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Searched a bit around the forum and didn't find anything about this build. Was watching ForGG's stream earlier and noticed that he was practicing this build apparently as he opened the same way every game vs Z unless he was 2 rax/bunkering.
Build goes something along the lines of hellion expand/harass standard etc etc into 2+ cloak banshee.
If that doesn't do the trick, follow up with blue flame hellions + 4 thors + scv pull all in.
Seen zerg after zerg fall to this strategy, the only time I've seen it fail so far was when oGsCezanne (a teammate) blind countered with spore crawlers and mass queens when all he had scouted were hellions.
*Edit
That was dumb of me, forgot to post my question. The question is how do you stop this as zerg (leaving out blind countering and luck)? Being a relatively new starcraft player myself, this build looked scary good. Drones and lings die to the hellions, queens to the cloak banshees, and muta's if they even get out in time to the thors.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37120 Posts
A) Okay, then what is your question?
B) Normally I would recommend the SQSA thread, but again I do not see a question
C) Please read the Strategy Forum Guidelines
SC2 Strategy Forum Guidelines
D) Welcome to TL!
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It was really cool because he sends in 4 hellions so you think it's reactor hellion, and then has 2 banshees with cloak come in. You have to scout that second gas either with an overlord or drone, and realize that if he's taking 2 gas that early it's a tech build. So he's either 1/1/1'ing you or doing some kind of dumb siege expand (which no one should do TvZ because it isn't economical).
Basically you need to see it, and drop an evo chamber OR get a quick lair (I would go with Evo). Wall off your natural to block the hellions (So use the evo + queen + spines). I would recommend getting queens to deal with the banshees and hellions to hold off the 1/1/1 aggression. He expands immediately behind this from what I've seen, but if he does that all-in, you need to scout it and go lingbling or some roach composition afaik. I can't exactly comment because I didn't see the zergs hold it off (They just left immediately lol)
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On December 09 2011 14:15 shishy wrote:
It was really cool because he sends in 4 hellions so you think it's reactor hellion
Of course, since it is a Reactor Hellion. Just because the follow-up includes cloaked Banshees does not change the opening.
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ForGG was only playing on masters, so you won't find any tip-top level decision making there. Except for ZvZs, zergs have begun going for faster evo chambers and lair tech as of late, to prevent banshees and DTs. to be perfectly honest, ForGG looked like he was using a delayed 2port banshee build, which probably caught a lot of the zergs offguard because of the expo. Sending in an overlord would be killer, as im pretty sure ForGG only had 2-3 marines the entire game, so no way to deny the scout.
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On December 09 2011 14:28 aviator116 wrote:
ForGG was only playing on masters, so you won't find any tip-top level decision making there. Except for ZvZs, zergs have begun going for faster evo chambers and lair tech as of late, to prevent banshees and DTs. to be perfectly honest, ForGG looked like he was using a delayed 2port banshee build
1) He played and won IdrA (and, I guess, several other GM Zergs) with that strategy, so it may work beyond "average Master level".
2) It's not 2-port banshee, it's 2 cloaked Banshees out of one Starport after going the regular Reactor Hellion.
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On December 09 2011 14:28 aviator116 wrote:
ForGG was only playing on masters, so you won't find any tip-top level decision making there. Except for ZvZs, zergs have begun going for faster evo chambers and lair tech as of late, to prevent banshees and DTs. to be perfectly honest, ForGG looked like he was using a delayed 2port banshee build, which probably caught a lot of the zergs offguard because of the expo. Sending in an overlord would be killer, as im pretty sure ForGG only had 2-3 marines the entire game, so no way to deny the scout.
Actually he's rank 1 masters routinely faced against GMs, in fact he's still streaming and he's on a rampage current at 10-1 or something on the Korean ladder. 30 minutes ago he was matched up with oGs.TOP and curb stomped him making him look like a diamond scrub.
As for the actual question, I've been watching his stream too and I think blind countering it is the only option really, given no sneaky lings/overlords gets into the T base because at those stages of the game, they shouldn't be able to. Another option would be some sort of super fast ling/bling bust aimed at busting down the terran wall when the hellion numbers are low, overwhelming hellions with slings and killing marines/scvs with blings.
Which makes me to consider the possibility that TvZ might become heavily T favored in the very near future once other top Terran catch up in executing the build and perhaps even making scarier variations. It's just not fair for the zerg player to be totally blind and forced to make the guess between "is my T opponent making banshees after hellions? Or is he making an expanding command center in base?", where the effect of guessing wrong is dying to banshees or slipping seriously behind economically from making evo + spores, as opposed to the effect of guessing right is merely being on equal footing with the opponent. That seems like a fundamental design flaw to me.
