The Philosophy of Design: Part 2 - Unit Design - Page 4
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robih
Austria1086 Posts
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ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
On January 11 2012 06:15 Spicy_Curry wrote: the point is that if you target a maruader with a collosus you can hit two rows of marines as well where as if you target a marine you will not hit a second row of marines... But that doesn't mean it's micro-intense, it's just focus firing, something every unit benefits from (the collossus maybe to a greater extent, but once you have 4+ collossi focus firing gets pretty redundant because the splash damage will be dealt anyway and at least it doesnt overlap then). | ||
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UniversalMind
United States326 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:42 Tor wrote: + Show Spoiler + The OP suggests that there are particular game-design laws that make certain units and abilities inherently wrong regardless of their implentation. This is a mild exaggeration and typically ignores the intent of each unit design. So let's break it down one by one. Forcefield: The current iteration of forcefield does have a negative effect on unit control, however, this can be seen, not as a problem with instantaneous creation of invincible and impassable terrain, but more to do with the fact opposing players have difficulty countering it. Once your units are trapped forcefield denies micro, however, that doesn't mean a player cannot micro against it by simply avoiding the effective range of forcefield. I wouldn't be surprised if positive gameplay interactions could be developed simply increasing the risk (slower movement speed on sentries?) or reducing the effective area of influence of the sentry (shorter cast range?). -OP's comments on forcefield feel biased, but the OP does not suggest scrapping FF so I give him credit. OP's statement that sentries deny interaction is false since "avoid them and bait them as best you can, and hope to drain sentry energy" is an interaction. Fungal Growth: If ever there was a law about denying movement, than fungal growth would certainly be breaking it. However, any assessment about a lack of interaction is false. It does deny micro (and doesn't really add much) so compared to forcefield it's far more difficult to create healthy gameplay around. However, as a tool designed to counter certain interactions it can be viewed as healthy. This spell has a bit of an identity crisis, does it hinder harass? nuke marines? or trap small groups of out of position units? It's probably overpowered if it can fill too many roles, however just like FF it's not inherently bad game design, it's just harder to design around. Concussive Shells: OP's assessment is generally positive, OP generally displays bias against abilities that capitilize on player mistakes. Concussive shells do force opponents to think critically about their engagements. Micro-less units: The Colossus: Why is this unit microless? A moving is a symptom of overpowering unit compositions, of which the colossus can be viewed as taking part in. The fact colossus can stand on units does lead itself to deathball scenarios, however the unit encourages good micro outside of anything deathball scenario, and demands thoughtful engagements inside deathball scenario. The Roach: The roach is a vanilla unit like any other, the only problem then that can be found is a lack of units which interact positively with the unit. Either the units that support it are ineffective, or the units that counter it dynamically do not exist. This could suggest either changing the stats of the roach, or creating more ways to interact with the roach (by adding or changing units, by changing defenders advantage etc.) The Thor: Currently being removed, however, the concept of a slow moving unit that controls specific zones (much like the siege tank) is not in itself inherently flawed, Blizzard simply deemed the thor ineffective at fulfilling the anti-air role it was intended for. The Pheonix: Suggesting this unit requires no micro is laughable. Shoot and move is shoot and move, you may be able add more actions, but what really matters is the attention paid towards the unit, and to micro this unit effectively full attention is still required. The Siege Tank: Yes the tank has problems in TvP, however it's actively important in TvT and TvZ. I would agree that with the role shift of the immortal as hp tank to a damage dealer would suggest removing hardened shield, since it has no effect on most relevant units with the exception of perhaps the roach. Question: Is there something wrong with units that can only be used in specific match-ups? I'd say 2 out of 3 is not bad. 2) Banelings, Burrow, and Detection: OP's opinions on this are preference based. Suggesting what zerg needs is an abract argument. I'd agree that burrow is an interesting mechanic. Blizzard also agrees and has put quite a bit of effort in designing units with burrow in mind. Creep spread actually turned out to be an effective way to force detection. As it stands, I imagine the reason lurkers