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The Philosophy of Design: Part 2 - Unit Design - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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robih
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria1086 Posts
January 10 2012 21:17 GMT
#61
wow i dont even want to imagine spinecrawlers being even better
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
January 10 2012 21:17 GMT
#62
On January 11 2012 06:15 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 06:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
On January 11 2012 06:03 Spicy_Curry wrote:
On January 11 2012 05:57 ChaosTerran wrote:
On January 11 2012 05:42 Tor wrote:


The Colossus: Why is this unit microless? A moving is a symptom of overpowering unit compositions, of which the colossus can be viewed as taking part in. The fact colossus can stand on units does lead itself to deathball scenarios, however the unit encourages good micro outside of anything deathball scenario, and demands thoughtful engagements inside deathball scenario.


You can't be serious....

The collossus takes absolutely no micro at all, in fact it's actually most effective when just a-moved into the opponent's army. and the fact that the collossus can stand on top of other units makes it even easier to 'micro' because it doesn't matter if it's poorly positioned inside the protoss army pre-battle because it can just reposition itself once it's a moved without any micro being required by the player.

With that being said, I almost agree with everything the OP said and I would definitely add chargelots to the units that require no micro. If there is one unit in this game that requires absolutely no skill to use it definitely is the chargelot.


actually if you micro the collosus its splash increases.

Not exact numbers but you get the idea
EX: target a marine= the splash width is 1
EX: target a maruader= splash width is 2


Focus-firing is standard with pretty much every unit, but since focus fire can be shift-queued it doesn't really classifiy is micro intense, you could basically say the same about every unit, even the thor, it's also better to focus fire with thors, but it's kind of obvious that focus-firing is not intense micro.


the point is that if you target a maruader with a collosus you can hit two rows of marines as well where as if you target a marine you will not hit a second row of marines...


But that doesn't mean it's micro-intense, it's just focus firing, something every unit benefits from (the collossus maybe to a greater extent, but once you have 4+ collossi focus firing gets pretty redundant because the splash damage will be dealt anyway and at least it doesnt overlap then).
UniversalMind
Profile Joined March 2011
United States326 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-10 21:19:57
January 10 2012 21:18 GMT
#63
On January 11 2012 05:42 Tor wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
The OP suggests that there are particular game-design laws that make certain units and abilities inherently wrong regardless of their implentation. This is a mild exaggeration and typically ignores the intent of each unit design. So let's break it down one by one.

Forcefield: The current iteration of forcefield does have a negative effect on unit control, however, this can be seen, not as a problem with instantaneous creation of invincible and impassable terrain, but more to do with the fact opposing players have difficulty countering it. Once your units are trapped forcefield denies micro, however, that doesn't mean a player cannot micro against it by simply avoiding the effective range of forcefield. I wouldn't be surprised if positive gameplay interactions could be developed simply increasing the risk (slower movement speed on sentries?) or reducing the effective area of influence of the sentry (shorter cast range?).
-OP's comments on forcefield feel biased, but the OP does not suggest scrapping FF so I give him credit. OP's statement that sentries deny interaction is false since "avoid them and bait them as best you can, and hope to drain sentry energy" is an interaction.

Fungal Growth: If ever there was a law about denying movement, than fungal growth would certainly be breaking it. However, any assessment about a lack of interaction is false. It does deny micro (and doesn't really add much) so compared to forcefield it's far more difficult to create healthy gameplay around. However, as a tool designed to counter certain interactions it can be viewed as healthy. This spell has a bit of an identity crisis, does it hinder harass? nuke marines? or trap small groups of out of position units? It's probably overpowered if it can fill too many roles, however just like FF it's not inherently bad game design, it's just harder to design around.

Concussive Shells: OP's assessment is generally positive, OP generally displays bias against abilities that capitilize on player mistakes. Concussive shells do force opponents to think critically about their engagements.

Micro-less units:


The Colossus: Why is this unit microless? A moving is a symptom of overpowering unit compositions, of which the colossus can be viewed as taking part in. The fact colossus can stand on units does lead itself to deathball scenarios, however the unit encourages good micro outside of anything deathball scenario, and demands thoughtful engagements inside deathball scenario.

The Roach: The roach is a vanilla unit like any other, the only problem then that can be found is a lack of units which interact positively with the unit. Either the units that support it are ineffective, or the units that counter it dynamically do not exist. This could suggest either changing the stats of the roach, or creating more ways to interact with the roach (by adding or changing units, by changing defenders advantage etc.)