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On December 09 2011 14:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:28 aviator116 wrote:
ForGG was only playing on masters, so you won't find any tip-top level decision making there. Except for ZvZs, zergs have begun going for faster evo chambers and lair tech as of late, to prevent banshees and DTs. to be perfectly honest, ForGG looked like he was using a delayed 2port banshee build 1) He played and won IdrA (and, I guess, several other GM Zergs) with that strategy, so it may work beyond "average Master level". 2) It's not 2-port banshee, it's 2 cloaked Banshees out of one Starport after going the regular Reactor Hellion.
my bad, i didn't see his ranking, just the master symbol, and i also didn't see exactly how many starports he did, just thought one game he was producing 2 at a time.
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On December 09 2011 14:41 HardMacro wrote:
Which makes me to consider the possibility that TvZ might become heavily T favored in the very near future once other top Terran catch up in executing the build and perhaps even making scarier variations. It's just not fair for the zerg player to be totally blind and forced to make the guess between "is my T opponent making banshees after hellions? Or is he making an expanding command center in base?", where the effect of guessing wrong is dying to banshees or slipping seriously behind economically from making evo + spores, as opposed to the effect of guessing right is merely being on equal footing with the opponent. That seems like a fundamental design flaw to me.
Or you could just build an early and well-placed Evolution Chamber to defend against Hellions raids, and get a third Queen for extra safety and creep spread (and the possibility to wall off). There you go, for 225 mineral which won't even be wasted if he does not go for Banshee play, you will be able to resist those kinds of follow-ups.
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On December 09 2011 14:41 HardMacro wrote:
Which makes me to consider the possibility that TvZ might become heavily T favored in the very near future once other top Terran catch up in executing the build and perhaps even making scarier variations. It's just not fair for the zerg player to be totally blind and forced to make the guess between "is my T opponent making banshees after hellions? Or is he making an expanding command center in base?", where the effect of guessing wrong is dying to banshees or slipping seriously behind economically from making evo + spores, as opposed to the effect of guessing right is merely being on equal footing with the opponent. That seems like a fundamental design flaw to me.
QQ is for the bnet forums.
just think about this: if youre a terran, and use this strat, you ALWAYS run the risk of being roach-rushed or baneling busted, because contrary to popular belief, banshees and hellions cant kill roaches by themselves. it's just not fair for the terran player to be totally blind and forced to make the guess between "is my Z opponent making roaches/banelings after zerglings? or is he tech-switching/expanding?" where the effect of guessing wrong is dying to roach/bling bust or slipping seriously behind economically or techwise from making extra bunkers and cutting into scvs production, as oppposed to the effect of guessing right is merely being on equal footing with the opponent. that seems like a fundanmental design flaw to me.
scout. all the pros do it. so should you.
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On December 09 2011 14:49 TheDwf wrote:
Or you could just build an early and well-placed Evolution Chamber to defend against Hellions raids, and get a third Queen for extra safety and creep spread (and the possibility to wall off). There you go, for 225 mineral which won't even be wasted if he does not go for Banshee play, you will be able to resist those kinds of follow-ups.
The problem I see here is the spores will have to be up almost preemptively for the zerg to avoid taking unacceptable damage from the banshee followup. The zergs I saw all threw up panic spores (if they had the evo chamber) in response to the cloak banshees but often by the time the spores were up, the banshee's had killed 2-3 queens, and any number of drones.
Also I noticed that ForGG switches between the hellions and banshees. 4 hellions to start into 2 banshee into 6-8 hellions into blue flame/medivac or blueflame/thor all in. So hard to predict and counter unless I'm missing something?
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Um, could someone ACTUALLY post the build he's using?? Hard to have a discussion when we actually have no idea of what the real build is.
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Why can't people just accept the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE that you need the same level of execution to defend that? Why do people always ask "hey, what build order do I have to do and how many workers should I make and how many units should I make to defend against this?" when what forgg does is a very technical rush that is heavily based on micro.
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On December 09 2011 14:55 lambac0re wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:49 TheDwf wrote:
Or you could just build an early and well-placed Evolution Chamber to defend against Hellions raids, and get a third Queen for extra safety and creep spread (and the possibility to wall off). There you go, for 225 mineral which won't even be wasted if he does not go for Banshee play, you will be able to resist those kinds of follow-ups.
The problem I see here is the spores will have to be up almost preemptively for the zerg to avoid taking unacceptable damage from the banshee followup. The zergs I saw all threw up panic spores (if they had the evo chamber) in response to the cloak banshees but often by the time the spores were up, the banshee's had killed 2-3 queens, and any number of drones. Also I noticed that ForGG switches between the hellions and banshees. 4 hellions to start into 2 banshee into 6-8 hellions into blue flame/medivac or blueflame/thor all in. So hard to predict and counter unless I'm missing something?
once again. scout. scout for those gases, which isnt something that i saw the zergs do. they saw the CC, and thought it would be standard play. so scout his main a while when the CC is finishing. if you have to, send in two overlords from different directions. it may seem like a waste, but really <30 clicks is a good price to pay for scouting.