aren't in SC2 is largely the same issues as the siegetank. They were just too fragile or ineffective. Static Defense and the Non-Necessity of Siege: Static defence seems like one of the harder design elements to get right. Blizzard has to weigh the power of harassment, the power of cheese, the ability to turtle and the ability to control the map, when designing static defence. Too strong static defence makes turtling for too long, too easy; it makes harassment impossible; it makes cheesing too strong OR it denies any form of dynamic early game; and it allows for map control to easily gained (sort of like when zerg go mass spine crawler after they hit 200/200). Scaling static defence is a reasonable response, and i'd agree that Blizzard hasn't quite hit the nail of static defence. However, you cannot immediately rule out using units defensively as a viable gameplay mechanic. Thors or sentries or siegetanks or infestors etc. could all be seen as fulfilling the roles of static defence. In conclusion: The OP's assessment that SC2 if balanced too heavily around denying interactions is not entirely accurate. SC2 units, more often than not, are designed to create and encourage interactions, some of them may have missed the mark, while some of them are probably not as bad as you'd think. Furthermore, judging by the units Blizzard presented in the HotS preview, it appears Blizzard largely has identified many of the same weaknesses the OP suggests (which kind of makes his entire post pointless). The largest issue with OP is his belief that many of his assumptions are slightly off the mark. He assumes forcefield is bad because it denies interactions, when in fact it creates interactions and enables different strategies and counter strategies. While many of the OP's assumptions are very close to being accurate, they seem to ride on the idea there are inherent game design laws that Blizzard is breaking, when in fact these game design ideas might actually be very good for the game, if their execution could be properly balanced and they matched the intended role they were designed for. sounds like your kinda arguing with yourself and having trouble understanding the OP at the same time this is a very well written article and I agree with both part one and part 2 | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
As for the colossus - not 100%. You can micro them back, target the corruptors/whatever are hitting them, target key units with them, etc. They are definitely micro-able and it makes a decent difference, it's just that they're still strong even when A-moved, which wasn't the case for something like the rivu. I'd agree that they should become more of a "seige unit" as they're kind of a walking seige tank right now, but I don't agree that they're completely A-move. With that being said I'd definitely prefer something like the reaver instead of the colossus, although I highly doubt it'll happen, as improved reaver AI would be really hard to balance. As for tanks - What? Yes, they've lost their role vs. Toss, but not so much because tanks are bad. It's because they lack the support of goliaths/vults - I'm quite sure that if you gave me spider mines I could make mech standard vs. Toss again. And you also mention that they are "countered" by Broodlords yet fail to mention that queens in BW do the same thing, but 10x better. There is a reason why you see them in basically every high level ZvT. The tank is honestly what Blizzard should be looking at for its game design - dynamic, interesting, much better with good control, encourages macro games and space control, etc. It's the reason TvT is often macro oriented (and interesting to watch) as well as back and forth. Roaches - Roaches are quite a boring unit, I'd agree with that statement wholeheartedly (although so were Hydras in BW) but saying that roach burrow movement is gimmicky and/or useless is just wrong - it's extremely helpful in the midgame as a way to fight against FFs. This is more a problem with FF than anything, but it's definitely still not useless. Banelings - Burrowed banelings aren't a space control unit and were never intended to be, so I don't think you should have really brought them up. Zerg lacks a space controlling unit because Blizzard never gave them one, not because Blizzard fucked up and gave Zerg a shitty space controlling unit. And of course, I disagree with the whole "phoenixes don't require micro" part, because they do. I don't even see how you can argue otherwise. It's not sair level micro, but phoenixes are still 5x better in the hands of a good player than a bad player, which is what we want. I agree with your statements on FF, FG, and CS though, they definitely need to be fixed in some way. That and making stalker more like dragoons (not having to turn around to shoot) would be a really nice addition, even if they had to tweak some other things to make it work. FF would be really interesting if you could attack them to break them, FG should be buffed a good deal and turned into a projectile, I'm not really sure what Blizzard can do to "fix" CS though. As for general unit micro - a lot of that is caused by sc2's better AI. Broodwar's rather