The Thor: Currently being removed, however, the concept of a slow moving unit that controls specific zones (much like the siege tank) is not in itself inherently flawed, Blizzard simply deemed the thor ineffective at fulfilling the anti-air role it was intended for.

The Pheonix: Suggesting this unit requires no micro is laughable. Shoot and move is shoot and move, you may be able add more actions, but what really matters is the attention paid towards the unit, and to micro this unit effectively full attention is still required.

The Siege Tank: Yes the tank has problems in TvP, however it's actively important in TvT and TvZ. I would agree that with the role shift of the immortal as hp tank to a damage dealer would suggest removing hardened shield, since it has no effect on most relevant units with the exception of perhaps the roach.

Question: Is there something wrong with units that can only be used in specific match-ups? I'd say 2 out of 3 is not bad.

2) Banelings, Burrow, and Detection: OP's opinions on this are preference based. Suggesting what zerg needs is an abract argument. I'd agree that burrow is an interesting mechanic. Blizzard also agrees and has put quite a bit of effort in designing units with burrow in mind. Creep spread actually turned out to be an effective way to force detection. As it stands, I imagine the reason lurkers aren't in SC2 is largely the same issues as the siegetank. They were just too fragile or ineffective.

Static Defense and the Non-Necessity of Siege: Static defence seems like one of the harder design elements to get right. Blizzard has to weigh the power of harassment, the power of cheese, the ability to turtle and the ability to control the map, when designing static defence. Too strong static defence makes turtling for too long, too easy; it makes harassment impossible; it makes cheesing too strong OR it denies any form of dynamic early game; and it allows for map control to easily gained (sort of like when zerg go mass spine crawler after they hit 200/200).

Scaling static defence is a reasonable response, and i'd agree that Blizzard hasn't quite hit the nail of static defence. However, you cannot immediately rule out using units defensively as a viable gameplay mechanic. Thors or sentries or siegetanks or infestors etc. could all be seen as fulfilling the roles of static defence.

In conclusion:

The OP's assessment that SC2 if balanced too heavily around denying interactions is not entirely accurate. SC2 units, more often than not, are designed to create and encourage interactions, some of them may have missed the mark, while some of them are probably not as bad as you'd think. Furthermore, judging by the units Blizzard presented in the HotS preview, it appears Blizzard largely has identified many of the same weaknesses the OP suggests (which kind of makes his entire post pointless).

The largest issue with OP is his belief that many of his assumptions are slightly off the mark. He assumes forcefield is bad because it denies interactions, when in fact it creates interactions and enables different strategies and counter strategies. While many of the OP's assumptions are very close to being accurate, they seem to ride on the idea there are inherent game design laws that Blizzard is breaking, when in fact these game design ideas might actually be very good for the game, if their execution could be properly balanced and they matched the intended role they were designed for.



sounds like your kinda arguing with yourself and having trouble understanding the OP at the same time

this is a very well written article and I agree with both part one and part 2
Skwid1g
Profile Joined April 2011
United States953 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-10 21:21:58
January 10 2012 21:20 GMT
#64
I agree with a lot of this, however the BW/SC2 comparisons without pointing out the same unit "flaws" in Broodwar. *cough* stasis *cough* gets annoying after a while. With that being said, I think there is a lot Blizzard could improve on in both games. These were my thoughts on most of it:

As for the colossus - not 100%. You can micro them back, target the corruptors/whatever are hitting them, target key units with them, etc. They are definitely micro-able and it makes a decent difference, it's just that they're still strong even when A-moved, which wasn't the case for something like the rivu. I'd agree that they should become more of a "seige unit" as they're kind of a walking seige tank right now, but I don't agree that they're completely A-move. With that being said I'd definitely prefer something like the reaver instead of the colossus, although I highly doubt it'll happen, as improved reaver AI would be really hard to balance.

As for tanks - What? Yes, they've lost their role vs. Toss, but not so much because tanks are bad. It's because they lack the support of goliaths/vults - I'm quite sure that if you gave me spider mines I could make mech standard vs. Toss again. And you also mention that they are "countered" by Broodlords yet fail to mention that queens in BW do the same thing, but 10x better. There is a reason why you see them in basically every high level ZvT. The tank is honestly what Blizzard should be looking at for its game design - dynamic, interesting, much better with good control, encourages macro games and space control, etc. It's the reason TvT is often macro oriented (and interesting to watch) as well as back and forth.