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On December 09 2011 14:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Why can't people just accept the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE that you need the same level of execution to defend that? Why do people always ask "hey, what build order do I have to do and how many workers should I make and how many units should I make to defend against this?" when what forgg does is a very technical rush that is heavily based on micro.
also this
without micro, this build is dead.
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On December 09 2011 14:55 lambac0re wrote:
The problem I see here is the spores will have to be up almost preemptively for the zerg to avoid taking unacceptable damage from the banshee followup. The zergs I saw all thew up panic spores (if they had the evo chamber) in response to the cloak banshees but often by the time the spores were up, the banshee's had killed 2-3 queens, and any number of drones.
Also I noticed that ForGG switches between the hellions and banshees. 4 hellions to start into 2 banshee into 6-8 hellions into blue flame/medivac or blueflame/thor all in. So hard to predict and counter unless I'm missing something?
Banshee movespeed : 2,75
Drone movespeed : 2,81
Queen movespeed on creep : 0,94 + 1,56 = 2,50
Spore build time : 30 sec
Looks like you can run a bit in order to minimize damages. Besides, the Terran has a later expand because of the Banshee follow-up, so even if you lose some stuff it may end up even.
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On December 09 2011 15:01 aviator116 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 14:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Why can't people just accept the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE that you need the same level of execution to defend that? Why do people always ask "hey, what build order do I have to do and how many workers should I make and how many units should I make to defend against this?" when what forgg does is a very technical rush that is heavily based on micro. also this without micro, this build is dead.
I hear you. But the question is still valid I believe. Because while I certainly lack the execution to defend such a push from ForGG, I think I would have a reasonable chance against another ladder nub my level attempting the same build if I had a solid counter ready based from what I can scout.
Certainly the GM players that ForGG have been playing don't lack in execution? For what I hear players like Idra are incredibly mechanical etc etc.
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What is sounds like is a 1/1/1 with a reactor build on the rax, swapped to the factory while a tech lab is built on the barracks to switch with the starport, as for the followup i am unsure exactly what goes on but in regards to the first.
1. to deal with the hellions you can go speedling with a spine + sim city [use macro hatch, evo chamber and spine placement]
this should deal with hellion harass.
2. For the banshees, i usually get a early 3rd queen for creep spread so there is no reason you cannot make queens on reaction to defend. After seeing a late expansion (after 7:00) i would immediately get suspicious. Throwing down 1 spore in each base is not a bad idea if you are worried because a terran on 1 base up to 7 minutes wont be way ahead if you toss down 2 spores. Now after confirming banshee production you can add more spores and queens on reaction.
Idk how he follows it up so no more comments from me.
It all comes down to personal execution though. This build doesnt sound new but with the level of execution that he has + macro it can seem intimidating but remember, if your new to the game so will your opponent and the attack WILL be later/not as well controlled/supported with less macro.
Also remember, knowing how to defend doesnt = 100% defense. Even against a familiar cheese, when two skillfull players go at it, alot can happen due to a couple seeminly minor things that can swing the fight so just cause irda lost on ladder to it doesnt mean he/other pros could never defend it. It simply means it is a viable option that can fail and suceed and depending on individuals execution defending/attacking
On December 09 2011 15:09 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 15:04 lambac0re wrote:
Certainly the GM players that ForGG have been playing don't lack in execution? For what I hear players like Idra are incredibly mechanical etc etc. IdrA left every game against fOrGG without even trying... (Except for the Antiga game, maybe, but I did not see it entirely.)
What this guy said, dont take ladder play among pros to seriously. They arnt exactly giving it their 100% all day every day
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On December 09 2011 15:04 lambac0re wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 15:01 aviator116 wrote:On December 09 2011 14:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Why can't people just accept the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE that you need the same level of execution to defend that? Why do people always ask "hey, what build order do I have to do and how many workers should I make and how many units should I make to defend against this?" when what forgg does is a very technical rush that is heavily based on micro. also this without micro, this build is dead. I hear you. But the question is still valid I believe. Because while I certainly lack the execution to defend such a push from ForGG, I think I would have a reasonable chance against another ladder nub my level attempting the same build if I had a solid counter ready based from what I can scout. Certainly the GM players that ForGG have been playing don't lack in execution? For what I hear players like Idra are incredibly mechanical etc etc.
then they execute it badly and you don't need to micro super brilliantly to stop it.
compared to forgg most korean sc2 pros have diamond level mechanics...
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On December 09 2011 15:04 lambac0re wrote:
Certainly the GM players that ForGG have been playing don't lack in execution? For what I hear players like Idra are incredibly mechanical etc etc.
IdrA left every game against fOrGG without even trying... (Except for the Antiga game, maybe, but I did not see it entirely.)
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EPT