clunky unit pathing made micro much more difficult and much more mandatory, which is why it is hard for Blizzard to implement units like the BW Dragoon or Muta, as they would be far too good with sc2's improved unit pathing. Spells without smart casting are much stronger, which means that an SC2 queen (as in the queen from BW ported to sc2) would be beyond ridiculous.I hope they figure out a way around this, but I don't see how they could do it. Finally, a lot of these things (space controlling unit for Zerg, changes to roach, banelings being a threat while burrowed, more support for tanks in HotS hopefully making mech vs. P standard, changes to the thor, etc.) have been touched upon by Blizzard, so I think they've got a general idea of a lot of the flaws in the current game, so I'm hoping they can fix them. | ||
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ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
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Grovbolle
Denmark3811 Posts
Not that I am qualified to discuss this stuff, but after watching a bit of broodwar I really miss the whole zoning of the map. (I am not a broodwar elitist, I just have sense) | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
PDD is a good example for a more microable version of the dark swarm. Forcefields for me is a good example of a microable version of stasis, though the unnerfed version was so much closer to stasis. But i actually find forcefields have a high interaction factor, like storm for example, stay in those and your dead. Same goes for a toss clumping your army with forcefields to optimize splash. If you want to fight an army without dealing with the other army i think an rts involving micro is not something you wanna play. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
I really hope they change the colossus in a major way for HotS too, but I don't think it'll happen, maybe in time for LotV... I entirely forgot that the roach was once an interesting, dynamic unit that all fell by the wayside. I can understand it though, because blizz needed to balance for the lower levels where both people just A-move their armies, and roaches were far outperforming in those situations. The swarm host and the shredder both have massive potential for good area control, and balanced properly I think HotS may be able to move away from the one punch kills and all-ins you're talking about, which I really hope is the case. On top of the map control, the defensive advantage needs to go up as well, so that people are more comfortable going for pure harass based strats for the first portion of the game, until siege units come out. | ||
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Fealthas
607 Posts
Also I have noticed a huge "emphasis"(maybe?) on spell casters. Almost no army can function well without any. For example in Tvp, if the terran has emp and uses it well then protoss just gets CRUSHED. Now if terran is missing emp then protoss gets 2 storms off and you get crushed. I believe that instead of adding more units with spells blizzad should make units more microable and make spells be more of "support" spells where they do not determine the outcome of the battle but more make your units more effective if used right. | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
Just kidding I love yours articles | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
I’d love to see protoss get a space-controlling unit. That will probably never happen, though. Expanding in any matchup as P is real scary right now. | ||
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ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
On January 11 2012 06:53 Treehead wrote: I’d love to see protoss get a space-controlling unit. That will probably never happen, though. Expanding in any matchup as P is real scary right now. The collossus is basically a mobile siege tank? | ||
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GleaM
United States207 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:37 LanZ wrote: A really nice thread you wrote. As for the 111, you can't blame a build order to make a badly designed unit become good. Edit: Oh, my bad, maybe I worded it differently from what I was thinking, hell I can't even comprehend how I wrote badly designed, I just got riled up when people blame a unit for a build order being what it is. Without actually looking at it from another perspective. Now that my mind is clear, my point is, it's not the tank that's badly designed, it's more of how easy it gets countered from what the OP says, that's making it look bad in my eyes when compared to the BW counterpart being way stronger. Through the patches, that decreased the tank's usefulness. Just my opinion on it. BUT I still stand by my point that I don't think the tank is to blame for the 1-1-1 being good. I find it oddly similar to the modern mech switch in BW TvZ, only it's in the early game for SC2 TvP. It's hard to handle that many marines + a few tanks, and also a banshee disrupting your economy. Not that this is having to do with the game development post, (because I don't really like so I won't just flame away at it) but its very hard to get to the tech that counters tanks pretty well. Lategame, sure. Immortals and Colossus and air and gateway upgrades are wonderful 160 on 160. But at 8-12 minutes (depending on what T all-in is coming) its challenging to get out the units necessary to mitigate the tanks. That's why the 1-1-1 is good. Oh... and marines good unit ^_^ | ||
