, I just realized I should've done that, will edit it in, thank you.
Statists gonna State.
LanZ
Profile Joined June 2007
35 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-10 19:09:49
January 10 2012 18:37 GMT
#8
A really nice thread you wrote.

As for the 111, you can't blame a build order to make a badly designed unit become good.

On January 11 2012 03:46 GleaM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 03:37 LanZ wrote:
A really nice thread you wrote.

As for the 111, you can't blame a build order to make a badly designed unit become good.


OP mentioned nothing about the design of the unit, just the design of the surrounding game. If you're gonna comment on other people's posts, please know what you're talking about.


Edit: Oh, my bad, maybe I worded it differently from what I was thinking, hell I can't even comprehend how I wrote badly designed, I just got riled up when people blame a unit for a build order being what it is. Without actually looking at it from another perspective.

Now that my mind is clear, my point is, it's not the tank that's badly designed, it's more of how easy it gets countered from what the OP says, that's making it look bad in my eyes when compared to the BW counterpart being way stronger. Through the patches, that decreased the tank's usefulness. Just my opinion on it.

BUT I still stand by my point that I don't think the tank is to blame for the 1-1-1 being good.

I find it oddly similar to the modern mech switch in BW TvZ, only it's in the early game for SC2 TvP. It's hard to handle that many marines + a few tanks, and also a banshee disrupting your economy.
Go Bisu ~ JangBi !!!
gCgCrypto
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany297 Posts
January 10 2012 18:41 GMT
#9
Highlite this thread! if not done yet =)
L E E J A E D O N G ! <3
dUTtrOACh
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2339 Posts
January 10 2012 18:44 GMT
#10
Very nice. I like looking at this type of breakdown of the unit types in the game, only I'm curious as to why you would say nobody really uses the cliff powers of the colossus anymore. I feel as if Protoss has gotten a lot better at not doing completely idiotic things with their colossus, but that cliffwalk is quite heartbreaking when they get up that cliff with 4 HP and rain AoE on your lings. Also, roaches might feel like you don't need to micro them, but it's actually still better and burrow movement is not a gimmick when you need to use it to get under FF or when it actually saves your units. Otherwise I really like the thread and agree that zerg who don't actively fight for their map control can't really rely on zone control units, since it's pretty much just broodlords...
twitch.tv/duttroach
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
January 10 2012 18:45 GMT
#11
Pff alot of these are just disguised balance whines.
First of all you don't seem to know that much about gamedesign I'm realising. Complexity is not the holy grail in game design which your article does make it seem to be. Depth while remaining clarity is important. Chess is a great game because it's complex but still relatively easy to understand and thus strategize for, you don't have to know how to win directly for example by simply focussing on winning pieces allowing for people to plan strategies while not being experts. Go on the other hand is by many players especially in more Western societies deemed as too complex because it's very hard to set intermediar goals for the game because the game is more difficult to set subgoals for.

Microless units are needed to create important units, if each unit had many abilities etc it would become too chaotic or complex. The microless units you mention are not poorly designed at all imo in fact many of them have interesting abilities i think. Roach for example may look like a boring vanilla unit but wasn't the hydra in BW as well? Roaches being no AA means there is much more room for air units to play a crucial role in XvZ matchups a great design choice imo. The only poor unit design mentioned in this article here is the colossus, not per se because it's boring in itself but because of the counterunits (viking and corruptor) that there are which invalidate other cool units (battlecruiser and carrier).

In the same vein I don't see units that restrict micro as poor either. In the case of the sentry there is plenty that can be done about it for example, flanking, dropping, burrow, fungal, emp, etc.etc. Losing to it is aggrevating perhaps but that doesn't make the design poor, it's just a hidden balance whine.. Stasis and lockdown where liked abilities as well how are stuff like fungal etc different? If truly nothing could be done about these abilities then it might be problematic but there really is plenty you can do, for example marauder kiting can be solved by forcefields so these 'unfun' mechanics can perfectly solve eachother.

The point about a slight lack of zone control units I agree with but saying siege tanks don't fulfill that role now is silly. The entire TvZ matchup and TvT matchup revolve for a large part about zone and map control because of the siege tank. Saying this doesn't work properly is just silly, breaking siege lines is still very hard. The problem is just that you seem to be comparing the game to BW too much, yes PvT is not the same and the PvT there is now might not as good the BW variant but that doesn't mean the tank is broken.. they just chose an other path for sc2.

All this pretending to be some game design guru while it's just an elaborate balance whine basically is annoying. The conclusion is also just complete bogus.
GleaM
Profile Joined June 2011
United States207 Posts
January 10 2012 18:46 GMT
#12
On January 11 2012 03:37 LanZ wrote:
A really nice thread you wrote.

As for the 111, you can't blame a build order to make a badly designed unit become good.