Roaches - Roaches are quite a boring unit, I'd agree with that statement wholeheartedly (although so were Hydras in BW) but saying that roach burrow movement is gimmicky and/or useless is just wrong - it's extremely helpful in the midgame as a way to fight against FFs. This is more a problem with FF than anything, but it's definitely still not useless.

Banelings - Burrowed banelings aren't a space control unit and were never intended to be, so I don't think you should have really brought them up. Zerg lacks a space controlling unit because Blizzard never gave them one, not because Blizzard fucked up and gave Zerg a shitty space controlling unit.

And of course, I disagree with the whole "phoenixes don't require micro" part, because they do. I don't even see how you can argue otherwise. It's not sair level micro, but phoenixes are still 5x better in the hands of a good player than a bad player, which is what we want.

I agree with your statements on FF, FG, and CS though, they definitely need to be fixed in some way. That and making stalker more like dragoons (not having to turn around to shoot) would be a really nice addition, even if they had to tweak some other things to make it work. FF would be really interesting if you could attack them to break them, FG should be buffed a good deal and turned into a projectile, I'm not really sure what Blizzard can do to "fix" CS though.

As for general unit micro - a lot of that is caused by sc2's better AI. Broodwar's rather clunky unit pathing made micro much more difficult and much more mandatory, which is why it is hard for Blizzard to implement units like the BW Dragoon or Muta, as they would be far too good with sc2's improved unit pathing. Spells without smart casting are much stronger, which means that an SC2 queen (as in the queen from BW ported to sc2) would be beyond ridiculous.I hope they figure out a way around this, but I don't see how they could do it.

Finally, a lot of these things (space controlling unit for Zerg, changes to roach, banelings being a threat while burrowed, more support for tanks in HotS hopefully making mech vs. P standard, changes to the thor, etc.) have been touched upon by Blizzard, so I think they've got a general idea of a lot of the flaws in the current game, so I'm hoping they can fix them.
NaDa/Fantasy/Zero/Soulkey pls
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
January 10 2012 21:25 GMT
#65
I'm pretty sure the reason Zerg don't have a space-control unit is because their units are generally much faster and mobile than their terran and protoss counterparts and they also have creep to see pushes coming from miles away. I think a siege unit for Zerg would be too good, because they already have the speed advantage in most cases, there most be a drawback, having the fastest units and a siege tank-like unit would be broken imo. Just my 2 cents @Skwid1g
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3811 Posts
January 10 2012 21:40 GMT
#66
Good read.
Not that I am qualified to discuss this stuff, but after watching a bit of broodwar I really miss the whole zoning of the map. (I am not a broodwar elitist, I just have sense)
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
January 10 2012 21:41 GMT
#67
complaining about interaction using force field and fungal is kinda bad. Emp allows way more interaction does it ? Force field was a sort of stasis replacement, just as many many other bw spells were remodeled into sc2, or in short they became less powerful and out-microable, for the easier to cast thing.
PDD is a good example for a more microable version of the dark swarm. Forcefields for me is a good example of a microable version of stasis, though the unnerfed version was so much closer to stasis. But i actually find forcefields have a high interaction factor, like storm for example, stay in those and your dead. Same goes for a toss clumping your army with forcefields to optimize splash. If you want to fight an army without dealing with the other army i think an rts involving micro is not something you wanna play.
Shiladie
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1631 Posts
January 10 2012 21:44 GMT
#68
Very good post. This expressed a lot of the opinions I've had about SC2 for a while now. The key factor you touched upon I think is the lack of area control in SC2, hopefully with the units coming in with HotS that will change.

I really hope they change the colossus in a major way for HotS too, but I don't think it'll happen, maybe in time for LotV...
I entirely forgot that the roach was once an interesting, dynamic unit that all fell by the wayside. I can understand it though, because blizz needed to balance for the lower levels where both people just A-move their armies, and roaches were far outperforming in those situations.