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Tehweenus
United States27 Posts
The entire race is balanced around the sentry to mitigate the strength of FF. Early game, half decent control is required to stay alive, and should you lose a single army or even a chunk within the first 15 minutes of the game you are damned to failure. This is neglecting that despite the unit's importance to P against a lot of army compositions, there are so many units that will outright negate or kill it. Baneling drops are critically underused against Sentry focused mid game armies, and the Infestor outright nullifies it. Secondly, the Colossus is obviously a very blunt unit, and most especially so against Zerg. Regardless, the unit is so important that it will take up a hotkey spot of its own, for the purpose of moving it away from Vikings or hyper aggressive roaches. To have to add those extra movements in the middle of a battle where already you need to be laying down good FF's and managing your Blink CD's -- It's not super ridiculous, but it really forces P to watch the battle, and limits our ability to macro or tech during any sort of engagement. | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
What I'd like to add is the overimportance of allround units. The marine/marauder, the roach and the stalker are units that can be used against basically everything that is thrown against them, apart from special builds (sky terran vs roaches obviously). Same goes for the queen which is absolutely necessary for multiple purposes (antiair, transfuse, creep, inject) so that a zerg simply can't live without one. Or the orbital command which is economy booster and early detection at the same time, both vital to most strategies you're going up against. What that leads to is staleness. Staleness of builds, staleness of unit compositions (having the "one best unit composition" is a stupid idea to begin with) and the lack of reaction needed to certain enemy builds. Diversions from these builds are only used to enable extreme cheese (heavy rax play skipping OC) or defending against it (get hydras against a 2-stargate opener just to throw them away later when colossi arrive). There's so much stuff that is standard (because it's unfortunately the one most efficient way to play), completely nullifying strategic diversity. + Show Spoiler [BW rant] + The unit I miss the most is the scourge actually. Fucking useless against most other units + buildings, extremely high risk-reward ratio (scouting or sniping vessels/mutas/drops). Defensive or offensive use. Build scarcely to only prevent drops or mass them to fight for air superiority. Now that's a cool unit with a specific use. Not a unit that you mass, upgrade and then win the game. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On January 11 2012 06:15 Spicy_Curry wrote: the point is that if you target a maruader with a collosus you can hit two rows of marines as well where as if you target a marine you will not hit a second row of marines... this is new to me..are you sure it's true? Or even better have some video proof or anything? | ||
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Millard
United States11 Posts
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Svenskfella
Spain26 Posts
On January 11 2012 07:19 Millard wrote: Making the post completely negative reduces a lot of legitimacy from the OP. I agree with some things you say (all have been said before), but I think its appropriate in threads like these to include the things SC2 does well, which are more numerous than the problems you've stated. It's not like SC2 is a kid that you can't be too harsh with him, I don't see why the OP should add what SC2 does well, we need to point out what's wrong so it gets fixed and we get a better game. | ||
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Streltsy
Canada98 Posts
Especially the part about lack of zoning/terrain control units and the one-side units like infestor/sentry/marauder/collosus. It's not about balance or anything like that at all, these types of units are just shitty to play against. Reminds of the Brits in CoH; they were indisputably the weakest race in 1v1 back when I played, but universally hated non-the-less because digging them out of trenches was such a bother. Once they were in a trench there was not much to be done short of getting counter units. Although that game had a lot bad rock-paper-scissor relationships in general, the trenches were particularly bad. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
Target firing clumps etc is still under valued, so is spreading units. We'll see what happens as the game progresses, but I'd remind you all, at this point in BW history people were still debating whether hotkeys were good to use or not! | ||
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