OP mentioned nothing about the design of the unit, just the design of the surrounding game. If you're gonna comment on other people's posts, please know what you're talking about.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
January 10 2012 18:53 GMT
#13
I don't see how you can build so much of the thread around the idea that fungal destroys micro, when infestors are one of the most micro-intensive units in the game, both for the zerg player and the opposing player that has to feedback/emp them, snipe them (with small groups of marine/marauder), and split his units properly. It seems to me you just dislike a few units in the game and you decided to create a bogus framework that didn't quite fit, but with enough pictures and text would sound believable.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Omnipresent
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States871 Posts
January 10 2012 18:54 GMT
#14
This is a nice read.

My only criticism is that you make Blizzard sound totally inept through most of this, and then suggest that they've made a really intelligent choice in weakening static defenses in light of other game mechanics. It's far more likely that they're just muddling through.

The rest of the analysis seems essentially correct, and you made me think about roaches differently than I had before.
Raambo11
Profile Joined April 2011
United States828 Posts
January 10 2012 18:56 GMT
#15
Brilliant Thread, I agree with basically 100% of what you wrote wholeheartedly. I have always been opposed to units that prevent micro, as it takes away a lot of skill from the game, and thus the fun of it (IMO). People need to stop discussing balance persay, these are problems with game design, a different subject.
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3685 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-10 19:00:07
January 10 2012 18:57 GMT
#16
I think your basic idea is pretty good, just like it was in the first part, I just feel like you are shooting way over the top and make things sound a lot worse than they actually are, just like you did with the hole ball shit when it's quiet obvious that spreading out units and using multiple control groups is already starting to become the standard in sc2. Also as an example well microd colossi can do so much more than unmicrod one, kiting is really effective and target firing makes them just so much more effective. Yet I do agree that colossi are just shitty designed, they are just not the "you are better of a moving than microing" units you apparently see in them.
Some of the units you picked out are really shitty, with some you are just overdramatizing, looking forward to part 3, even though this seems to turn more and more into "why bw is better than sc2 and I lost faith in blizz".
PureBalls
Profile Joined January 2012
Austria383 Posts
January 10 2012 18:57 GMT
#17
For the longest time, I've thought, that SC2 will never be as awesome as BW. But cool plays, that I've seen recently have convinced me otherwise. For example the PvP series between MC and JYP @ HSC. I swear, I have never seen such cool PvP in Broodwar. Base race in BW PvP was sooooooooooo rare, and thanks to blink stalkers it seems more common in SC2. I love it.

Then, as a protoss user, I have hated Blizz for giving toss soooo many useless units. In particular I've despised the carrier and the mamaship. But looking at the latest PvZ metagame, it seems that the mothership has its role in the game after all. And damn, it looks cool when zergs bust out their imba unit comp consisting of infs and broods, and it all gets sucked down the toilet and raped.

Sure, I hate roaches and marauders, because they are such massable, tough to kill and cheap a-move units. I also hate the protoss dependence on FFs. I would prefer tougher and faster gate units (esp. zealots, which seem useless in sc2 compared to BW), and sentries w/o FFs, but with guardian shields that can be cast just like storms.

I also agree with your take on FFs, CS and Fungal, I hate them all. But I also love blink stalkers, and to me they are the coolest micro unit in the game, that is 10x better for the gameplay then dragoons ever were.

Would love for Blizz to change the following things in HotS:

- no more shells (early game TvP engagements need to be more back and forth w/ more micro)
- replace charge with something controlable. The current ability is just too much a-move.
- take out FFs, but make gate units stronger and faster, and make WG a mid game upgrade (twilight council)
- make hydras stronger and faster, but reduce DPS
- reduce roach HP, but buff regen and DPS slightly
- dont remove mamaship, but take out carriers. I also dont think tempest are needed, since more cool anti muta abilities will be added (arch light, recall...)


I'm happy with the new units, which are coming with HotS. More micro and harass for toss = so good!
PhxdB
Profile Joined January 2012
14 Posts
January 10 2012 19:04 GMT
#18
I chuckled when you compared SC2 to Command and Conquer imbalance. Wasn't Dustin Browder a CC developer?
EternaLLegacy
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States410 Posts
January 10 2012 19:04 GMT
#19
On January 11 2012 03:54 Omnipresent wrote:
This is a nice read.

My only criticism is that you make Blizzard sound totally inept through most of this, and then suggest that they've made a really intelligent choice in weakening static defenses in light of other game mechanics. It's far more likely that they're just muddling through.

The rest of the analysis seems essentially correct, and you made me think about roaches differently than I had before.


Yah, you're probably right, but I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt for once. They get a lot of hate but they actually do have a lot of creative ideas. The problem is they seem to lack that filter that separates out terrible creative ideas from good creative ideas.
Statists gonna State.
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
January 10 2012 19:05 GMT
#20
I think mirco-reducing abilities is the biggest issue with SC2. I hate FFs especially. Most of the other problems, if they are problems at all, are being improved with the expansions for the most part. I'm pretty confident, but I would love if Blizzard did things about FFs, then I would be pretty happy with the game, at least as far as what's mentioned here.
all's fair in love and melodies
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