The swarm host and the shredder both have massive potential for good area control, and balanced properly I think HotS may be able to move away from the one punch kills and all-ins you're talking about, which I really hope is the case. On top of the map control, the defensive advantage needs to go up as well, so that people are more comfortable going for pure harass based strats for the first portion of the game, until siege units come out.
Fealthas
Profile Joined May 2011
607 Posts
January 10 2012 21:47 GMT
#69
I agree with what you said in OP.
Also I have noticed a huge "emphasis"(maybe?) on spell casters. Almost no army can function well without any. For example in Tvp, if the terran has emp and uses it well then protoss just gets CRUSHED. Now if terran is missing emp then protoss gets 2 storms off and you get crushed. I believe that instead of adding more units with spells blizzad should make units more microable and make spells be more of "support" spells where they do not determine the outcome of the battle but more make your units more effective if used right.
therockmanxx
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru1174 Posts
January 10 2012 21:52 GMT
#70
Dude why dont you just stab SC2 in the back !! xD
Just kidding I love yours articles
Tekken ProGamer
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
January 10 2012 21:53 GMT
#71
I like the general flavor of the article - that this game needs more options centered around controlling terrain and less options around building an army, that this game needs units with more micro (and to make the micro required cause a unit to be more rewarding than 1aing marauders, roaches or colossi), and that the lack of useful static defense is hurting the game. I agree with the general spirit that the game needs to turn more towards chess, and less towards... whatever 1a-ing armies against each other is supposed to be. However, I think some of the specific complaints are either wrong or misleading. I think the sentry and phoenix are interesting units micro-wise, and are adding to the interactions of the game.

I’d love to see protoss get a space-controlling unit. That will probably never happen, though. Expanding in any matchup as P is real scary right now.
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
January 10 2012 21:55 GMT
#72
On January 11 2012 06:53 Treehead wrote:
I’d love to see protoss get a space-controlling unit. That will probably never happen, though. Expanding in any matchup as P is real scary right now.


The collossus is basically a mobile siege tank?
GleaM
Profile Joined June 2011
United States207 Posts
January 10 2012 22:01 GMT
#73
On January 11 2012 03:37 LanZ wrote:
A really nice thread you wrote.

As for the 111, you can't blame a build order to make a badly designed unit become good.

Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 03:46 GleaM wrote:
On January 11 2012 03:37 LanZ wrote:
A really nice thread you wrote.

As for the 111, you can't blame a build order to make a badly designed unit become good.


OP mentioned nothing about the design of the unit, just the design of the surrounding game. If you're gonna comment on other people's posts, please know what you're talking about.


Edit: Oh, my bad, maybe I worded it differently from what I was thinking, hell I can't even comprehend how I wrote badly designed, I just got riled up when people blame a unit for a build order being what it is. Without actually looking at it from another perspective.

Now that my mind is clear, my point is, it's not the tank that's badly designed, it's more of how easy it gets countered from what the OP says, that's making it look bad in my eyes when compared to the BW counterpart being way stronger. Through the patches, that decreased the tank's usefulness. Just my opinion on it.

BUT I still stand by my point that I don't think the tank is to blame for the 1-1-1 being good.

I find it oddly similar to the modern mech switch in BW TvZ, only it's in the early game for SC2 TvP. It's hard to handle that many marines + a few tanks, and also a banshee disrupting your economy.


Not that this is having to do with the game development post, (because I don't really like so I won't just flame away at it) but its very hard to get to the tech that counters tanks pretty well. Lategame, sure. Immortals and Colossus and air and gateway upgrades are wonderful 160 on 160. But at 8-12 minutes (depending on what T all-in is coming) its challenging to get out the units necessary to mitigate the tanks. That's why the 1-1-1 is good. Oh... and marines good unit ^_^
Tehweenus
Profile Joined December 2011
United States27 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-10 22:06:39
January 10 2012 22:06 GMT
#74
I disagree with some of the criticism of P's juggernauts.
The entire race is balanced around the sentry to mitigate the strength of FF. Early game, half decent control is required to stay alive, and should you lose a single army or even a chunk within the first 15 minutes of the game you are damned to failure.
This is neglecting that despite the unit's importance to P against a lot of army compositions, there are so many units that will outright negate or kill it. Baneling drops are critically underused against Sentry focused mid game armies, and the Infestor outright nullifies it.

Secondly, the Colossus is obviously a very blunt unit, and most especially so against Zerg. Regardless, the unit is so important that it will take up a hotkey spot of its own, for the purpose of moving it away from Vikings or hyper aggressive roaches. To have to add those extra movements in the middle of a battle where already you need to be laying down good FF's and managing your Blink CD's -- It's not super ridiculous, but it really forces P to watch the battle, and limits our ability to macro or tech during any sort of engagement.
Spekulatius
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2413 Posts
January 10 2012 22:11 GMT
#75
Very hard to disagree with the OP's two posts.

What I'd like to add is the overimportance of allround units. The marine/marauder, the roach and the stalker are units that can be used against basically everything that is thrown against them, apart from special builds (sky terran vs roaches obviously). Same goes for the queen which is absolutely necessary for multiple purposes (antiair, transfuse, creep, inject) so that a zerg simply can't live without one. Or the orbital command which is economy booster and early detection at the same time, both vital to most strategies you're going up against.

What that leads to is staleness. Staleness of builds, staleness of unit compositions (having the "one best unit composition" is a stupid idea to begin with) and the lack of reaction needed to certain enemy builds. Diversions from these builds are only used to enable extreme cheese (heavy rax play skipping OC) or defending against it (get hydras against a 2-stargate opener just to throw them away later when colossi arrive). There's so much stuff that is standard (because it's unfortunately the one most efficient way to play), completely nullifying strategic diversity.

+ Show Spoiler [BW rant] +
The unit I miss the most is the scourge actually. Fucking useless against most other units + buildings, extremely high risk-reward ratio (scouting or sniping vessels/mutas/drops). Defensive or offensive use. Build scarcely to only prevent drops or mass them to fight for air superiority. Now that's a cool unit with a specific use. Not a unit that you mass, upgrade and then win the game.
Always smile~
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
January 10 2012 22:11 GMT
#76
On January 11 2012 06:15 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 06:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
On January 11 2012 06:03 Spicy_Curry wrote:
On January 11 2012 05:57 ChaosTerran wrote:
On January 11 2012 05:42 Tor wrote:


The Colossus: Why is this unit microless? A moving is a symptom of overpowering unit compositions, of which the colossus can be viewed as taking part in. The fact colossus can stand on units does lead itself to deathball scenarios, however the unit encourages good micro outside of anything deathball scenario, and demands thoughtful engagements inside deathball scenario.


You can't be serious....

The collossus takes absolutely no micro at all, in fact it's actually most effective when just a-moved into the opponent's army. and the fact that the collossus can stand on top of other units makes it even easier to 'micro' because it doesn't matter if it's poorly positioned inside the protoss army pre-battle because it can just reposition itself once it's a moved without any micro being required by the player.

With that being said, I almost agree with everything the OP said and I would definitely add chargelots to the units that require no micro. If there is one unit in this game that requires absolutely no skill to use it definitely is the chargelot.


actually if you micro the collosus its splash increases.

Not exact numbers but you get the idea
EX: target a marine= the splash width is 1
EX: target a maruader= splash width is 2


Focus-firing is standard with pretty much every unit, but since focus fire can be shift-queued it doesn't really classifiy is micro intense, you could basically say the same about every unit, even the thor, it's also better to focus fire with thors, but it's kind of obvious that focus-firing is not intense micro.


the point is that if you target a maruader with a collosus you can hit two rows of marines as well where as if you target a marine you will not hit a second row of marines...


this is new to me..are you sure it's true? Or even better have some video proof or anything?
Millard
Profile Joined June 2011
United States11 Posts
January 10 2012 22:19 GMT
#77
Making the post completely negative reduces a lot of legitimacy from the OP. I agree with some things you say (all have been said before), but I think its appropriate in threads like these to include the things SC2 does well, which are more numerous than the problems you've stated.
If men would observe realities only, life, to compare it with such things as we know, would be like a fairy tale.
Svenskfella
Profile Joined October 2010
Spain26 Posts
January 10 2012 22:32 GMT
#78
On January 11 2012 07:19 Millard wrote:
Making the post completely negative reduces a lot of legitimacy from the OP. I agree with some things you say (all have been said before), but I think its appropriate in threads like these to include the things SC2 does well, which are more numerous than the problems you've stated.


It's not like SC2 is a kid that you can't be too harsh with him, I don't see why the OP should add what SC2 does well, we need to point out what's wrong so it gets fixed and we get a better game.
Why did he put the trumpets in?
Streltsy
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada98 Posts
January 10 2012 22:33 GMT
#79
Great post, even is a lot of this stuff has been touched on before.
Especially the part about lack of zoning/terrain control units and the one-side units like infestor/sentry/marauder/collosus. It's not about balance or anything like that at all, these types of units are just shitty to play against.
Reminds of the Brits in CoH; they were indisputably the weakest race in 1v1 back when I played, but universally hated non-the-less because digging them out of trenches was such a bother. Once they were in a trench there was not much to be done short of getting counter units. Although that game had a lot bad rock-paper-scissor relationships in general, the trenches were particularly bad.
Oreo7
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1647 Posts
January 10 2012 22:43 GMT
#80
I don't think collosi are microless, I think majority of players just dont use them well. Look at hero warp prism micro for example!

Target firing clumps etc is still under valued, so is spreading units. We'll see what happens as the game progresses, but I'd remind you all, at this point in BW history people were still debating whether hotkeys were good to use or not!
Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet
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